SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

strugglebus

In order to do that, after a certain amount of time, you must no longer bring up the affair, because if you do you are preventing your spouse from living a normal life, punishing them and holding a grudge.

I never said "must no longer". I was pretty clear about the fact that when people NEED to talk, they NEED to talk. I agree with that. I just don't think it's worth giving up anything I've got going on right now to drag us back to his perfidy any time it flutters through my mind. He's not the only one who gets dragged back to the past when that happens, and I DO NOT WANT to revisit the past anymore. Mileage may vary on that, but I've hashed and re-hashed and re-hashed every aspect of it over the past six and a half years.

I feel like you only read one part of my response but that’s okay, you don’t owe me your full attention. And really what it comes down to is probably you and I are different types of humans who have different types of marriages that fulfill us and thats actually great!

I think we just experience and think of things differently. And maybe in another year and a half my triggers will be gone and I won’t bring it up again.

I’m not dragged back to the past when I have a trigger. I’m not rehashing things. It’s impossible for me to go backwards because I don’t look at things the same way as I did 5 years ago or 3 years ago or in some cases even six months ago because I am always changing and growing as a human.

And honestly when it comes up I talk about my current feelings and he talks about his current feelings- not events.

My husband doesn’t get put up on a cross when it comes up. I don’t use it as a weapon in fights. I spend a tiny fraction of my life on the subject really (I am rarely on this site at all for example but I swing by on occasion because I think people need to hear success stories)

Discussing triggers with my spouse doesn’t make either of us feel bad or punished or deflate our balloons- we take a few moments to come together and then move on with our days. We have put a lot of work into communicating and it’s paid off.

This is the product of our version of the work. This is what our marriage looks like after working to heal from infidelity. I know it’s a healthier one than it has ever been. I know we are genuinely happy.

But happy, healthy marriages are not one size fits all. I hope everyone doing the hard work of reconciliation finds the version that works for them.

I dunno. I've read both your posts, in their entirety, and maybe it really does just come down to being different kinds of people.

I can't imagine at this point what circumstance might come up that we haven't already hashed out again and again. I certainly am past the need for comforting about it. I can't imagine it coming up in casual conversation, like "hey, remember when you fucked all those weirdos you met online?". There just comes a point at which you're not bleeding anymore. In fact, even as I post this, I'm eating like a lumberjack.

I just felt like I wanted to pass along some thoughts before I mosey along. I can feel a change of wind coming where I am just not going to want to be thinking about infidelity at all.

Yeah, that’s not what happens with me either. That would be weird.

Recently we were watching a show that just hit me wrong. I watch lots of shows that have affair storylines, read books etc with no issue. But this one knocked me on the butt for whatever reason and made me more upset than I usually am. My husband noticed a change in me. We had a maybe five minute conversation about how it makes sense that sometimes things that normally aren’t upsetting hit harder. He talked about how he finds affair things upsetting sometimes too. We had some hugs, some kisses and then had a great night.

Anyway, yes I think we are different people who had very different affairs fall into our laps, we likely have different coping strategies, upbringings and possibly want different stuff out of marriage. So different stuff works for us

Forgiveness makes me feel like I’m saying it’s ok.

A few thoughts....

I wouldn't forgive my W if that's what 'forgive' meant to me.

R is possible without forgiveness.

R is probably impossible if either party makes the A 'OK'.

It's possible to change one's definition of 'forgive'. For example, to me it means something like 'give up all desire for revenge' or 'give up all desire to see WS punished.'

*****

You might think you've covered everything about the A in 5 years. However, a year or so ago, a question about the A that had never occurred to to me before popped into my mind. It popped a few times, so I asked the question.

Brand new question after almost 10 years. Blew my mind.

how do I let other people know that there are all these really great ways to challenge your thinking and to make progress and that you can get yourself unstuck and have a successful reconciliation with a truly remorseful spouse so long as they have corrected their deficits??

Maybe begin with compassion?
e.g., "sometimes people can become really invested in their own misery"
to me, is VERY different than
"damn, sounds like you may be stuck... what's that about and here are the things that helped me...."

This topic often brings me back to the well documented reality that not everyone handles trauma the same. Reminds me of Van der Kolk's example of the couple who were in the same multi-car pileup with fatalities. One spouse seemed to manage the trauma pretty well, while the other was very much caught up in an unmanageable trauma response. I can't say that "science" knows exactly why some respond differently to trauma than others (tho I'd certainly speculate whatever trauma/CPTSD that existed in childhood plays a significant role - but I'm no scientist and don't even play one on TV).

The point is that there are a TON of various "tools" to be used to address trauma. EMDR may work wonders for patient A, but not do squat for patient B. Doesn't necessarily mean EMDR is bunk or God's gift. It's a tool that works for some and not for others. I believe it helped a ton WRT my WH's suicide attempt... not so much WRT the infidelity. Some of the "tools" that helped me a lot early on, didn't do so much to help the particular place in which I'd become stuck at a later time. And that's ok, I can try another tool and see if that can help move along whatever is jammed. AND there may be times that I'm just exhausted from it all, and have to give myself a break from picking up any tools for awhile. That's OK too, and that is equally worthy of compassion over judgment.

Just an observation, but it seems that the five year mark is somewhat of a turning point in the relationship that has suffered infidelity. I didn’t set out to have a statute of limitations, but had an epiphany at that mark that was partially random.

We had scheduled a huge trip for out 25th anniversary. South Pacific. Hotels on stilts over the water. First class air. The works. Then she had the affair. Both the MC we had and her pleaded for me to go, but I pulled the plug to salvage some of my costs. She was crushed.

So after a brutal first year where I was a monster, we settled into a a life where I wasn’t mean, but I wasn’t loving either. We just kind of coexisted. The affair was never really spoken about. Occasionally a TV show would feature infidelity. I wouldn’t say anything, but just close down. This also would happen when friends woukd tell me how lucky I was to have her. From their perspective it made sense. She was a doting if almost a stepford wife, and I was just kind of there for the ride and living a separate life. The friends telling me this woukd also send me down the rabbit hole. She apologized and tried to get me to open up, but that would shut me down even further.

Almost five years later she came to me all excited. She had secretly been working with a travel agent to put together a different trip (she isn’t stupid) but one of the same scale. She was so excited to show me what she had done and how amazing the trip woukd be But, when she brought out the materials something in me snapped. All the pain I had bottled up exploded and instead of telling her to book it, I told her I wanted a divorce. She actually thought I was joking. I don’t know if it was the thought of the trip, the amount of time that had passed where I still couldn’t look at her as anything but damaged goods, or what, but the 5 year mark turned out to be my statue of limitations.

Who knows, maybe if I went on either of the trips things might have gone a different way.

It just seems my story at five years mirrors others. Sometimes the epiphany goes the other way where the BS feels that is the right time to buy the affair in the past, and return to a stable loving marrige.

There just seems however to be something about the five year mark

how do I let other people know that there are all these really great ways to challenge your thinking and to make progress and that you can get yourself unstuck and have a successful reconciliation with a truly remorseful spouse so long as they have corrected their deficits??

Maybe begin with compassion?

e.g., "sometimes people can become really invested in their own misery"

to me, is VERY different than

"damn, sounds like you may be stuck... what's that about and here are the things that helped me...."

I'm not sure I'm following you. Is your complaint about the language I used or is it the concept that sometimes people can become really invested in their own misery? If it's the direct nature of the language.. I'm sorry to have offended you. You've been through a lot and I would never deliberately add to your burden.

If it's the possibility that people are capable of clinging to misery, that's an actual thing. You can find more information with keywords like "addicted to misery". Sometimes the brain just stays down for so long that misery becomes default setting. It's like we don't remember how to feel happy. I remember at one point as I was starting to gain more ground from my depression, I couldn't remember the last time I had laughed. And it's coincidence that you made reference to compassion, because it was at this point that I started contemplating the difference between self-compassion and self-pity. I can't speak for anyone else here, but yeah, my self-pity was running rampant, I had been wallowing in my grief and my misery. I'd practically worn my IC out with the same conversation week after week. What few friends I hadn't driven off and my WH had heard it all multiple times by then. This is natural. This is trauma. This is how the sausage is made, right? Repetition, telling the story over and over again. But you know, at a certain point, I think that was done and I was still left in the puddle of gooey misery that I just couldn't seem to lift myself out of. And I was tired of listening to me. I was sick of the woebegone drone of my own inner monologue. It occurred to me that despite my IC's advice, I wasn't engaging in the CBT exercises she had given me. I wasn't answering back to the negativity. I wasn't correcting my Inner Critic. I think you're right and that people do have to get there in their own time, but once I started thinking of my Self-Compassion as my Inner-Cheerleader and my Self-Pity as my Inner Critic, it made it easier to start changing that inner monologue and fact-checking my negativity.

I do remember all that misery, the depression, the catastrophizing, the hyperbole, anxiety, heart palpitations... all of it. But I don't feel that way anymore. It's possible to get better. I don't know that I would have if I hadn't taken steps to deal with that negative inner monologue though.

Again, I'm so sorry I offended you. That was never my intent.

Just an observation, but it seems that the five year mark is somewhat of a turning point in the relationship that has suffered infidelity. I didn’t set out to have a statute of limitations, but had an epiphany at that mark that was partially random.

Maybe it's because of the phrase "five year plan", I don't know. It just kind of jumps out at you though, doesn't it? I mean, when people think about where they want to be in their lives or how much time they're willing to commit to an endeavor which may or may not result in wasted time, I just don't think the vast majority of people can imagine making a longer commitment.

So essentially,

Poor WH deserves all the comfort, but BS don't deserve some comfort from the cheater who they gave a huge gift to.

Because ChamomileTea said so.

Because it's so easy to suppress deep pain but it's so hard so spend a few minutes of your day, as a WS who never thinks about their betrayal/abuse to your spouse, holdi g your BS's hand through it.

Because the BS is supposed to be psychic and know 5 yrs prior that they would still hurt, and then be a martyr.

Instead of having the audacity to think a WS wouldn't hold the affair against THEM.

Because that's what this is. The WS holding the BS' pain against them if they are less than sympathetic.

We always say the WS will never return this huge gift, so why not give a tiny bit of appreciation by comforting your spouse.

How sad... BS really aren't allowed to have their love reciprocated in this TINY way. Judged by other BS because they're projecting their harsh standards onto other BS without considering what THEIR agreement was.

Last time I checked, wedding vows trump this 'statute of limitations'. It's the WS VOW to comfort their BS as part of the viw to love them. Since they broke their other vows

It's the very least they can do.

It costs the WS 100th of the ice cream on sale. Why should the BS 'buy the ice cream' but the WS can't in this way 'buy their BS ice cream' because they love them?

And a truly remorseful spouse doesn't consider one single conversation out of their happy lives (because they don't have to deal with the misery, they get unconditional love after horrible actions), to be 'dragged back',

They *aren't* remorseful. A remorseful spouse would consider what they've been given, and jump at the chance to show love to their BS.

Instead of acting like the pain is some kind of choice.

It's not. Speak for yourself about being invested in misery. BS didn't ask for this. WS did. So they need to stop being invested in comfort, the comfort of having their lives uninterrupted by their cheating, but the comfort of having a silent wife whose life is interrupted daily by cheating.

So essentially,

Poor WH deserves all the comfort, but BS don't deserve some comfort from the cheater who they gave a huge gift to.

Because ChamomileTea said so.

Maybe it's YOUR position, "that the WS deserves all the comfort", because I never wrote it and to say that I did is a goddam LIE.

In fact, nothing you've written here is of worthy of response because you are clearly just looking to be as offended as possible without any effort to understand the content, which I will not bother to explain to you.

Hi CT. Have read all your posts and some responses here. Been thinking about this, and waiting to have a good few minutes to write them up.

Of course in the end it’s “to each his/her own”. Whatever works for you…. As long as it works.

But if I think about what would work for me, I think of the following.

First of all on forgiveness, I’ve used (and probably stole from someone else) the phrase, “forgive the person, not the act”. If an act was unforgivable don’t forgive it, or the person back then who did it, ever. But if your WS truly changes, works diligently and for a long time to become someone different, someone incapable of making the same choices, then I think it’s ok to, but of course not required, forgive them.

The BS can even say it that way if they want to “I cannot forgive the act that was committed that hurt me so or who you were back then to commit it, but you, standing in front of me now, a changed person, whom I’ve watched work incredibly hard in IC and with me to change who you are and how you treat me and how you work within our relationship…. You I forgive and look forward to creating a life with. “

As for triggers that occur I’d say it’s valid to either bring them up or not bring them up. Honestly I believe that a truly reformed WS who has lead the rebuilding of their relationship and proven themselves to be safe (which we can define separately) would stand along side you and be as mad or upset as you are That you were harmed emotionally and continue to find pain in, their own actions. And it’s ok to at least discuss the trigger even if the pain is more benign these days.

I often tell WS’s that they should become their BS’s biggest defender against themselves, the WS. They should be outraged at whom they were. And yes, I believe they should do that for a lifetime whether or not the BS brings up the affair.

Of course that doesn’t mean they have to feel shame all the time. Just agree w the BS that the triggers really suck and show empathy that uou are going thru them if you feel that would be helpful. Either way, whether discussed or not, they should feel that empathy whenever the subject of infidelity arises.

I recently had a severe hand injury. I will never forget that it happened and how awful i felt. My wife did not cause it whatsoever (nope did it to myself and my wife was my savior through true event and healing) but we still stand together when we reflect back on it. I don’t think we will ever not remember this event and the pain it caused.

Of course in the case of infidelity your and all WS have caused the emotional injury. But over time if they do the real work and commit to changing, they can still play that role as partner discussing the trigger and the memories it stirred as someone standing beside you, not in your crosshairs.

Of course it seems you don’t feel the need. And that’s fine. But it doesn’t mean you have to give up the right to communicate them. If I were your WS part of my transformation would include making sure you knew I was there for you in this way.

One thing I absolutely do agree with you on is the ice cream. While in the early stages when uou are just considering reconciliation you might be wary of the message you are sending. But once you get back to the point where you are back to being committed to the relationship, then doing considerate things is normal operating procedures.

Buy the rocky road and enjoy sharing it with him. But remember that it does not mean you lose your right to share painful thoughts when they arise. He’s your partner and that’s the role he should absolutely want to fill.

I think there are too many variables to have a general purpose statute of limitations. Even when we qualify it for those WS's that have "done the work", even the "done the work" varies greatly in what "done" and "work" looks like from one remorseful WS to another. I think it would take a very remarkable WS to get "it" so well and done all that was needed, and showed depth of remorse and healthy, loving, supportive, understanding behaviors to reach a statue of limitations worthiness. I am sure there must be a few out there, but most stories here, even with those that have been in R for some time suggests the unicorns are few.

I suppose, if a WS meets all the gets it and done it requirements for the BS to feel forever safe and assured and any other thing they need that is a direct result of the betrayals, then maybe a statute of limitations is reasonable.

Having said all that, even if I concede to the concept, the details as to what is and isn't allowed after the statue of limitations were reached is also full of holes and variables. If not bringing up a trigger was one of those conditions for the SofL, I'm afraid it wouldn't be offered in my house. There are some things that just have to left on the table. May be rare occasions but have to be on the table.

Even when we qualify it for those WS's that have "done the work", even the "done the work" varies greatly in what "done" and "work" looks like from one remorseful WS to another. I think it would take a very remarkable WS to get "it" so well and done all that was needed, and showed depth of remorse and healthy, loving, supportive, understanding behaviors to reach a statue of limitations worthiness.

Just as we can't judge another person's pain, we really can't judge another person's relationship. What one person may think is "enough" the next may think is barely a drop in the bucket of what is required. One person may feel, "it's been long enough, I don't need to bring this up anymore," while another feels that they want to share triggers with their spouse forever. There is no one size fits all, even with infidelity isn't a factor.

I thought me and my H were in R. He had a year long EA 17 years ago. I thought he would never do anything like that again. But here I am again...17 years later. I don’t regret not leaving 17 years ago. But things are different this time. I don’t think I can forgive him again

[This message edited by Stayinghopefull at 12:34 PM, August 3rd (Tuesday)]

Stevesn

I often tell WS’s that they should become their BS’s biggest defender against themselves, the WS. They should be outraged at whom they were. And yes, I believe they should do that for a lifetime whether or not the BS brings up the affair.

Of course that doesn’t mean they have to feel shame all the time.

Do you really think that WS's can be outraged at who they were and not feel any shame about it. I'm not a WS, so that's hard for me to imagine. I know that a typical part of the therapy is getting out of the shame spiral, but it doesn't seem logical to me that there wouldn't be any residual shame if there was real remorse.

Of course it seems you don’t feel the need. And that’s fine. But it doesn’t mean you have to give up the right to communicate them.

Nope, I haven't given up the right to talk about whatever I want to talk about. Like I said earlier though, I'm no longer willing to indulge the past. It's not healthy and I don't like it.

DIFM

I think there are too many variables to have a general purpose statute of limitations. Even when we qualify it for those WS's that have "done the work", even the "done the work" varies greatly in what "done" and "work" looks like from one remorseful WS to another. I think it would take a very remarkable WS to get "it" so well and done all that was needed, and showed depth of remorse and healthy, loving, supportive, understanding behaviors to reach a statue of limitations worthiness. I am sure there must be a few out there, but most stories here, even with those that have been in R for some time suggests the unicorns are few.

While I do agree that there are too many variables to set a real time limit, I would hope that most people would be thinking about what is a reasonable amount of time to give toward any venture. R doesn't happen when we choose it. There's a long process where we "try" for R before arriving at it. What people keep telling me in myriad ways is that there is no "arrival", it's more like a constant state of trying. What I don't understand is why anyone would want that. As a BS, I surely don't. And if I were a WS, I can't even imagine. Wouldn't it be better for the WS to just admit that they fucked up, that it can't be fixed, and then move on? If there's no point at which they can't say, "we have reconciled", why do it? I mean, if memory serves, you actually divorced your WS, correct? And still, WS's who have done all the work and "get it" are "unicorns"?

Stayinghopefull

I thought me and my H were in R. He had a year long EA 17 years ago. I thought he would never do anything like that again. But here I am again...17 years later. I don’t regret leaving 17 years ago. But things are different this time. I don’t think I can forgive him again

I'm so sorry that happened to you. And who could blame you if you don't want to give another chance. No WS is owed a second chance, let alone a third.

Relapses like this are every BS's nightmare. I do think most of us worry that the WS is pulling the wool over our eyes and that they haven't really changed. And this is part of what has me in an honest quandary about what's fair after R is well-established. Because from my perspective, it seems mad not to have a back-up plan after you've been betrayed, even if that WS has done all the work and we truly do believe in their changes. We still can't see into their heads and know for sure what's going on in there. I do suppose though that having the plan and acting on it are two different things. I can't imagine divorcing my fWH after I've cleaned the slate. But if there came some new betrayal from him?.. that's a wholly different subject, isn't it?

Again.. so sorry you're going through this again.

Do you really think that WS's can be outraged at who they were and not feel any shame about it. I'm not a WS, so that's hard for me to imagine. I know that a typical part of the therapy is getting out of the shame spiral, but it doesn't seem logical to me that there wouldn't be any residual shame if there was real remorse.

I agree. I think the shame spiral is the unhealthy, of no useful value state that serves neither the WS or BS any good. A terrible state of mind that is often, reasonably so, perceived by the BS as a some of the same woe is me broken mindset in their cheating spouse that allowed them to cheat in the firs place.

Forget about the issue of infidelity and cheating, anything we do that results in feelings of shame are likely to stay with you for the rest of your life. Shame, in and of itself, is not a bad thing or a roadblock to progress, growth, and healing. Shame seems to be like regret and remorse. If you do something really bad to someone else in life, I cannot imagine not feeling some sense of remorse, shame, and guilt - with me for the rest of my life in some capacity. I can move forward out of the spiral or self loathing, but I cannot imagine no longer feeling some reasonable and healthy sense of shame over my wrongdoings.

It is the shame spiral that traumatizes the BS and WS, not the reasonable and expected sense of shame and guilt over their harm to others and themselves. Getting out of the toxic spiral should help the WS embrace the healthy sense of shame, guilt, and most importantly, remorse.

I've heard it described this way:

Guilt = I've *done* something bad.

Shame = I *am* a bad person.