SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

At the risk of bringing on the bi-monthly Esther Perel hate session (seriously, not interested - I can find the podcast interesting without agreeing with everything she says).....

Did anyone else listen to this recent episode of Where Do We Begin? It's about a couple whose relationship started as an affair. They had dated in high school and lost touch, 20 years later both were married (with children) to other people and reconnected on facebook, left their respective spouses, and had recently started living together and were adjusting to the reality of their new lives together. He had left his wife and his kids and moved across the country to live with her and her children and one of their issues was parenting differences and his difficulty maintaining a relationship with his children in the circumstances (one of those circumstances being his angry ex-wife). I imagine the episode might be pretty triggery for anyone whose spouse has left to be with the AP, but I did think it was an interesting listen if for no other reason that it sheds light on the fact that when APs get together, it's not all sunshine and rainbows forever - they enter their new relationship after throwing an actual bomb in their lives and the fallout is experienced (by everyone!) during their honeymoon period.

EP actually pushed back on them a bit when they got to the narrative of their A - she corrected them that their first boundary cross was not when they got a hotel room, but when they first gave themselves permission to cross a line. In discussing their A, they both unsurprisingly spouted the "I was unhappy and deserved to be happy" narrative that we are all so used to hearing - the guy actually noted that his wife wasn't happy either (so it was almost like he was doing everyone a favour ) and she pointed out that there was clearly a strong element of cognitive dissonance that was going on (no one likes to think of themselves as a bad person, so the story they tell themselves is the one that paints themselves in the best possible light).

She also (subtly) tells the guy to cool his jets when he expresses concerned that his kids aren't getting on board with "moving on" as quickly as he'd like and noted that their decision to divorce their spouses had wide-ranging impacts on more than just themselves (I think her words were that there is an entire community of people who have a stake in the plot). This part really hit home for me because it's something my own father has spouted quite a bit over the years when he wonders why the relationship between him and my siblings is strained (my dad left my mom unexpectedly when I was in University to be with his AP - they are still together - albeit unhappily). He seems to think we should just get over it (even though it has hardly ever been discussed) simply because time has passed (in fairness, its been 20 years). I don't really know what he expects - we have always been polite/civil with his AP and if anything, she has been the one to act immaturely at times (for example, she left my wedding because she felt awkward being around my mom's sister, who obviously doesn't think much of either of them. She also insisted that my dad miss brunch with me the next day because SHE felt uncomfortable).

Ugh.. he also mentions that his kids don't talk to him much (hmmm....wonder why??) and he has to hear about how they are doing from his ex-wife who "puts it in the most negative light" - like she's saying it to hurt him versus just naming the obvious fallout to having your dad pick up and abandon your family. Hearing him talk about this so dismissively is just soooo wayward.
He also mentions a conversation he had with his father about his choices, and his father mentioning that anything that happened with his kids after this, he would be blamed for and EP notes, "oh like, anytime they go to a therapist for the rest of their life they will mention how their dad cheated on their mom...." and you can tell that never even occurred to him. He was more like, oh no, their mom will blame me for anything that happens with them - whether its my fault or not.

Obviously not a groundbreaking statement... but waywards sure are selfish, aren't they?

I can't bear EP but at least she pushed back slightly.

They are not only selfish but also magical thinkers. They blithely assume they can move out on their kids, across the country no less, traumatize and abandon the children's mother, and leave them to a year's long recovery process, but still have a happy wonderful relationship with said kids. It's nothing short of delusional, but affairs are about fantasy - the idea that swapping partners fixes what ails you, cures boredom, inoculates you from marital stresses, etc. When all it does is restart with someone new, with the added burden of divorce and sad, angry children.

Some of the thinking around the kids stems from the old pop psychology rejoinder, "Kids are resilient." It's the answer to every fear around doing something to disrupt our children's life, from moving to divorce. The kids will be adapt. Nope, not so much. Kids suffer disruptions to their routine, family make-up, living situation, parent's mental health, etc. Leaving for an AP ticks all the boxes of shit that screws kids up. Some people never recover from being left for an AP - so the kids are now reared by a primary parent with long-term depression, anxiety and often financial struggles due to divorce. Yeah, wonder why your kids hate you, dude.

The whole idea of having an affair to feel validated or more passionate about life is wonky, but it's a go-to for so many folks. I suppose hopping into bed with someone new is easier than introspection, switching careers or other lifestyle changes. I've known numerous male colleagues over the years who left their wives for affair partners, only to eventually cheat on their affair partner and get divorced again or stay miserably married. They never learn. They just get too old to find willing participants.

I love that podcast. Especially the ones on infidelity although I can get something out of any of them. I feel a little ick to admit that voyeurism is part of the draw.

Still, listening to how couples deal, how they communicate and yes, even EPs advice has taught me a few things.

I'm not an EP hater. I don't agree with everything she says but she has given me many insights into marriage and relationships.

I have mixed feelings on EP. Had I listened to her or her teachings years ago I would be divorced because she certainly made it easy to get to self compassion with no work involved and I think that is dangerous.

However, now and again I will take something in from her and it has helped me piece things together enough that I could understand why the compassion piece is important.

While reading your post the only thing I kept thinking was THANK GOD I didn’t end up with the AP. People were hurt enough without having the relationship shoved down their throats for howeve many years that would have lasted.

People always affair down because they are at their worst while having an affair. Laws of attraction tells you they are also going to draw the worst. While I believe everyone is redeemable of they work towards it, I can’t imagine how many more years I would have been lost in my own selfish abyss.

So I think EP has a good understanding of how affairs happen and what they are like. I just think she fails to understand that we do not move on to immediate self compassion and change. I think you have to earn it back in order to have a lasting perspective. Trying to address it in the relationship while the bs is reeling is absolutely detrimental. So I think she is good for some things and terrible with others.

That being said, was also not trying to engage in a debate about her either. Just reflecting on your post and exploring it.

Wayward sure are in denial (in some cases).

This part really hit home for me because it's something my own father has spouted quite a bit over the years when he wonders why the relationship between him and my siblings is strained (my dad left my mom unexpectedly when I was in University to be with his AP - they are still together - albeit unhappily). He seems to think we should just get over it (even though it has hardly ever been discussed) simply because time has passed (in fairness, its been 20 years).

What's so interesting about this is that the unremorseful WS typically seems to think that it's about what he did rather than who he was when he did it, and if he's still with the AP, who he still is.

Self-centered · selfish · egomaniacal · self-interested · self-seeking · self-regarding · self-absorbed · self-obsessed · self-loving · narcissistic · vain · conceited · proud · self-important · boastful · bragging

Yup, my husband during the affair, much less during our separation. And not at all during our recovery.

"Kids are resilient." It's the answer to every fear around doing something to disrupt our children's life, from moving to divorce. The kids will be adapt. Nope, not so much.

Totally. I feel like this was a common refrain amongst parents of a certain generation and all us millennials are here spending our adulthood in therapy being like, "um.... about that..."

TheEnd - I agree. I enjoy the voyeurism aspect of the podcast too. Typically, the stuff on affairs is often not necessarily the stuff that resonates with me either. You realize the actual interpersonal dynamics between the two people she's talking too can matter more than the content of what they are going through.

Hiking - I appreciate your comments. I certainly wasn't suggesting she is faultless, or discouraging all commentary on her methods I was just anticipating the chorus of voices that seem to compete to hate her the most. I agree that self-compassion is a necessary step for Waywards but it is certainly no where near the top of the list in the immediate D-Day aftermath.

"Kids are resilient."

It's such a load of BS (not blind spouse). There also isn't any good age to get a D, but D is often necessary and was in my situation. My kids are still dealing with the fallout of our M. They have not had an easy time at all and neither have I.

What's so interesting about this is that the unremorseful WS typically seems to think that it's about what he did rather than who he was when he did it, and if he's still with the AP, who he still is.

Bingo. By staying with his AP, no one held his feet to the fire and he never really learned how to learn from his mistakes.

I know he's not really happy - which of course makes me sad, but its also not at all surprising because he's still the same person he was back then and all the issues that existed in his previous relationship have (surprise!) found their way into his current relationship and its likely a tough pill to swallow when you realize many years later that you're the problem.

Strangely, he approached my husband after a couple of glasses of wine a few years back while we were in town visiting and commented that he wishes he had stuck it out with my mom versus "letting himself get swept away in what was new and exciting". It was post my husband's A but my Dad didn't know about it (my husband actually felt like my dad was trying to warn him not to make his same mistakes ). My husband was like, you should really say this to Emergent - I feel like she would be interested to hear this. Unsurprisingly, he never said anything to me though.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 10:21 PM, Thursday, June 9th]

Ester Price is a working therapist who concentrates on shifting her patients to a better place. Not neccessarily the best place. She can't wind back the clock. She can't get them to somewhere they refuse to go. With this couple, she clearly knew that the couple did what they did for selfish reasons. She pushed back heavily on the "deserved to be happy" rationale. They kept answering that they were unhappy and listed the reasons why they were unhappy and that wasn't what she was asking.

What was it inside of you that allowed yourself to feel that your unhappiness could become the drive for your next decision... That being happy was an acceptable goal for which you were going to take apart and dismantle an entire life and effecting your familys' happiness. Putting the self ahead of those relationships and I'm not sure we got to the end of that.

You don't put your needs in front of everyone else. That they had a bit of Cognotive dissonance and warped rationale to true the wrong with what they desired to do.

I think one of the unsaid but implied thing she said was that they choose thier first spouses due to the influence of their parents. For him the affair was desire over duty where the duty was the focus of his father. His ex is his father and he took his belligerence at his father against his ex. For her, she described her mother as someone that shouldn't have had children but had them because that was what she was supposed to do. Right after saying that she herself settled on her ex, married, and had children because that was what she was supposed to do...

Another statement from Ester,

The crossing of the line wasn't the hotel room, but when you gave yourself permission to think beyond of where you allowed yourself to go

. Along the lines that coveting is a sin.

Love story is between two people. A marriage engages an entire community. The making of a marriage effects a whole group of people. A marriage's disolution effects and entire group of people.

That was her closing comment.

The magical thinking is strong in both of them. Interracial, interfaith, cross country from his kids, dramatically child rearing cultures, and differing openess of communication, but it will all be rainbows and unicorns because tru love. I think the other unsaid thing was WTH were you thinking diving into this without working through all the complications. The dad did a lot of laughing which is what he did when he was uncomfortable. There's a lot of work to be done for this marriage even with the Tru Luv.

[This message edited by grubs at 10:49 PM, Thursday, June 9th]

You realize the actual interpersonal dynamics between the two people she's talking too can matter more than the content of what they are going through.

Yes! My mind was kind of blown at how many issues are COMMON. We humans think we are so special and ours is a unique situation but the truth is, we all struggle and in many ways, we struggle in the same ways. Infidelity is one (horrible, devastating) way to deal with our dysfunction, but there are others and surprisingly (to me), it's all so common.

An example: in one of her podcasts she was dealing with a lesbian couple. A big issue in their marriage was a lack of sex. One partner wanted more and the other had checked out. How often do we hear about this? If it's happening to a significant number of married folks then is it a character flaw? A sexual dysfunction? Or is it something that happens for very common reasons that can effect any marriage. In this couple's case, the low libido spouse was the primary parent / care giver. That extended to her spouse meaning she "took care" of the spouse as well. EP said something like "nothing kills sex drive faster than being in mommy mode."

A lightbulb went off for me. My marriage had an extreme case of manchild wanting mommy to take care of him. Not one thing about that was a turn on. And honestly, once I realized that I was a) relieved there wasn't something wrong with me and b) actually felt a little better about the affair (weird I know). Let her baby him! I know what sex is like with a man child. Nothing to see here. It didn't relieve my pain completely obviously but I didn't feel as less than, in fact, I felt more curious and interested in my own sexuality than ever before.

Grubs - Yes! Thank you! As usual my paraphrasing was inartful. You managed to get all the snippets to which I was referring. I certainly agree with your 'what the hell are they thinking' take.

I certainly agree with your 'what the hell are they thinking' take.

It was clear listening that he traded one authoritive wife for another and losing his kids in the process. The wifes might differ in style, the new one much more free and open, but they both drive their families dynamics and he just quietly goes along. EP kind of poked at that a little. Trying to highlight the danger of him ending up in the same place down the road with new wife.

It was clear listening that he traded one authoritive wife for another and losing his kids in the process. The wifes might differ in style, the new one much more free and open, but they both drive their families dynamics and he just quietly goes along.

I think you're right. It kind of blew my mind little when she summed up his ex-wife's version of the story for him (you broke up the family, abandoned me, sinned a bunch, and damaged your kids") and he was like, "wow, I never heard it all laid out like that before." I guess that when you just leave, you don't have to hear the BS's narrative. MY husband, on the other hand.....

[This message edited by emergent8 at 12:09 AM, Friday, June 10th]

Regarding the "kids are resilient"…."um, about that…" thing:

Then why is it said so often that children are better off FROM a broken home than IN one; that happy parents apart is better than unhappy parents together, etc.?

To be clear, I am NOT referring to running off with an AP. I’m talking about us plain old miserable asses who stick it out for our kids so as to NOT cause the trauma the alternative so clearly causes, but who are receiving such mixed messages about what the hell the "right thing" to do is.

Then why is it said so often that children are better off FROM a broken home than IN one; that happy parents apart is better than unhappy parents together, etc.?

The read I get is they married and created the marriages that their upbringing had them believing was what they needed. After a decade or two they decided that wasn't what they really wanted. How much of that was reality or reframing for the affair I don't know. Even if that was truly their reality if they hadn't reconnected with TruLuv, if they had put the amount of effort into their first marriages morphing those marriages into something more satisfying, I don't think they would have been as unhappy as they are now. At least in his case. The wife was able to keep the best of her marriage so she's not missing out as much but that was really a crap shoot. She got lucky in have a more understanding Ex and kids and is living near where she was. He not only created two homes but put the entire country between him and his kids dooming him to being a part time father.

Someone should send that to my xWH lol. Although now that he's getting divorced from the AP I guess the bloom has come off the rose.

My son is lucky that he has caring male role models in his life (he's called my H "Dad" for five or six years at least), and while my BF isn't in a parental role he's more like an uncle to him. But my xWH just took off, moved to another country, and that was basically that. My son has had so many mental health problems since then because he is full of rage as well as hurt and self doubt.

But hey, my xWH had to be happy, right? I wonder if he is now, as a two time loser at 40.

While I wouldn't want to go through that pain again, sometimes I think it was there to clear the way for me to have the love life that I do now.

That horrible "I divorced your mother but not you" does not play to kids. He abandoned them and moved far away. That should have been front and center on this podcast. That is the reason I don’t like EP. She is too soft on this very damaging "get my happy" at any cost. Too damn bad if the kids get hurt.

This is such a great post. I was not familiar with Esther Perel until I read this post and started doing a bit of research. Like many of you, I am not her biggest fan, but she does make some good points.

What's so interesting about this is that the unremorseful WS typically seems to think that it's about what he did rather than who he was when he did it, and if he's still with the AP, who he still is.

ChamomileTea, you made such a great point here! My XWH is the perfect example of this. He did SO much. Spent years playing with not only my emotions, but our kids'. If he wanted to be with the AP, he should have stopped the mind games and emotional abuse and just left me the hell alone. But he didn't. Now, he continues to be with the OW and thinks "Well, everything is now out in the open, so it will all be ok". I think he is starting to realize what he envisioned as his "happily ever after" is far from the reality. No one in his family is accepting of what he did and the OW. It has been almost 2 years since he last left and his parents barely speak to him. He cut himself off from basically every relationship with our family members and close friends. Seems like he doesn't want to be around anyone that will not allow him to minimize what he did and will hold him accountable. Like many, he is taking the cowardly way out. But with that, comes consequences. They eventually catch up to everyone and he just always felt he was an exception. What many WS that leave for the AP don't realize is that the A is enough to cause irreparable damage. To then add the fact that you want to continue to put yourself and your "happiness" in front of others, even your own children, is just extremely destructive. You cause hurt like no other and your family is left to pick up the pieces while you are out living your best life not really caring about any of it. He seems to think he can now change the narrative of the current “relationship” he is in, but when your relationship begins as an A, you have to accept that many people will never want any part of it. In his case…his own parents and family want absolutely nothing to do with the OW nor do they ever even want to meet her. They set their boundaries and he thinks they are not “being supportive.” What he fails to understand like many WS is that every person in their lives feel betrayed in one way or another and there will come a point that they will start prioritizing their own peace and happiness. Not having any part of his A or OW is part of what we all need to heal and move on from this entire situation he created. We all stood by his side while he continued to shit on everyone, lie to everyone and not prioritize his own children. We are all at a place where we just want to feel at peace and leave this all behind. That includes not having constant triggers by having their
selfish wants and relationship shoved in our faces. He made his bed, he and the other OW can now lay in it together.

He has not gone to therapy, even though it has been suggested several times, even by our daughter's therapist. Claims he wants a relationship with our 14 year old daughter, but refuses to understand that his choice to still continue to be with the AP is the biggest problem with our daughter not wanting a relationship with him. Yes, he did a lot to compromise their relationship, but she said she does not feel "safe" with him as a dad if he continues to be with the OW. It basically shows her that he has no remorse for what he has done to us and could care less about the damage. He continues to say things to her like "This is between your mom and I and our relationship is separate from this". "You are feeling this way because of your mom and what happened between us". "I get it, you are a bi-product of your environment". Goes on and on. He is now all the sudden, upset she does not want a relationship with him, but has done NOTHING to change. (Except for texting her once

a week telling her he wants her to go out with him.) She says no, he gets upset.....and the cycle continues. He blames everything he did on everyone....it is my fault she feels this way. It is his parents fault he played all the mind games he did with me. The BS just keeps going. But when he is trying to communicate with our daughter and she gives him answers he doesn't like....who does he turn to for "guidance"....ME.

Basically, who he was during the A is who he continues to be. How he thinks he can continue to put his mistress before our child is beyond me and hurts me as a mom. His relationship with our child, that he destroyed, has never been his priority to fix. His mistress was his priority then and continues to be now. My heart breaks for my kid.

[This message edited by Mari104 at 10:46 PM, Tuesday, June 14th]