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I'm going to be very blunt. You are being played. You are taking the word of two Absolute Total liars, and saying they are being honest.

You know that he is trying to reconcile his wife because of what was said in his email??? Come on man. He knew damn well you were going to read that. He's trying to smooth things over with his wife. So of course he's going to write what he wrote. It doesn't mean the affair isn't continuing.

She's telling him she misses him. Come on! She sees the pain you're in, and on the work trip with him, she tells him she misses him.

You need to wake up. I get it, we all get it. But what you are doing is going to cause you further pain down the road. She sees you as weak, and she is taking full advantage of that. Again, the Betrayed husbands who take a strong stance after D-Day, have the most successful chance at reconciliation. You are trying to nice her back.

She had an affair. She lied to for a very long time. You cannot trust what she has to say. She wiped the phone clean man!! She wiped the phone clean for a reason. We keep telling you and you keep ignoring us. I don't really know what else to say. Honestly, no one here is blasting you. We all see you driving towards the edge of the cliff, and we are all trying to save you. We are trying to help you. We know what you're doing and where it is going. And we want to stop that. We want you to be able to save your marriage. And the route you are taking, won't do it. It's going to get you another D-Day. Whether with this other man, or a new one.

I just caught this:

She was on a work trip (him there), they took separate Uber's to the hotel but briefly talked at the airport. Saying how weird it is that they aren't friends and would usually be laughing together.

Oh my God. Seriously?! They went on another trip! Nothing happened? Really? You’re dealing with a woman who has already LIED to your face dozens, perhaps hundreds of times. She thinks the storm has blown over. You’re dealing with a liar here. Please remember that.

Masters - I know (I absolutely KNOW) that our advice does not seem constructive. Infidelity sucks, and helping a new BS get through the initial phase is really hard. I know - I think we ALL know - exactly how you are feeling right now. We were all there at one point!

My divorce will be final a week from tomorrow. Know what my WS was still doing 5 months after Dday? Pining after his AP that was such a good 'friend' that he 'missed'. Know what he wound up doing 7 months after they went NC? He had that little skank in MY bed while I was out of town.

Respectfully dear, if she is still missing her AP, then she ain't anywhere near ready to work on her why's or support your healing in any way.

Has she freely OFFERED you any sort of access to phone email? Has she offered to take a poly? Has she offered you anything like of any of the dozens of suggestions offered to you on this thread? Has she done anything proactive whatsoever??

I know that is hard to hear - it was very hard for me to hear too. But my WS was still head-up-ass in wayward mode for MONTHS after DDay and I was accepting his complete bullshit 'I'm sorry'. It was BS because all it was was fucking words; his actions said 'fuck you'. People on here, on SI, who had no emotional investment in him... THEY SAW THE TRUTH OF HIM BETTER THAN I WAS ABLE TO - they weren't blinded by years of history and all the things that are ripping you up inside right now. I argued with them too. I ignored their advice I said, "No, that's not 'us'... we're different!" I said ALLLLLLL the same things you are. The SIers that pushed back the hardest and helped me put down the damn hopium are the ones who's words I remember. And more than anything else in the flaming shitshow that was the last year of my marriage, I wish like hell I had followed the good advice I had been given here and taken back my control.

And it isn't your concern, but that is complete horseshit that Mr HR Cheaty-McCheatersons is 'in love with his wife' and 'in R' with his wife.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 4:00 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]

I'm going to be very blunt. You are being played. You are taking the word of two Absolute Total liars, and saying they are being honest.

You know that he is trying to reconcile his wife because of what was said in his email??? Come on man. He knew damn well you were going to read that. He's trying to smooth things over with his wife. So of course he's going to write what he wrote. It doesn't mean the affair isn't continuing.

What she said. That’s a woman giving you that advice, Masters, not a man. I’m a man. Several men are on here giving you advice. Several women have also chimed in. You’re getting the same perspective and advice from both men and women. We’ve all seen it! Stop being played, man!

But my WS was still head-up-ass in wayward mode for MONTHS after DDay and I was accepting his complete bullshit 'I'm sorry'. It was BS because all it was was fucking words; his actions said 'fuck you'. People on here, on SI, who had no emotional investment in him... THEY SAW THE TRUTH OF HIM BETTER THAN I WAS ABLE TO - they weren't blinded by years of history and all the things that are ripping you up inside right now.

Masters this was my WW, too. I didn’t have the benefit of SI’s JFO forum to guide me and help me understand what was going on. YOU DO. Please wake up, my brother. We want the very best for you and right now, you’re getting treated like shit.

Masters, have you read the other thread I recommended. He’s British, I think, but he’s done what we recommended like a BOSS. It’s been hard for him, too, in some ways harder: His poisonous MIL is trying to SUPPORT her daughter’s infidelity. He’s fought through all that shit so far and has insisted on the package of non-negotiable. Guess what, it’s working! He sure as shit feels ten times better than he did even a few days ago. It’s not going to decide whether he R’s or D’s — but it’s giving him what you don’t have right now: Real data and perspective instead of gaslighting and lies.

Look Masters you have exposed the AP to his OBS. You told your WW there can be no friendship. She has devastated your M for that POS. This is all good on your part. You have to handle this your own way. Take the advice you can use and leave the rest. You know they are both proven liars. So what do you need? What is she doing? By now, if she wants to keep your M she should be busting to do something. You have received much good advice about things you can do. She needs to be in IC. A polygraph? A written timeline? You decide. You are in control. Good luck.

What is she doing? By now, if she wants to keep your M she should be busting to do something.

Answer: Not much, other than breaking NC and sending her AP loving messages about how much she misses him. Then completely disregarding her faithful husband's pain and trying to sell her BH on the notion that they are just friends.

She's not much in the way of reconciliation material, is she gang? From what we've read, she seems to be a walkaway wife deep in limerence with an AP she had a very intense sexual affair with.

Masters - SIers are wonderful about not saying 'I told you so'. They truly are. But in the last 5 weeks there have been literally dozens of threads about 'You guys were right', 'Another Dday', 'More TT'. Just go take a peruse through General, Reconciliation, ad D/S. I ain't lyin.

We are all telling you that cheaters lie. Because cheaters LIE - A LOT. Stick around here for any length of time and you will see it time and time and time again. Just like all of us have.

I, for one, would really prefer you not have to do one of the 'you guys were right' posts. (FWIW, I had to do one, and it sucked). We are all hammering you on this because we can see the truth of her better right now. You are shocky and emotionally blown to smithereens and you can't bear to see that blatant truth right now. And that is OK and completely understandable! But we all want you to get to firmer ground. And what you are doing right now is keeping you in the quicksand.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 4:07 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]

Ummmm, you agreed to her going on an away trip with him where they shared a cab and stayed at the hotel room after you discovered the affair? WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!

Why haven’t you contacted the CEO and Board and filled an official complaint?

She is STILL having an affair and they’re playing you like a weak, foolish man in their eyes.

Women don’t respect men who aren’t decisive.

Why haven’t you reported him to his company? He is her superior. He will get dismissed. THEY SHOULD NOT BE AT THE SAME WORKPLACE. EVER AGAIN.

This is so frustrating...

They’re texting each other after you specifically said complete NC. They saw each other on a work trip and stayed at the same hotel!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!! You should be on destruction mode. All you are doing is giving her a slap on the wrist and this fucker VP of HR knows he can fuck with your wife and your mind and you will not do anything about it other than ask them to go NC. How did that work out for you last time?

I’m frustrated cause I see you’re driving towards the edge of the cliff and you will not take action to stop. Stop with your indecisiveness. You appear weak to them. Your wife is a nasty woman who gets immense satisfaction seeing you in pain. Because you have not put your foot down.

[This message edited by Mene at 4:14 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]

She said they they took separate Ubers...

Nope they didn;t, why would they?

That is very clever tradecraft, tell a small believable lie to undermine the larger obvious lie. "I did not do this simple thing, so I could not have done that complex thing"

Ask her to prove it, it is very simple. Her Uber account will show if she did book an Uber. As will her Apple or Android pay. My guess is there will be one Uber record between the two of them, ask the OBS for just this one bit of info.

Cheaters Lie.

I know it hurts to read some of what you see here but unless I missed something all of it has been "constructive". You might not like it or disagree with it but trust me it's "constructive".

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems you have more anger to certain posts on your thread than you have for this piece of shit who fucked you over (and your wife) who both have blown up your world.

So your wife, KNOWING how much this has all DEVASTATED you, and you specifically conveyed to her (before the trip to Dallas) that any interaction with him moving forward might "DESTROY ME COMPLETELY".

You learned she lied about him not being in Dallas.

Now you learn she emailed him saying "I MISS YOU"????

That she "MISSES THEIR FRIENDSHIP"??

Her marriage and her family is literally hanging by a thread and she sends this?

Your wife keeps showing you time and time and time again by her ACTIONS (NOT her words) that she isn't remorseful and is in NO WAY SOMEONE WHO COULD POSSIBLY BE OFFERED THE GIFT OF RECONCILIATION.

Further she knows she can do whatever she wants because you won't draw a line in the sand where if she steps over the line there's consequences to suffer.

Better yet she steps over it and you act like you're all upset but then you move the line again to accommodate her so you do NOT have to take any actions and she KNOWS this.

"I don't know where to go from here" you now say?

I call bullshit on this because you do know you just don't want to take the advice from everyone on here who have given you concrete things you could be doing to potentially save your marriage (or at least get you out of infidelity) and you have flat out ignored all of it.

Your situation is "unique"?

NO IT ISN'T!!

Your wife is "different"?

NO SHE ISN'T!!

As people on here have been trying to get you to realize some of the details might be different but at the core of what's going on with your lying cheating wife is what everyone dealing with a CHEATER has dealt with.

People see you in pain and we're trying to help you but you keep slapping the hands away and are basically taking the knife out of your wife's hand that she used to stab you and now you're stabbing yourself with it.

Can't you see this??

It's NOT people bashing you or blasting you or offering you bullshit advice and critiquing things you're doing and not doing it's people (WHO HAVE NOT JUST LIVED WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH BUT GOT THROUGH TO THE OTHER SIDE) who have gotten out of this NIGHTMARE called infidelity to get to a place of peace.

Sooner or later you're going to have to pull your head out of the sand and come up for air and realize the REALITY of your situation.

It's like an alcoholic FINALLY admitting to himself that he's an ALCOHOLIC. He actually utters the words..."I AM AN ALCOHOLIC".

It takes ENORMOUS COURAGE to say this!!

Only then can you start to see what the problem really is and with help to start to navigate a road to healing and peace.

Masters...until you get to the place where you can utter the words (and know in your heart) that your wife and this piece of shit other man have had SEX and NOT just "kissing" that you've been telling yourself this nightmare is going to continue.

Right now instead of a marriage built on trust you have both of you LYING to each other and yourselves.

Until BOTH of you get real this sham of a marriage (that you've stated has been on the rocks for quite awhile) is going to continue and those kids of yours are stuck RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.

If your wife is NOT going to wake up and get real how about you???

One of you NEEDS to do this for your kids for crying out loud. They do NOT deserve this nor to be treated like collateral damage (which your wife's actions have made them).

So now you can't get anything off her phone.

Go figure.

The question is what are you willing to do?

As I see it you can:

1) rugsweep this and do nothing which will over time destroy you and you'll implode.

2) make her take a polygraph to prove her innocence but more importantly to see if she's willing to do WHATEVER necessary to save her marriage and rebuild trust with you.

3) or just file for divorce now and see if she's willing to fight for her marriage. It will take awhile for the process to play out and if she wakes up and starts showing you by her actions that she truly does want to save her marriage and family well you can always stop the D.

When are you TRULY going to get ANGRY??

Why haven't you BLOWN UP this piece of shits world by already finding an attorney and going after this man and the company he works for?

I know you'll take this as blasting you and that's fine but for crying out loud when are you going to man the F up, get PISSED off about what they've done to you and your kids, and realize what you've been doing is NOT WORKING SO WHY NOT TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT??

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

If you're not going to do it for you do it for your kids!!

You can tell me to F off and that's fine but you're in the fight of your life and you've shown up with just your fists where your opponent(s) brought AK47s.

I hope you stick around Masters.

Please don't get defensive.

Trust me all of us made a lot of the same mistakes and all we're trying to do is pass along not just our experience but the specific actions you can take that will help you get out of this nightmare.

As Bigger says, it may save your marriage or it may lead to divorce but NOTHING is worse staying in infidelity and the fallout from betrayal.

Praying for you and your family.

Women don’t respect men who aren’t decisive.

Masters, we gotta get even more real here for a second, and I hope most of the women on this thread will back me up on this. I’m gonna talk about some basic female psychology with respect to men, because what Mene said has some additional layers under it. This doesn’t always apply to all women everywhere. But based on what you’re telling us, I think it does apply to your wife.

First, Proverbs 30:20. Did you ever read it? Read it! Let it sink in! That’s your damn wife.

Second, women don’t like Mr. Nice Guy. You’re being Mr. Nice Guy because you are scared and because you were conditioned that way. Even when you were “blowing up” you were being Mr. Nice Guy. I understand. I understand the fear and pain. We all get it. But you have to STOP being Mr. Nice Guy. Women find Mr. Nice Guy absolutely repellent. It turns their stomach. It’s why women will go against their better judgement for bad boys. Women want a man. They want a quality loving man, but if they can’t find that, they’ll often just take a man, even a bad one who just turns them on. There’s another thread on here where a guy found his wife texting a girlfriend about a sheriff’s deputy she knew was a bad boy, knew was trying to break into her marriage, but she said he “made her weak in the knees.” Mr. Nice Guy doesn’t make a woman weak in the knees. Men do.

Third, your wife is (not was) engaging in this affair as a fantasy of “trading up” — Not every woman, but a shallow woman, looks at her man, and if he’s not measuring up to whatever fantasy she thinks she’s entitled to, she’ll start casting her eye around. She may not cheat, but she’ll think about it. If a more “successful” prospect comes her way, however she defines that, she may jump at the opportunity. This doesn’t reflect on YOU; it reflects on her shitty choices and weaknesses. And it’s not real, either. Mr. VP of HR was never going to blow his family up for the side piece he’s made your wife into. He would rather mollify his wife, and laugh in his sleeve while you twist in the wind and he keeps banging your wife. But your wife fantasized about a life with him, and she still does. She sees you as weak Mr. Nice Guy, someone she “loves” but isn’t “in love with” (that old crappy cliche), because that’s precisely what you’re offering her and you just keep digging that hole deeper. She sees Mr. VP of HR as “a low-key daddy” a sexy, somewhat older man who’s got his shit together. I didn’t say that was reality, but it is her powerful fantasy. And you keep feeding it with your behavior.

Those observations may piss you off, and they should. But don’t bother telling me I “don’t know” your sweet, wonderful wife who is sooo different. She’s not.

And the answer is not to rage at your wife at 2 am in the dark, threaten her with divorce and then roll over and go back to sleep after she sends a bullshit email.

The answer is to get colder with your anger and start taking the actions we’ve recommended.

The person with the power here is the one who needs the other one less. Your wife sees you as Mr. Nice Guy schlub. You’re needy. You’re dancing on a hot plate. She’s *fond* of you as the father of her children, but she’s DTF her AP and she’ll do anything she can to keep finding ways to screw him behind your back. She wants him. She thinks he is her soulmate. She might even think she’s having her very own “Eat. Pray. Love” moment. It’s a bullshit narrative she’s telling herself. But it has a powerful grip on her.

And she is lying to you about all of it.

Let her have him. I mean it. Lay down the law with her, give her 1 day to get her shit together and start complying with your requests. After that, serve her with divorce papers. You can change your mind later.

180 her right the f*ck now. What are you waiting for? Move into a different room; invoke an in home separation. At the very least. Withdraw your affection. Do it.

One more time: Have you been tested for STD’s yourself? I notice you keep avoiding this question. If you haven’t then for God’s sake stop any sexual activity with her. Go celibate. Do not have hysterical bonding sex with a wayward Proverbs 30:20 woman. You might as well put your d*ck in a meat grinder.

Do what we’ve recommended. Harden up. Snap out of it. Maybe you need to go lift seriously and heavy for the next few weeks. There are few things that will harden up your psychology like time in the iron temple (and trust me, golf or running will not have the same salutary impact).

I know it hurts to read this. You gotta move now, brother.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:13 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]

Hi Masters,

Honestly, I am sorry if it seems like people are blasting you. None of it is aimed at you as a person. What you have in this forum is a bunch of spiritual brothers and sisters who have all been hit by infidelity, and who have all had to walk the same road that you are now treading.

People here may seem like they are overreacting, or being dramatic, but the reason they are trying to make their points so emphatically is because they made their own mistakes, just as I made mine, and they do not want to see you repeating those mistakes.

What people are trying to say is focused on you as an individual getting out from under all the dishonesty that has been piled onto you by your wife and her affair partner. For people here, that does seem like a constructive goal.

Believe me, if people here could wave a magic wand, rewind time, and prevent every affair that has been documented in these pages, we would.

That cannot be done, but it does not mean that victims of infidelity cannot re-establish a state of honesty in their lives. And one of the ways to do that is by actively purging dishonesty and the mechanics of dishonesty from their lives.

That is why people have suggested everything from polygraphs to legal action, to your wife leaving the job that brings her into contact with her affair partner, and all the other things that have been rejected.

I could be totally wrong, but to me it looks like your wife and her affair partner - forget all of that 'friend' language - are in complacent damage-limitation mode, actively blowing smoke. And we hate to see that happening to you.

I know how painful it is to confront the realities of these situations. They are unfair, unjust, they spoil something good, sometimes the most precious things we have ever had in life. However, it would be even more unfair and unjust for us to blow soothing smoke when we see red flags and the potential for more deception.

I am sorry if that is hard to read at times, but we really are trying to do something positive and constructive for you by rescuing you from deception.

We are not attacking you; we are on your side. When we take issue with something, we do so because we are concerned about the potential harm it can do you.

Believe it or not most of the advice you're getting here is "CONSTRUCTIVE", here on SI we tell you what we think you need to hear, not necessarily what you may want to hear, it comes from the collective wisdom of SI and other forums, literally THOUSANDS of stories very similar to yours, you seem to be ignoring most of the advice and are still showing weakness by sneaking out of bed at 1:42 am to look at her phone in stead of just demanding it from her on the spot, you need to take control and be proactive (take action) instead of being reactive.

IMHO your WW has not done much other than pining for OM, "she misses him" and broke NC, after month an a half you just demanded an NC letter (which is good btw) but like someone else said, not that effective when they still work for the same company and will be in close proximity often, if you don't believe the advice you're given here that's ok too and of course it's your life and your choice, but our collective advice has stood the test of time and again with THOUSANDS of stories to back it up.

Masters,

I hope you are not a gambler, because you would lose your ass. If i read it correctly, you stated early on if they had sex you were done, and just basically restated that.

Now I am not going to recommend either R or D because thats your call, but I don't know how you can do either without a fucking clue what they did or did not do.

I guess you are the only one of all these strangers that believes for a New York second that they were in the same hotel and only kissed, but he knew how the sunset looked from her room makes it more likely you will hit the lottery tomorrow than that will be true.

So if the phone data collection does not work, basically you are going to have a cheating wife still working with her boyfriend where you have no clue what they do or say, and your entire existence and peace rests on her word about telling the truth.

My guess is if you follow that path your guts will be in your throat for years every time she goes to work.

The most baffling thing to me is your total rejection of anything that will get you more truth.

Lets start with the VAR in her car. If she is still talking to him outside work you will get that answer within 24 hours, and you will also know if any of her other friends or work peers knows and is enabling her.

You also totally reject a polygraph test, which she should be falling over herself to take. Two or three yes or no questions will tell you everything you claim to need to know. Even the demand for her to take it might get you some answers. But my guess is she will look like Casper The Ghost if you demand a poly, and that ought to tell you something, no???

So my question for you is WHY are you so adamant in refusing what you need to do to get the truth????? I think most will tell you being in limbo is the worst possible outcome.

Her still working with him is already an uphill task for you. but you seem unfortunately determined to keep voluntarily making your road much more difficult.

Masters,

I was about to ask why you're so adamantly opposed t to doing a polygraph and someone else just asked it.

This one really baffles me. It's cheap. It will scare the shit out of her. (EDIT: and she deserves to be scared shitless; nice time should be over now).

If she passes it, she's more than likely telling the truth. If she tries to weasel her way out of it or just refuses, she's lying.

If she gets to the parking lot and spills her guts to you, then you've cut through the Gordian's knot in one fell swoop and bypassed all this bullshit.

I'm honestly confused. Why won't you do it? They are super easy to set up. If I'd known how easy three years ago, I would have set one up back then.

So why? Could you help us help you by answering that?

And I have the same question about demanding her phone and demanding an STD panel from her? These are other things where her reactions will tell you everything you need to know.

Why won't you act now?

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:22 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]

Good God Masters, I almost don’t know what to say. You are being played by your WW and the OM and you just keep swallowing the shit sandwich they’re feeding you.

I told my wife, you broke my heart, stomped on it, and then kicked it.

If you think your heart hearts now, buckle up. You haven’t felt anything yet. It’s just starting. They’re just lying to both you and the OBS. The affair is just moving underground.

If anyone has any CONSTRUCTIVE advice for the situation I'm currently in, please share.

There’s literally been dozens of posts offering CONSTRUCTIVRE advice for you that you seem to ignore. WAKE UP!!!!!!

Masters think about what actually happened here: your wife just tested the waters to see what she could now get away with under the new paradigm (now that this thing is kinda sorta out there).

Now she knows she can still go on trips with him, have hotel sex, and message him post coital lovey dovey messages ... and she can get away with it by putting up with some minimal shouting and pouting from you.

I want to join the chorus in saying that we really do want to just help and give you the best advice possible - that advice is from a lot of people with years of experience. Folks here really do know what they're talking about - the same things play out over and over again - and forgive us that it can be frustrating watching one of our brothers make choices that aren't going to be successful.

I mentioned to you a few weeks ago that you needn't be Sherlock Holmes, sneaking around trying to find out what's on her phone. A WW deeply interested in reconciliation and having even a tiny sense of remorse (not regret) would gladly hand you her phone. The fact that you won't even ask is dispositive of where this is likely going.

Now you find an email that she sends her AP in the middle of the night saying she misses him, all while you are going through the hell of learning about her A. Alarm bells should be ringing for you and you should be taking aggressive steps in a whole other direction - gently, what you have been doing is not working.

I know a lot of the advice her comes across as 2x4's but intentions are good. I really urge you to re-read this thread carefully and try to open your mind. You need to get onto the right path and I truly hope you do very soon.

My best to you.