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My WS keeps saying "it takes 2." I'm not taking that any more. She made the decision to cheat.

My WS literally told me this a few days ago. "It takes 2 to tango." He said this about him & me re HIS affair. I'm like, no, not accepted. He wants to renew our marriage vows (we are now 3 years out) & I said no way. Until he can see that he and only he is to blame for his choices, then hes not a safe person for me to do those things with.

check out my story (click on my name) and you may see some similarities.

WalkingHome

I hear ya.

Not ready to burn down the playhouse...yet.

Matches and gas are ready though.

In a holding pattern at the moment, but getting very close to getting out.

I told my kids two weeks ago that divorce is likely, that was probably the biggest hurdle. Getting that off my chest was a relief. I forced the issue and I think the OS was shocked that I put it out there.

I've been trying to "focus on me" for the last two weeks.

It's a weird human power struggle that we engage in...I lean back, she leans in. Very strange.

The1stWife

I know, I look back and see myself doing the pick me dance, so embarrassing. I’m not doing it anymore, thank God for this website.

I’m in a holding pattern at the moment…no more begging her to stay (so embarrassed that I did that), I told her that I’m ready for mediation when she is. I’m not living together if she wants to continue.

Problem is, this is the third time she said it is over. I know the right thing to do is just leave…but I’m just not there yet.

I don't have a lot to add that hasn't already been said. Holy crap though! She is definitely emotionally abusing you. My WH was not quite this bold, but he did carry on text messages right in front of me, so this definitely hits home for me. She needs some serious therapy to figure out why she is so awful. I can't even imagine doing this to somebody!

I know, I look back and see myself doing the pick me dance, so embarrassing.

I will say on this though that you have no reason to be embarrassed. We do things for a whole host of reasons. Trying to save your marriage is nothing to be embarrassed by. Just know that you don't have to continue taking her abuse. You can stand on your own!

cf2018

"Even if your wife stops everything right now, are you really winning?"

I know. Someone posted to me "Leave her, it will eat away at your soul."

I think they may be right. It eats away at the soul. Every time I hear the text notification go off on the phone...when she goes to work is she actually at work? When she visits her mom without me (like this past weekend) is she making the short trip to his house?

It's been 5 months and I have people tell me "you're a lightweight...I know people who have stayed in marriages for years like this."

OK, but I'm not sure how much more I can take.

Not going to repeat what others have said but one thing deserves repeat. The disrespect factor.

It's at level of that's uncommonly cruel. She's so fearless of your awareness of her affair she flaunts it. Although you've repeatedly seen her texts, she's not made much of an attempt to hide her phone, and I'm beginning to wonder if this is some form of intentional, passive humiliation to further weaken you. Leaving her phone out in plain site is something I've never read about in my three years on this site and I've read hundreds of posts.

It's hard for a woman to want the man she doesn't respect. If anything it's the man who's capable of moving on that earns the respect. The question is how can you re-earn it, if not from her, for yourself? One thought is to stop announcing what you're going to do and just do it. She sees your threats of divorce, etc. as a ploy to get her to stop communicating with her AP, but you lost her believability when you threatened divorce, she phoned and said let's work it out and you immediately turned around, went home and hugged her. I winced when reading this because I knew what was to follow.

Respect is earned by making tough decisions, acting upon them with conviction and staying resolute to see it through. And then doing it again. From what I can tell she's never had to respond to your convictions, however you've responded to hers plenty of times, so it's you in pursuit of her while she's in pursuit of him.

Maybe start pursuing your future and a future better for your kids, which doesn't include her because she wants someone else and if means losing you and your family so be it. She's as certain of not being a candidate for reconciliation as one could possibly be. You mention your kids. With her present state, I'm not sure it's even healthy for your kids as she's chosen another man over there father so her concern is not you or the kids, it's her. She's made her choice however the question is when will you believe it and respond accordingly? She's ruthless, so expect no mercy or compassion.

tikismom

The roller coaster is awful. I would not wish this on anyone. I start to feel good about the relationship, then a text comes in...I start to feel good about the relationship, then I find an unusual internet search...I start to feel good about the relationship, then the internet history is completely deleted. I may be too naïve, but I feel like it may be finally over

It sounds like you are still together?

We've met with a mediation attorney 3 times now...but put it on hold at the moment.

I'm not sure if I can live with the OP looming. He will always be there...they were apart for 26 years, what's another x years or months. Are they just waiting for the right time? It eats me alive.

tikismom

The roller coaster is awful. I would not wish this on anyone. I start to feel good about the relationship, then a text comes in...I start to feel good about the relationship, then I find an unusual internet search...I start to feel good about the relationship, then the internet history is completely deleted. I may be too naïve, but I feel like it may be finally over

It sounds like you are still together?

We've met with a mediation attorney 3 times now...but put it on hold at the moment.

I'm not sure if I can live with the OP looming. He will always be there...they were apart for 26 years, what's another x years or months. Are they just waiting for the right time? It eats me alive.

We are still together. I don't rec doing what I did though the way I did it. I do have very young kids though, so that weighed a lot on me. I would do things very differently if I could go back. I was scared. What I do know now is I am no longer scared & I will not allow ANY bad behavior at all. I have all my ducks in a row. I will leave if this ever happens again at any level, with original AP or another.

I do worry to a degree about AP as they had a strong history together (and during A, they said soul mates & true love) My SIL (WS sister) is friends with the AP & remains loyal & in contact with her. Its extremely upsetting & another way that I could see contact somehow starting again through this connection as you said, it feels like AP is looming since there was that history from prior to our marriages.

As horrible as it feels she really is only giving you 1 option at this point right??? She's forcing your hand. You can't live like this. There is only 1 way forward for you to be able to keep your sanity.

Also I want to tell you that you are a much better person than I am...because if I knew my WS was texted OM right in front of me I would snatch that phone up and break that motherfucker any time it made a sound!!

I did not read the entire first post. But, from what I read, youbdid the pick me dance on steroids.

Holy smokes, what tolerance.

As your counselor asked, why do you want/ allow yourself to be treated like this?

Get a divorce. And, sorry this shit hurts like hell.

There is NO reason for you to be (or feel) "embarrassed".

We all get it...,,what you've been going through is NOT easy!!

It's like something or someone has kidnapped your spouse and you don't recognize who and what they've become.

However, as Tony Robbins has said over the years, "sticking your head in the sand and hoping it will go away isn't going to cut it. You can get bent out of shape that there are weeds in your garden and freak out OR you can just pull the damn weeds out and be done with it".

Your wife is a "weed".

She's making your life (your garden---which is your peace, your joy, your happiness, your integrity, your dignity and self respect and boundaries etc etc) pure hell and you're standing by and letting her do it.

Why?

In my opinion it's because you're still in denial.

Why are you still in denial?

Because FEAR is controlling you and it's got you frozen like a deer in the headlights.

You're afraid of 29 yrs with this woman coming to an end and SO much of your identity is tied up into the two of you.

We all get it.

Life is WAY too damn short to go through it being under ATTACK and DISRESPECTED, not by strangers, but by THE ONE PERSON WHO IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE YOUR BACK!!

Your wife is a coward and she's evil.

If she had issues with the marriage she could have addressed them with you OR she could have just ended the marriage and went her way.

No she was too chicken shit to do this.

I know you're concerned about your kids but their both older and they'll be ok.

You NEED to take care of yourself.

Go back and read your original post and pretend it's someone else that wrote it. One thing that SCREAMS off the page is this woman does NOT love you!!

I know it hurts to hear this, but also know, that this woman does NOT love herself either. She's one FUCKED UP EVIL BITCH!!!

I know you have a lot of years with this woman but is this really how you want to live your life??

Even if she were to have an aha moment and do a 180 and want to make this work with you can you truly say after everything she's said and done that you would EVER trust her again?

You'd always be wondering when is this EVIL PSYCHO BITCH going to come out again and make your life a living hell.

Again please do NOT feel "embarrassed" but my friend, another thing that sticks out in your posts is the lack of ANGER!!!

Instead of being driven by fear why don't you tap into the anger that has GOT to be swirling around inside of you and use this to TAKE ACTION.

You know what's on the other side of being away from this crazy lying cheating psycho??? PEACE, HAPPINESS & JOY!!

You want this nightmare to end?

Just like anything else it starts with making a choice.

The choice is looking yourself in the mirror and saying this ENDS RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!

Than take action.....go see your attorney and actually follow through and file the paperwork to divorce this bitch!!

There is NO REASON to be holding on to the match.

STRIKE THE MOTHER FUCKER and end this nightmare.

You deserve WAY better.

She doesn't love you but that's not the issue.

YOU need to love YOU!!

Stand up for yourself.....the sooner you do the faster this nightmare ends.

The roller coaster is awful. I would not wish this on anyone. I start to feel good about the relationship, then a text comes in...I start to feel good about the relationship, then I find an unusual internet search...I start to feel good about the relationship, then the internet history is completely deleted. I may be too naïve, but I feel like it may be finally over

I believe that is called the hopium pipe.

You are getting high on any shred of good news. Your wife is getting high because she has the attentions of two men. She's never moved to change very much because you are always giving her the hit whenever she so much as glances in your direction. Why should she change?

I am someone here who got left for the AP. He was a guy she knew before we ever met. "Just a friend" as I understood it at the time. Apparently there was more to it than that, in her head or whatever.

A key factor is whether the AP (affair partner) is a potential viable partner. Many cases here, the AP, the affair, is based on fantasy. Not in your case nor mine. If AP is potentially viable, I think the odds of recovering the marriage are far, far less.

It sucks that we dedicate years to these people. But it's a sunk cost today. I just want to lay it out to you based on my situation.

DanielJK

Sorry you are here. Sorry your WW can’t be bothered with integrity or honor. Don’t feel bad. We have all made mistakes going through the infidelity grinder. Take care of you. Exercise and take time for your hobbies and interests. Get out with friends.

You know you can’t do the pick me dance. You can’t nice her back.

Bottom line: always value yourself. You deserve better.

It looks to me like your W is limerent (it looks like it should be 'limerance', but the creator called it 'limerence') and gone from your M. You've done what you could to bring her back, but that hasn't worked.

First, it's been only 5 months. The SI rule of thumb for recovery is 2-5 years. The grief, anger, fear and shame that you've felt is essentially unavoidable - the pain comes with being betrayed, not from doing R or D.

Second, you've done well in separating yourself from your W's continued crap. Lots of BSes stick around with unremorseful WSes for longer. Some people stay with unremorseful WSes for years.

Third, it looks like you're working on getting through your internal obstacles to pulling the trigger on D in IC. Is that correct? I ask because a mediated D takes 2, but you don't need mediation - you can file unilaterally. CT is an equitable distribution state, after all.

Fourth, in the scheme of things, you're probably within months of taking definitive action, and this whole period is likely to be a very small part of your life. The pain diminishes over time. I know '2-5 years' sounds excruciating - but time flows pretty swiftly.

My reco is to start looking at the positive aspects of D. Personally, my plan B was to travel to a specific destination and live and work there for 6-12 months and do all sorts of things I can't do with my W, for one reason or another. I like plan that B, but I liked my W more, and she has turned out to be a great candidate for R.

Fifth, I recommend you read and consider implementing the 'Simplified 180' - https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=598080.

Note that it's possible that your W will snap out of her limerence in the foreseeable future. If that happens, you'll have to respond. Just remember that you're a free agent. If you think your W has become remorseful, you can give her a chance, and you can continue D - your choice.

If you still hold out hope for R, I urge you to identify your observable requirements for R - NC is not enough - and lay them out for your W. If she agrees or offers acceptable alternatives, R may be possible. Your post says, however, that you don't see her getting out of limerence any time soon.

Ordinarily my advice is to go for what you want. In your case, you wanted R - but R takes 2 people firmly grounded in reality and willing to work hard. In your case, your W pretty clearly is still in her fantasy; as such, she is simply not a candidate for R, which she has shown multiple times.

If she comes around and you do want to give her a chance, make sure you have good answers to the question, 'What's different this time?'

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:10 PM, October 14th (Wednesday)]

Three additional things:

perhaps "gaslighted."

1. Start being more direct. There's no "perhaps" here. She has gaslit the holy fucking hell out of you. Sorry to be profane and I don't do it often -- but damn, son.

And yes, it's abuse. Terrible abuse.

2. Second - be skeptical with all that red pill stuff. Rational Male is well-written but my caution is that everything has a grain of truth, but is not *the* truth. There is some truth in red pill dogma, in spite of denials by some, but that's mixed in with a whole lotta crap and a big helping of bitter misogyny far too often.

People cannot be reduced to simple binary evolutionary psychology robots who are pre-programmed to carry out certain scripts. That's basically deterministic thinking -- like the universe is one of those click clack balls on an office desk. Humans have meta-cognition, executive functions in our frontal lobes and neuroplasticity (the ability to physically change our own brains). We're super mutants, essentially, insofar as nothing else like us exists that we know about. So don't buy into the narrow simplistic thinking that one way of thinking about human relationships provides. It may be "comforting" but still misleading.

3. On whoever told you you're a lightweight. No you're not. And you're not obligated to shackle yourself to pain and misery just because some other dumb ass decided to do that.

So don't do it. It's your life.

I understand wanting to stay and not wanting to see your family implode. Because you're a good man. Because you're a kind man. Because you are an empathetic man with ethics. I mean, Ive stayed for FOUR YEARS after DDay and I'm still not divorced, although I'm clear about wanting it now. I

don't want other men caught up in the limbo I've endured and the best way to do that is to take decisive action.

Moving more quickly once you have clarity is the way to go. Don't dither because of the sunk costs fallacy or anything else. Your WW isn't giving you anything to work with and is using cold business language like "what are your terms?" (Like, hey lady, how about you stop whoring around for starters?")

Anyway stop beating yourself up so much. This happens to too many people in the world for you to feel like you are some special case who didn't see this coming.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:06 PM, October 14th (Wednesday)]

duplicate post.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:29 PM, October 14th (Wednesday)]

I too put up with disrespectful behavior from my WH. It also pertained to improper interaction between him and an ex girlfriend. When I got to the end of my rope and said "guess what? You win because I just don't care anymore.." It was like the light came on and he Realized how his actions had damaged our relationship. We have currently been married for 42 years, but I had to be honest with myself and I realized I deserved better and I was worth it. I also decided I could not and would not live with the disrespect. Sometimes facing the fears of the unknown can be very liberating.

I think there is general consensus here how you should proceed. When you don’t get a lot of conflicting advice you should probably consider it to be good, which I see you are doing.

The one thing I’d add to it all is that at this point you need to tell her you are not interested in being a partner to the person she is right now.

If you find my advice on lots of threads here, you’ll see me say this often. “Betrayed spouses somehow mistakenly think that if their Wayward Partner simply ends the affair and goes no contact with their Affair Partner then things can just go back to the way they were. That what happened the last month or six or year or years somehow is magically wiped away.”

But the exact opposite is true. The old marriage not only can’t just restart as it was before. No. It’s dead. Hold a funeral. The fibers of that relationship, what held it together, have been destroyed forever by the cheating partner. It will never be the same.

And having that cheater simply say, it’s over, I’m sorry, I’ll work to change (which I haven’t even heard your WW say yet) doesn’t mean reconciliation even starts at that point.

NO! It is not until the cheater actually does the work to change, can convey empathy and remorse, true remorse as in feeling the pain more than their emotionally injured partner, digs deep in therapy to understand why they did what they did, and takes every step possible to be safe as a spouse, that rebuilding can EVEN START. That point doesn’t come for months or possibly even years.

RECONCILIATION IS NOT STARTED OR PROMISED UNTIL YHE CHEATER CAN MAKE THOSE THINGS HAPPEN. As i said, It takes months. It takes years. And when they finally become that person, then the Betrayed Partner can decide if they are interested in trying to rebuild a new marriage.

My friend, from what you have conveyed about your wife’s attitude and approach, you are no where near that point. You’re no closer than you were at DDay 5 months ago.

She still has a place in her heart for him. She hasn’t lost that. She has only artificially made a play at trying to placate you. She isn’t doing any real work. It’s all just words and not very good ones at that.

So in the spirit of what everyone here has told you, I’ll offer this sample approach and words. If it were me, I’d tell her something very simple and direct and then move on with my life. Don’t wait around. If she’s gonna do the work to change, she has to drive it, not you.

If you are truly going to find a path out of this, you have to State honestly and clearly what you need and want. You need to be completely honest to the most dishonest person in your life. Ironic, huh?

Here’s an example of what I’d say.

“You are my wife and i have always loved you. But i will not and can not share you emotionally and physically with another man. The last 6 months have shown me i am no better than second best in your heart. And I’m not sure i am that far up the ladder.

But I’m not holding my breath. It would take years of hard work for you to ever become someone i would consider safe enough to let in my heart again. I don’t see any way right now that you have it in you to do that work. You’re looking for something i obviously can’t provide you. I wish you luck in finding it. “

That’s it. Then stop talking relationship with her. It’s way too early for that anyway. She Stuck a knife in the center of your heart and while you are bleeding out she’s telling you she’s giving you one last chance to be a good husband and win her love. Screw that.

Time to focus on you and for right now, a life without her. I hope you can bring yourself to do that.

And stop playing around w mediation. Just go on and file. Yes probably more expensive but worth EVERY PENNY. Perhaps filing will get her into mediation.

Lastly you DO NOT HAVE TO WAIT to have this discussion. You are a good guy, but that is your biggest weakness right now. Tell her what you two are doing is not working. Her actions have made it impossible for you to just go back to loving her while she continues to pine away and most likely communicate behind your back for the 4th time. You have the right to say what you need and move on until you get it.

So do that. Tell her and move on. If she chases you then great, it’ll be the first true time she does. Start believing you are the prize you truly are, and if not for her, then for your next great love. Believe in yourself. As for her, she’s giving you nothing to believe in.

I hope you will consider what we are all saying to you and truly take action. You have one life. Demand what you need to enjoy living it.

Take care.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:55 PM, October 14th (Wednesday)]

Your WW has put you through hell. This story is absolutely horrible. You will ultimately divorce her or she will leave you for the OP. The issue is how much longer do you want to let her emotionally abuse you until you have had enough. You are the husband, not that other creep, but she treats you like dirt. Divorce isn't fun but it is lightyears ahead of living with an abusive cheating wife. Move quickly and do not let her persuade you differently. You have given her way too many bites of the apple. Good luck, and I truly feel for you. Been there and done it. I did what had to be done. But, I realized later that I took way too long in pulling the cord.

She told me about all the things I’ve done in the past that led her to cheat. I admit I am not perfect and could have been better. I have changed since this and am now trying to make up for those things (I think I may have been doing the “pick me” dance as I’ve seen it described on this site. Embarrassing.) I didn’t show enough affection, I didn’t hold her hand enough, I didn’t support her when she tried to get the kids to do homework, I didn’t stand next to her enough at family gatherings, I didn’t do…I didn’t go…I didn’t help with... Sure, she told me about these things in the past and perhaps I should have done more. I didn’t know I was on the verge of losing my family because of it though. In March she sent me a text that said “I love you and I’m lucky to have you.” She would periodically say “I love you and I appreciate you.”

I want to let you in on a little secret - NO ONE is perfect. No one's relationship is perfect. Even those of us in the best marriages, even the ones who are no longer with their cheater, have a little list of things we'd like to change about our partner in an ideal world. And it's just as petty as "didn't hold hands enough" and "didn't stand close enough at family gatherings". You know what? That's okay because those petty little things aren't a big enough deal to do any real damage to the relationship. They're just tiny little things a spouse would wave a magic wand and change if they could as much as someone would want to change their eye color permanently or get clearer, fresher skin if they could. It's NORMAL to have these kinds of issues in the marriage.

This is what is most important:

I have changed since this and am now trying to make up for those things

You heard her. You made changes. It's not fair of her to hold the past against you because:

I didn’t know I was on the verge of losing my family because of it though.

She never made it clear to you that these were affecting the marriage the way that they were. She still was affectionate. She still said she loved you. She acted normal 98% of the time and then occasionally had little complaints about normal marital issues. And I doubt that your marriage looked like a barren wasteland where you hadn't hugged, kissed, or held hands for years. I'm guessing that you were still having intimacy. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like to me she was complaining that she got 5 handholds when she wanted 10.

Sure, you could have risen to be superman BUT it probably would not have changed anything because cheating has NOTHING to do with what you did or didn't do. You could have been THE most affectionate spouse ever and she'd still be hitting up this XBF and lying about it because YOU have nothing to do with her perception of HIM being the "one that got away". You have no control over her ever-growing need for validation and how she needed more than what any normal marriage could ever provide for her. At no point does she acknowledge that every complaint she had was EASILY fixable had she taken the initiative. If she had an issue with where you stood during family events, she could have walked over and stood next to you. Problem solved! If she wanted her hand held, she could have reached out and held your hand. She could have said, "I want to hold your hand." So why didn't she? Because she wanted more and she didn't want to be the one to have to make any changes to get what she wanted. She wanted to be catered to. She wanted you to instinctively know what she needed and given it to her without her having to ask. That's IMPOSSIBLE. No one could do that. So she settled with complaining to you while she sought out a secondary "feel good" supply from him.

At the heart of cheating is selfishness and your WW is a taker, not a giver. That's not on you. No matter what happens, please forgive yourself for being human and not being able to live up to the ridiculous standards she set for you while doing very little to improve things on her side of the fence.

I'll have more to post later...