SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

He did great, he cried while reading them we talked alot and it was so helpful. If she is that way I can guarantee in your one hour session they will tell her about it. Maybe you can request to have your individual session last after some of those activities are done?

This....

What I'm hoping for is what Felix had said, that it seemed to move the needle to her WS "getting it." That WW will be more willing/able to see my side and approach the situation toward healing and restoration.

is completely negated by this.

I want to break a classic stalemate; she has told me basically everything I have expressed to her, that she feels I'm ignoring her needs, I'm the one digging in my heels and not her, I'm refusing to meet her needs to move on, I'm refusing to forgive her and just lording that over on her. She said she's sorry, what else do I want from her, etc.

You can't make her 'get it' HCSDI. A counselor can't make her get it. A weekend program can't make her get it. Nothing will make her get it. She doesn't get it because it is not worth her effort to do so and she flat-out doesn't want to work that hard. She has had a year plus since dday of acting like an utter spoiled brat and doing whatever the hell she wants and getting whatever she wants with NO regard for her husband or her marriage or her children, and (here's the kicker) she sleeps just fine at night. Her life is peachy except for you being all butt-hurt that she cheated on you and if you could just get over it so she wouldn't have to keep being inconvenienced by your pesky little feelings that would be great, yeah? Also, make sure you do what she tells you and buy her whatever she wants cus you said a mean thing one time 15 years ago.

I know how it feels to have a spouse act like this, with this lack of empathy and gobsmacking attitude of entitlement - my xwh was exactly the same. And let me tell you - you might be able to fake being okay with that for a while, but in the long term that shit will eat you alive. It will kill whatever soul wasn't murdered by the affair. You deserve more than that my friend.

I suspect she's more likely to "get it" if you give up doing any of the work and make moves to extricate yourself. As long as you are the one doing the work, she just has to go about her usual life and participate when necessary to keep you happy enough to avoid divorce. It seems to me that you're doing that thing that we pretty much all do in the aftermath. We try to find the right words, the right combination of sentences, the right therapy that will break through and make them see your perspective. You are an eloquent man. I'm absolutely positive that you have strung together words and sentences when speaking to her that would break our hearts with empathy for you. Sometimes you have to accept that it isn't that she doesn't hear you, she just disagrees with your reality. Maybe she cries and apologizes sometimes and seems to feel something that you want to believe is directed at sadness over hurting you. You get a shot of hopium, you decide there's enough there to work with. She relaxes and returns to her regular life while you're still bleeding out in the background.

I want to understand this correctly. Your WW’s dug in position is that prior to the A you were not a good husband, treated her poorly, snd thus created the conditions that pushed her towards having an A?

HCSDI - I think some others have made good points. Some may seem/feel harsh.
I think there are plenty of reasons why it doesn't appear very likely your WS will emerge from an intensive as a changed person.. AND I can certainly relate to the many reasons why we all (or most) want to try and heal our Ms (with, IMO/IME, varying levels of doing so at the expense of our OWN needs).

I think if you have the time and the $$ to go on an intensive, great.
I also think it's REALLY important to manage your expectations about it.
And I also think it's even more important to give yourself LOTS of space to work on you and to consider where YOU will be if the intensive does not deliver to your expectations (no matter how well managed).

You say you have a couple of "small" boundaries - and I can't tell if they are or aren't being respected. I guess the thing for me is that healing from infidelity, IMO/IME, requires BIG boundaries and the ability/commitment to enforce them.

So, I suppose that's just a friendly reminder to keep yourself in the focus (and not putting all your eggs in an intensive weekend basket).

So, I suppose that's just a friendly reminder to keep yourself in the focus (and not putting all your eggs in an intensive weekend basket).

In the end most BS has to feel they pursued all options to R before leaving. That "all options" vary per individual. HCSDI is still in that process but eventually either he or his WS will get there.

Grubs - I don't disagree with that at all.

I also believe that regardless of what happens in the M, it's super important (I'd say crucial) that the BS works on themselves and heals themselves and regains the self esteem to set & enforce boundaries.

I believe / experienced that the effort & energy a BS puts into trying to drag the WS into R (or becoming R worthy) is energy NOT spent on the BS doing their own self exploration. It's no secret that I spent nearly two years trying to do that dragging in my own sitch.

So - I'm not saying the intensive is a "bad" (for lack of better word) idea. Not at all. I AM saying that focusing on OURSELVES is just as (or really MORE) important.

And maybe that hope can be a double-edged sword, to the extent that if all our eggs are in the R basket with a WS who has repeatedly demonstrated they aren't R material, that realization can be its own blow, on top of months / years of routinely receiving blows. IOW - we had 12 eggs, put 'em all into the R basket, and now we got zero.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 2:20 AM, Wednesday, February 16th]

Ellie
I've always loved your passion and that you come to my defense and I've always felt that you were on my side. I really appreciate that. I don't see WW as a spoiled brat, more like a hurt kid who lashes out at the other kids on the playground. What I see is her damaged, very self-focused and very sensitive. It doesn't excuse anything and it is still very painful for me, but this is her and has been her for a long time. It helps to not take it so personally.

Dee
Ditto for you as well Dee. And everything you said I have lived for over a year now. So yes, I'm looking for the right solution, the right environment, the right combination so that she'll come around. It may not work. And I believe you're right, she disagrees with my reality, that's a good way to put it. What kills me though is she has had periods of being wonderful. Sensitive, caring, apologetic. This intensive is specifically about infidelity. They advertise it as not a general-purpose marriage retreat, but specific to the needs of treating infidelity. Yes it may not work but here's the thing... in MC WW was hearing, I literally think for the first time, that she needs to take ownership for the cheating, and that she is responsible for how she treats me no matter what. Because of that I believe, I have seen some effort on her part to address those. Not enough yet for sure, but the trend is in the right direction. So I do have some evidence that an intensive specifically geared toward treating infidelity will help.

Dude
I promise you, she will not see any irony or hypocrisy at all in the situation. None.

gmc
One of the reasons I have hope is an article I read that a focused weekend intensive can accomplish a lot more and go deeper than multiple weeks of therapy. And combined that the EMS is specific for infidelity I do have hope that we'll get farther along. But yes, it has been a while and so I have some temper on my expectations.

The "big" boundaries are things like accountable for time and whereabouts, tracking her phone, reminders get put away, triggers are respected, no lying. She respects those and always has. The other big boundary is the "I can't be in a marriage with unaddressed adultery" which is less of a boundary that she has to respect, and more of an understanding that I need this addressed for the marriage to work. There is another boundary that I believe I discovered that I haven't really put words to, something like "I need this marriage to be able to respond to my hurt and concerns with compassion, empathy, and respect." That certainly seems obvious to me.

The "small" boundaries came from a discussion where I directly said I was still very hurt by her 6 week back-to-work abandonment and refusing any repair over the phone. I said she owes me an apology and an amends for it. She sat in silent refusal. That was weeks ago and nothing still. I'll probably go to my grave first. Now you also have to know that she was looking forward to using her travel perks of free flight miles and hotel for quick weekend getaways and such. Since this is all directly related to her job, the small boundary is that until I get my apology and amends, I'm not using her benefits. I would love to take a quick weekend trip and she can use her benefits, but I will buy my own ticket and book / pay for the hotel room. I am also not willing to attend any work related party or function until we address it. So I told her that I won't get angry or be a prick about it. But I'm hurt and this is something I feel I am entitled to. So it is small but I know it bothers her but she hasn't talked about it. She can use the benefits on the kids, or in other ways, and that's fine.

grubs
Thank you for encouraging and wise words. She may be the one to pull the plug, and I accept that. Either of us can leave the marriage at any time for any reason.

But are YOU ready to pull the plug? Some waywards never get it. Are you prepared for that? My XWH didn't. Just sayin'.

HCSDI, you're welcome you and thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

I don't recommend that you wait until "you're out of gas" because life is precious and nobody knows how many quality years we have left. I know your wife would agree with me, because she is always asking you for an "end date." I don't think you owe her an end date, but I do think you owe one to yourself.

As an exercise (just for yourself, not with your wife) write down a hypothetical deadline for how long you want to stick it out (whether it's 6 months, 1 year, or 2 years). Then write down goals for your R that you want fulfilled before that time is up. Track those bench marks and then when your "deadline" is up, make a decision to keeping chugging along or pull the plug.

As it currently stands, your marriage is like a car that's stuck in a ditch. You're pushing as hard as you can to get the car out; all she is doing is making fake grunting noises without actually helping you.

So the next time she gets frustrated about the lack of progress in R or the fact that you're not over her affair, look her straight in the eye and tell her this could all be over tomorrow, if that's what she wants. You will file for divorce and then you can move both on with your lives. But if she wants to stay married to you, it has to be a new and healthier marriage, which is only possible if she's willing to quit complaining and do the work.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:31 AM, Wednesday, February 16th]

I've always loved your passion and that you come to my defense and I've always felt that you were on my side. I really appreciate that. I don't see WW as a spoiled brat, more like a hurt kid who lashes out at the other kids on the playground. What I see is her damaged, very self-focused and very sensitive. It doesn't excuse anything and it is still very painful for me, but this is her and has been her for a long time. It helps to not take it so personally.

*hugs* I always was the kid that would go to the mats on the bully for pickin on people... The more things change the more they stay the same eh? I hear what you're saying, but it's dangerous for you to put softeners on her behavior, and couching her appalling behavior in 'hurt child' terms is doing just that. Because my dear, she is NOT a child - she isn't a hurt little kid - she is a grown ass person. She is a woman who CHOSE to do this thing and has continued to choose to do hurtful and selfish things and show no consideration for you.

I AM on your side hcsdi. I've told you this before, but I see soooooo much of my own situation in yours. I see so much of my own cling-to-it-for-dear-life hope in you, and so much of my overly entitled xwh in your ww. Here's the thing my friend - you can hope all day long that things will improve and that you will somehow land on the magical combo of words/gifts/etc that will make her wake up.... but that magical combo doesn't exist. I did a lot of the same mental tap-dancing after dday in my situation too. When my xwh told me all about how he felt put upon by me before dday (pick your emotion - mad, sad, ignored, unloved, emasculated, wah-wah-wah charlie brown's teacher), I also felt like I had to make up for the things I did. Yeah - how fucked is that? HE cheated, and I felt like I owed him. Whaaaat?

Meanwhile, while I was twisting myself up about what a horrible wife I had been, was my darling hubs reflecting on his actions and how badly he had hurt me? No he was not. He was researching 'how to practice polyamory with a reluctant wife' (hand to god that was an actual google search he did a few weeks after dday), he was talking about trips we needed to take (that I would pay for of course), he was planning on opening his own shop (which I would also pay for) to which end he was researching banks that I could go to to take out a loan. The things he was NOT researching were 'how to deal with my wife's pain when I cheated on her' or 'therapists near me' or 'why did I cheat'.

I spent months trying to make up for all my "wrongs" while he did n-o-t-h-i-n-g, nada, zip, zero about his. Am I saying that there weren't some potential marital issues that would need addressing eventually? Of course not - we had our problems, same as any couple. But after an affair, that is THE issue - anything else takes a very distant back seat to the affair. And if you have a wayward who doesn't get that, it really doesn't bode well for R. And it is entirely possible to waste months, years, and decades of your life trying to convince a wayward to R - look around here at how many people have done just that. Trust me when I tell you it isn't worth it. That's the whole sunk cost fallacy that we BS's fall for, but throwing more months and years at it ain't gonna make a bad situation better. All that'll do is erode your being and hurt you more.

My situation didn't improve until I stopped making excuses for him (that he was damaged, that he had unresolved childhood issues, that he didn't know how to help me etc) and started demanding he step up and deal with his shit like a grown up. And guess what? Once I did that, it became very clear very quickly that he was not capable of stepping up, not in the way I needed him to to be able to heal from his affair. And that hit me hard but it also got me out of infidelity; it got me out of the toxic place my marriage had become and that was so worth it.

Ditto for you as well Dee. And everything you said I have lived for over a year now. So yes, I'm looking for the right solution, the right environment, the right combination so that she'll come around. It may not work. And I believe you're right, she disagrees with my reality, that's a good way to put it. What kills me though is she has had periods of being wonderful. Sensitive, caring, apologetic. This intensive is specifically about infidelity. They advertise it as not a general-purpose marriage retreat, but specific to the needs of treating infidelity. Yes it may not work but here's the thing... in MC WW was hearing, I literally think for the first time, that she needs to take ownership for the cheating, and that she is responsible for how she treats me no matter what. Because of that I believe, I have seen some effort on her part to address those. Not enough yet for sure, but the trend is in the right direction. So I do have some evidence that an intensive specifically geared toward treating infidelity will help.

I get it. I really do get it. I genuinely do hope that you get what you're looking for out of this retreat. I told my XWH I was done something like 3 months after DDay and he made a panic call to his therapist and convinced me to go with him to see her that afternoon. I went, she held his feet to the fire and validated me 100% and he seemed to get it for the first time. I thought "finally, the right words and the right sentences were strung together". Not six months later after I had left him, another therapist called me as he was entering rehab to ask if he had been diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder because he was apparently honest with her about thinking his sleeping with prostitutes was no big deal and that he had to play along some to help me come to terms with it. Maybe I've just seen how much someone who appears sane can have a brain that disagrees with your reality. I wouldn't have called my XWH personality disordered. I wouldn't have believed he actually really didn't have empathy for me all of that time. That one phone call slapped a lot of reality into me that even after leaving I didn't want to face. I got it then. I got how he had probably been rolling his eyes after some of his performative "getting it" conversations. I don't know that your wife is anything like his level of empathy-deprived. I'm glad substance abuse has no part in her issues (he was sober when he was "getting it"). What I'm saying is that you may hit a point of clarity on realizing how far your reality deviates from hers and to take her "getting it" moments with a grain of salt for quite a while. Try not to grasp too hard for hope unil the evidence truly does justify it. You are a good man. Seriously, it shines through your posts. You have such capacity for forgiveness and hope and empathy. Those are things that make you a stellar human being. These things are gifts, but they also can put you in danger of accepting less than what you deserve in a partner. Try to make sure you're looking out for your own best interests here. Be your own best friend.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 4:39 PM, Wednesday, February 16th]

HCSDI,

Did you two complete the AR boot camp yet? If memory serves me right, it is a one week program. That will give you some idea on her ability to dig in on her own.

We did not do EMS, but I have interacted with people who did. It sets up a framework that helps allow for the healing process to start. It can be good, but it can also be flushing $ down the toilet if your partner doesn't engage.

Hope you will drop in on the bh board over there. It is a great group.

Look

Thank you for the suggestion on a discussion board at AR, I'll have to check it out.

I'm hopeful that the EMS weekend will get her more engaged in recovery. We did their bootcamp very early on after D-Day and she was very reserved about it, and didn't really lean into it. She was especially resistant of the "Affair Analyzer" because she didn't have an affair; she had a meaningless fling. Calling it "Affair" was offensive, and still is.

At the time her main issue was that we're just dealing with infidelity, and to paraphrase her words, what about her? What about the unhappy marriage she had endured for 5 years?

Now she's more willing to treat the adultery specifically. I don't want to speak for her that she "gets it" because I still do all the heavy lifting, but I don't get all the flack I used to.

grubs
Thank you for encouraging and wise words. She may be the one to pull the plug, and I accept that. Either of us can leave the marriage at any time for any reason.

You misunderstood my comment. My comment was meant to mean that the lightbulb goes off in her head and she realizes the work she needs to do. Personally I think she's comfortable where she's at and has no intention of moving on unless forced. I actually side with Dee and Ellie in that I think you are expecting more of her than she is capable. So far she's shown more irritation on how you reacted than remorse over her affair. At this point it's down to you realizing that she's not willing to do the work and that you can't fix what she broke by yourself. It took me six months to get there but I only had 10 years invested.

HCSDI: I have followed your story for some time. Has your wife ever explicitly stated why she cheated? Has she included in her motivation a desire to hurt you at some level? I say that because she immediately confessed to the ONS. She seemed to have grudges against you and this was her way of hitting you between the eyes. I am not saying, necessarily, that it was the primary motivation. But has she stated that it played a part in her decision to cheat?

The word affair was offensive? That is probably the kindest term for it.

When I hear people reaching out for these "intensive weekends" … it just appears to me the betrayed is just taking a huge hit from the hopium pipe while kicking the limbo can a little further down the road.

[This message edited by ButAnyway at 9:31 PM, Thursday, February 17th]

I think the retreat is as much for you as for her. Among other things, you want to do as much as you can before pulling the plug. So go ahead. Maybe it will motivate her ...or maybe it won't ... it's only a weekend - so do it.

I think a therapist or clergy or retreat needs to address her perception of adultery and the pain and destruction is causes to trust.

As I recall, your wife committed adultery on the last evening of a 2 week vacation with your adult daughter.
Your wife & daughter met the AP at the pool each day (I guess after he returned from his construction job).

They flirted, texted and socialized each day/evening – which culminated in your wife deciding to commit adultery on their last evening together.

On their last evening, your wife dressed up (including wearing jewelry) and met him at the bar. After just two drinks they went to his room for sex. Your wife did not spend the night with him. Your wife confessed to your daughter that evening or the next morning; and to you a few days later. Your wife also deleted all texts so she is in complete control of how their relationship affair escalated to adultery.

Now your wife takes the position that her behavior does not really reflect ‘who’ she is (i.e., her core values/character) because: it was a single instance of sex, she immediately discontinued all contact with the man, and she confessed soon after.

Consequently, she falsely views her behavior as less morally deficient, destructive or painful to you as a long term affair.

IMO she can’t fix her lack of empathy until she stops splitting hairs between a fling and an affair.