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Daniel, I am so sorry that your wife has completely pulled the rug out from under your life. Wow!

What makes me really sad is that you say several times that you are embarrassed. You defend how discovering her google history was accidental. You just seem really disappointed with yourself in how you've handled things.

I don't imagine that many BSs handle everything completely "right". I know I majorly did the "pick me" dance, I gave way too many chances, I ignored my gut a lot, and I second-guessed my own responses constantly.

Give yourself a bit of a break for how you've reacted thus far. Discovering that your wife of 18 years is or has become someone capable of doing the things she has done to you and your family is devastating. I know I felt I was in shock for months and incapable of being able to truly comprehend what was going on. It is not uncommon for BSs to be diagnosed with PTSD as a result of discovering infidelity. So be gentle with yourself and don't let the guilt of your own reactions bring you further down. Easier said than done, I know.

All you have is NOW. NOW you have reached out for help and advice. NOW you are recognizing the extent of the lies and deceit and betrayal. Regardless of how you've acted to this pointed, you can NOW choose to act in your and your girls' best interest.

Writing out your story and seeing in black and white the depth of the hole your WS threw you in is pretty shocking. You've been given a lot of really valuable advice from some folks who have been in your shoes. Muster all your strength and follow it.

I wish you the best Daniel.

One more thing Daniel -

Please get tested for STDs asap.

Sociopaths and people with extra Y chromosomes are often called alpha males , most of us just need to be functional adults and be with functional adults

In your story your wife is the “alpha male” not only should you not try and be one its best if you dont try and stay with one either. They trash houses and lives and other peoples sanity

Its not stupidity that keeps good people with bad people its typically prioritizing ones own needs last , people often learn to do this in childhood through taking care of needy parents .... and sadly the habit sticks .

[This message edited by siracha at 10:40 AM, October 15th (Thursday)]

one of my problems is, when I ask "what has changed?" what is the answer I'm looking for?

What I perceived in my W were things like:

a commitment to honesty - she answered my many questions without minimizing, trickling truth, or blame-shifting and with not much defensiveness

she took responsibility - she answered questions with 'I did...', 'I said ...', 'I felt...', etc., even when the answer made her look bad.

she went NC within a couple of hours of d-minute - but note that I, too, don't see IC as R - it is just a prereq for R, not R itself

she stayed in the A because to end it meant exposing a major professional mistake. I did the first exposure; she took it from there.

She agreed to 90% of my initial requirements for R, and I could see she was meeting them. (Talking resolved the 10% disagreement.)

Above all, she took on an attitude of 'I fucked up terribly because of something inside me, and I'm going to work to fix whatever that is whether sisoon stays or not.'

On one hand, that meant she was focusing on herself and not catering to me. On the other, my interpretation was that I'd be getting a really good partner if I stuck around, and I wouldn't have trusted catering to me, anyway - I fear that if someone goes overboard, the someone will build up resentment, and I don't like where that leads.

This may be TMI, but one of my requirements was more sex, and it was one of hers, too. Like many men, my primary love language is physical touch, so sex does a lot to rebuild M bonds.

*****

I didn't commit to R until I saw 90 days of consistent work on her part. That was 90 days after d-day, because she started changing on d-day.

I felt uncertain that R would succeed for at least 2 years.

*****

I believe R has to be a free, mindful choice by both partners. R, IMO, is a process of building a good M, and I think a good M has to serve both partners.

A corollary is that I believe both partners need to get what they want out of R. Either party can dictate what they want - and walk if the don;t get enough of what they want.

But neither party can effectively dictate what R will be. IMO, the WS has important rights. And if the partners can't negotiate what R will be, R probably won't work anyway, at least IMO.

Besides, I wanted a full partner, not a handmaid.

*****

I've outlined of my experience to give you some benchmarks.

If my W had behaved as yours has, she would have had a much harder time getting me into R. I think that would mean much longer than 90 days between deciding to see if R was for us and my committing to R.

I'm convinced it's critically important to know what you want. I'm also convinced it's critically important to know if what one wants is attainable.

I very much wanted R. I was also fully prepared, I thought, to D unless I thought my W would do the necessary work.

Wanting and doing are 2 separate things in my worldview....

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:07 AM, October 15th (Thursday)]

Dan, sorry you found yourself here. 2x4 here

No, I have no interest in an open marriage and that has been made clear to WW.

Like in or not, you were in an open marriage in the last 5 months. No amount of time will change anything if you allow yourself to be treated like this.

Like in or not, you were in an open marriage in the last 5 months. No amount of time will change anything if you allow yourself to be treated like this.

Second this.

My advice is to move out and go NC with your WW. Get your head on straight.

Who you are right now is okay. It's okay to be at any step of the process. Start anywhere, it's okay.

BUT

YOU ARE NOT IN R RIGHT NOW. YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO ATTEMPT R RIGHT NOW.

R takes two. Right now, you have zero. Your WW isn't out of the A, and you're too desperate for R. This is why I do NOT recommend just "giving it time." That is just stalling on the part of you that is so desperate for this all to be over and to be in R. That is not the side of you that you need to listen to you right now.

Your WW is going to be very adept at keeping your head spinning. Your WW knows a lot more about what's going on than you do. My ex was the same way. You just need to walk away. You are of value, but your relationship is toxic to you. That's why I want separation for you, so you can get your head on straight and take care of yourself.

Daniel,

Also let your WW know that OM is now a marked man for life and you will pick the time and the place.

OM has intentionally played a part in the destruction of your childrens family and is a child abuser and there will be no forgiveness.

When I arranged an "accidental" meet up between my W and OM1, his kids were there too, I told her I was glad I now know what his kids look like.

DNA testing for your kids inform WW, also inform kids about her affair and who OM is so your WW does not get a change to tell them a cute story.

While your at it expose the affair widely, and the OM as well, facebook, linked in, etc etc.

I’m going to give it a little more time, but decisions need to be made.

The second part of that is spot on. The first part though? That is wrong on so many levels.

Look man, the last fucking thing you need to be doing right now is equivocating, about anything, on any level at all. I’m sure you’ve heard the analogy about how to boil a frog: If you just toss Mr. Frog into a pot of boiling water? He’ll just hop right the fuck out. No, what you need to do is put that froggy into a pot of lukewarm water, and then slowly turn up the heat a little at a time.

That, my friend, is what your WW has been doing to you. She keeps pushing at your boundaries... a little more every time. She turns up the heat on that pot of water 10 degrees, and you start to get restless... have a big blowup as you described it. So what does she do? She dials that temp back 5 degrees. And you think “Great! We’re making some progress!” and you decide you’ll give it a little more time. Meanwhile, that water is still 5 degrees hotter. Wash rinse repeat and pretty soon froggy’s been boiled down to the fucking bones.

It’s fucking alarming how quickly shitty and unacceptable situations can morph into the new normal. But that is exactly what is happening to you. Just imagine the Daniel of a couple years ago, when everything seemed to be going alright.Put yourself in that Daniel’s headspace. And now imagine if that Daniel suddenly got hit with everything that you now know about your wife’s behavior. Not in bits and pieces over time like it happened to you, but all at once, in one big fucking download. How would that Daniel react? I don’t know you, but I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that his reaction would be a full on four alarm, red alert, hair on fire fucking freak out.

But that’s not what happened is it? Instead you got a little bit at a time. Suspicious texting and behavior? That seems strange. So you push her to stop it. And she pushes back. She gives ground enough to mollify you but she still keeps staking our new ground. What she is doing, perhaps not even consciously or intentionally, is training you to accept the unacceptable. And, fucking ironically, you are training her right back at the same time. You are training her that she can push you and push you, but that you value the marriage enough that you will tolerate her shitty behavior... as long as she doesn’t push too far too fast.

Look, you fucking clearly are wanting to try and save your marriage. And I am not one who is going to tell you that that isn’t possible. If anything I probably have a reputation around here as being “ProReconciliation”. If you want to try and save this marriage I’ll be pulling for you.

But I will also be honest with you. And the honest fact of the matter is this: If you want to try and save your marriage there is a rapidly closing window of time in which to do it.

And you’ve already let a bunch of that time slip through your fingers buddy.

If there is one consistent theme I have seen over and over in my ten years on this board, it is BS’ that are so desperate to save their relationships that they refuse to put their foot down soon enough. They dither and they equivocate and they hem and haw and, before they fucking realize it, their relationship ends up dying the death of a thousand fucking cuts.

Bs’, hell people in general, can swallow a whole lot of shit before they hit their limit. But hit it they always fucking do. And usually, when that shit reaches the top and comes vomiting back up? It ends up covering and polluting and despoiling everything in its immediate vicinity. When that happens it already too fucking late to save anything worth having. That fucking strategy never works. Never. It always ends in one of two places: an end to the relationship. Or the continuation of a changed and remarkably shittier one.

You have been making yourself swallow a lot of shit in the hopes that, by making enough sacrifice, you can save this relationship and prove to your WS that you are the good guy. You are so afraid that pushing back on her bullshit or putting your foot down will drive her out the door that you are blind to the fact that doing essentially nothing is already having the same fucking effect. Only with the added fucking bonus of buckets of extra fucking pain for you.

And as for WS’, hell, for people in general? They can realize their bad behavior, pull their fucking heads out of their asses and learn to be better fucking humans. But they rarely fucking do. Because it’s hard and it’s fucking painful and nobody ever wants to have to admit to themselves, or to anybody else, that they have been the fucking bad guy. No one is ever the fucking villain in their own personal movie.

Ever notice how in a movie you can always tell if they are going to have the good guy do something really shitty? Because they always set it up by having some shitty stuff happen to him first? That way, when the hero does the shitty thing, we the audience cut him a little extr slack because of all the bad things that We saw happen to him previously. That lets us say to ourselves: “Ok, that was fucked up what he just did there but you can’t really blame him cause xy&z happened in the first act”.

People do that same shit all the time in the movies they make in their heads about their own lives. People do evil shit all the fucking time. But rarely do they think of themselves as the bad guy. No, they’re just victims of circumstance. Most WS’ aren’t any different. They see the shit they are doing, they know it’s fucked up. But that doesn’t fit with the script for the movie of their life that they’re writing in their head. In that script they are the fucking good guy. And that cognitive dissonance, it fucks up the whole plot.

So the solution is a script rewrite, complete with reshoots and additional fucking footage. That where all that “I’ve been unhappy a long time” and “you didn’t love me enough“ and “(insert generic fucking excuse for infidelity)” shit comes from. But that shit isn’t easy to construct. It’s hard to wedge all those new plot points into the narrative. It takes time to get all that constructed believably in their heads.

And time, my friend, is exactly what you are proposing to give her.

Not a great idea.

The only consistency successful method that I have seen for getting a WS to pull their heads out of their ass and face fucking reality is a big old bucket full of cold wet reality splashed all over them. She will not face the pain she has caused you, the essential badness of her behavior, unless forced to. Fuck, she probably cannot. Admitting to yourself that you are the fucking bad guy is an extinction level event to the ego on a profoundly deep level. Most people would do Almost anything, hurt almost anyone, to avoid having to do that.

Which is why it is so important to act quickly and decisively. Before she has any more time to continue shoring up the defenses that she has spent months building to protect her from exactly that.

My recommendation to you? Draw up to sets of papers:

The first set of papers is a list of what you need to feel safe in continuing this relationship. And don’t try to be the fucking nice guy to her on this. Be nice to yourself. Honestly think about what it would take for you to feel safe and secure in a relationship with someone who is demonstrably capable of treachery. Some recommendations:

Full Transparency. Access to all media and devices.

No social media

IC

An honest an heartfelt admission of wrongdoing

A full timeline

Polygraph

You get the idea. Make your own list but make it thorough, take the time to really think about what you want in a relationship. And for fucks sake don’t worry about wether or not it’s all fucking “Reasonable” (god I fucking hate it when people on here ask that). Nothing about this entire fucking situation is even remotely fucking reasonable. Why on earth should fucking “Reasonable” be your responsibility at this point?

The second set of papers should be divorce papers.

She gets to chose.

I realize that sounds shockingly cold blooded to your ears right now. But believe me, I’m the fucking Pro-Reconciliation guy saying this. As I said previously, vanishingly small window of opportunity here to pull this shit out of the nosedive it is in. And that window is closing faster everyday. Every minute of everyday she is constructing newer and better narratives about why you are the bad guy and she is the victim. And she is doing that regardless of how nice you are or how reasonable you are. She is doing it because, as I said, the alternative is to face the ego crushing reality that she has been a fucking bad person. No one wants to face that reality. Not unless they absolutely fucking have to.

I truly believe that giving her a choice between those two sets of papers is the best shot at getting her to pull her head out of her ass and face that reality. I truly believe it’s the best hope for getting you out of pain and the best hope of saving her from her own self destruction. It’s the bravest path, the strongest path and even the kindest path for you both.

Even then, the chances are slim that this shit can be salvaged. But waiting and seeing? Doing nothing at this point? I’d give the odds on that at about zero.

Best of luck to you brother. Strength and peace to you.

Actually, OP, the nicer you are you to your wife the less respect she has for you.

That doesn't mean you go around as a raging asshole in your marriage. But the Mr. Nice Guy routine is absolutely repellent and abhorrent to most women. It makes them want to puke.

She is losing respect bit by bit for you. I promise you this: If you show some backbone and lay down the law for her with a set of divorce papers, you will see a completely different woman in front of you.

The space alien body snatcher will be gone. You will either see a (supposedly) contrite woman begging you for another chance ... or you will have succeeded in fully ripping off any shred of the mask she's been wearing. In the latter case, she'll turn into a truly vindictive psycho monster.

But in either case, you will know what to do and what you are dealing with. The more you have at least one foot out the door, the more she will try to cling to your ankles.

Then is the time to harden the fuck up, not go soft in the face of her snot-nosed crocodile tears, and probably enforce at the very least an obligatory separation period of 30-90 days (at the VERY LEAST)

Your wife has been behaving like an absolute skank, completely disrespecting you, and taking everything for granted. In short, she's a shifty bullshitter and basically a real asshole.

No more Mr. Nice Guy.

Give her what she supposedly wants. Stop coddling her.

And bear in mind several maxims:

-Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

-When people show you who they are, believe them.

-You teach people how to treat you.

-"This is the way of an adulterous woman. She consumes a man, then wipes her mouth and says 'I have done nothing wrong.'"

OMG - That was hard to read... the way you keep getting back on the roller coaster expecting it to do something different.

Also, I've seen posts on here that say I should ask to see the phone, I should ask to see records of communications. Is that a good idea?

Part of me thinks, if I have to ask for those things, and I have that little trust in her...then I already have my answer.

She has lied to you how many times now? How many times has she said they have broken up and yet... they contined? And you think you should just trust her now? No. She needs to prove herself trustworthy.

The problem is that you are happy with crumbs. She drops a few reconcile crumbs and you think THIS IS IT!!! SHE GETS IT!!!

At this point she should be moving mountains. She should be getting herself back onto the family plan, she shouldn't be visiting her mother alone for the weekend, she should be giving up free access to all of her media. She shouldn't be removing her search history... she's not. She's not in IC... she's not reading books on what she needs to regain your trust... she's not doing anything but dropping a few crumbs when it looks like you plan to divorce her.

You need to stop trying to "TRUST" her because that's what marriage is about because she has to earn that back. It's on her to regain your trust.

I just see you continuing to do the same stuff you did prior to finding SI in hopes she will snap out of it...

Also, when she feeds you the line about you causing the affair or it takes two people... thing you can tell her..

"I will take %50 percent of the blame for problems in the marriage but the affair is 100% on you. The affair is what's causing our marriage to end.

Please get off this rollercoaster. She isn't takeing your threats to divorce her seriously. Also, you need to out her affair. Tell her mother so that she can keep an eye on her daugher if she visits again.

I’m gonna give it a little more time

I’m wondering what you think that little more time will accomplish that 5 months hasn’t already achieved?

HoldingTogether said it very well (as well as others here) so I won’t rehash what they said.

But what I will add, is this. (I will make up numbers but the concept is true).

By Giving her time and letting her String you along you have maybe a 5% chance of her coming to her senses and doing true work to help you heal and rebuild your marriage. It may be less than that. Letting her have time to continue to every day still pine for, communicate with, sext, possibly secretly Meet the AP allows her to drive the spikes into the heart of your relationship deeper and deeper.

This mode of operation where she dangles little carrots above your head to get you to take baby steps in limbo while she continues loving, lusting for and desiring the POSOM over you will keep you another day, week, month from finding happiness in your life again. It’s a miserable existence.

Where as completely pulling the plug, pushing her hidden romance into the light of day and making it her ONLY option without two men fighting over her and her ego, actually will have 20-30% chance of waking her up and realizing the horrible destruction she has reigned over her relationship and family and actual start to take immediate action to repair what she has destroyed.

Both paths have D as the primary possibility. But ending the nice guy route is the only path that really has any chance of getting you the possibility of rebuilding and eventually reconciliation.

So when BS’s say things like “I’m gonna give her time, because I am fighting for my family” I say “I understand the feeling, but in actuallity you are not fighting for your family at all”.

If you are truly fighting for your family, you do it by accepting none of the bullshit she is handing you, filing for divorce immediately, exposing the Affair to a handful of appropriate family members and close friends, and stopping contact with your wayward spouse immediately, letting her know you will not take her bulahit anymore (by communicating something like I said in the sample letter) and not only telling her “go be with him” but also “I do not want you anymore, I am no longer an option for partner for you”.

That is what “fighting for your marriage looks like”. Sorry to be so harsh, but what you are doing is not fighting for your marriage. Instead it is ENABLING THE AFFAIR.

If that is your goal, continue on your current path. But if it were me, I would not continue your operating mode one more day hour minute or second.

If it were me. I would communicate what I and others here recommend this afternoon, rip offf the bandaid, and immediately begins focusing on myself and detaching from her.

That’s my opinion and I hope you will consider it.

My guess is your marriage is over either way. But the odds are much better Of trying to save it with doing it the way the brain trust here who have experienced, thought about, discussed and studied infidelity for decades and determined that certain actions are much better than others.

I wish you well no matter what you decide.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 9:23 PM, October 15th (Thursday)]

I’m sorry you are going through this. If you decide to separate, and I fully believe you should, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the amount of mental bandwidth freed up by not playing marriage police. It is so incredibly exhausting to always be in investigative mode be it looking for continued contact between her and OM or microanalyzing your interactions with her.

"I will take %50 percent of the blame for problems in the marriage but the affair is 100% on you. The affair is what's causing our marriage to end.

Actually don't even take 50 percent for the marriage. Why? Because it often turns out that WS's were lying about so many other things and causing dysfunction and misery on other fronts in the marriage before the adultery as a kind of precursor or "predictive programming" that helped them rationalize what they wanted to do. You'll start to see this increasingly as the rose-colored glasses come off. She's not that special. In fact, she ain't special at all.

No, I have no interest in an open marriage and that has been made clear to WW.

I’m going to give it a little more time, but decisions need to be made.

This quote is extremely troubling. Basically you are right now LYING to yourself.

Your wife has a boyfriend, and he is not you. She has had a boyfriend for 5 months. It has been out in the open between the two of you all this time. So 5 months has passed already...her putting another man first, her blaming you for her awful decisions, etc. Where the hell are your limits and how could they not have been reached yet? How much more of "a little bit more time" do you need.

At some point the anger you have been stuffing down trying to nice your wife back to you, after how horribly she treated you will come raging up. Both at her, AND also at yourself--for not sticking up for yourself better.

And why do you and she need to be seeing a MARRIAGE counselor anyway--so she can blame you or your marriage for her bad choices? She was the one who decided to cheat!

Please, wake up soon!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:52 PM, October 15th (Thursday)]

Marriage counseling is a black maw of despair and wasted time and energy in the wake of infidelity.

Marriage counselors do not know how to cope properly with infidelity, and the latest science on betrayal trauma is increasingly proving how ill equipped marital counselors are on this front.

It is absolutely pointless and will only enable her to blameshift and pressure you to rugsweep (and you're already doing a decent job of rugsweeping without any extra help).

Please listen to the advice you're getting here. You will get better results if you act on it, worse results if you don't.

RUN !!! FAST !!! DO NOT EVEN LOOK BACK !!!

HOLY SHIT!!!

I truly hope neither of your daughters are showing similar personalities like your deranged, psychotic (IMHO) WW,

how anyone can treat their loved one like this is completely mind boggling!!

It’s degrading, humiliating, soul destroying etc to be cheated on period...however her actions & treatment on top of the betrayal puts her on a whole other level.

Get off this roller coaster, it should of ended a long time ago!!

AMUSEMENT/ ENTERTAINMENT, CIRCUS PARK IS NOW CLOSED!!!!

(Don’t know what you call them where you are)

I'm not sure if I can live with the OP looming. He will always be there.

She's treating your marriage as an open marriage. Period. Plus, from what you describe, it appears she is pining for the AP.

Here is what I would suggest you say:

"Wife, I love you. I know you have feelings for the AP, and I respect that. I want you to be happy. Therefore, I want you to know that you are free to pursue your relationship with the AP. But not as my wife. I do not want an open marriage and I will not share you with another man. Therefore, I am divorcing you."

Man you guys are harsh. I get it. I hear you loud and clear. I’m this close (visual - thumb and forefinger pinched together) to doing everything you lay out here.

Few things…1) We told the kids. When I forced the issue to tell the kids we were getting divorced, I noticed a change in her.

2) Then I found this site about a week ago and my attitude and my demeaner have changed completely. She has begun to lean in. I’ve implemented the 180 stuff and I believe she is reacting to that. I can sense it.

3) The last major blowout we had she said, “I’m trying, I’m doing what you asked, I’ve agreed to no contact with him and I’ve had no contact with him…can we just go a few days without you threatening divorce.” That’s why I say I’m OK with more time. I’m not good at confrontation and I usually start yelling, so I’d like to have a cooling off period. It was hard for me to go 2-3 days with out picking a fight, it’s been about 10 days without fight at the moment. Also, the healing library FAQ says this “It is also not unusual for it to take the WS 2-3 attempts at NC for it to stick. It’s like an alcoholic, the first step admitting there is a problem and then working to stop drinking.” Any contact after July 4th was initiated by OP. I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt here. The records I have from the family plan show that all contact was initiated by him and contact was few and far between (about 6 weeks of records after July 4, before she moved her phone). June was a nightmare (I know August vacation…that f-----g phone, that f-----g GD phone, hard to get over that one).

4) She doesn’t hide the phone like she used to.

5) I believe the affair is over. Many of your assumptions are that she still contacts him constantly and may be going to see him. I’ve been watching the mileage on her car, it would be hard for her to do the 140 mile round trip without me noticing. I don’t believe she has seen him since July 4th. I also believe the texting, all contact for that matter has stopped. Call me a sucker if you like, but that’s what I believe. Also, she has slipped a couple of times with her phone by setting it down without closing it…I’ve looked, no texts, calls, or messenger (I know, I’m an auditor, the answer is yes of course she could have deleted them). They are no longer friends on facebook and he has been removed from her contacts. I have a plan to get the records from her phone, stay tuned. That’s the other reason for more time. I want to wait a couple more weeks to see if any contact occurred. He seems to wait a week or two then does a “hey, how’s it going” contact.

I understand the no more Mr. nice guy. Believe me when I tell you I am out the door on any indication of contact (or she’s out the door, not sure how that is going to work). I will be “out the door” one way or the other and have no problem filing for divorce outside mediation if she chooses not to go that route.

I thank you for your candid, painful truths. I’ll update as time goes on. I hope I can help others here some day.

As of today, I’m still married. I plan to be through the end of the month at least. I’m going to draft my own “dear john” letter with some of the wording offered by Stevesn and Thumos and keep it in my back pocket.

DanielJK:

Keep doing what you are doing. Be vigilant. Watch her actions, not her words. You have your head on straight. You will receive a lot of different opinions and advice. There are a lot of wise people here who have been through this and want to save you from the mistakes and pain they suffered. Both R and D are acceptable paths out of infidelity. You get to decide which path is best for you. It’s your life. You will receive support whatever path you choose. Take the advice you can use and leave the rest. Good luck.