SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello All. So very glad to see Friday is here. I am in the midst of hiring a replacement for my retirement and I have the adult version of senioritis. I am ready to be done.

Anyway, I have been thinking about this post for a little while now. I am not really asking for advice, it's one of those things that is just going to require time, patience, generosity, communication, etc. I think it's more I want to share a perspective/cautionary tale.

After my affair, of course sex changed. There were times of mind blowing HB, and then other times when it was pretty obvious I was getting (excuse the term) grudge fucked. I had read from many a BS, both male and female, that after DDAY they made sex all about them because it was the only way through it. So, I saw it as normal and figured it would run it's course as we worked through the non-bedroom stuff.

I did the things I thought would be best - try and initiate often, be creative, put effort and energy in that department and all the others. I have shared before that we had a great sex life prior, and that's the truth. I missed that a lot, but I did see it as the natural consequences of my actions and just assumed the balance would return at some point. I had bigger things to worry about.

Right before my husband's dday, things were getting back to normal. However, he still would often bring out porn to watch during. I didn't mind at first, again I had read so much here, I just figured that he needed some time to readjust and sometimes it was probably difficult for him to focus on me.

After his dday, I find I resent a lot of this and it's really turned me off. I feel like a masturbatory tool and it's unacceptable to me now. We have had a few times where I just stopped and left. In fact, I did so last night. I was *down there* and he pulls out his tablet and I literally can't even see his face around it. I tried to ignore it for a few minutes but then I just got so pissed he is lucky I didn't bite him. (I honestly had to resist the urge)

So now, he feels like I am trying to weaponize sex. Not because of the periods of abstinence, he gets that. But, I believe he feels I start stuff and run off on purpose to punish him for his affair. (I had initiated last night) On the other hand, he does say I am putting too much pressure on myself about this (and he is right that is my tendency). I plan to talk to him more about this over the weekend. We were able to say a few things to each other this morning that smoothed things out, but I had to go to work.

At some point, WW or not, long term there is only so much that can happen without resentments setting in. I have learned to air my resentments and not ignore them and that's a newer dynamic in our marriage as well. It's been part of my work. But, resentments about sex and sex do not coexist together very well.

I realized after having been accused of the weaponizing, I feel like he has weaponized sex also and I have allowed it in my shame and guilt. This part is more my issue than his, my boundaries need a readjustment. I think because his affair was so sexual and so often, that when he then brings in porn all the time, it feels like it's not me he's with. That he doesn't want to be with me, he just wants to get his rocks off. It's causing me to really loathe it, and I am seeing him in a very sinister way that's not helping at all.

He has his own share of issues due to my affair that also need worked through, and I recognize that now my lack of desire is triggering him too.

I will ask for what I want. I will ask him what he wants. We will work on it. But, I think it's something we try and express here sometimes but it gets so convoluted that it loses it's meaning.

I believe that maybe the weaponizing of the sex happens at the point of the affair because the cheating party causes the other person to see their sexuality as a negative/sinister thing. After all it's part of the weapon of mass destruction that set off the bomb in the marriage.

I realize it's not the only one, it's more what is between the WS's ears t most of the time, but this is much harder to navigate obviously from the BS side than the WS side. And it's severely hard as MH because now we both have these issues surrounding sex that are at odds with each other.

Quite a mess.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:37 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:37 PM, Friday, March 12th]

Your husband last night put porn BETWEEN you and him, physically and metaphorically. That is not ok. Ever. That is not the same thing as INVOLVING porn during sex. If both partners are comfortable with that, so be it.

I can’t speak to what a mad hatter BH/WH might feel during sex with WW/BW. I can say that sex with my WW after learning of her affair has been everything from HB, intensely intimate, to straight up grudge fucking her. The mind movies are very problematic. Maybe he’s got to focus not on you but on porn to avoid his own mind movies, whether they involve you and your AP or him and his.

Still, as a red blooded porn consuming grown ass man, I cannot fathom putting porn BETWEEN me and her during sex. I find your reaction to what he did last night to be completely fair and nearly inescapably predictable.

[This message edited by Wiseoldfool at 8:52 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

There is absolutely nothing wrong about stopping a sexual act that you’re not enjoying for any reason. That isn’t weaponizing sex; that’s taking yourself out of a situation that is uncomfortable and unpleasant for you.

If you were simply refusing sex because you’re trying to get an emotional reaction from him (ie, trying to provoke the pick-me dance) then I would say you’re being manipulative and to cut it out. But that’s not the case here.

Just because you cheated does not mean that you need to engage in sex acts that aren’t mutually pleasurable. If a BS is so resentful that they can’t engage in intimacy with their partner without being selfish or abusive than they should be abstain from sex until the relationship is healed to the point when they can engage in healthy intimacy again.

In your case as MHs, if you’re going to stay married, you have to work on trying to get on equal footing with one another and not take your power struggles into the bedroom.

Maybe he’s got to focus not on you but on porn to avoid his own mind movies, whether they involve you and your AP or him and his.

That's why I want along with it before. I understood that was just going to take some time for him to work through. But, now that his situation has occurred, I am not feeling patient about it.

I do want to make it clear, it wasn't as if he threw a fit that I stopped. He didn't. I was upset that we needed to stop, and his reaction at first was I was putting pressure on myself that didn't need to be there (I felt like that was BS to BS). But, then I started crying and spewing all my thoughts and I think because of that he THOUGHT I was punishing him.

So, just to be clear, this is more how our triggers are at odds with each other, not really that either of us has done anything wrong.

I find your reaction to what he did last night to be completely fair and nearly inescapably predictable.

Thank you. I did need to hear that, and I didn't know that I needed to hear that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:05 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

Hey there!

As a BS post DDay1 sex was HB and I made it all about me. I'm definitely in that club.

Up until AP tried to come back [hello HB again] making love was just coming back for me.

Now - I will say this. Sex [be it HB, grudge fuck, all abOut me, etc.] is between WH and Me. There is no other party involved - including via porn.

I get intimacy issues. I try to understand the WH side of that too. But damn it - sex is between the two of you - not a 3rd party even if not real.

If porn is something BOTH parties want to use as part of their sex/lovemaking - that's between the consenting adults. I have no right to judge. But when it forced upon you - hard no.

How the F would he feel if roles were reversed and you picked up a book?

I'm sorry this happened to you. He behaved like a flaming horse's patoot.

If porn is something BOTH parties want to use as part of their sex/lovemaking - that's between the consenting adults. I have no right to judge. But when it forced upon you - hard no.

I want to be clear, it's not forced upon me. We have always watched once in a while together. After my DDAY, he seemed to want to do that more, and I understood that might be distracting him from the mind movies, and that it might be hard to focus on me.

We were also back to having some love making right before I discovered his affair.

I wouldn't say forced, but I am thinking the first step will be let's try to do it without it more than with, and if one of us would like to watch to consult with the other before putting it on. And for christs sakes, prop it up next to us on a pillow or something, blocking our vision of each other was humiliating.

I think for me, the problem is more in the way I see his sexuality as sinister now, and I am realizing I did the same for him. It makes sex very loaded.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:33 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

Your husband last night put porn BETWEEN you and him, physically and metaphorically. That is not ok. Ever. That is not the same thing as INVOLVING porn during sex.

I agree with this 100%.

I'm sorry this happened to you. He behaved like a flaming horse's patoot.

And this too.

If he's not able to or not willing to have sex with you and feels the need to pull out an ipad in the middle to block you out and watch whatever, then there are much larger issues that need to be explored and discussed. It's fine if either of you needs to have sex without the intimacy part as long as you both know that going in and are both okay with that. Otherwise, one person is literally using the other, which is totally not okay.

Next time while HE's *down there* take out an emery board and start working on your nails. See how he likes it!

Communication. You guys really need to talk this out. Why are you having sex? Love? Intimacy? Guilt? Just plain horny? Trying to R and using it as a tool? Explore this. Not all of these are bad. But you do have to know what you're doing and why.

If he's not able to or not willing to have sex with you and feels the need to pull out an ipad in the middle to block you out and watch whatever, then there are much larger issues that need to be explored and discussed. It's fine if either of you needs to have sex without the intimacy part as long as you both know that going in and are both okay with that. Otherwise, one person is literally using the other, which is totally not okay.

Agree.

Communication. You guys really need to talk this out. Why are you having sex? Love? Intimacy? Guilt? Just plain horny? Trying to R and using it as a tool? Explore this. Not all of these are bad. But you do have to know what you're doing and why.

That might be the crux. Why are we having sex?

Both of us have physical touch as our main love language. I don't feel like holding hands that much. I have been able to cuddle with him on the couch for a movie on occasion. But, when we get in bed and our legs touch that's always been a thing with us. We simply touch more automatically in bed and it does cause an automatic stirring.

I realize that he has validation issues now. I didn't see it before. But, for him me wanting him/desiring him is very important and moreso since my affair. Since he had an affair of his own instead of dealing with my affair, he's still way further back on things than I realized. I guess I am giving him assurance, but it is also how I feel assurance sometimes too.

I think some of it is my fear that if we abstain that will become too easy? It's a mess, it really is, and maybe I did need a lot of advice. Where is that emoji with the palm plant to the forehead?

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:39 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

I'm not judging couples who have porn as part of their relationship or intimacy rituals...but I find it strange.

Though, having said that, I wonder if the mind movies I use to distract me from the crap of WW's actions so that I can finish is any different...

Anyway, the porn thing is just disrespectful if at least one of the parties is not happy with it. Is he just focusing on the images and then using you like a toy? Regardless of the history your relationship, just disrespectful.

I wouldn't call it the weaponization of sex. More like you're removing yourself from being dehumanized.

I think at very least that you two need to make an agreement that sex with you two will NOT include Porn type distractions unless you have a specific conversation about using it before the interaction starts. And you should make it clear to him that you are only interested in doing that on rare occasions and that you need to build your intimacy back up by just focusing on the two of you without outside distractions.

If that’s too difficult for him then let him know that without such an agreement you won’t be able to be intimate with him going forward.

I wonder if perhaps your husband is more conflict-avoidant than you know. The stuff he has done -- having his own fairly long term A (even while posting here), looking at porn on a tablet between you and him -- that sounds like the actions of a man who isn't able to confront his own stuff, at least not in your presence.

I wonder if perhaps your husband is more conflict-avoidant than you know. The stuff he has done -- having his own fairly long term A (even while posting here), looking at porn on a tablet between you and him -- that sounds like the actions of a man who isn't able to confront his own stuff, at least not in your presence.

I think it goes beyond conflict avoidance, though I do think he has that. This is what I have been saying in most of my posts regarding this situation. I do not think he is self aware. Throughout our whole marriage, he often could not put a finger on how he felt about something. Or once he went through a really big depression. It was maybe 13 or 14 years ago. Eventually I told him what I thought was bothering him, and he took that in and realized I was right.

So, not sure what that falls under? Lack of Emotional Intelligence? Hard to put that label on him either because he has always been good at reading people and situations. He's an excellent negotiator, and his communication/teaching skills in his career are exemplary. He is one of the most in demand consultants in his field.

He just really is out of tune with his own inner working and emotions. Until he figures it out, I don't think I will be able to trust him. It's not a lack of honesty issue (weird I feel that way, despite his affair) it's being able to trust him that he knows what he wants and feels.

Another example of that - ask him his favorite anything. It makes him freeze up. This seems unrelated on the surface, but it's all in the same vein of his issue.

Some of my frustration prior to my affair is we were definitely having problems getting on the same page about my workload. There was a great lack of empathy. And, when I would be upset about something and talk to him about it, he would always listen but never had anything to say back in return. He could just roll over and fall asleep and I never understood it.

Wow, you guys are really pulling some stuff out of me. But, it's so uncomfortable. It feels like I am bashing him or allowing others to.

what ButForTheGrace said... and

There is absolutely nothing wrong about stopping a sexual act that you’re not enjoying for any reason. That isn’t weaponizing sex that’s taking yourself out of a situation that is uncomfortable and unpleasant for you.

I do not think he is self aware. Throughout our whole marriage, he often could not put a finger on how he felt about something.

I feel ya.... I REALLY feel ya.

WH and I had a "state of the union" talk this week that included WH expounding on a customer who told WH a couple weeks ago he was considering hiring another person to "assist" in the job (basically a red flag/precursor to WH being fired for that job). WH felt hurt and realized in the moment that (a) he had feelings about it and (b) he wanted to talk to me about them. Which sounded to me like an "aha" moment. By the time he got home, he only mentioned what the customer said in the context of the "assist" (whom we both know) being a jerk, but did not say a word about his feelings (and IIRC, I even asked). When he shared this the other night, I - literally - LOL. The irony of "hey honey, got some great news.... my customer is unsatisfied and wants to hire someone else, BUT I FELT SOMETHING". He could not see my humor/irony (or the silver lining in the shitty biz news).

The point is my WH carries a TON of shame/self loathing about his lack of self awareness - to the point he can't even find/see the joy in FEELING something, and/or the awareness of emotion.

For me, that was a problem throughout the M, but one I'd reconciled with - ie he's a good person and I still love him despite the walls he's built up around himself. But when those walls become a container for their A, the dynamic changes in a big way. That lack of self awareness is now a proven, traumatic HARM to the BS (even if a FWS/MH).

As you are all too aware, flipping that switch from being in our self-made walls of unfeeling to self awareness can be a tough one. And I'm just some lady on a forum, but I really do think those who have a lifetime of self awareness that may falter is a different beast than someone who built those walls very young and has a lifetime / status quo of avoiding feelings. And that makes some sense to me WRT his A.... if not feeling is a status quo, then the BS must find a way to cope with the trauma of dday. Doesn't seem like much of a stretch to get from that lack of feeling/coping skills to an A. However, I think a BS engaging in a relatively long A injects a whole host of deeply rooted issues. IOW, IMO having a ONS after dday strikes me as a trauma response. Not a healthy one, but a trauma response. Having an 18month A is different - it goes beyond a trauma response. It requires superman skills of compartmentalization and cognitive dissonance.

Again, I'm just some lady on the Internet... I do NOT believe the hurt to the BS is less/greater depending on the length of the A. But I really do believe there is a direct relationship between the length of the A and the amount of crap the WS needs to deal with... the more time spent digging that hole, the larger the mound of dirt that's left next to it to clean up.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 10:39 AM, March 12th, 2021 (Friday)]

It feels like I am bashing him or allowing others to.

It's not about bashing him. It's about helping you realize what is happening in your own M since you might be too close to see it. And there's no fixing things unless there's awareness and specific things are called out.

HO: What would you say to another BW, in the early months after DD, whose WH put porn on, blocking her face, during a bj?

Treat yourself as kindly as you treat others.

It's not about bashing him. It's about helping you realize what is happening in your own M since you might be too close to see it. And there's no fixing things unless there's awareness and specific things are called out.

HO: What would you say to another BW, in the early months after DD, whose WH put porn on, blocking her face, during a bj?

Treat yourself as kindly as you treat others.

You guys are so right.

I don't know why this is so uncomfortable for me. I hate to relate this, but it's hard not to:

So, after my affair I think part of the reason I had a hard time getting past the AP is I just really couldn't believe I was so stupid. It was hard for me to understand I had been lied to and duped. I get you really can't be duped into having an affair, I do not mean to diminish my accountability. What I mean to say is maybe I have some sort of blind spot when it comes to pride that it becomes hard for me to believe that I am not this strong woman who I always saw myself as. I am not sure if that makes sense or not. I guess it boils down to that I see my husband as an extension of me, but he isn't? We are two individuals.

Not sure I am putting my finger on the right thing, but I wrote that out anyway.

It might be about my perfectionism.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:20 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

To paraphrase Yogi Berra, sex "is 90 percent mental. The other half is physical."

Intimacy is generally best when both partners are comfortable with themselves and each other. Given what you've both been through, and are going through, intimacy is going to be rather "hit or miss" for quite a while (possibly forever).

I would caution against framing intimacy in terms that elicit conflict, such as "weaponizing sex," or who's more giving.

What's most important, I think, is asking ourselves what we want from intimacy. What "needs" does it fulfill and are those "needs" healthy ones. Even more difficult is sharing those thoughts and feelings with each other.

I can only share what worked for us in R — but I think vulnerability is the toughest part of rebuilding a relationship.

I think we made it back because sex is so much different now.

Sex had been weaponized in our relationship, but only because of the distance caused by the secret my wife kept about her infidelity. When she broke off her LTA, sex was the last thing she wanted from anyone. She felt used and broken. And it became a chore for her, which in turn became a nightmare for me.

I think during those lean years, porn became something I thought necessary to keep life tolerable.

I learned a lot about porn since then, and it can destroy the connection of ‘normal’ intimacy. Especially when it sounds like it is almost “needed” as a crutch during a moment it shouldn’t be needed.

Porn can be a fun addition, on rare occasions to spice up a moment, but if it’s part of someone’s deal — all the time or most of the time —this may not be weaponized sex, it might be an addiction on some level.

But I’m not a sex therapist, nor do I play one on TV.

That aside, I think consulting a therapist about the topic may prove helpful.

We all know about the importance of connection for any relationship, and if one person or the other finds an obstacle to getting back to vulnerable, it needs to be addressed.

I don’t think walking away during intimacy is a punishment. You’re allowed to feel uncomfortable at any point.

If he can’t see that it made you uncomfortable or is unwilling to look at the issues, I’m thinking empathy is still an issue for him.

Empathy vanishes during infidelity, and if it doesn’t return, the relationship could be in big trouble.

Restoring balance in the bedroom isn’t the first step, but it’s critical. And for me and my wife, we’re not quite there yet, but we’re having fun making it fun for BOTH of us.

Lack of desire due to any sense of objectification (and what a fine line that word can be) is understandable.

You hurt him, he hurt you back.

He has to show some of that empathy you gave him or there is little chance for progress. My wife trying to understand my pain is what got us a chance. He needs to try and understand yours.

You hurt him, he hurt you back.

He has to show some of that empathy you gave him or there is little chance for progress. My wife trying to understand my pain is what got us a chance. He needs to try and understand yours.

Beautifully put. Without this, it just becomes a long running stream of hurting each other (intentional and unintentional).