SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

At some point, you will want to clue in the wife of your WW's boss. Speak to your family lawyer when you can advise her what has been going on. You do not want to do anything in that regard right now if it might hurt your case. I suspect after you serve your WW with papers, you should go ahead and let his wife know what has been going on. Blow that jerk out of the water.

I think your attorney will confirm what others have told you re division of assets. It is pretty universal in western culture that only assets acquired during the marriage are divisible. So, you should be fine.
If you found all that explicit talk, most likely they have consummated the deal. But, if not, do you really care? Still a huge betrayal, which I presume is unacceptable.

Your wife is bad news. Jettison her. Sorry for your anguish. It's part and parcel of this infidelity deal.

Buster, you made a point about workplace affairs and secret unions. That really hit me hard. They work in a hotel together. He is high, high up and she isn’t.

Until now I have been processing the pain of how to deal with an EA. Now it occurs to me, ‘If so easily an EA, how many removes are they away from a PA?’ I actually don’t know the nitty-gritty of work in a hotel (does anyone, here?), but it strikes me that two employees, especially if one of them is quite a powerful employee, could easily find places to have sex. Just that thought makes me want to cry.

I'm afraid all it takes is an empty room for an hour or less, think about it, they are cheaters involved in an A for a year with free access to many rooms in a hotel where they see each other frquently, again this is most likely a PA, out of hundreds of cases I can't remember a single workplace LTA where it didn't result in a PA and that's without the free access to a hotel room where they don't even have to hide it being there or worry about a hotel key found in their cars (we've seen that too here on SI more than once) or any of that.

Make sure you inform OBS (Other betrayed spouse), nothing kills an A faster than full exposure with OBS, family and close friends WITHOUT WARNING (very important), it's the right thing to do, don't become an accomplice to their huge betrayals, another thing, plese do yourself a favor and confront now, cancel that trip and end this farce, you deserve so much better than this unremorseful cheater and liar.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 7:46 PM, Friday, February 4th]

As has been noted, you've been married for a very short time, no kids. The chances it was "just an emotional affair" are pretty low. Think about probability vs. possibility. It's possible it was only an emotional affair. It's much more probable it was a full-on physical affair. For a man, this is pretty much a death knell (ask me how I know) for deep and abiding affection for your wife. You may even find yourself feeling dead "down there" for her for a long time, because your body has simply decided to reject her -- and trust me your body will decide things firmly with conviction without consulting the squirrel running around in your brain.

It happens.

In any case, she's been giving you dead bedroom or starfish sex since the honeymoon, so functionally it doesn't seem to matter all that much.

So two things:

1. Only an attorney can best advise you, but in many states a short marriage does not entitle a spouse to "half." In some states you can still sue for alienation of affection in cases of infidelity. So seeing an attorney is a must.

2. Seeing an attorney is also a must because many times here on SI, a majority of folks look at a short marriage and no kids, and if infidelity is involved they recommend the faithful spouse get out as quickly as possible.

Because if your wife couldn't even be faithful in the honeymoon/newlywed stage, how do you think that will shake out long term? Also, because this has happened so early, you're left with a permanent stain going forward that will never wash out. Many reconciliation attempts are based on a long and shared history, kids, entangled finances and more. These are legitimate pragmatic reasons.

There are very few pragmatic reasons that I can see for you to remain shackled to the source of your excruciating pain. Her very physical presence is going to be a trigger for you from now on. Subjecting yourself to the mental and physical (adrenaline, cortisol, elevated BP and heart stress) damage from this is a very bad prospect.

and just get back to where we were in our first year together.

Gently, this is never going to happen. I don't mean to be overly blunt but you're never going to get back there. The marriage as you knew it is over. You can decide to try for a new and different marriage with her, but that is really far from ideal in your particular situation. After all, this is the same woman who by your own account already betrayed you before her affair by denying you intimacy right after your honeymoon.

Look at her with clear eyes. She's showing you who she is. She's not who you thought she was, and I'm sorry about that. We all are.

It would also only be common sense to also question exactly why she ended up divorced with two young children from her previous husband. I'm sure you've thought about that. I think you should, and I think you should dig a little deeper than whatever story she's told you. The withholding of sex so soon after your honeymoon seems like a classic red flag to me. It smacks of a woman who manipulated you into marriage for financial stability, and little else.

Science shows that once the "brain barrier" for infidelity is broken, it makes it easier and easier to repeat the actions with little or no guilt.

I suggest you run a version of Pascal's wager "stay vs. go" calculation on this as a thinking exercise. My guess is your wife will come up short on that.

Just my two cents.

ETA: The Pascal's wager in this case would go something like...

Weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that you should leave the marriage.

What do you stand to lose by leaving? Not much, since you've already lost it.

What do you stand to gain by leaving? At least a fair to middling chance at a better life than what you have now.

What do you stand to gain by staying? Not much, since you'll be gaining the woman you're looking at now with clear eyes.

What do you stand to lose by staying? Your health, your sanity, your own feeling of inner integrity, your daily happiness.

So okay then. If you gain by leaving, you gain much -- your sanity, your health, possibly a new and different wife (or at least a girlfriend who respects you more); if you lose, you lose relatively little (because you've already lost a faithful wife in such a short marriage).

In Pascal's formulation, wager that it's better to cut your losses. There is a happy life to gain, a larger chance of gain against a smaller number of chances of loss (and a higher number of chances to lose if you stay with an unfaithful woman).

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:17 PM, Friday, February 4th]

Sorry you had to find us. You have been given good advise, and I am glad you have set up a meeting with a lawyer.
Knowledge is power and it does a lot to diminish fear of the unknown.

The infidelity diet is brutal. If you are struggling to eat, try protein shakes. Getting good healthy nutrition will help you body and your mind. Likewise, make sure you are sleeping drinking lots of water, getting exercise, and avoiding excessive alcohol.

Get tested for STDs. We see that cheaters have sex pretty much anywhere they can (so many cars). Being in a hotel, there are more opportunities. But your health is a concern and you need to confirm all is well there.

And please remember that cheating is 100% on the cheater - it has nothing to do with how great you are. It is something broken in the cheater.

Hang in there, follow your lawyer’s advice, and take care of yourself. And watch her actions— dont’ listen to her words. Her actions tell you what you need to know.

Best of luck.

Good point above. It never ceases to amaze me how we BS accept our cheater's version of the reasons for the demise of the previous marriage and/ or the cheater' s characterization of the former spouse. Very naive.

I don’t get how things have devolved so quickly.

Because you really didn't know her, and again I'm sorry about that. I would seriously reconsider the ski vacation and happy face stuff. Since infidelity doesn't really factor into divorce in your area (and it doesn't in most) just protect your assets and let your attorney guide you. Give some serious thought to just filing and getting out of this. You don't need any more proof. And as you've already noted, they have ample opportunities in a hotel to screw around. Doesn't take much effort or imagination.

You know all you need to know.

Written timelines, polygraphs, VAR monitoring, GPS and all that tiresome spy vs. spy stuff is for people like me, who have mired themselves in deep with a dysfunctional person. I did all that, but man oh man the amount of wasted time boggles me. Why bother?

You're not in that deep. Don't go any deeper, I'd say. Also, be very very careful about physical affection or written or spoken affection with her. And get a VAR to carry around in your pocket to keep her from alleging some kind of crazy shit. It happens.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:11 PM, Friday, February 4th]

I don’t think there’s any reasons for you to keep that secret. I’m a big fan of keeping things simple and honest.

If you have joined accounts, take 1/2 and put it in a separate account. Cancel joined credit cards. Then confront her. Keep it simple. Tell her you know she’s having an affair, and you’re in the process of deciding what you will do next. Don’t argue with her, don’t prove to her that she’s cheating. If she denies it, then walk away. Cancel your ski trip, and sleep in a separate room.

You objective is to take steps to get out of this situation, and start healing.

Seek support from friends and family. You don’t have to hide anything, it’s all on her really.

My wife and I are going away with friends on a ski vacation this weekend, and I hate the idea of performing the role of her doting husband while knowing that she isn’t a great wife and while knowing that we are about to have a huge relationship-shifting confrontation.

You really don't sound well. Scratchy throat & headache. You should probably cancel just in case.

You're not in Ontario right? Ontario divorce law is a bastard about the martial home(s). Unless their was a marriage contract stating otherwise unlike other assets brought into a marriage the marital home(s) valuation at time of marriage isn't factored in when equalization is done. So in reality the equity in it is split 50/50.

[This message edited by grubs at 10:48 PM, Friday, February 4th]

Look, it sounds like she enjoys sex.

You have proof that she's exchanging highly sexualized messages with her boss.

You don't have legal proof that she's had sex with him, but if you can get past the pain and love and other emotions, and think about it logically: they've had sex.

It's really that simple. Teenagers may fool around for a long time and not have sex. Maybe even some college students. But she's in her thirties. What possible motive could she have for not having sex with him? She clearly doesn't respect your wedding vows. She clearly has no trouble looking you in the eye and lying, repeatedly. Do you truly, honestly think that there's some magical line there that would keep her from having sex with someone she really wants to have sex with, and has ample opportunity to have sex with? It's just not how an adult who lies, enjoys sex, and is perfectly happy to conceal an emotional affair of a sexual nature behaves. You're projecting how you would behave onto her. You're letting your belief that your wedding vows meant something, influence whether you think the vows mean anything to her.

In most cases (I'd guess at least 9/10), the most damage isn't from the sexual infidelity, it's from all the lying that goes along with it. There are plenty of people who can get past the fact that their spouse-- who they may have already known had had sex with multiple partners before the marriage-- has had sex with one more person. That's why there are plenty of examples of spouses moving on from unplanned one-night stands. What many people can't ever get past is knowing that their spouse directly and indirectly lied to them, repeatedly, over an extended period of time, and they could not detect it most or every time it happened. How do you ever trust that person again? You have proof that they are capable of lying to you without you knowing. You have proof that they're willing to lie to you, about incredibly important things. The fact that they found someone they lusted for or loved or whatever, and had sexual intimacy with them, is something that some people would be willing to forgive, and say, "It's in the past now, as long as it doesn't happen again, I'll be okay". But the lack of trust isn't something left behind in the past; it's every day, for a long time-- maybe forever. Some people try to overcome that with lie detector tests and tracking devices and so on; if that works for them, okay. But in most cases, it's a matter of faith: of believing, contrary to the available evidence, that the person will not lie to you about important things in the future. I think that level of unearned faith is almost always a bad decision, but that's a personal opinion.

I guess the TL;DR is: even if you don't believe they've had a PA yet, why do you still trust her? Why would you be willing to trust her in the future? Love isn't equal to marriage; there are many happy, successful marriages that are built on friendship and mutual respect, where love doesn't enter into it-- I've know several Indian couples, who have arranged marriages, that are in this category. The flip side of that is equally true: there are plenty of people who love each other that have shitty marriages, or whose marriage ends even though they still love each other. Love can be an important component of a marriage, but it's not nearly the only thing that matters. Trust and respect are two (not the only two) other important factors in any marriage. If you can't trust her, and she behaves like she doesn't respect you (or at least, not as much as she should), I don't think you're going to have a successful marriage, even if she is filled with remorse and never so much as flirts with another man again.

[This message edited by Sordid at 12:00 AM, Saturday, February 5th]

Ooooh this one is painful. Reminds me of an old post where a guys wife was working in a hotel and was fucking the manager in one of the empty rooms for years. Guess who the father of the 3 year old was?

When you talk to the family lawyer ask them about the right time to inform the OBS.

The fact that the AP is much higher up than your WS would be a big problem at many companies. Talk to your family lawyer about how that should be handled. You may be able to use silence on that to get leverage on a positive settlement. But you might prefer to notify their HR department and possibly get both of them fired.

Good luck.

If there is any interest or intent for the two to have a physical affair there are ample opportunities.
I used to work security at a large hotel that had an attached night-club (so long ago they were called disco’s back then…). I had a master-key and could enter any room at any time, as did a number of staff. I have this strange tendency to follow rules and laws… but a number of my colleagues would look at the registrar, find a free room and take a date to that room. I’m guessing not for some complimentary coffee.

I hate making assumptions and basing decisions on them.
I doubt this is some elaborate scam on her behalf.
I also doubt two grown up people with time and opportunity would initiate a written-only, elaborate shared document sex-fantasy as a first development from a originally-platonic friendship.
Are they having physical sex? I don’t know, but I rate it as highly likely.

Do you need further information? Well… yes… no.
Depends on a couple of things:
Mainly does infidelity factor in divorce? I doubt it but once again no assumptions.

Fact is the only one that needs to be convinced is YOU. If you are convinced you can confront her with what you know. This isn’t a court of law and you don’t need to follow any protocol:
"Wife. When did you plan on telling me about your affair with Mr. Hotel Manager?"

No "are you having" or "how far has it gone" – just a statement. You KNOW.

She denies and you stand firm. You KNOW. How? Doesn’t matter… maybe someone told you… maybe she forgot something… You don’t give her how you know. You even lie… a friend saw them, someone sent you proof… whatever.

At some point you can admit you know of the document, but remember that "dog ate my homework" isn’t a plausible excuse.

Her reaction on confrontation would be IMHO your clearest indicator on if R or D was your path.

Regarding OM. If this is a chain of hotels they have a HR department. I would irrespective of R or D send the HR department a mail along these lines:

"My wife works at this role at this hotel. Her manager is YY and it has been brought to my attention that he has been using his position to have an inappropriate and even sexually oriented relationship with my wife, possibly using his position of power. I expect my wife to be protected and to feel safe at her place of employment. I expect a prompt response from you on this issue so I do not have to take legal or public action to have this clarified".

You have been processing this too slow. The longer it goes more problematic it becomes. From what you describe she has little emotional investment in the marriage and may be in it for the convenience and life style

I'm sorry you're here. 2 things :

1) You will never get back to where you were in the beginning. ever. That's gone. Why? Because even if she didn't have a PA (unlikely since they have ample opportunity and privacy), you will never trust her fully again. Ever.

2) I am in the industry and can assure you that if they have the time, they're in a PA. I've been at my job for a long time and have seen more affairs between people here than I can shake a stick at. I've been accused of it myself by my WW. Sorry, but in this case I agree qith the consensus that where there's smoke, there's fire....

I'll add my $0.02 and I'm certainly not the one to tell you how to navigate the pick-me-dance or deal with the emotions. I'm the biggest enabler on this site.

But it is for this reason I have the advice that I do, that if cheating occurred early in the marriage, and especially if there are no children, then I would advise anyone to divorce, straight up, no hesitation. It takes years to rebuild trust and R the M, you will never forget, and if cheating happened that early on I wouldn't want anyone to take the chance of it happening again after there are children and your lives and finances are entwined. I can tell you from experience it is really hard to walk away, and it is absolutely awful.

But having said that, you need to handle things the way you want to handle them.

Hi all

Well what an awful weekend. I need to come to a resolution on this quickly because I am not an actor and reality is spilling over into the artifice.

The two most notable events from the weekend were: wife was on her phone almost all dinner on Saturday; I couldn’t see who she was talking to, but her phone usage was so pronounced that a few of our friends were making light jokes to her about being glued to her phone. When we gathered together for drinks after dinner, I did something I normally wouldn’t: I pretended to be on MY phone for most of it to see what type of a reaction it would garner from her.

She was actually really pissed off and left the drinks early in a huff. But then that night, she tried to have sex with me. I resisted. She went to sleep in a double-huff. By the way: would she really want to have sex with me if she were having a physical affair at the same time?

The next day, she barely spoke a word to me. Fine. It wasn’t until our drive home together that we spoke. And what happened simply blew me away: she asked ME whether I was being unfaithful. I … was … speechless. I asked her what had lead to this unbelievable query, and she said the following: "You have been distant lately; you don’t seem to be into sex as much as you used to; you’re always on your phone; I don’t know … is there someone else?"

It took every fibre of my self-restraint not to completely lose it. After a minute’s silence, where her energy shifted from defiant to uncertain to uncomfortable, I simply said, "No. I have not been unfaithful and never would. If I had problems with you, I most certainly wouldn’t solve them by cheating. People who cheat are scumbags: broken, lying, self-deceptive, manipulative scumbags." She then walked it all back and said, "No, I didn’t think you actually were. I just had to ‘go there’ to see where you ‘are’ right now’. I honestly don’t know this woman.

The rest of the ride was in silence, pretty much.

I am just so … shocked that the one who is at least emotionally cheating, probably more, has the gall to accuse me of being a cheater. Is this … a thing? It just feels like an utterly evil thing to do. Though, I understand the whole notion of projection.

Otherwise, thanks for your replies. They were hard to digest but necessary. Thanks particularly to Thumos for your notes, and for enlightening me on Pascal’s Wager. Above all, I value integrity and I don’t see a way through the woods where I could remain with my wife whilst retaining my integrity.

Sordid: your note brought me almost to tears. Above all, what struck me from it was what occurs when Trust is lost in a relationship. It’s basically the Rubicon, from which it is impossible to re-traverse.

And Bigger, thanks too: Your "I know" advice is simple and powerful. I had also seen your ‘speech’, on a few other threads, that you recommend when confronting. Both are excellent. I intend to do that this weekend, after I have seen my lawyer and with her kids at her Ex’s for the next week (starting this coming weekend).

But thanks, all. I am mentally shattered and this hasn’t even begun. If it weren’t for this place ... I’d be right on the precipice of things, I think, if I was going through this entirely alone. Though, we are all alone, at the heart of the matter – aren’t we?

There's a school of thought that says that an EA is merely a PA that didn't have an opportunity to develop for whatever reason. Since there is ample opportunity for a PA to have happened, I would put the car keys on this being a PA. The fact that she would accuse you is also very telling. Many WS project their behavior on to their BSs.

See the attorney and figure out your course of action based on their advice and recommendations.

Did you download the word document they use or have it in a safe place before you confront her?

Is it still actively being used by them?

What are some general examples of things in there that lead you to believe they are getting ready to hook up physically? What type of things written lead you to believe they haven’t already?

I wish you strength in this difficult time.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:24 PM, Monday, February 7th]

Definitely projection on her end. She knows exactly what cheating behavior looks like. Take care of you. Focus, eat healthy, exercise and see the attorney. Definitely expose the AP to his new OBS just before confronting. She has a right to know the truth and can be a valuable ally. Do not tell your WW beforehand giving her and the AP a chance to collude on a response.

You are going to be okay. You have a good head on your shoulders. Get stronger for you. Sorry you are going through this so soon in your M. Good luck.