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Newest Member: formerlywayward

Reconciliation :
3 years after dday

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 Toughlove1 (original poster new member #72832) posted at 6:13 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

We are 3 years post dday. A looot has happened this past year, we had another baby, had postpartum anxiety, I took a huge leap into starting my own firm. It was one of the most stressful years of my life. My husband was by my side supporting me till 2 months ago when something completely changed for him. He told me he lost his love for me, and we need to go to counseling for him to " forgive" me. Forgive what you ask, not sure. We haven't had much intimacy or kindness between us, the stress we were under work related, the new baby, the sleepless nights, just didn't have an ounce of energy in me to give beyond my survival. And he said he's had enough, "nothing to do with baby"... I see emptiness in his eyes, dissatachment, Ill be lying if it doesn't bring back serious triggering to the year he had the affair.
We worked so hard on the R, and the moment the baby was born I diverted my attention to surviving sleepless nights, endless feeding, zero time for myself or marriage. I don't know what to do. He completely checked out. We are like roommates raising three kids. He used to tell me he loves me every day, that im beautiful. In one day he completely stopped. I don't know what to do. Every time I ask to discuss it he says "no" only at the CC, when we decide to go. How can he shut himself off like that and expect to pick up where we left off when we go to CC. All these months are creating such a distance between us. Why is he doing this? Im so confused.

Wh 39
Mwa 38
1 year e/p affair mostly long distance.
Dday Jan 2019 by receiving a picture not meant for my eyes.
Attempting R since.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2020   ·   location: CA
id 8717169
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 Toughlove1 (original poster new member #72832) posted at 6:37 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

I must add that this started around the time a mutual lady friend started becoming closer to my WH, they would text a lot, she is mid-divorcing. I noticed she kind of fancied him.. I spoke to him about it. I don't think anything is going on, but maybe her fancying him has made him feel like he deserves better or whatever. Ugh, something doesn't sit right. There is no way I can find anything. He is a master techi.

Wh 39
Mwa 38
1 year e/p affair mostly long distance.
Dday Jan 2019 by receiving a picture not meant for my eyes.
Attempting R since.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2020   ·   location: CA
id 8717171
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Underserving ( member #72259) posted at 7:07 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

It doesn’t sit right with you because something isn’t right. Why on earth is he texting with this other woman in the first place?? Red flag. The sudden change in mood/behavior, correlating with his increased communication with her? Huge red flag.

Does he let you have access to his phone? Have you seen their conversations?

I would probably be getting my ducks in a row if I were you. Your gut is telling you something is up, listen to it.

ETA: HE needs to forgive YOU??? I threw up a little in my mouth. Just… ew. Sounds like someone very much in the wayward mindset to me. I’m so sorry.

[This message edited by Underserving at 7:12 PM, Friday, February 18th]

BW (32)Found out 3 years post end of AD-day 12-9-19In R

Infidelity brings out the cuss in me. I’m not as foul mouthed in real life. ;)

posts: 775   ·   registered: Dec. 9th, 2019
id 8717182
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Wiseoldfool ( member #78413) posted at 8:27 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

^ THAT. What she said. All of it.

Every secret you keep with your affair partner sustains the affair. Every lie you tell, every misunderstanding you permit, every deflection you pose, every omission you allow sustains the affair.

posts: 348   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2021
id 8717203
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TruthIsPower ( member #75776) posted at 9:32 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

TL1, sorry you found yourself in the limbo...

You wrote:

We worked so hard on the R

May I ask you, what did his 'HARD WORK" involve? Did he work on his character, accountability, coping skills, boundaries, etc? What was your work done for R? since you posted in the R forum...

"Stop giving people the reasons to love you. Not all will see the beauty of your soul. Those who know, those who know who you are, will love you with something fierce and never let you go. Those are the ones worth holding out for."

posts: 241   ·   registered: Oct. 30th, 2020   ·   location: US
id 8717223
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 Toughlove1 (original poster new member #72832) posted at 9:37 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

I don't know if he's affairing again. And there's no way in hell he will slip again to let me find out. He is a fortress. Even if I have access to his phone he is no dummy, its what he does for a living.
I flat out blank asked him. Don't know why. Like as if he'd tell the truth if he was.
For 3 years I had zero suspicion. And suddenly im wondering where he is all the time, did he really go to the gym, run, come back last night...? Im with baby at night and he's been sleeping in basement, have no clue about what he does.
Its crazy to think that he's affairing again, really makes zero sense. But then why am I having intuition about this. Ive always advised ppl here to follow it. But I just can't believe this is a possibility.
But if not that then why would someone check out like that? Wouldn't you fight for your marriage if things weren't great? Only someone who has nothing to loose checks out or doesn't give a shit.
Another weird thing happened, he bought me an extremely expensive diamond necklace valentine gift, something you buy on a birthday, I was totally weirded out by this. Because clearly our marriage is having serious issues, why such a over the top gesture. Like WTF is happening?!

Wh 39
Mwa 38
1 year e/p affair mostly long distance.
Dday Jan 2019 by receiving a picture not meant for my eyes.
Attempting R since.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2020   ·   location: CA
id 8717225
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crazyblindsided ( member #35215) posted at 9:44 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

He might be a tech guy but you can always plant a VAR (voice activated recorder) in his car. You may want to do this to catch him talking to her on the phone.

fBS/fWS(me):52 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:55 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(22) DS(19)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Separated 9/2019; Divorced 8/2024

posts: 9094   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8717229
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 9:44 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

Good questions. He sound wayward to me. First, there's NO WAY he should be texting with any women who aren't YOU or blood relatives. He's a former cheater. He's supposed to be showing you that he's got boundaries. Next, he sounds childish, like he can't understand that new babies and new businesses can't fend for themselves. A spouse is NOT an entertainment unit or a sycophant for a narcissistic ego.

It's up to you. I tend to get outraged about people who try to force me into playing silly ass games with them though. I'd be more likely to see an attorney than a counselor right now. He's stonewalling you when he says he won't talk without a counselor present. My attitude is "play stupid games; win stupid prizes". He would either tell me exactly what the hell is going on, or he'd be out on his ear. It's up to you though.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7098   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8717228
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 9:53 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

Another weird thing happened, he bought me an extremely expensive diamond necklace valentine gift, something you buy on a birthday, I was totally weirded out by this. Because clearly our marriage is having serious issues, why such a over the top gesture.

I don't think you can tell anything about that other than the fact that he's working an angle. What it is though is up for debate. Sometimes cheaters DO buy their spouses expensive gifts. Sometimes that's about guilt and sometimes it's about misdirection. When we look at childish attention-seeking behavior though, it's more about the statement.. "see how good I am to you but you don't reciprocate, hmph". You see how that works, right? It's a toss-up.. maybe cheating, maybe temper tantrum.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7098   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8717230
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 Toughlove1 (original poster new member #72832) posted at 10:27 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

Yes, it seems he is stonewalling me, and kind of abusive to withold affection or even an answer until we talk at CC.
His body language is aversion. Won't kiss me on the mouth when I wanted to thank him for something.
The thing is that to him the a is totally old news. We've talked about it sooo much, ive used the a card way to many times (even just to hurt him) Now if I mentioned the a it totally goes over his head. He used to feel a pinch in his heart. Nope. Not anymore. As if it never happened. He claims he amended his ways, and that he did the work and that's that. He did put in a lot of work. But I guess 3 years is his deadline. If I even raise the a, he rolls his eyes.
I cannot begin to imagine ending our marriage. Breaking our home, hurting our 3 little kids, him marrying another. Throwing away this life we've built...
What should I do. I can't go on like this.

Wh 39
Mwa 38
1 year e/p affair mostly long distance.
Dday Jan 2019 by receiving a picture not meant for my eyes.
Attempting R since.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2020   ·   location: CA
id 8717242
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brokendollparts ( member #62415) posted at 11:57 PM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

Big red flags! I’m so so sorry. He should give you unfettered access to his phone at any time. Is he showing signs of phone guarding or anything else like that? He sounds like he’s pissed over lack of sex maybe? That’s wayward thinking and definitely not indicative of remorse or contrition. I mean on one hand it’s good he wants counseling but it’s not ok for him to just shut you out totally until you can get in. Sending strength and love

Me 49BSHim 51WH Married 28YDDay #1 11/13/2017DDay #2 1/22/2018Attempting R since DDay #2

posts: 285   ·   registered: Jan. 24th, 2018
id 8717262
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Underserving ( member #72259) posted at 12:41 AM on Saturday, February 19th, 2022

Firstly, IF there is a time limit for talking about an affair (there isn’t) it sure as heck isn’t 3 years. He didn’t forget to take the trash out one night for Pete sake! He had a fucking affair. For a whole ass year.

All of us here are faced with the harsh reality of divorce being a very real possibility. It sucks. In truth, anyone who gets married can have the rug pulled out from them on any given day. Divorces are far too common and accessible. I know you didn’t ask for any of this. It’s not fair he is being this way to you. BUT you will be okay regardless.

I’m still thinking this other woman has something to do with his change of behavior. It’s far too coincidental he’s all of a sudden "unhappy" or "unsatisfied" in the marriage at the same time he has ramped up talking to her. I’m guessing you don’t feel like you can tell him to stop all contact with her because it makes you uncomfortable? Because right now, HE’S the one with the power. He has made it that way on purpose. He has gaslit and blame shifted so much YOU are afraid to lose HIM. Do you see how fucked up that is? You stayed with him after he betrayed and traumatized you,, but he has the audacity to act like he is some prize who is not being treated the way he should be. Absolute horse shit wayward thinking at its finest.

I would order a VAR yesterday. I’d demand to see his phone and if he refused, I would go hard 180 and seek out an attorney. Even if there’s nothing going on with this woman (there probably is) how he is treating you is NOT ok.

BW (32)Found out 3 years post end of AD-day 12-9-19In R

Infidelity brings out the cuss in me. I’m not as foul mouthed in real life. ;)

posts: 775   ·   registered: Dec. 9th, 2019
id 8717290
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 1:06 AM on Saturday, February 19th, 2022

Sometimes the best strategy is to take what you are told at face value.
He’s told you a couple of things: I don’t love you and you did something that is so bad and serious that I don’t know if I can forgive you.
Then he sort-of places it in your hands to make him love you and to change so he can forgive you.

Why not try this. Tell him something along the lines of:
You don’t have to love me and I can’t make you love me, but I don’t want to be in a loveless marriage.
You don’t have to forgive me, even though I don’t really know what I did wrong. I can understand that forgiveness is hard because that’s what I have been working on towards you since d-day.
I think the two factors: you not loving me and not being able to forgive me are big enough for us to accept our marriage is over. I’m going to talk to an attorney on the next steps. There is no rush, no worry about being unfair. There are laws and processes that ensure this is a fair deal and I am willing to be as amicable as possible while we hash this out.
Want more meatloaf?

Basically – remove his threats and remove the drama. Give him what he wants, because I think the odds are 80/20 he will wake up to reality once he realizes his threats to hold his breath until he dies – like a kid trying to escape Broccoli – aren’t working.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 13291   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8717303
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 2:13 AM on Saturday, February 19th, 2022

I cannot begin to imagine ending our marriage. Breaking our home, hurting our 3 little kids, him marrying another. Throwing away this life we've built...
What should I do. I can't go on like this.

Why are you thinking in terms of HIM "marrying another"? Maybe it would be YOU that would be marrying another.

I'm going to be super candid right now. If you are more invested in that marriage than he is, he owns you. You might as well do as you're told and hope he treats you decently. There's apparently some kind of power struggle going on here and he thinks it's okay to keep you in the dark about that.

Me? I'm a vindictive bitch when people fuck with my emotions. If my fWH decides he wants to play, he better be sure he's willing to fucking lose because I will drop the house on his ass. I am an ADULT. I comport myself as an ADULT. I do not play childish games with people and if they want to play childish games with me?.. they're going to be disappointed. And alone. And fucking broke. THAT is what I learned from surviving infidelity.

You're really invested with small kids and a new business, but this guy cheated on you three years ago and he's doing your head in now. Whether you believe it or not, you deserve better than that. If it was me, I'd see an attorney and think about whether or not I was willing to put up with any more crap off this guy.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7098   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8717318
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 Toughlove1 (original poster new member #72832) posted at 7:09 AM on Saturday, February 19th, 2022

So I confronted him about this stonewalling situation. He said he feels broken inside, that our marriage hasn't changed for the better since the affair and MC, and we're just the same old marriage where he feels like im not giving him the basics, such as affirmation, adoration, admiration, and ofcourse the lustful sex he wants to have. He said he is afraid of my rejection, and that his whole life he'll be feeling that " in a few months things will be better".
I once told him that he reminds me of that song from Hamilton " ill never be satisfied" funny, because Hamilton also cheated on his wife.
Im trying to see his side for a minute, yes, Im not great with expressions of love or intimacy with him doesn't cause my heart to leap out of excitement.. And I guess if he didn't express his love to me I wouldn't be cool with it either.
The question is what is reasonable? Can you quantify this?
He basically is saying he is unhappy in our marriage because he feels there's an emotional gap that's leading to the physical effection gap. Its true, there is a gap. I guess I've been ok with it because there are other aspects that work for me.
He doesn't want divorce, he wants to go MC to bridge the gaps. But honestly, I can't see myself matching his appetite for sex. He thinks back at the hysterical bonding we had, and is confused where that went to. If pain can trigger that then Maybe something else can bring back the lustful sex.

Wh 39
Mwa 38
1 year e/p affair mostly long distance.
Dday Jan 2019 by receiving a picture not meant for my eyes.
Attempting R since.

posts: 50   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2020   ·   location: CA
id 8717331
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 8:19 AM on Saturday, February 19th, 2022

I don't know how he expected that committing adultery would improve your marriage, but yeah... I think I'd go ahead and turn this thing around on him by booking MC. Here's the deal though... YOU interview and select the therapist. It sounds to me like your WH needs to GROW UP. You are not his personal groupie or cheerleader. He's a grown man and he should be long past the need for praise and flattery. And as far as sex goes, he should be capable of negotiating a reasonable sex life using his big-boy words. rolleyes
You've got children to take care of, including another infant, as well as a new business to run. And I'm not saying you shouldn't be making an effort in the marriage, but it's not going to be the "WH Show" 24/7. You're only three years into R. The wounds don't typically heal that quickly. At this point, you're most likely still having trouble maintaining an emotional connection. His stupidity here, moving out of your bedroom and sulking like an infant, has undermined what recovery you've made. (Ugh.. if you can't tell it, I'm just incensed on your behalf! mad )

Anyway, that is what I would do. I'd haul his ass into the MC of MY personal choice... where we would talk about what are reasonable expectations for an ADULT to have and how he might make better use of the chance for R that you have given him as a GIFT. No one is owed a second chance. He got one, and now he has practically thrown in back in your face.

I'm going to reprint a post I made for someone else about the "unmet needs" fallacy and avoiding those kind of therapists. Don't be afraid to thoroughly interview. You might even go to the first meeting on your own just to make sure.


My own WH went on a Craigslist binge six years ago, multiple partners, various degrees of emotional attachment. He even thought he was in love at one point. But ten years before that, I'd caught him out in some online shenanigans, porn, cybersexing, emotional affair, etc. In fact, I caught him out only two weeks before a planned meet-up. I'd already seen an attorney before I confronted him and I was bent on divorce, but he pretty much cried his way out of it and I settled on MC. As you might have guessed already, we too were bamboozled with the "unmet needs" model of therapy, which sounds so reasonable. I upped my wife game, and did my best pick-me polka, but within a couple of years, he was right back at it behind my back. By the time we reached the ten year mark, he had screwed up his nerve to go live and in person on Craigslist.

Of course, I was pretty shocked as you might imagine. I thought we were good. I thought his "needs" were met. Damned if I hadn't been turning myself inside out for a decade to make sure, right? The more I thought about it, the more I revisited what I knew about the "unmet needs model", the less it made sense. I was doing everything right and he still CHOSE to cheat.

Here's the fly in the "unmet needs" ointment...

Healthy ADULTS don't need to be validated. They validate internally. Healthy adults are self-fruitful in the matter of contentment and life satisfaction, and when things come up which make them unhappy, they address the cause and solve the problem. OTOH, the vast majority of cheaters cheat because they're seeking external validation. They are NOT emotionally healthy. They can't do it on their own. They've got a hole inside them and no amount of external validation will fill it. Certainly, the old and familiar validation of a spouse doesn't get the job done. Our "kibbles" are stale and boring. They don't create enough adrenaline anymore to make the cheater feel special. It's like getting an "atta boy" from your mom, right?

This is old pop-psy which is still being taught in schools and still selling books. But it's bullshit. NOTHING you can do (or fail to do) can MAKE another person throw away their core values and do something that's in this kind of opposition to good character. If you're a person who BELIEVES in fidelity, who VALUES fidelity, you don't cheat. End of story. Because when we truly value something we protect it. The cheater has a "but..." in his values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, but... not if my needs aren't being met." For people like you and me, we have a "so..." in our values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, so... I don't put myself in risky situations with the opposite sex." This is the BOUNDARY we create organically. We don't sit around planning it out. It just happens, because it's innate to our character to protect what we value. The cheater doesn't have those boundaries because he doesn't really honor his values. He only claims to.

I'm not saying that your marriage is over or that your WH can't change. What I am saying though is that this "unmet needs" model is NOT going to challenge him to clean up his flawed character. In fact, it allows him to offload responsibility onto the marriage and onto YOU. It's not your job to MAKE him feel (fill-in-the-blank-here). It never was. It's his job to control his feelings. You could have been doing everything exactly perfect for the entire length of your marriage, and he would still have cheated... because there's NOTHING in his character stopping him and he has no coping mechanism to fall back on when he feels unvalidated, inadequate, unappreciated, etc.

It's HIS job to see that his "needs" get met. Sometimes that might mean negotiating with you, say if it's about sex or about the division of labor in your home, etc. But sometimes, it might mean that what he sees as a "need" is unhealthy in an adult, like external validation through attention and flattery.

MC's are there to treat the marriage. The marriage is the client. So, of course they're going to talk about communications, resentments and expectations. The MC doesn't want to alienate anyone, so s/he's looking to find balance on both sides. But marriages don't cheat. People do. The only way your WH is going to make a change that safeguards against further perfidy is by correcting his need for external validation and becoming an emotionally healthy adult whose deeds are as good as his word. No excuses, just honoring the things he claims to value. For that, I would recommend IC (individual counseling) with a therapist who is well-versed in adultery.

The last thing any newly-minted BS needs is to walk into an MC's office, believing that they've come to safe harbor, and being handed a copy of The Five Love Languages or some other "unmet needs" gobbledygook. It would be really nice if we actually did have the power to control our mate by giving them "acts of service" or "words of affirmation", but sadly, we aren't gods who can stop a cheater from seeking out his/her choice of adrenaline rush and new kibbles. Although, this kind of pop-psy suggests that their behavior is somehow our responsibility. The more you dig into this ridiculous line of thought, the more absurd it becomes.

Anyway... sorry for the lengthy post. Nothing fries my ass more than seeing new BS's being sold this bill of goods.

R is still going fairly well.. 7 years now. I consider myself healed.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7098   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8717333
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 8:27 AM on Saturday, February 19th, 2022

I'd also go back to monitoring him for awhile, maybe stick that VAR in his car. His actions are more extreme than his complaints, telling you he's "lost his love for you", moving out of your bedroom, stonewalling you on his reasons. Maybe there's nothing there, but man, it sounds like a wayward mindset to me.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7098   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8717336
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Dude67 ( member #75700) posted at 3:49 PM on Saturday, February 19th, 2022

I’ll leave the A, your R, and the potential for another A right now aside for a moment.

This may be more simple than you think. He wants to have sex with his wife and wants his wife to want to have sex with him. You would know best, but it sounds like this is his love language.

You said that showing affection to your husband physically is not something you typically do. Add onto this the fact that your attention is, rightly so, directed at your baby, the other kids, sleep deprivation, etc., and it of course exacerbates the pre existing situation.

This exact situation is also extremely common in all marriages. To me what’s different is that your WW husband is openly communicating his needs, and wants to address it in MC. Isn’t this a good thing?

posts: 785   ·   registered: Oct. 21st, 2020
id 8717362
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 7:07 PM on Saturday, February 19th, 2022

"If you're gonna get hanged for stealing a horse, you may as well steal a horse."

Not sure if your WH believes this. I'm not blaming your actions here, but between the DARVO, withdrawal, and selfish impatience I wouldn't be surprised if your WH is out stealing horses.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 7:08 PM, Saturday, February 19th]

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2997   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8717397
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 7:38 PM on Saturday, February 19th, 2022

To me what’s different is that your WW husband is openly communicating his needs, and wants to address it in MC.

That's just the thing though, isn't it? He did NOT "openly communicate" his so-called "needs". Instead, he tells her he doesn't love her anymore, that he wants to go to counseling so he can see if he can "forgive" her, moves into the basement and refused further comment until she can be hauled in front of an MC. rolleyes No doubt his thinking was that an MC would feel sorry for him. Fat chance.

These are not the methods one would expect from a remorseful WS three years into R. At 3 years, his methods are still self-serving and without empathy. At 3 years, the OP is still healing and may not be emotionally ready for the kind of connection he expects. Even if we don't consider the cheating history, there is NOTHING about a childish man pouting for sex that is attractive to women. He might as well shower her with a freezing blast from a fire hose because what he's done at that point is made what should have been an expression of love and commitment all about HIM and his entertainment.

This guy hasn't done the work. The OP is clearly not wrong to feel like she needs enough distance to protect herself. His behavior is outlandish.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7098   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8717403
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