SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There is cheating in healthy marriages too. Don't know the percentages. Everything's great, I'm bored. BS is perfect, I'm jealous and want to see him/her taken down a peg. BS treats me like royalty, I have contempt for them, but am intrigued by this person who doesn't take my crap. And on and on.

Actually since I believe that only a minority of marriages are bad and most marriages are good, and given our nation’s 50 percent divorce rate, it stands to reason that most infidelity is happening in good marriages. This is becoming more clear every day and the therapeutic community seems to be having an awakening of sorts about it. We’re faced with an epidemic of infidelity happening in good marriages and stable families. The fallout for our society is going to be epic.

The thing is, what is a "happy marriage", really?

I know so so many married people who tell me about their marital issues and it largely amounts to some mix of feeling underappreciated, not communicating with each other, being sexually starved, having no personal time anymore because of kids and other adult responsibilities, and the stress from work. These people will affect different levels of "everything's okay" every now and then between really laying into their spouses. Sometimes they find proper footing again and that whole wave of unhappiness disappears from their conversation. Here I am, objective listener du jour, mentally noting how close to the precipice of cheating they appeared--and some were very much so on that razor's edge (and some took the dive).

I think in general people just have a difficult time putting in the much needed work. They check out, like a jaded employee. Cheating to them becomes like stealing paper clips and stationery to stick it to their company.

I'd agree with the sentiment that "happy spouses don't cheat" if I didn't get the sense that MOST PEOPLE live in this world of temptation and shitty decision-making and messiness. This is straight out of that Belgian therapist's playbook if memory serves, but a year out from all this crap, I can start to see the foundation of her cynical worldview.

I don’t think cheating is a statement of the happiness of your marriage. People who cheat aren’t cheating because of their marriage or their spouse. My spouse is actually a wonderful person and my marriage was always good. Why’s and how’s are on the cheating party 100 percent.

My personal situation was bad coping and blaming my personal problems on my marriage. He should have been my go to on that. I did make some attempts but he didn’t understand how dire the situation had become. I was in the middle of an emotional breakdown of epic proportions but he just thought it was weird I was suddenly crying all the time when I was never much of a crier our whole marriage. He thought I was having early menopause.

Still, The cheating was 100 percent on me. Lots of people go through worse. I should have sought help.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:13 PM, November 26th (Tuesday)]

Oh man, if only more people thought like you, hikingout. So many navigate through this whole torturous process without so much as accepting an iota of blame let alone this level of self-evaluation.

Edit: I'd add, being a BS really makes it difficult to undergo my own self-evaluation in a constructive way. It's especially hard when the WS just kind of up and pisses off without getting to the heart of the matter and you're left filling in the gaps, at first, with all of your insecurities--or flat out just blaming them and not really doing the self work needed to both heal and grow. It would be nice to have had some constructive criticism to point to the next time I try to be someone's boyfriend/husband.

[This message edited by AbandonedGuy at 9:16 PM, November 26th (Tuesday)]

Since I use 'fog' to mean 'not in touch with reality,' I hardly think it's a euphemism. It seems to me to be a pretty harsh indictment.

Many SIers use the term as description, not as an excuse.

What concerns me is that so many people interpret so many statements through their own filters instead of doing their best to understand what has been written.

Brain scans? Much - most - of what goes on in the human brain is metaphorical and probably culturally constructed. One who ignores that does so at his peril.

If you expect to heal from being betrayed, at this point, you MUST get down and dirty with your feelings.

And even if humanity gets to a point of showing 1-to-1 correlations between scans and feeling, the person with the feelings is going to have to do the work of resolving those feeling to have a hope of healing.

JMO, of course.

Actually since I believe that only a minority of marriages are bad and most marriages are good....

What's the basis of that belief? And how do you define 'bad M' and 'good M'?

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:32 PM, November 26th (Tuesday)]

Actually since I believe that only a minority of marriages are bad and most marriages are good

See, and I think most people have lousy interpersonal skills and unsatisfying marriages. One person is usually far more in love but doesn't realize it (because they don't want to) and the other partner spends most of their time in the driver's seat dictating the marital terms. Both claim to be happy while the loving partner scurries after the busy or popular or outgoing or independent partner, but the lack of equilibrium seems obvious. Of course, the selfish partner is usually needier than they want to admit, and the clingy one often craves some independence and validation, too--but these things are usually realized after the marital shit hits the fan. We learn, or we're supposed to.

Every marriage I see looks like a couple of inexperienced travelers trying to navigate the high seas of life, some getting it right due to sheer luck while others get stuck in the muck or take on water and sink outright. You get good at most things by doing them, and for many of us, that comes with a lot of wrong moves and errors in judgment and stupid stupidity along the way. Good marriages? There are only two kinds: the earned and the untested.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:32 PM, November 26th (Tuesday)]

There are only two kinds: the earned and the untested.

Can we carve that into the door to every courthouse, please?

I still feel now what I felt a year ago--after oxytocin and dopamine wears off, love is a choice, and marriage is a thing you build with someone not something you put on set and forget mode. It's that second thing that really trips up a lot of people, in my experience at least. I was just as guilty of being someone who could've listened better, who could've put more effort into certain aspects of it. Not excusing the cheating or anything, but I could've definitely been a much better husband and partner. (I'm still glad I'm free from that toxic farce!)

marriage is a thing you build with someone not something you put on set and forget mode. It's that second thing that really trips up a lot of people, in my experience at least

You keep working on yourself, AbandonedGuy, and your reward will come in the form of a fabulous and satisfying second marriage. I have many friends in wonderful second marriages, their first unhappy partnerships just a distant memory. You'll get that, too. I really believe that.

Thanks OwningItNow, I truly appreciate that. I read that Abandonment book by the way. It totally mirrored my experience through and through. I could've written just about every word in it.

Hiking Out said "I will only offer here as a WW, admittedly this is going to be very little consolation.

The addiction is to the feelings or the affair, not to the AP. And, when the WW has worked through what has happened, none of what transpired is a desirable thing. What is really not replicable with an AP is the things that have true substance, meaning, and richness with the BS. Nothing I experienced with the AP or even in the highs of the affair was comparable to what my true life is. It wasn't worth it on any level, and I don't think that you as a BS should feel the need to compete with anything. YOU are the prize to be won. That's not lip service. I cringe when I think of what would have happened had I really landed with the AP. I would have truly gotten what I deserved, that's for sure - a truly shitty life with a lot of regrets. So, to me, it's the affair that could never compare or live up to my marriage or my husband.

Thanks for writing that. Your self reflection and growth are a model for others, including many BS (and me) in my opinion. At the same time, one has to wonder how many WS get to this point and if they do, are they successful in communicating it? How many BS still have the lurking doubt that there are lingering bits of fondness for the A in the heart and mind of the WS no matter what they say?

How many BS still have the lurking doubt that there are lingering bits of fondness for the A in the heart and mind of the WS no matter what they say?

Depending on the stage they are in and how soon after DDay. But I dare say all at one point. That’s why what your WS does is so important. The words are nice and fine, but if it’s not backed up by actual behavior then it’s meaningless. Don’t trust and verify. The trust that’s broken is not just about whether they’ll cheat again. It’s about how they feel and how you feel. How do you trust how they feel about you? They may say all the right things, but those words ring hollow. That’s why when hikingout said how a WS’s actions don’t back up the words, it was so on point.

My wife’s affair was and EA/PA. There were feelings. She’s disgusted by those feelings now but that’s her feelings about her affair and the OM. From my end how can I trust how she feels about me? In my case it took time and observable actions and behavior day in and day out, consistently over time. If those actions and how they live their life with you are not there, then that kind of trust is very hard to regain (and it’s hard enough even with all that).

There is something absolutely missing in a person who makes the series of choices that makes an A happen.

It’s not a coincidence, not “fate”, not a mistake. Until the Cheater decides to find out what inside them is broken/missing, they are destined to continue.

that support the notion of 'the fog.' I stand ready to be corrected.

The fog = denial

Denial has lots of evidence of truth. Us BS's experience it in every affair. You even talked about it.

People like to think we're all unique special snowflakes. That's true to some degree, but not nearly as true as we Westerners would hope.

Right there. We're all in denial. So yes. I'd say the fog is real. WS love denial cause it helps them feel good about themselves and what they're doing. BS's cling to it cause it gives them hope something they've always had.

Take the advice you can use. The individual situations aren't all that unique. 

People posting on here are in a lot of pain. Some have D'ed R'ed or are in limbo. While I agree there are very similar tendencies with cheaters, there's a lot that my WW didn't have. So I agree with the statement take what you can use, and heed all other warnings. Infidelity is a monster, but it's predictable. The more we know about it the less we fear it and the more prepared we are. Doesnt mean I should follow all advice from people suffering from emotional trauma.

This may seem harsh. But cheating is harsh

I never stopped loving you .......

I come to believe they never loved you. They convince themselves of many things to feel better. Loving you is one.

Thus is not love. You don’t destroy those you love. You don’t time out and then fix love. These are continued lies and delusions

I never stopped loving you .......

I come to believe they never loved you. They convince themselves of many things to feel better. Loving you is one.

Thus is not love. You don’t destroy those you love. You don’t time out and then fix love. These are continued lies and delusions

Very much agree. I don’t believe in “love” as a vague romantic notion. It is a series of deliberate behaviors and actions.

Adultery - no matter how many times they say “it wasn’t about you” — is an act of contempt and hate and disrespect.

I come to believe they never loved you. They convince themselves of many things to feel better. Loving you is one.

Thus is not love.

This is based on personal definition. I truly believe my ex thought he loved me throughout, but it was based on HIS twisted definition of love. What I came to realize is that our definitions of love are vastly different. Doesn't mean he was lying to me, nor that he said it to convince himself to feel better (a psychopath doesn't care). It just means we have different definitions. I can accept that.

[This message edited by ulthias at 12:09 PM, November 29th (Friday)]

Fog, FOO issues, whatever. To me, it seems very convenient to blame it on something else. Truly, if they are/were unhappy, speak to your SO. Seriously, IMHO the only reason they can't, is because they want their world, but still want you in it as the wife or husband appliance. Yuk!

I’m not saying the “affair fog” causes the affair.

But I watched my H become confused about what he wanted. He wanted a D. Then wound change his mind. He did this 3 times and the last time was twice in one week.

The last time as the last straw. I no longer had any patience and my “I don’t give a damn” meter maxed out. So I told him I had no choice but to D him. I found see he was emotionally struggling and waffling back and forth on what he wanted.

He was free to go.

But I believe the fog is real. I saw it with my own eyes.

take what you need and leave the rest.

I interpret this as, "Take what you can comprehend at the moment and leave the rest." I believe many concepts and ideas offered to support long term reconciliation are initially incomprehensible by BS/WS because the BS/WS still need to establish their own sound foundational building blocks. For example, saying that you must be willing to loose your marriage in order to save it, or, you need to find a way to forgive your WS, can be flat out insulting and contradictory in early stages of recovery. For this reason, I believe "take what you need and leave the rest" is a method that helps people move forward without being discouraged.