SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am curious though, what makes any of you think that your right about the intentions, actions, or person behind that article?

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I am under no illusion that any assumptions I’ve made are correct. For all I know she’s a giant asshole who divorced her H on Tuesday without a second thought, because it occurred to her on Monday that being single might be fun - children be damned.

I have made more generous assumptions than that because I prefer to assume that people are mostly good (or at least not monstrous).

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I am under no illusion that any assumptions I’ve made are correct. For all I know she’s a giant asshole who divorced her H on Tuesday without a second thought, because it occurred to her on Monday that being single might be fun - children be damned.

That wasn't really directed towards you, and not the sum of parts, more towards the parts themselves. That being said, thanks for answering.

I have made more generous assumptions than that because I prefer to assume that people are mostly good (or at least not monstrous).

I prefer that as well...but its not always the case right?

I am curious though, what makes any of you think that your right about the intentions, actions, or person behind that article?

I’d love to see an essay written by each of the members of the family. It’d be like the short story Rashomon I bet.

It may well be that the husband had an EA right at the beginning of their marriage, everyone told her to get over it, she never did, and she doesn’t want to out the husband to her kids in an article. Or she had an affair. Or was pregnant then got married. Or realized she was non-binary. Or fill in the blank. Maybe they will remarry. It’s early going in the story.

We’re not the same person at 30 as we were at 20. Same for 40, 50, and now 60. Older and wiser. I’d love to get all versions of me together in a room and have a discussion. Guess who would have the wisest counsel on picking a mate? Guess who actually picked the mate?

I read the article and thought about it. If someone respected their marriage vows and then decides that it is not for them, I did not see any issue with divorcing. At least, there is an honesty and truth in it. Will I be resentful on the other side of it- absolutely for some time but I will understand it. We don’t know why people separate and believe me that it is such a luxury of western world to pursue your happiness. In many cultures, the stigma for the family and kids forces people to be in very unhealthy situations so I don’t want to take that choice away from anyone.
So all in all, all the best to the writer and her family. Looks like they are trying to be decent parents to their kids and hope they continue to be so. We never can judge anyone from an article. Think of how many of us were in sham marriages unbeknownst. So that old saying that only two people know what happens in a marriage does not hold true for all of us in this forum :(

One of the ways that I have changed in regards to my perception of marriage is in trying to see--and have respect for--the way that my H feels on the topic. When we were getting a D, his sense of loss and failure far exceeded my own. I knew I had done everything humanly possible, read every book and sought out every counselor, and I felt secure in my decision. I was not happy, but I was at peace. My H, on the other hand, became a shell of a man. He just lost every ounce of confidence and faith in himself and in the world.

Of course, that all led to some serious soul searching and change, so it worked out for him in the long run. But I never forgot how integral marriage was to his being, and even though I have encouraged him to become more of a self and less defined by his role as father and husband, this has been very challenging for him as all of his male friends view themselves this way. Bragging about the wellness of their families is part of how they bond, so my H is swimming against a current when he tries to change the conversation.

All of this caused me to reflect while we were separated. Society's pressure on him and acceptance of him mattered to me. Obviously my kids wanted us together, but they didn't want the fighting. Could I allow my H the chance to change and adapt to what he had learned? I did feel that I owed him that due to my vows and his role as the father of my children. He has risen to the challenge, although there will always be issues. He was a spoiled child, and I'm not sure he can snap his fingers and change his personality. I am also a controlling oldest, and I can't either. So we navigate.

But having respect and compassion for his needs and desires in marriage felt right. It didn't feel like selling out, even though I had just cause to divorce (in my mind). I did see that while we were two adults in the same marriage, our needs and pressures were different. Marriage defines him far more than it defines me, but he cannot change that by himself or overnight. And I realized that my vows should address that truth for him, not just my own.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:05 PM, Friday, January 7th]

I'm all for divorcing every 5 to 10 years, as we change.

I'm all for divorcing every 5 to 10 years, as we change.

I've genuinely had the discussion that a marriage license should be good for a fixed period of time, like a passport. You have to renew it. Renew your vows. It would cause people to genuflect, and probably be A Good Thing.

I am curious though, what makes any of you think that your right about the intentions, actions, or person behind that article?

I don't. I like to ponder the alternatives. For all we know this was a total work of fiction. I do assume if it's not fiction it was written from the author's perspective on life. For someone who wasn't sure the effect of the kids even at the end, I just felt there would be more on what she tried to grow within the marriage if there was some effort on that.

I'm all for divorcing every 5 to 10 years, as we change.

If they made it easier to D. I'm for not marrying at all now. The financial entanglements just aren't worth it.

OIN. Your last post was fabulous I thought.

An enormous number of women (myself included) struggle while adapting to the changes to their relationships that inevitably occur once babies are added to the mix (I will note from my own experience that dynamics can change with each additional child).

(presuming the parents are married)

Do you personally feel that mothers face unique relationship changes (pre/post-birth) and fathers do not?

Maybe it’s lack of sleep,

It's fair to generalize that mothers tend to suffer more than fathers in this area. But maybe just as a father may experience a different form of exhaustion in the form of unrelenting expectations from work and going to home to, rightfully, pull weight and also be awoken regularly with duties. In my personal experience, neither parent is immune to their own type of constant tiredness and exhaustion.

maybe it’s hormones,

Mothers definitely get a raw deal on that one as they're alone in the hormone rollercoaster. Mothers have my sympathy. But fathers who care about their wives and support them through this time aren't living in a hormone rollercoaster-free vacuum. It's a "gift" (lol -right?) that a healthy couple share in different ways.

maybe its a disconnect between expectation and reality,

Is this unique to mothers? I don't mean to suggest mothers do not face this. I'm certain they do. I mean to ask if you're saying mothers experience this and fathers are excluded from it?

but resentment of ones spouse is common – even when that spouse is mostly "good" (many are not).

So I do not presume: I read this paragraph and more specifically this sentence as you're speaking of the mother/W resenting the father/H as well as a generalization that "many" fathers/H's are not mostly good. If so...

How sad it would be for the mother to commonly resent the father -even if the father is mostly good. It would be equally sad for the opposite to be true. But I'd hate to default to feeling either path being common, and I'd definitely hate to believe either to be justified or understandable (not to suggest you typed that out). Resentment is so very far from love and from a healthy marriage. It's so damn toxic and despite the challenges of being a parent, new or not, moments of negative emotion is not resentment.

Some marriages are able to withstand the enormous changes that having children bring – some are not. I have NEVER seen someone contemplate separation or divorce blithely. Too often I see women in what I would consider to be unlivable situations trying to "work things out" for the sake of their child (before Linus jumps in because I know he will, I do not suggest that men do not also make pretty terrible sacrifices for their families).

When hearing someone speak of conflict, we've all heard the saying that "there's three sides to every story", right? May I ask how many of these situations you were able to hear from both sides? It's true that even here on SI that we may read a BS's words but not the WS. But, if the BS has experienced adultery, there's not much of another side to hear in terms of judging the WS's actions as wrong. It's a hard line in the sand and that line does not require the rationale of the WS because it's a line that does not budge based upon the perceived faults of a BS.

When it comes to marriage/parenting problems, there are significantly more grey areas, nuance and subtlety than infidelity. Shoot, a situation doesn't even require someone to be right and the other wrong. Sometimes there's just a difference of opinion and more than one path to success.

If anyone is reading a person's biased version of events from within a M, it behooves the reader to keep in mind that few people will share how ugly the writer may have been leading up to and through the narrative being shared. How many people go onto discussion forums and brag about how they've been grossly negligent, unjust and rationalized their justifying a divorce?

No wife and no husband openly says how they've blithely decided to divorce.

A staggering (and heartbreaking) number of women experience/discover infidelity during pregnancy or when their child(ren) are very young – obviously experiencing this kind of trauma in these circumstances is a special sort of awful.

(Consider the source. If one goes to a men's rights discussion board and I believe you'll find an equal serving of one-sided experiences.) I'll freely admit that it's a special kind of awful for a new mother to discover that kind of cruelty while facing the challenges unique to a new mother. I can't speak for a mother/wife in that situation but I would have empathy for her. I can only speak from the point of view of a father/H who discovered 12 years of lies and infidelity while my third child was 5 months old...

Neither have exclusive rights to being more wronged by infidelity based upon being a mother or a father.

Lately I’ve done a lot of my JFO "triage work" there. I invariably recommend that those women come here for support. Sometimes – certainly not often - I see them post in JFO. I imagine others lurking in the background, like I did, wondering if this is a safe space for them. Whether they (or others) are participating in these conversations, they are reading. I am protective of those women.

That's commendable of you. I can think of many members I've been personally helped by who no doubt did something similar for me. There are some beautiful people here and what they do is "thankless" in nature.

In reading this thread, whether people read the article or not, people (especially women) are going to hear that divorce, especially with young children, is selfish and wrong. That it is giving up. That it is worthy of judgment and condemnation. That any unhappiness they have in their marriage, if it doesn’t include beating or cheating, is a frivolous, selfish problem.

Before someone "hears" something regarding a specific article, it'd be reasonable that they take a moment to read the article before "hearing" what they want to believe. I believe that both men and women are capable of the foolishness of choosing to ignore the core of the discussion before drawing a conclusion.

It's just my .02, but the problem with D, especially with young children being involved, is the systematic lack of value and honor for the vows they willingly made. People literally treat a vow as the same as if they were in a drive-through for fast food and after the slightest urge for a different meal, they, after the quickest glance at the side view mirror, zip out of the line and zip across the street for a taco instead of a burger. People ARE selfish. They ARE frivolous. All one has to do is value a vow for what it actually is and then observe how people treat their vows. (more on this in a moment)

Did someone in the thread say "any unhappiness they have in their marriage, if it doesn’t include beating or cheating, is a frivolous, selfish problem"?

Or, if they have already chosen to divorce (as others have chimed in) and NOT chosen to air their dirty laundry far and wide, that everyone around them has also passed that judgment. That’s a lot.

If a person seeks to have their words published, as this person did, they are putting their actions out there to be judged. She literally aired out some seriously petty thoughts which she used to "justify" throwing her husband and kids under the bus. If she was being physically or mentally abused, that's not airing out dirty laundry. Just my opinion but no one should confuse the feelings she shared with her avoiding airing out dirty laundry. She DID air her dirty laundry...her selfish internal dialog.

That’s the kind of thing that keeps people in bad situations.

I disagree.

If anything, I believe the writer flaunts how she devalues marriage, is a vow breaker and is a voice which can poison the foundation of a marriage of susceptible mind.

....I think we should be more careful about judging people’s parenting.

That reminds me of how my son feels sometimes. My 11 year old son hates it when I enforce consequences for bad decisions he makes. I am teaching him that in real life, when we do bad things, there are natural consequences for our actions. I may fail, but I am working hard to train him to understand that he should think real hard before he does something because it may come at a cost.

When someone relies on the lack of judgement of others, they become all the more selfish. Quite frankly, some things deserve public displays of disgust; such as adultery and neglect for children's welfare.

There are a lot of voices here. Some are louder than others. That can be incredibly intimidating to someone new here. It can be silencing.

Maybe? I suppose it's plausible. What source do you use to found that on?

I've not personally observed Thumos stifling any new members. Admittedly, I've not seen 100% of his posts. lol

Thumos, it will not surprise anyone if I suggest that you are one those loud voices. I’ve said this to you before, but rightly or wrongly, that means people will listen.

Loud is not synonymous with being capable of articulating or debating (not arguing) a thought. I'll leave it at that.

...HOW you speak matters though.

I agree with you and will add that how we all speak matters if we desire to be taken seriously.

It has been suggested you tone down the hyperbole.

I'll give that to you. But he, like his most-unfortunate brotherine, has experienced his own awful trauma and he is going to be imperfect in his healing just like every other BW and BH here. That's not a license to be hateful (not suggesting he has been). But it is a license for him to have strong feelings make their way out in less-than-perfect (in the eye of the beholder...) ways from time to time.

[Before I let this go, because I know I should, I would like to point out that I am not the one raising patriarchy and empowerment and feminism. Neither is Ms. Jones (I have already pointed out she brings up the patriarchy in passing as an interest vs. blaming it for her unhappiness). I simply don’t see where she is connecting the dissolution of her family to the "empowerment narrative". I don't see her suggesting she is some sort of feminist icon/example - I certainly never said she was. YOU are the one who seems to keep raising it and are bothered by it.]

Not speaking for anyone else when I say that I think it's written all over her narrative how she feels. For instance, she's not overt and outright saying "I am just a selfish person". But the thought pattern she shares is one of a selfish person.

This point will boil down to how someone perceives her feelings and actions though. Unless everyone sharing their .02 here has the identical foundation for values, morals, communication, etc., there is bound to be a difference of opinion.

[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 7:55 PM, Friday, January 7th]

I find it interesting that the gender divide seems to be this on this thread:
Mostly the men are seeing this woman's decision to divorce as frivolous, silly, selfish, and impulsive.
While the women are seeing it as a bit selfish perhaps, but not a bad decision generally.

I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of that.

I know for me, I am not seeing this article as a woman who is impulsively deciding to divorce. I see it as a woman who had what she thought she wanted at 21, only to discover that it isn't what she actually wants as she has grown and matured and changed as a person. I don't see her bashing her husband or saying he had any shortcomings really, but that she just didn't want to be married to him anymore. As I've said multiple times, I think this article offends me more because it was not well written. I think I see the points she was making, but they weren't well connected and her language is too metaphorical to clearly illustrate the points she was aiming for. I don't see the 'empowerment' thing in this article either. I just see an average woman who is searching for a sense of her own identity - and in so doing is making mistakes like every person does in that search.

I get feeling a sense of spiritual malaise. I get feeling like 'is this all there is?'. I get feeling bad and guilty for wanting something different or feeling that malaise when your current situation is not horrible. I get feeling bad for feeling dissatisfied when you have a roof over your head and you have no reason to complain really. I get feeling tired of living in your current reality. My guess is that the guys here probably understand those feelings too, because those feelings are human ones, not woman ones. So my questions are: Why is what she did such a bad thing? Why is this woman being vilified for changing or deciding on a different path for herself? Why is her making the decision to divorce SO upsetting (especially given the fact that from this account the divorce is amicable and they are making every effort to be decent co-parents to their children)?

I have a relative who did the homemaker, den mother, soccer mother, chief cook and bottle washer until her kids reached their teens. They were off with their friends, her husband is in a sport he plays any chance he can. She woke up one day, enrolled herself in a masters program, got a job she loves and everyone is happy but her husband. That chief cook and bottlewasher is no more. All the people in her house are capable of looking after themselves. He wants supper ready, so does she. Whoever fixes it gets a thanks but it is not her every day. Life changes as we move through it.

My thought is that she cannot put into words that she did not love her husband enough when she married him. If you look at bride magazines people get caught up in the romance of the ceremony and never think about the rest of their lives. She is a different person from the girl who got married. If she was dissatisfied in her marriage I guarantee her husband knew it, he just did not want to deal with it.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 8:07 PM, Friday, January 7th]

^^^^
A picture of her husband for reference:

lol sorry

I am curious though, what makes any of you think that your right about the intentions, actions, or person behind that article?

Why does that matter? If the author didn't want to people to make judgements about her character and behavior, she shouldn't have published her story in a nationally syndicated publication. On the contrary, I think she wrote it to incite the sort of debate we're having right now.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:23 PM, Friday, January 7th]

I felt weird at first coming down with judgment of this woman, however, I reminded myself she is a professional writer publishing this with a pecuniary interest. She is literally inviting judgment by that act (although I suspect she would rather receive judgment that is positive). Also, as a professional writer, any ambiguity in a published writing is held against the drafter. If it is vague or ambiguous, the audience is free to make reasonable assumptions based on the information disclosed.

On a personal level, I feel that a person has a duty to try to make it work especially if they have children. Did she ever discuss with her husband taking a weekend here and heading to NYC for some LSD-fueled lesbian encounters? Maybe find some new friends to drink too much white wine with that aren't as, according to her, intellectually primitive than her simple, but kind, homespun cleaning lady (did another else feel she was comparing women who chose to be domestic to Luba?). Do we know if she ever tried to make it work by asking for some help or support? By her writing, "(I) told my husband how I felt, and that I didn’t think I could change how I felt..." According to her own words, it would stand to reason like it wasn't much of a discussion and based on speculation.

But honestly, none of that really matters. I could careless on a personal level of a person's individual reasons. As long as they can look themselves in the mirror and honestly say they gave it their best shot and did everything they could, then what else can you do. Only she knows the answer to that; she is the one that has to live with her decision(s). No one can help falling out of love or feeling what they feel. However, as I mentioned earlier, I think there is an extra duty with children involved to filter choices through the "we" filter instead of the "me" filter.

So what about this made my stomach turn in knots? PROJECTION WARNING. Being an adult and emotionally health individual, although I may be hurt, angry, frustrated, etc. like any normal person if I was being dumped, I could get over it. I could even respect my ex if she was honest with me about her feelings and gave it her best (how could one not?) Being a private person (insert projection), the ultimate disrespect would be taking the smoldering embers of my life and turning it into some trite story of self-improvement in order to sell some magazines for my new employer. Putting myself in her shoes, I would feel so busted up about the whole matter, I feel I could at least respect my family by not commercializing their pain for my own gain. That is what really rubs me.

KingRat, on that I can agree. My take is anyone on staff has to print something to earn their paycheck. There are millions of things she could write about. This was not fair to her ex or kids.

Do you personally feel that mothers face unique relationship changes (pre/post-birth) and fathers do not?

I mean, it MAY be that there some issues that are more likely to be experienced by women but that certainly wasn’t my point. I spoke anecdotally to "mothers" because as I indicated, the vast majority of the people who post on pregnancy/parenting board that I mentioned. I’m not trying to pit mothers vs. fathers – or saying its right or wrong or that anyone is to blame. I think it’s just hard because there is so much change so fast and new. I imagine that relationship satisfaction as a whole takes a nosedive – I think there is a bunch of literature on that but I don’t hold myself out as any sort of expert on it. I know the transition to parenthood was a huge adjustment for my husband too.

So I do not presume: I read this paragraph and more specifically this sentence as you're speaking of the mother/W resenting the father/H as well as a generalization that "many" fathers/H's are not mostly good. If so...

Again – same as above. I’m describing an anecdotal phenomenon I’ve experienced myself, talked about with other "new-mom" friends and seen on this parenting app which is frequented mainly by new mothers. I was attempting to be gender neutral about it to take account for the fact that not all couples are heterosexual (for example, I have a lesbian new-mom friend who vented to me about some of her resentments of her wife). I do not suggest it is a mother-specific phenomenon by any means, though mothers often take on the more typical "primary caregiver" responsibilities (whether that’s through maternal gatekeeping etc), and I do think a lot of the resentment comes from perceived imbalances here (real or imagined). Obviously there are good and bad spouses of all sexes. I’m by no mean suggesting there are more "bad" male spouses.

How sad it would be for the mother to commonly resent the father -even if the father is mostly good.

I 100% agree that the resentment is unfortunate and incredibly toxic. Sorry, it’s so common in my current cohort right now that its easy to forget the concept might be at all novel. If you’re interested, I often see a book called "How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids" recommended – though I can’t say I’ve read it. The posts I see are often something to the effect of, "I swear my husband is a good guy and we barely fought pre-baby, and he is doing all sorts of things to help me out but I find myself being annoyed with him constantly. How do I stop resenting him so much?" I mean you hear about guys that go to work and come home and play video games all night while their partner who hasn't slept more than 2 consecutive hours in over a month watches the baby too, but I'm not saying that's the norm. I think it’s just a lot of change all at once and everyone flails while trying to sort out their new roles and responsibilities – same with any difficult situation in a marriage, some couples handle it better than others.

When hearing someone speak of conflict, we've all heard the saying that "there's three sides to every story", right? May I ask how many of these situations you were able to hear from both sides? It's true that even here on SI that we may read a BS's words but not the WS. But, if the BS has experienced adultery, there's not much of another side to hear in terms of judging the WS's actions as wrong.

Oh totally – As I mention, my commentary here is purely anecdotal. I am certainly hearing only one side of the story. I wish more fathers posted on the parenting boards. Again, that misses the point though, I’m not passing judgement on anyone who isn’t able to work it out - that's kind of my point. It’s hard, I assume most people are doing the best they can. Marriages can fail without anyone necessarily being to blame. I’m also not suggesting that the mothers are being reliable narrators. I can have empathy for their perspective and pain though without needing to adjudicate on how "right" or justified they are in feeling it.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my post (I was very distracted yesterday). When I wrote this paragraph:

In reading this thread, whether people read the article or not, people (especially women) are going to hear that divorce, especially with young children, is selfish and wrong. That it is giving up. That it is worthy of judgment and condemnation. That any unhappiness they have in their marriage, if it doesn’t include beating or cheating, is a frivolous, selfish problem.

My concern about the judgement, was not on behalf of the author of the opinion place. I agree – she writes an article and publishes it, she opens herself up to judgment. My concern was that BS HERE that identify with her in part (or even that don’t) will read our commentary on this woman (who is not a cheater as far as we know), and see all the judgments made about her readiness to divorce, and feel dissuaded from doing so (when perhaps that is the best choice for them) because of the concern that they will be judged for their parenting. If you want to judge people’s parenting – sure, let’er rip…. I just think we should be careful about it HERE as this is not a parenting board. Obviously its relevant to the infidelity context but again, here we are discussing a woman who is not a Wayward.

Maybe? I suppose it's plausible. What source do you use to found that on?

I myself was intimidated from writing here when I got here due to certain voices. I avoid certain topics and posts even now in order to avoid certain inevitable responses or to avoid debates I don't have the energy to take part in. I am not sure I’m supposed to talk about this but I have been PM’d here on more than one occasion, including in relation to my posts on this topic, by members who thanked me for saying something that they felt unable or uncomfortable raising themselves.

To be clear, I’m not telling Thumos to be quieter. As I’ve mentioned, I think he is a useful voice here and to many, a leader. With great power, comes great responsibility right?

Loud is not synonymous with being capable of articulating or debating (not arguing) a thought. I'll leave it at that.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting I'm being loud here. Its okay if you are, it certainly will not have been the first time.

That's not a license to be hateful (not suggesting he has been). But it is a license for him to have strong feelings make their way out in less-than-perfect (in the eye of the beholder...) ways from time to time.

Absolutely. If he were talking about an article about a woman who left her husband for cheating, I likely wouldn’t have said a thing.

Unless everyone sharing their .02 here has the identical foundation for values, morals, communication, etc., there is bound to be a difference of opinion.

Agreed. It’s one of the things I like about this place

I can only speak from the point of view of a father/H who discovered 12 years of lies and infidelity while my third child was 5 months old...

At the risk of veering off-topic, NotMyFirstRodeo, I'm so sorry. I had not heard your story before. I truly cannot imagine navigating that with three little ones.

E8, fair enough. Thanks for taking the time to share.

I've yet to share my stupid story. But thank you.

[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 1:01 AM, Saturday, January 8th]