SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I read here frequently, "We promised we would never cheat on each other. If you are gonna cheat, then just ask for a divorce. Don't lie and pretend." I used to believe that I felt that way too

This phrase is based on the unmet needs fallacy. I also used to think this. I now think that people that say this simply don't understand the motivation for infidelity or what cake eating is. It very frequently has nothing to do with marital dissatisfaction.

If the home is 'stable', should partners stay together at all costs even if one or both aren't particularly happy?

...

the relationship was no longer serving me or adding the level of positivity to my life that I expect a romantic relationship to contribute.

They should figure out *why* or *what* is making them unhappy and fix it (if fixable) or learn to cope with it (if not). They have a stable situation to do it in. There is a great SNL skit called "Romano Tours" that I highly recommend everybody watch. "Remember, you're still going to be you on vacation. If you are sad where you are and then you get on a plane to Italy, the you in Italy will be the same sad you from before, just in a new place." If you take the same unhappy you, divorce, and move to NYC, it's still the same unhappy you but in a different place in a different relationship status.

Say your H didn't cheat. Say you found yourself sufficiently dissatisfied to do MC (fully functioning MC between honest partners working for a better M). Did he have the capacity to be the romantic partner that would add the positivity you expect from a romantic partner? If not, does anyone? Like, among the many relationships you have observed and been in, is there a specific example you can think of where you would say, "That's what I want from a spouse!"

I'm not suggesting anyone should stay in an abusive relationship. If you go through the steps, practically, of assessing the strengths and weaknesses of the marriage, and find yourself still unhappy in a *strong* marriage, the marriage isn't the problem. You are. If you are the source of your unhappiness, then you have to do a whole other world of IC and perhaps medication to figure that one out.

It's like blaming your car and getting rid of it and buying a new one because you refuse to change the oil. Your next car isn't gonna work very long without oil changes either.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:26 PM, Tuesday, January 4th]

I'll concede this in the eye of the beholder. But I think it needs to be a pretty high bar. Since we know marriage is both joyous and hard work, just throwing in the towel over some vague sense of ennui and superficiality does not seem to meet that bar. That's definitely the cause with Honor. She can't even adequately explain it, and tries to prettify a dull and gross decision with a bunch of purple prose.

This is kinda what I'm driving at though. You read her article as ennui and superficiality. I don't think there's enough info in this article to say that one way or the other. Sure, the surface reasons in there seem superficial, but I don't know if they really were or if there was years of resentment/discontent under them (though I suspect that's the case because of reading it through my own lens). Like in my own case with my xwh refusing to make the bed. Duuuude, I would have divorced him over that shit eventually. Seems superficial. But it SO wasn't. The thing was not the thing - the thing was the underlying disrespect. But if I wrote an article about the bed not being made and me divorcing him over that, I would seem shallow and superficial too. Maybe I just have a little more empathy for the author because we are both women, but I just don't read the same superficiality in it as you do.

And Ellie, I would actually position your own case in strong high tone contrast against that of Honor Jones. They are nothing alike. Have you thought about the possibility that your own discontent in the marriage (which you saw more clearly in retrospect after D-Day) might have really been driven by your husband, not you?

Well of course I have had those thoughts. And yes, I do think the larger portion of the issues stemmed more from him and his bullshit. But for me to lay it all on him would be to dodge my own accountability, and that I will not do. I give myself a wide bit of grace - I was in survival mode in the last year or so of my marriage and had really mentally checked out, but I still bore responsibility for my choices and decisions and lack of actions. I learned from it though, and will not make the same mistakes in the future.

I mean to say, because he was in fact a wayward, maybe he was that way for a long time, and perhaps he drove an intimacy wedge into your marriage as a form of predictive programming for his infidelity. I don't know at all, you were there.

You know, I didn't see this while he was doing it (frog in a pot), but he most definitely did do this. Of course with hindsight it made this kind of stuff make a LOT more sense. But referring back to my previous response - Yes he did this, but I also didn't step up and say WTF. I knew we had problems, but I didn't address them either. That part IS on me, but it taught me a valuable lesson that I am glad to have learned about communication and fearlessly using my voice to advocate for myself. That lesson will serve me well going forward I think and I wouldn't learn it if I just pointed the finger all at him and didn't examine my own issues in the marriage too. Were they 50/50? Probably not. But they darn sure weren't 100/0.

They should figure out *why* or *what* is making them unhappy and fix it (if fixable) or learn to cope with it (if not).

But what if it isn't fixable, for whatever reason? The option at that point is just to stay stuck and miserable forever? Color me crazy, but that doesn't sound good for either the miserable partner or the not miserable one. Maybe I just feel differently because of my own history, but I wouldn't want to be either partner in that equation. I'd rather be alone than to be stuck in marriage where I'm lonely and alone.

Did he have the capacity to be the romantic partner that would add the positivity you expect from a romantic partner? If not, does anyone? Like, among the many relationships you have observed and been in, is there a specific example you can think of where you would say, "That's what I want from a spouse!"

Mine definitely did not, and no amount of counseling would have done anything about it. He was (is) incapable of empathy, incapable of self-reflection, and possessed not one iota of humility. All of those things are necessary ingredients for getting something meaningful out of counseling IMHO.

As to the "that's what I want from a spouse" - yeah, I actually DO have many examples of that in my own family. Specifically two of my uncles that are both married forever (one just celebrated 50 years and the other 45 years) and my irascible grandfather, Pops. He was a grumpy ol fucker and ornery as hell (and the older I get, the more like him I become LOL), but he absolutely worshipped my grandmother until his dying day. They had hardship sure, but he treated her always with love and affection and respect and both of his sons treat their wives with that same level of love and respect. So I want THAT. And won't settle again for less.

But what if it isn't fixable, for whatever reason? The option at that point is just to stay stuck and miserable forever?

In order to try not to talk past each other. If you discover it's a problem with the marriage, and what you and your spouses expectations are for each other, and that it can't be fixed or coped with, then divorce makes sense on the conditions of "irreconcilable differences".

A marriage ending that way shouldn't end with the one spouse saying "We are divorced now? And for what? Why?"

It should end with, "I'm sorry we couldn't work it out, and understand why you need to go."

I'm glad you have examples of what you expect. Unmeetable expectations can be the source of much unhappiness.

I was once introduced to the equation:

Satisfaction = Experience - Expectation

I'm not suggesting low expectations are necessarily a good thing, because then you will tolerate poorer experiences. But you have to find the right balance.

I suspect that Ms. Jones hasn't honestly figured out her expectations.

While we are on the subject, I do think this is an area Esther Perel does make good points on. If you are piling on every expectation to your spouse, Romantic, Emotional, Material, etc. support, it is unlikely you'll be happy with them. Figure out what only your spouse should give you (presumably romantic, but some people manage ethical open relationships). Build a good network of friends. Have a therapist. Get material support. No one can be everything and it seems like the author was expecting herself to be everything, and perhaps expecting the same from her husband. So an adjustment downward in expectations when they are frankly unrealistic or push the boundaries of human capability isn't a bad thing.

I'd rather be alone than to be stuck in marriage where I'm lonely and alone.

Yeah, that. If my life with someone isn't better than my life without them, that's a problem. I don't think that's a selfish thing to say. We're not here to martyr ourselves to the institution of marriage. It's not a deity. No one should be in a marriage because they feel stuck even if there's no abuse involved. It should be something you cherish. Honor Jones may be a vapid shallow person who can't be satisfied or she may be someone who was married to a man she didn't love in a life that wasn't fulfilling. She doesn't really give enough info to determine that. As someone else mentioned, she seems to refer to her ex-husband almost as if he were a prop in her former life, so that has me leaning towards shallow and entitled, but we don't know. Maybe she didn't work hard enough to keep her marriage alive or maybe she never would have been happy with that particular man. Maybe she doesn't want the role of wife, and that's acceptable too. There are a thousand things we don't know from that short little article.

Either way, I can't judge her divorce to be wrong. If she was shallow and entitled, her husband is better off without her. If she did not love him, they're both better off divorced.

Eeeeesh.... Thumos, I say this with all sorts of respect and even fondness, but your misogyny is showing.

Essentially, she was bored, dear reader. That's it. Oh, and how the horrible patriarchy has kept her down.

I mean this Honor Jones lady, for instance. She references the patriarchy a lot, and how she just needs the space the think about it. That's why she broke up her family? Over a vague sociological concept developed from within neo-Marxist theory.

It sometimes feels like these particular women writers are like the drunk guy at the end of the bar shouting "you wanna piece of me!?

In Honor Jones' case (and I just can't get over the irony in that name) she just had this vague sense of ennui, and the fancy kitchen and Cheerios and the fabulous husband were just such a burden for her, so she walked away from providing a stable marital home environment for her children. On purpose. She introduced the chaos. On purpose. That's basically dereliction of duty.

Yuck... (also btw, the word "patriarchy" is used only once and it is a throwaway reference to her interests vs. something to blame for her unhappiness).

I read the article - fully expecting her to be entirely unbearable and have little self-awareness. That's not necessarily what I found. I read an essay about a woman who, married young (perhaps too young?) and despite having achieved a life that she thought she wanted (and looked good from the outside), had inexplicably lost her sense of identity in marriage and parenthood. Does she come across a little self-absorbed? Yes, but it is a personal essay so that is to be expected. I do not see her blaming her husband for her unhappiness - quite the opposite in fact. I actually see respect for him and express acknowledgment that her choices blew up his life (as well as the lives of her children). I see someone who has over-burdened herself by taking on the oppressive societal (and likely internal) expectations of a modern family - something I very much identify with at this current moment in time. Like the writer, I too, am a modern "career-woman" adjusting to life and marriage (and identity!!) with toddlers. She has 3 children all 6 and under - that's a lot, during a pandemic no less and in a city far from her friends and "network".

You didn't identify with her? That's fine. You are a man from a different generation - I wouldn't expect you to. It seems like your main concern ("disgust" may be more apt) however, is that a woman, nay a mother (gasp!), should be anything other than selfless and how dare she divorce a husband who isn't a literal cartoon villain. How dare this woman, again - a mother! - be anything other than grateful for a nice family and a nice house. She is so selfish and frivolous and to want anything more or, more specifically, anything else.

Look, I'm not going to weigh in on whether she was justified in ending her marriage. Want to know why? Because it's none of my god-damned business. She is a full-grown adult human and can make whatever choices she wishes to make. I don't think she needs to justify these choices in an article: a) because that's not what it's about; b) because she still loves and respects her husband who is not a bad guy, and she has to CO-PARENT with him. To be clear, I assume she is intentionally not publicly airing her "list of grievances" about her marriage out of respect for him. I feel like most of the negative comments about her "lack of honor" are mostly related to people not trusting women to make their own decisions. Its kind of gross.

Thumos, I appreciate that you have "stayed for the kids" under unthinkable circumstances but that is your cross to bear. It is not fair or proper for you to expect it for anyone else. It is certainly not everyone's path.

Also, I don't see what any of this has to do with infidelity.

Yeah, bailing on the kids is the part I have a problem with. Could not have figured this out before involving kids?
This is not a gender deal. For every burden or disadvantage of one gender, one can come up with a corresponding one for the other.
There is no patriarchy these days, and it is debatable whether there ever was such a thing. Similar arguments could be made for the existence of a Gynocracy as well as examples of misandry within this thread.
Thing is no one gets a completely satisfying life. If this woman felt unfulfilled, as her husband probably does too, wait until the kids are grown before bailing.
We live way longer now than in the past. There would be plenty of time to chase her dreams later. I wonder if her husband would have consented to having all these kids if she had been upfront with him. Surely this dissatisfaction did not just suddenly pop up after kid number 3. She sandbagged this guy.

Thumos, I say this with all sorts of respect and even fondness, but your misogyny is showing.

I guess I'm just old school...or caught up in the patriarch...but I am curious. What does one call a woman that agrees with his assessment? I think I could have saved The Atlantic some space with some simple editing: I wanted a certain life...got a kitchen I thought I could remodel as part of my self-improvement. I suddenly realized there was no real happiness in soapstone - that there would still be cheerios on the floor. So I burned the whole house down. Hey, it at least gave me fodder for a self-improvement article. #successfulindependentwomenunite [yawn]

I had my first child at 22 yo. It was a conscious decision (can't blame fate there) but alas, not a well-thought out one. Because, hey...I was 22. I had absolutely zero idea about what I should want in life...not even the notion yet that I should be even considering that. I had my second child 4 years later. A much more conscious, thought-out decision - despite that my life and marriage was in shambles. I didn't know how I was going to do it all...still had no clue what I really wanted. But I did know that I didn't want my child to grow up without siblings - as an only like I had. Strange how one un-thought out decision could lead to a duplicate but carefully considered decision - despite the fact that I still had no idea if I was on any kind of path that I actually desired. I loved my children dearly...but I never considered myself to inherently be a mom. It wasn't my life desire. But it was the choice I made...and upon that, it became my responsibility to make that a priority. I honestly cannot imagine upheaving them, dismantling their lives, simply because I wasn't fulfilled. And I sure as hell cannot imagine blaming it on soapstone and cheerios. Geesh, I would have been too embarrassed to admit that - much less to hang it out as a banner, to call such drivel a career.

Aside from misogyny, patriarchy, feminism, or even self-awareness...can we all just at least admit that the path to fulfillment is a little more complex than soapstone...or demolishing your whole life? That it actually involves introspection...and maybe sometimes finding a way to be happy "in spite" of rather just "instead of". Seems to me that this author had nothing she could actually blame her unfulfillment on so she created it. Strangely enough, now that she's demolished her whole life she seems fulfilled - for reasons not given. Me thinks she just needed distraction. Maybe she should have considered quartz. [shrug]

There is no patriarchy these days, and it is debatable whether there ever was such a thing. Similar arguments could be made for the existence of a Gynocracy as well as examples of misandry within this thread.

Eeesh again....

Eeeeesh.... Thumos, I say this with all sorts of respect and even fondness, but your misogyny is showing

I would have the same level of fun with a male writer, and I think in fact I have. It just so happens the subgenre of the moment (launched by Eat, Pray, Love and continuing forward today with a stream of magazine articles and books like this) is the province of almost entirely women writers. The minute some vapid self-regarding self-justifying man comes along with similar drivel, I will be happy to pile on.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:29 PM, Tuesday, January 4th]

I'm sorry, I'm re-reading and there is just SO MUCH

And yet she makes the point precisely that her husband was great and didn't do this. And she already had a career. It was simply about boredom. And Cheerios.

She didn't make this point. She never said he was great. She did say she loved him. She said he was "broad-shouldered and caring" and her loss of identity in her role as his wife wasn't remotely his fault. She said that this was what she thought she wanted at age 21.

She DOES indicate that she didn't write much when she was a wife.... which is maybe not great for someone who works as a writer. "I lay down in the dark house and, like I had for so many years as a wife, wrote nothing."

Even though she had a fulltime housekeeper.

She had a lady that came and cleaned once a week - that is hardly the same as a full-time housekeeper. They have 3 kids age 6 and under, if you presume they both work (even if they didn't) - I can't imagine she is in any way bored. Little kids make messes more than once a week.

Her whole life was never about facilitating others' lives. That's why she felt "empowered" to leave in the first place.

We don't know this. Should women NOT feel "empowered" marriages in which they are unhappy? Are they only entitled to be unhappy if there is adultery or abuse? Is there a reason "empowered" needed to be in quotations?

Her husband placed more priority on that than she did.

Where on earth do you get this from?

Her fantasies about other men and women alluded to in the piece also kinda give away the game.

This has been touched on already but I don't get the impression at all she's in a hurry to be with anyone else. The whole point seems to be that she wants to be on her own to see who she is. She is throwing out random things because she is trying to figure out what kind of person she'll be on her own.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 10:36 PM, Tuesday, January 4th]

This has been touched on already but I don't get the impression at all she's in a hurry to be with anyone else. The whole point seems to be that she wants to be on her own to see who she is. She is throwing out random things because she is trying to figure out what kind of person she'll be on her own.

Yeah, I didn't read anything she wrote as being ready to find another person. It read more to me like she needed to live without all of that. It's easy to get caught up in whatever path you think you're supposed to tread in life only to wake up later and wonder if that's really all there is. The life you pick out at 22 isn't the life you'll want at 32 when you've had more time to get to know yourself as an adult.

The point here (not advocating for her choice as was mentioned elsewhere) that I take is that her wants and wishes and needs changed from when she married at age 21 to when the article was written. That happens as people mature and grow and learn new things. I can tell you for damn sure my needs and wants now at 40 are WAY different than they were when I was 21, hell they are different now than they were 3 years ago.

I think the whole purpose of talking about her cabinets and countertops and housekeeper were her saying "I had what is considered to be the "perfect" life" and then wondering why the hell she doesn't feel perfectly happy with it. Do I necessarily agree with her choices? No I don't. But I do agree with her right to MAKE those choices in the way she did - she didn't cheat, she didn't spend all her husband's money and run up 50k of cc debt trying to find her happy, she didn't turn to substances... she made a conscious decision to end her marriage because SHE didn't fit there anymore. And sorry, but having divorced parents is NOT the worst thing that can happen to a kid. From her account, it seems to me that her and their dad are making every effort to have an amiable and loving and supportive co-parent relationship. Coming from me, who's divorced dad literally didn't speak to my mom more than three times in my whole ass life, I really think her kids are not going to be scarred forever cus their parents divorced.

Should women NOT feel "empowered" marriages in which they are unhappy?

Apparently not emergent. So long as we aren't being actively beaten or abused and we have cabinetry and countertops, we should just shut up and sit down.

Jeezy peets I am so glad to be divorced and single right now!

Apparently not emergent. So long as we aren't being actively beaten or abused and we have cabinetry and countertops, we should just shut up and sit down.

Oh come on, now. I say that with fondness too. I've said no such thing and never would. If the shoe were on the other gender, and this was a male writer sharinng the same vapid sentiments, I'd have the same set of criticisms -- and would happily skewer him.

In my country we had a former prime minister named Paul Keating, who was famous for his verbal barbs, traded during question time in Parliament. One which is still remembered 30 years later was - "Well, the thing about poor old Costello, he's all tip and no iceberg, you know."

The article’s author seems to me to be ‘all tip, no iceberg’.

In reading all the posts (all of which are great BTW), I remembered this Eleanor Roosevelt quote:

"Happiness is not a goal, it is a by-product. Paradoxically, the one sure way not to be happy is deliberately to map out a way of life in which one would please oneself completely and exclusively. For what keeps our interest in life and makes us look forward to tomorrow is giving pleasure to other people."

Of course, for all his exceptional gifts and contributions, FDR was a chronic WS. It’s a shame, because Eleanor was one wise women.

I also remembered a comment by Esther Perel, who I have some time for. She said in an interview that except in situations of abuse or addiction, most children would want their parents to stay together, because it’s ‘their story’.

I like to think that I can find meaning in life in a way which overlaps with those around a me, does justice to them, and where my future is somewhat contiguous with my past.

Oh come on, now. I say that with fondness too. I've said no such thing and never would.

No you haven't Thumos I said it sarcastically-ish...

Just saying that a person (man or woman) choosing to divorce because they aren't satisfied in the relationship anymore is not something I see as problematic per se, you know? I think people that get married really young DO change and sometimes those changes mean that the 'perfect' spouse/life/house etc that you dreamt of at 21 just aren't what you really want once you mature. I don't think anyone should stay in a marriage where their heart just isn't in it anymore, and I think that the reasons for that feeling can be a lot of different things and no one owes any sort of justification for feeling that way.

I was talking with my mom on new years and we were discussing our lives and all, and my xwh came up. I just told her thank you for being the kind of woman that had the balls to choose divorce and to demonstrate for your daughters that there's no shame in ending a relationship and not to fear going it alone. Not sure if her teaching us that necessarily came from the healthiest of places in her, but I can tell you that watching my mom be fearless about that helped me a LOT when it came to my divorce. Not only to know that I could do it, but also to know that vows or not I do not have to stay in a marriage that no longer adds positive enhancement to my life (a relationshit if you like). Her example made me braver when it came time to call the game in my own marriage. I tried - lord knows I did, but I was trying all by myself. Best choice I ever made for me was getting out - it set me free. And I would have done it even if we'd had kids (though I am sure the choice would have been harder to make) because I KNOW first hand that a happy single mom is a HELL of a lot better than a miserable married one.

Yeah, if a husband wrote something along these lines, it would never be published, let alone lauded. He'd sound like an asshole. Maybe husbands need to be empowered.

The minute some vapid self-regarding self-justifying man comes along with similar drivel, I will be happy to pile on.

I won't hold my breath. I also don't imagine the article will get written because the concept of men with children leaving unhappy marriages (for reasons other than abuse and infidelity) is neither novel or click-baity.

My overall point is that your main criticism with this woman seems to be that she has not provided you with what you deem an acceptable reason to get divorced (or more importantly why her husband deserved to be divorced) and therefore you (incredibly) jump to the conclusion she is a selfish Wayward.

So long as we aren't being actively beaten or abused and we have cabinetry and countertops, we should just shut up and sit down.

Don't forget housecleaners.

While Eat Pray Love was absolute garbage, there is a reason that female empowerment stories are more popular now. We aren't that much different, men and women. The main differences in us have been related to the power we've had over our own lives. Now that women don't require marrying a man to live and aren't just expected to only find fulfillment in motherhood, we act like men historically have. We pursue our own interests and want to forge our own ways in life. We don't all want to be primarily seen as a wife or a mother and we don't have to. OIN asked earlier what we thought of women being the ones to initiate about 70% of all divorces. There are a lot of potential reasons for that and she listed some possibilities. One that I've seen play out a number of times is a woman being put into a certain role in a marriage that stifles her individuality. She does most of the childcare, most of the housework, cooks most of the meals, deals with most of the extended family stuff, and works a full-time job paying half the bills. The husband is reasonably happy but the wife is exhausted. Now there may not be a man on this entire site who had a marriage like this. I'm not putting this on men as a whole. I'm not saying anything about any particular person here. My own parents have a more egalitarian marriage than that and they're in their 70s. This is a pretty common situation, though. For marriage to be worth it for a woman in this situation takes a lot. When these women leave, it's not such a sacrifice. They were already doing nearly all of the work. Now they're just minus some laundry, half the Christmas and birthday gifts to buy, and no longer seething in resentment at the other half of the couple because he's not doing a quarter of what she's doing. For some who don't believe in the patriarchy or sexism or how women are expected to fill certain roles, this won't mean much. For everyone else, you've likely seen plenty of these marriages and seen the women blossom after the divorce while the man is utterly miserable. So yes, please let's teach female empowerment and reduce the instances of situations where a man finds himself surpised at being divorced by a woman who could have taken the time to live a little before she wound up being married with children suddenly realizing that she had never even figured out what she wanted to be or understanding that she could demand more from a partner.

Dee *ahem* your empowerment is showing.... tuck it away please

Don't forget housecleaners.

I did forget the housecleaners (side-eying my filthy floors)... My stars yes. How absolute dare.