SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

"180 - means you do not open yourself up to her for any more hurts. It is to help you find your legs and balance again, not to make her wake up, because brother that isn't going to happen. She is Not remorseful, she is going to white knuckle it for a few weeks until things get comfortable again, and then she will go right back to it. She is as predictable as the cold in January."

This may come as a surprise, but I certainly believe more than not that you have the correct bet. Her mask slips occasionally, "I wanted to be single". And of course, her actions speak louder than any words. Or denial that a clear cut lie is even a lie, she uses euphemisms for the word lie, or says my behavior is why she "had to lie", or one of my favorites now "I was confused, it wasn't a lie". I am doing more of 180 than I've shared. I am not open for more hurt, I am watching, listening, and gathering information. I've slept full nights since my decision to focus on me, I'm working almost at full capacity, I'm doing my activities. And when she speaks my emotions are very low level, it's like I'm a court reporter taking notes. I go back and ledger everything so I can compare to previous statements and my statements which she can either get completely wrong or mischaracterizes. I talk about WW on her, but the amount of focus I have on me in daily life is the preponderance of my day.

I do want to see what R process yields, but I'm doing so with a very little optimism that she has what it takes to change. She says she accepts responsibility for the affairs, but never for the lies, betrayal, and the "acceptance" is always qualified by reasons (like the caregiving). Now, I think the reasons are real motivators and people can become weaker willed. But there are the outside motivations and then her own choices where she did all the activity to set up and actively engage in a double life of adulatory. She never speaks to her own bad choices and seems to want to avoid figuring out what character flaws, emotional flaws, and thinking flaws led to those choices. If one won't examine the internal causes for their own selfishness, then they are dangerous. I know this, I know the danger of being with her, and I accept that for the small chance that I may enjoy a better M or that I get some peace that I did all I could before making a new life for myself. No regrets is a priority for me in a way it may not be for others.

I think you’ll look back on this moment one day and think, “Damn, I would’ve been so much better off if she had just left.”

You may be right, I actually laughed at your comment, thank you for a well needed chuckle! I do want to be calm and rational when either of us decide to leave. If she chooses to leave again, I'm ready to let her go. Really and truly ready to make no pursuit and see it as my decision - not hers. If I choose to go, I have a plan on how I'll do so. This means a lot to me that either way, I'm deciding. I know her leaving again sounds no different than the 1st time, but I was unprepared and had not truly began focusing on my self. Now, I see how I'm in control of me, not her.

With the two quotes above, it looks like you are still gunning for R, and waiting for HER to make a decision on where your M goes

Not exactly. I'm gunning to see what she does during R (not what she says, but her actions). I'm focused on me and gathering information for me. I know many think her affair activity and actions so far are enough, and it could be that it should be enough. But, I've decided I want to see her actions in R and after some counseling of her own. This is the last bit of my figuring out who I thought she was and who she is. It could be many here see her for who she is, I don't discount those opinions. I think the most important thing is how at peace I am. I'm not rug sweeping, I'm actually observing with eyes wide open. I'm at peace that I an take as long as I want or decide tomorrow. This is a powerful realization, so powerful that it's changed my entire outlook. I see how my own ability to choose is mine and not based on what she wants. I have my ability to choose centered on me and what will benefit me. It's entirely possible she becomes the perfect R partner and I still decide what's best for me is D. What is best for me is the priority, and best for me right now is observing her and keeping a careful journal so I can check any feelings against reality.

Very high risk IMO

In some ways yes. I'm clear eyed about the risks and I re-evaluate them every day. Not risks to R, or risks to M, but personal risks to me.

Apparition,

I think your sex life with WW will take one of two paths. Not discounting other outcomes.

1) She continues to cheat or want to cheat, sex will be good because WW is getting it on the side and will have something to fantasize about when she is with you.

2) She will not cheat, sex will be good during the hysterical bonding period, but that will end and she will become bored with you as she is not being stimulated. This will be especially painful for you as it will seem like the ultimate rejection.

Either option sucks for you.

My W opted for 1) & 2) with religion as a sexless substitute for sex.

I don't think you can do a 180 AND try to reconcile. The two things are mutually exclusive in a way. Maybe I'm wrong, but the 180 is about you fortifying yourself emotionally and detaching from her. That is not conducive to R. But, whatever.

I don't think you can do a 180 AND try to reconcile. The two things are mutually exclusive in a way. Maybe I'm wrong, but the 180 is about you fortifying yourself emotionally and detaching from her. That is not conducive to R. But, whatever.

Agree, I'm not doing a pure 180, I just took some of what was helpful now. But there may very well be a point I go a pure 180. I do believe I'm getting less out of 180 for watering it down and deluding it's goal, but that's okay, everything I do now is slow and in steps. No rushing myself anymore. I like being in observer mode right now. I know its a temporary place and difficult decisions await me, but each day I am more back together. Eventually a more whole me can face those next decisions and I'll be better informed when I do. You're not wrong, you are right, but even the limited 180 has been core to my personal recovery. Knowing it is there to go fully into is another important aspect of my peace of mind.

Apparition.

Sit on the fence as long as you want to. As long as you need to. As long as it is still comfortable. You are right that it is temporary, but you can find it tolerable for a while while you get more information. Just understand that the information could push you either way off the fence.

I did the same. I don't regret it. I'm not upset I wasted time or gave my WW as many chances as I could stand. Eventually you will know you can't sit there anymore and you'll be very sure of why that is.

Good luck with everything, it's a painful and trying journey with many ups and downs.

By the way, I was thinking about posting a thread, "Greatest Hits", but don't have access to the other forums yet and I'm going too many directions to make the effort. But at least wanted to share here.

So, I discover that she kept her burner phone longer than disclosed, she'd fabricated a story about the battery failing, driving to a gas station while out of town, disposing of it on a very specific day. Lots of little details to sell it. So I say to her, "You fabricated the story about the destruction of the burner phone and that makes it harder to build trust on something you knew was an important detail to me"

She says, "I didn't fabricate the story, I just wasn't accurate."

You see, her aim was off, she just missed the target, it's not untruthful. Damn target just wouldn't hold still for her.

Surely this belongs on some sort of list somewhere. Anyone else have any "greatest hits"?

We often have a "stupid things cheaters say" thread.

You should have access to all forums,except the investigative forum. And BS can't start threads in the wayward forum. And there are threads in the ICR forum that are specific. But you should be able to post in the general, and reconciliation forum.

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:42 PM, November 23rd (Monday)]

Damn AP. Defensive much!

She can't even admit to non sexual acts?

You are up for this for the next several months?

My own personal lightbulb moment was when I realised whatever happened, I could not have my ExWBF back because I would never trust him to tell the truth again and I didn’t want to be told lies and have multiple D-days forever.

I hope you get some such moment. I am glad you have some peace at the moment but it is untenable long-term, your wife has no reason (or inclination is seems ) to be honest or truthful and there is no reason to expect that to change.

Damn man.

She is beyond help.

Are you going to counseling? If not please go.

You would be beyond in the right, and able to say you did all you could to walk away today.

She is outright lying, and then lying about lying.

Do you know what the first and last rule of a successful R is?

NO MORE LIES OF ANY KIND EVER AGAIN. No white lies, no minimization, no over exaggeration, no lies of omission, NO LIES. Period.

I think you need to focus on DETACH

Don't Even Think About Changing Her.

Again 180 is so you can focus on you, and I am glad that you are sleeping. But perhaps a licensed professional will help you find your way to save yourself.

She says, "I didn't fabricate the story, I just wasn't accurate."

Amnesty International called. They are lodging a protest in the UN about this continued torture of basic logic.

I'm at peace that I an take as long as I want or decide tomorrow. This is a powerful realization, so powerful that it's changed my entire outlook. I see how my own ability to choose is mine and not based on what she wants. I have my ability to choose centered on me and what will benefit me. It's entirely possible she becomes the perfect R partner and I still decide what's best for me is D. What is best for me is the priority, and best for me right now is observing her and keeping a careful journal so I can check any feelings against reality.

Bravo! This is a key moment and realisation. Keep it up, and every once in a while, look back to see how far you have come.

“I wanted to be single.” She said to you.

What a shocking, truthful declaration. It really sums it all up!

‘With friends like her, who needs enemies’.

IMHO you deserve much better.

Peace brother and take care.

Ron from Downunder.

[This message edited by ronjs at 12:06 AM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

Apparition,

I see no remorse in your wife, she seems to be, shall we say, deflecting the truth.

Her statement that she wanted to be single is also not something you can work with.

Give her what she wanted. Let her be single, she has already lived that life while having the comforts and amenities you provided. Give her her wish and let her live the single life, without her having you to drain like the Vampire she has been (maybe still is)

She has fired you as a husband, now you have only one responsibility, yourself. Cut that millstone from about your neck. Let her fly, crash and burn in order for you to float and prosper again.

That is what I would have done in your shoes and what I have done in the past.

She never speaks to her own bad choices and seems to want to avoid figuring out what character flaws, emotional flaws, and thinking flaws led to those choices. If one won't examine the internal causes for their own selfishness, then they are dangerous.

Apparition

I want to clarify something. Maybe you understand it.

In my opinion attempting reconciliation doesn’t even start until the WS has done the work to become a safe partner, fix what was Wrong in them and become a person who above all wants to help their spouse to heal from the emotional injury they themselves inflicted.

What you stated above leads me to believe she has not even taken the first step on that journey. The work to rebuild cannot even start until she nears the end of that work and she has not really even started.

You say she is working with a therapist. Is that an IC that specializes in Infidelity? If not, then she is doing the wrong work.

If I were going to define the period you are in now, I’d call it LIMBO. You are doing the right thing in not trying to lead her to the answers, but you are also staying with a partner who is at best doing the bare minimum to keep you in the house.

If you are going to be clear with her that she needs to step up, start showing that she gets the destruction she has caused and that she needs to start real introspection with an infidelity specialist and completely change her tune and approach to your interactions, then you also need to provide real consequences if she fails to do it.

After all she has done, with the attack on your soul she perpetrated, tell her she absolutely has focus on your pain above her own. And if she cannot do that. If she cannot accept the consequence of your pain is perhaps asking the same questions over and over, that when you express that pain that is a result of her actions and not yours and that in these early days after DDay she should focus her attention one what she can do to ease that hurt instead of exacerbating it, then it may be best that you and she separate for a while, if not forever.

Until you can truly show her that the way she is behaving is going to truly end the marriage she claims to desire, then I see little incentive for her to change. Thus, leaving you in a state of limbo.

As time goes by, I predict your patience for living without progressing will wane. And you are going to have to make good on threats to find your happiness again, on your own, by detaching and eventually moving on.

We see lots of WS’s here, and the few that truly get it can make recovery, especially in the early days, not “about themselves” but instead, about the partner they destroyed.

I see little recognition of that in your wife.

Take care....

As time goes by, I predict your patience for living without progressing will wane. And you are going to have to make good on threats to find your happiness again, on your own, by detaching and eventually moving on.

This is the direction it's going. While she is slowly working on a full disclosure, it's painfully slow and not a priority. I haven't asked what's taking her so long, as I don't look to her for answers right now. She has come to me a few times willing to talk around the edges and that's fine, I'll work within her parameters right now.

But what makes me think your statement is likely, is last night I put together another inconsistency. She has told some truth that I did not discover. Truth has been mixed with lies and minimizations. She will say every day, "You know what's important." I will say, "You are deciding for me what's important and is that how this should work?"

So I put together another important inconsistency. By important, it changes the time frame for certain activities and even where certain activities occurred, and how close they were to our married life. Not a detail that is just more of the same story, this hotel vs that hotel. Each time I put together something that she failed to share, I get a little more clear as to how she feels about me. She knows that pieces keep falling in place for me without her help. She knows this reduces our chance at R. Conclusion, she is ambivalent about R, her feelings for me are not what she professes, she is still selfish and not even seeing me blow apart is enough for her to prioritize me. So even my feeling bad about putting more of the puzzle together by myself is valuable information for me. Some say I have enough information. Perhaps, but I like this watchful place better than where I was and the next place I choose to go will be even better than this place.

Thank you all again for letting me vent and giving me feedback.

[This message edited by Apparition at 8:24 AM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

While she is slowly working on a full disclosure, it's painfully slow and not a priority.

Ever seen someone with a foot on the boat and a foot on the pier? Undecided?

They decide real sudden-like when the boat starts pulling away.

Sending strength!

She has come to me a few times willing to talk around the edges and that's fine, I'll work within her parameters right now.

Why is this fine? Why are you willing to work within her parameters? That isn’t getting clear of infidelity, it’s remaining mired in it. That isn’t the 180 either. It’s rugsweeping.

Apparition, what I’d ask is what is your goal for this stage?

You are unlikely to get to a place where you can say “ok I have 100%” of the truth, even if your WW says you have it, you are unlikely to believe her.

At some point you will have to make some decisions as to the direction of your own future. At the moment, I think you are simply avoiding taking any action or making decisions which, is ok as a temp stage but really, will not get you to a happier place overall.

So I think you need to work out what the goal or moving on point of this stage looks like. What has to happen for you to say ok I’ll leave or ok I’ll try reconcile? What is an actual achievable metric that you can say, she has done X so I’ll consider Y.

Otherwise you’ll remain in this passive state just existing together, where neither of you really does anything to progress the relationship or change it either by ending it or fixing it. This is not fixing anything.

Apparition, what I’d ask is what is your goal for this stage? You are unlikely to get to a place where you can say “ok I have 100%” of the truth, even if your WW says you have it, you are unlikely to believe her.

My goal is to enjoy the peace of mind that I've found for a bit. It's like flying in the eye of a storm, I know it won't last, but its giving me well deserved rest and each day I get stronger. I am also watching, my goal for watching is to build a new opinion of my wife based on how she is behaving now when I'm in need and based on what she's done. I'm not discounting our past, but I like getting information that isn't connected to my idealized vision of my wife.

Why is this fine? Why are you willing to work within her parameters? That isn’t getting clear of infidelity, it’s remaining mired in it. That isn’t the 180 either. It’s rugsweeping.

It's not fine in that it's acceptable behavior, it's fine in that it gives me more information of her priorities and what kind of spouse I can expect. Bad information is still quality information. Yes, I'm not committed fully to 180, by having one foot in R, it negates some of the best potential benefits for doing 180. However, I am still getting a lot of benefit out of spending the majority of my mental and physical energies on myself. I come here to vent, but 80% of my day is about me, not her, not R.

They decide real sudden-like when the boat starts pulling away.

Sending strength!

Received and thanks! I won't be threatening D. If I decide R is not what I want, then I will go let her know about D. Right now R is what I want, but I'm pessimistic given what I've shared with everyone. She has all the information she needs to do her work and work on R in a productive way.