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Fantasy Deprived the BH, Delivered to the AP

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Rideitout posted 7/7/2020 08:03 AM

RIO got what he wanted. He admits he doesn't know if it's authentic. He doesn't seem to care much whether or not it is. He just wants the sex. That reduces his wife to a sexual vending machine, imo. That's not to say he doesn't value his W in other ways. But, when it comes to sex, she's basically just a blow up doll for him to do with whatever he pleases.

I literally do not know if ANY sex I've had with anyone in the past was "authentic". I thought they wanted to have sex with me, but, turns out, a lot of people have sex for "kibbles" not because they are actually horny/excited/sexually attracted to the other person. I agree with your general thesis here, and no, I do know if it's "authentic" or not, but I disagree with one point very much. I DO care very much if it's authentic. If I could know, right this minute if it was, that would end this issue for me. If I knew, right this minute, that it was not, I'd call my W and ask for a D. The problem isn't that I don't care, I do VERY MUCH care, the problem is that I have absolutely no way to know one way or the other, and, further, I've proven to myself that I am a bad judge of it. I thought all the women I slept with before my W all really wanted to sleep with me. There's like 0% chance that's true. And that entire thing, entire line of thought, has impacted me and my enjoyment of sex dramatically, not just with my W, but in general.

I think the only way to possibly feel like it is something that your CP really wants to do with you is if they do it spontaneously. Even then, you can't know. Maybe it's not you at all. Maybe they just discovered they really liked it during the course of the A and want to continue doing it. You are available, so they do it with you.

Look, let me say, this is an AWFUL situation for anyone to be in, and one that NONE of should be in to begin with. But, if you, like me, find yourself in this situation, there's only a few possible resolutions. You can D. You can pretend it doesn't bother you/stuff it and hope for the best. You can make it hard requirement for R. Or, your BS can offer it to you spontaneously. My hope with these threads is that some WS somewhere reads this and realizes that of those options (assuming the BS doesn't want to D) the "spontaneously" option is dramatically better, at least for me, than any of the other alternatives. That's it, that's the crux of my thesis; if you did something, sexual or otherwise with the AP, male or female, and you think your spouse would enjoy it, offer it to them. And if you can offer a "better" version of it, offer that too.

EllieKMAS posted 7/7/2020 08:21 AM

That's it, that's the crux of my thesis; if you did something, sexual or otherwise with the AP, male or female, and you think your spouse would enjoy it, offer it to them. And if you can offer a "better" version of it, offer that too.
Well RIO, just say it like this. This is honest and forthright without being abrasive about it. And I actually agree with you (gasp - clutching pearls)! I agree that a WS should do this.

I do think that BS's might vary in their reception though - example: my shitbag x did a lot of things for his little 18yo skank that he never did for me - love notes, sending her poems and songs, 'little' romantic gestures. After dday when we were trying to R, I could have asked for those things. But I didn't want them at that point. Because the ONLY reason he would have been doing them for me is to keep a roof over his head.

Just floating a theory out here, but do you think maybe part of the reason why this is such a sticking point for you is because part of you 'knows' that she is only doing things to keep the status quo and not because she wants to? (Please note - I'm not saying that IS what's happening, just is a possibility). If that is something you feel, then the follow up is - what are you going to do about it?

I thought all the women I slept with before my W all really wanted to sleep with me. There's like 0% chance that's true. And that entire thing, entire line of thought, has impacted me and my enjoyment of sex dramatically, not just with my W, but in general.
On this... Maybe they did truly want to. Maybe they didn't. But if they didn't want to and they did anyways and you didn't use physical force? Then that is their shit to deal with, not yours. Don't overthink things too much here RIO. I, for one, expect a certain amount of cajoling from men when it comes to sex. It's just part of the dance. So long as you were in that camp (which most men are IME) then don't get your knickers in a twist about it.

cheatstroke posted 7/7/2020 08:58 AM

how many conversations in the privacy of homes between a BS and WS go straight to demands and coercion

In the following scenario, is the BH being reasonable, or is he going straight to demands and coercion?

BH: I've been thinking about the sex you had with him - the automatic blowjob to start every encounter, begging him to let you give him a blowjob, waking him up with a blowjob, anal sex whenever he wanted it, offering to get a girlfriend to have a threesome with him - and I've got to ask you, why did you do those things?

WW: Because I wanted to.

BH: Why won't you do those things for me?

WW: Because I don't want to.

BH: So you're ok doing those things for him but you're not ok doing those things for me?

WW: Yes.

BH: I'll be contacting a lawyer tomorrow. Are you ok with that?

WW: No.

BH: So you're NOT ok with me contacting a lawyer, but you ARE ok with the reason that I will be contacting a lawyer?

WW: Yes.

Rideitout posted 7/7/2020 09:01 AM

Just floating a theory out here, but do you think maybe part of the reason why this is such a sticking point for you is because part of you 'knows' that she is only doing things to keep the status quo and not because she wants to? (Please note - I'm not saying that IS what's happening, just is a possibility). If that is something you feel, then the follow up is - what are you going to do about it?

Yes, that's exactly why it's an issue for me. And why I stress so much "just do it" to other WS's, because it has to be better if you don't have to ask for it. How much better? I don't know. But better I think is a very safe bet.

What can I do about it? I watch her actions, I look for consistency, I try to read her reactions. Beyond that, I'm at a loss. I'm a proven failure here, I know I suck at determining if a woman is having sex with me because she wants to, for kibbles, is horny/excited, or any other reasons. I just have no way to tell, my wife and I were still having sex during her A, I had no idea she didn't want to and was only doing it to "keep the peace at home" so she could save the good stuff for the OM. No earthy clue.

Maybe I can get better at it? I'm really not sure how. For the past few years, my wife has been, well, best way to put it is DTF. Years is a long time to keep up an "act", so, maybe that's one indicator? But, overall, you're right, this sticks in my craw because I should not have been put in this situation in the first place (the A) and absolutely should not have been put in the further compounding situation of having to make it a requirement for R. The first, if a WS is reading this, is water under the bridge, the 2nd, however, can be "fixed" right up until the point where your BS says "I want this too", and then, sadly, it's too late.

So, I ask, what is there "to do" about it? I'm really not sure there's any action to take beyond "put it out of your mind" and "enjoy what you get".

I do think that BS's might vary in their reception though - example: my shitbag x did a lot of things for his little 18yo skank that he never did for me - love notes, sending her poems and songs, 'little' romantic gestures. After dday when we were trying to R, I could have asked for those things. But I didn't want them at that point. Because the ONLY reason he would have been doing them for me is to keep a roof over his head.

I'm sure your right. But if Mr. Shitbag tried those things and you shut him down, at least he TRIED. It would take an effort for him to write a love note, even if you didn't want it, it would show some engagement in the "trying to help" aspect. You might crumple it up and throw it away, but it's something, and, at least to me, something is better than nothing at all. Of course, as you said, a big motivation for it COULD be keeping a roof over his head, but, it's not a huge stretch to "He realized what he stood to lose and wanted to make me feel special". Where if you said "Write a f**king love note a**hole!" it would be really hard to stretch that into "he loves me". It's all matters of degrees, with one end being the spouse filled with remorse who is trying all kinds of things to fix it and the other end being a spouse who only does the minimal action when a proverbial gun is pressed right up against their head. The first, IMHO, is always preferable to the 2nd. And him trying things gives YOU the power to reject him (if it's really something you don't want) rather than you being the one to ask him. While I agree with your "lack of authenticity" issue, for me personally, I'd prefer to question authenticity rather than KNOW it's inauthentic (which, if it's something important to you, are really your only two options, question it because your WS did it without asking or know you demanded it).

But if they didn't want to and they did anyways and you didn't use physical force? Then that is their shit to deal with, not yours. Don't overthink things too much here RIO. I, for one, expect a certain amount of cajoling from men when it comes to sex. It's just part of the dance. So long as you were in that camp (which most men are IME) then don't get your knickers in a twist about it.

Kind of hard to not get the knickers twisted when, having exactly the same conversation about "cajoling" the WW to open the sexual menu it turns into a discussion about rape and being an incel. It's just hard to know where the line is and, as said above, I SUCK at determining one type of response from the other.

Booyah posted 7/7/2020 09:28 AM

It's one thing when your spouse said she/he didn't want to partake in certain sex acts. I may not like it but I appreciate the fact that she's being upfront with me.

Why would I want her to do something she doesn't enjoy?

Now come to find out, that not only has she stepped out of the marriage (and all of the lies and cheating) but she now gave some OM the EXACT thing she said she hated doing?

HELL YES I WOULD BE PISSED!!!

If I stuck around and tried to R I would never ask, demand, guilt her or force her to now do this act with me.

She already showed this act isn't a no-go with her as she did it with OM.

She can't do it with me on her own free volition than this tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about where she is with me and our relationship that she already murdered.

No way I'm going to feel emasculated.

I'm going to say bye bye to R and her cheating lying ass.

Seems to me a lot of people on here are making this WAY more complicated than it should be.

The betrayed spouse does NOT have to stick around and eat this bullshit!! That includes women and men BS for crying out loud.

StrugglingCJ posted 7/7/2020 11:16 AM

I think in alot of cases the sticking point isn't whatever fantasy was being fulfilled.. Its that the CS willingly did it for the AP.. And probably pushed back at the BS whenever it was mentioned..

It is this lack of shall we say balance that is the issue.. As a BS you might not want all the acts they went through.. The porn star sex.. Etc.. What you DO want is to feel that you CS WANTS to make you happy as much as they WANTED to satisfy the AP.. Its back to that permenant comparison.. Does the CS actually want me.. Or am I just the safe stopgap..

This is why it can be an issue for R.. Because you have to address the lack of being desired once you find your partner cheated on you.. You don't feel desirable.. And unfortunately much of the heavy lifting in fixing this is from the CS who has to put the effort into the marriage they put into the A.

It might be little things.. Cups of tea/coffee, or big things like a sexual act.. But it is effort that says I am here for you now.. No one else.. And I WANT to make you happy.

[This message edited by StrugglingCJ at 11:17 AM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

sisoon posted 7/7/2020 13:14 PM

My hope with these threads is that some WS somewhere reads this and realizes that of those options (assuming the BS doesn't want to D) the "spontaneously" option is dramatically better, at least for me, than any of the other alternatives.

It looks to me like the question is, 'Is my WS doing these things with ulterior motives, or is s/he/they doing it out of love?'

That question is there whether the WS does them spontaneously or by request. That question is always there for everyone in a relationship.

IDK how long ago your W cheated, RIO, but it took me 3.5-4 years to trust my W loved me and was in love with me. She was an ideal (what a lousy concept!) WS - no TT, no blame-shifting, no rug-sweeping, no minimizing, stopped lying on d-day, immediate NC (she did have to have contact because of professional obligations, but those ended pretty quickly), immediate IC with no bullshit (she had lied to her IC about what she was doing, and her IC would have no more of it), etc., etc., etc.

If my W had been less ideal, I expect it would have taken longer to earn back my trust.

I'm with you - I don't think many people can fake it for 2 years. But I'm pretty conservative, so I waited longer. It wasn't an excruciating wait - I was pretty sure my W was not jiving me. But I waited.

But it always comes down to one's own choice to trust someone. There's no way to know how vulnerable a person is to betraying others. Hell, I expect my W has other vulnerabilities. I expect I have vulnerabilities. I also expect that neither of us will get into situations in which the vulnerabilities take us over.

RIO, You owe yourself some peace. If you're a couple of years into R, it may just be too early for peace to have developed in you. 5 years out? Maybe you're doing yourself a disservice. Maybe she's where you want her to be....

*****
In the following scenario, is the BH being reasonable, or is he going straight to demands and coercion?


The only part of the conversation I have a concern about is the question 'Are you OK with (my contacting a lawyer).'

The BS set a requirement for R - that gave the WS a free choice. The WS refused to meet it. I can't understand why the BS would then ask permission to engage a D lawyer.

Frankly, I continue to have problems with that sort of requirement, because it leaves the BS wondering if the WS agrees to meet the requirement because of ulterior motives.

Just musing here ...I think what I'd want if my W had done something with another man that she wouldn't do with me is to find out why. The last few pages of James Baldwin's Another Country is a confession of an A. It's very convincing - for the one A that is being revealed - and its suggestive about others.

I beleve that very few As are about love and that very few are about sex. My bet is that a lot of aps do things because they fear losing the fantasy if they refuse, which is IMO a sign of not trusting the ap. They refuse their BSes because they trust them, and maybe even because they love them. That may be no solace, but it may be true nevertheless.

At the same time, I do agree that a loving partner would do their best to accommodate their loved one without an ultimatum. There are things my W likes that I don't. I love her, but.... If she gave me a choice between doing them or D, I might do them resentfully, but I don't know or how long. If she told me to choose between being neat and D, we'd D - I can't do neat. Maybe that gives me too much sympathy with WSes about sex.

*****

I've written the above because I'm interested in the problems at issue here. I do not mean anything I've written in this post to support R over D or D over R.

That's very separate from the question of how to recover if your WS went around the world with the ap but won't with you. One can choose both D & R whether your WS choose to deliver or not. Your choice.

SlapJacks posted 7/7/2020 14:00 PM

While some on here hate seeing these threads, I tend to get a lot out of them. I think part of it is that there is very little literature out there for BHs. Almost every single infidelity article is skewed towards BWs. And if it does touch on the experiences a BHs may or may not feel, it is basically the same mental medicine offered for BWs. While I think we can ALL agree that the pain from infidelity is the same regardless of gender, the underlying feelings of that pain might be more gender based. So...BHs...keep posting on this subject.

As for my situation, I have come to realize that what really bothers me at my core is the enthusiasm factor that my WW shared with her AP. Before her affair, my sexual menu with WW was large and frequent. But I also know that one act (anal in particular) was something that we did, and she enjoyed. However, it was always something we did after she had a few glasses of wine. I cannot think of single time we did it when she was stone-cold sober. She also has to be very aroused to do it. A lot of foreplay has to occur. I also know that I am the only guy, pre affair, that has done this with her.

Now after DDay, I have learned that she had anal sex with her AP the very first time they had sex. And she was sober. Apparently this was a "regular" occurrence. To me, that tells me that the sex was extremely passionate, and hot. And therein lies my pain. Not the actual act itself, but the total expression of enthusiasm that she gave to her AP. I would wager money that there are very few guys that "got that" from any woman during their first sexual encounter with a woman. I can only think of her affair as a disgusting version of Eric Church's "Wrecking Ball" song. To be blunt, we know that enthusiasm trumps technique any day of the week.

I know my WW had sex with other people prior to our marriage, as did I. I can also admit that she probably had some better sex with a guy or 2 along the way. I can accept that, because I had a few ONS as a single guy that were off the charts too. But prior to her affair, I believed that some things were just mine and mine alone. Call it "objectifying women" or whatever. I don't care. But this particular act involves a level of intimacy and trust that, when shared in an affair, is something that must be, for lack of a better word, reclaimed if R is to be successful.

So while I do not condone making a person do something against their will, I completely understand the ultimatum that a BH would give a WW. And if she refuses, well...sorry, sweetheart, there is a door, and I am walking out. Because at its fundamental core, you are basically showing a total lack of enthusiasm for you BH. And that fundamental need to "be wanted/desired" is the essence of being together and even attempting R.

hikingout posted 7/7/2020 14:22 PM

My hope with these threads is that some WS somewhere reads this and realizes that of those options (assuming the BS doesn't want to D) the "spontaneously" option is dramatically better, at least for me, than any of the other alternatives.

I wasn't going to post. I wasn't going to post. I wasn't. I have been sucked in by this thread more times than I could ever count.

I just wanted to affirm Sisoon's hopes. I totally read these threads when I just got here and I pretty much followed it. But, I wanted to expand that a bit for other new WS's.

Overall, what I got from them is that the energy that I needed to put into my relationship would need to have a have a wide range. I did not give the AP anything my husband hadn't had but I got the picture that he needed me to address his love languages - and not just sexual touch, my husband appreciated me grabbing his hand when we were walking somewhere or patting his butt when I went by him in the kitchen. Affection is important and it builds up the sexual relationship in very profound ways. I was reminded by the BS here just how many ways my husband needed me to show my commitment to repair, love more healthy, etc.

I think for some period of time it was transactional. Anytime you have sex with an end goal in mind rather than just the sex itself, then it's a transaction. But, I also learned that concept from these sorts of threads as well because I hadn't thought about the fact I was even being transactional. I always thought of myself as a sexual being, and I do enjoy sex. But, I definitely did some sex bombing in those early months with hopes of reparation. Sometimes with desire, but just as often just in hopes that it would start to smooth things over.

And, I don't regret it. My husband doesn't regret it. I am glad I went on to learn more and apply that knowledge because it allowed me to build something sustainable with my husband. But any signs you can show in the beginning that can help, you should do. The problem is that some only want to sex bomb and they want to put away the talking, they want to rugsweep, they are using it for more insidious manipulation.

But for others, it's just a matter of this is where we are in the beginning of R as a WS. We are still thinking about our desired end result. I would argue wanting to save the marriage is not a bad thing, but it has to go beyond that in terms of work the WS needs to do on themselves.

The second time HB rolled around for us around month 10/11, after our in house separation, after our exploration of divorce, it was all genuine. All desire. No transactions. No more believing I had control over the outcome.

I have no issue with a BS stating they want more energy put into the relationship sexually. I think that infidelity is a deal breaker, and if you want a new deal then you have to create one. I don't think most of these guys even put it as an ultimatum to their WS. But, the lack of energy by the WS has created a frustration that comes out here. We have to learn that not everything the way is being stated is literal or how they talk to their spouse. You will find the most frustrated ones are the one who refuse to tell their spouse any of it.

And, it makes sense why. They want to see genuine desire. So they sit quietly and wait and the longer they do that the more anger and resentment builds. I personally think that spontaneous is the best way, but my husband only experienced that because I heard those who were here stating it. I think that sometimes the assumption if she wanted you she would do x,y,z is a narrative that is unhelpful to you. What if the narrative was, I have unexpressed needs and wants and she is not a mind reader? Expressing that with a remorseful WW doesn't have to be an ultimatum. But, if she doesn't comply with trying to put more effort, then you can absolutely divorce her if you want to. You can divorce over any incompatibility or just the simple fact she cheated.

If your main love language is physical, and that's her 4th or 5th, she just doesn't understand that's how you see her love. Just like her love language might be Words of Affirmation and you are really not understanding how those things are important to her because they mean nothing to you. Those are just examples, I am not saying all genders have the same order of love language. Thinking that she doesn't naturally speak your love language because she isn't that into you, could be toxic for you. Undermining your healing. Instead, the narrative can be discussion. And, if they doesn't work, then maybe it becomes you might just not be that into her, you want someone faithful and more enthusiastic about sex, or more compatible on love languages.

I thought Walking on Eggshelz said some very insightful things, and I would agree with the eloquent way she put it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:45 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

Rideitout posted 7/7/2020 15:06 PM

IDK how long ago your W cheated, RIO, but it took me 3.5-4 years to trust my W loved me and was in love with me. She was an ideal (what a lousy concept!) WS - no TT, no blame-shifting, no rug-sweeping, no minimizing, stopped lying on d-day, immediate NC (she did have to have contact because of professional obligations, but those ended pretty quickly), immediate IC with no bullshit (she had lied to her IC about what she was doing, and her IC would have no more of it), etc., etc., etc.

If my W had been less ideal, I expect it would have taken longer to earn back my trust.

I'm about 5 years out. My WS was quite a bit "less than ideal", although, I agree with you, what a concept!

You know, I'm sure "trust she loves me" is the right way to put it. I'd say I do pretty much trust that now. Where I struggle is trusting she DESIRES me (sexually). We all, through the course of our lives, love lots of people we don't want to sleep with. And we sleep with lots of people (well, some of us) who we don't love. In a marriage, I want (demand is probably a better word) both. My W can love me until the cows come home, but if she has little/no sexual desire for me, well, that's not going to work out.

RIO, You owe yourself some peace. If you're a couple of years into R, it may just be too early for peace to have developed in you. 5 years out? Maybe you're doing yourself a disservice. Maybe she's where you want her to be....

Well, I often say this in these threads, but, this whole issue isn't really "my problem" anymore. I got what I wanted, but the process to get it caused me different issues. I suppose you could say that those are my "new issues" to work on, but, honestly, that's not about her really much at all, it's about the whole nature of male/female interactions. As I started to talk about in an earlier post, it's the question of "did anyone want to sleep with me" or were they just doing it to get something else. This analogy might offend, but the best way I can put it, it's like going out find someone to hook up with one night, meeting a beautiful woman, hitting it off, and having a wild night in bed together and then.. Finding out that she's a prostitute and your buddy paid her to show you a good time. It totally changes the nature of the relationship, and, unlike my analogy, not just for that one woman, but for all women. Which is completely unfair, there are, and some of them post here, women who really do just want a "night of fun and sex" with a guy. But how do you tell that woman from my W, who certainly presented that way to the AP, but was really after ego kibbles and attention? IDK. And that's the really crushing thing to me, not necessarily my W, but really all dating/sex/etc has become tainted by the knowledge that this is a common thing for people to do, so common, in fact, that it seems to be nearly all affair sex falls under the blanket of "sex for kibbles". Well, except for the guys I know, who would tell you a very, very different story, but.. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH LYING people. Who to believe? If everyone is going to lie, why even ask the questions!? It's kind of like the "was he/she better than me in bed" to which, I suspect about 0 R'ed couples got a "yes, much better" as an answer. Don't even bother asking the question, because you know the answer will be a lie, and, if it's a not a lie, you'll think it is anyway because everyone will/would lie about it. It's head spinning. It's also why I've decided that the worst job in the world must be a politician; stacking lie on lie on lie until you honestly have no idea which was is up anymore.

My bet is that a lot of aps do things because they fear losing the fantasy if they refuse, which is IMO a sign of not trusting the ap. They refuse their BSes because they trust them, and maybe even because they love them. That may be no solace, but it may be true nevertheless.

This may be true, but, if so, it's completely awful and SHOULD NOT ever be condoned, supported, or called out for anything other than what it is, horrible human behavior. It's like regularly kicking your dog because you trust it'll always come back to your side because it loves you. Sure, you can do that, but, if I see you do it, I'm going to call you out for what you are, a complete and utter piece of s**t who doesn't deserve... Well, I'll stop, I love animals, and that would quickly turn dark, but, it's really the same thing. I trust this dog to not bite me and not run away, so I can treat it like s**t. This other dog over her, it might bite me, so I'll give it a steak. Yup, I'm sure some people do just that, but those are NOT people I want to have anything to do with.

I have learned that she had anal sex with her AP the very first time they had sex. And she was sober. Apparently this was a "regular" occurrence. To me, that tells me that the sex was extremely passionate, and hot. And therein lies my pain. Not the actual act itself, but the total expression of enthusiasm that she gave to her AP.

This, exactly this. It's not about anal sex, it's about "extremely passionate, hot" sex. And that often means "the full menu".

But this particular act involves a level of intimacy and trust that, when shared in an affair, is something that must be, for lack of a better word, reclaimed if R is to be successful.

As do pretty much all the "hang up" issues that we discuss in these threads. Anal, BJ's, cunnilingus, threesomes, sex in public.. All the normal issues all convey a level of intimacy and trust that; as you said well, must be recreated. I simply cannot imagine having to ask the AP how my wife enjoys some deeply intimate (to me) sexual act, and yet, I don't need to, because after d-day, he knew and I did not. You want to know the really f**ked up thing though? We've now, for years (and after I dropped the hammer and said I was not going to live like this anymore) done all the stuff she did with the AP and more. You want to know how she likes it? A whole lot, that's how, up to the point of actually demanding some "new kink" we've incorporated into our sex lives at times. While she could just be a good actress, I choose to think otherwise. So, if she's not "acting" (and also wasn't "acting" for the AP, she really does enjoy the kinkier side), well, WTF?! Were you not doing it with me out of spite? Fear? You feared doing it with your H more than some rando AP? IDK, it's just like I'm in bizarro world sometimes, it's like a kid refusing to eat ice cream and munching through 3 heads of broccoli?!

But, I definitely did some sex bombing in those early months with hopes of reparation. Sometimes with desire, but just as often just in hopes that it would start to smooth things over.

You say this as something you're ashamed of HO. I see later you say you don't regret it, and you SHOULDN'T regret it, or be at all ashamed of it. Sex bomb away. What's the perceived harm here? Sure, you might rug sweep some of the issues, you know what? I wanted to rug sweep some of them in the beginning and, you know, I'm smart enough that all the sex in the world isn't going to make me forget that we still have a conversation to have. I just don't see the harm in this behavior AT ALL, in fact, I think that it should be standard operating procedure.

As most of you know, I used to be friendly with a group of guys who did a lot of cheating. Invariably, they'd eventually wind up getting caught, and they had a very smooth, practiced response in mind, starting with "chuck the AP" and then all sorts of "love bombing" to the wife, redoing vows, new rings, vacations in exotic locations, new cars.. And so on. Now, let me say, these guys weren't ANYONE anyone here wants for a H, but the general actions they took, there's something to be learned there. Because they saved relationships from the depths of depravity, and, if they wanted to, could then change themselves to be a better H. Their actions were calculated, of course, and with an "end goal" in mind, but, honestly, from the W's perspective here, what would you rather have? Of course, a "non-cheat" would be high on the list, but, if you must have a cheater, of course one who moves swiftly to "fix things" is preferable. Now, that said, they were generally "fixing things" with thought of doing it again in the future, but, there's something to be learned from their actions. And, not surprisingly at all, while my W was caught in the "fog" her AP (after d-day) was doing exactly the same thing, patching things up, going to IC, suggesting MC, back to church, vacations together, all of it. While I'm dealing with a W who's trying to explain to me "yes for him, no for you".

In summary, learn from the practiced cheats and take the best of what they have to offer and leave the gadawful motivations they have for it. Just because you react "well" at d-day doesn't mean you have to go and cheat again, in fact, it means you know what's important to your BH/BW and want to fix things with them.

The problem is that some only want to sex bomb and they want to put away the talking, they want to rugsweep, they are using it for more insidious manipulation.

Exactly, sex (or gifts or time, of whatever) bombing isn't bad, it's GOOD if you're doing it because you love your H/W and want to fix the relationship. It's only if you're doing it to try to "patch things up to get back out there" that it becomes something ugly.

And, it makes sense why. They want to see genuine desire. So they sit quietly and wait and the longer they do that the more anger and resentment builds.

Yup. And issuing an ultimatum, even if it's "OK" with all of us, takes that "genuine desire" and makes it very difficult to believe. I know, I did it, and I got it all. And I'd do it again if I could go back in time, because, if I hadn't I would have divorced, and that wasn't what I wanted. But man, it could be so much better if I hadn't had to do that.

I think that sometimes the assumption if she wanted you she would do x,y,z is a narrative that is unhelpful to you. What if the narrative was, I have unexpressed needs and wants and she is not a mind reader?

No, she's not, but particularly coming out of a highly sexual affair, it's a bit obtuse to say "I'm not a mind reader". Well, you read his mind just fine, didn't you? Why would you think I'm so different (especially, in my case, because we'd discussed the sex stuff through the course of our relationship, she knew that certain things that were off limits were important to me). And you know, this is one of those instances where enthusiasm for the task at hand is perhaps more important than the skill in accomplishing that task. Let's make that a bit more concrete, let's say my W cheated and anal sex was my unspoken desire. Now, it's not rocket science, that's a pretty common desire, but, let's say after the A, she somehow misreads it. And comes to bed whispering a naughty, "we're going to do something new tonight" and out of the closet jumps another woman. Or, she hands me a blindfold and cuffs. Or really any damn thing, it's the thought, the effort and the enthusiasm that matters as much as any particular act. Also, if there's like some huge mystery as to what to do (again, which I find very difficult to believe because it seems lots of people suddenly figure it out with their AP), just Google it. The list you'll get will probably be pretty complete, it's really not some huge secret, anal, BJ's, swallowing, sex in public are all extremely common male fantasies. I can't speak for women, but I suspect that's a bit more complicated and varied.

Thinking that she doesn't naturally speak your love language because she isn't that into you, could be toxic for you.

And that's true in a normal marriage. But after an A? Not so much anymore. Because what we're talking about is a WS claiming "I don't speak that language". OK, fine, I can help you learn it, you help me learn yours and we'll figure it out together. But you'll never speak it as well as I do, because, well, it's my primary way to express and receive love. Gotha, check, no issue. The problem comes when your spouse goes wayward claiming the only French they know is "Oui" and suddenly, with the AP, they're writing books and singing in French (your love language). Then the situation changes, I know HOW to speak it just fine, I just don't want to talk to you in that language. That's where things fly off the rails. I thought my W was a very poor French speaker before the A, come to find out, she was excellent at speaking French, she PRETENDED not to know/understand it. That's very different.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 3:11 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

hikingout posted 7/7/2020 15:22 PM

again, which I find very difficult to believe because it seems lots of people suddenly figure it out with their AP

I will correct you a bit there. I think the AP often expresses exactly what they want. In the case of your wife and myself, they went in with a game plan and had no problems stating or asking for what they wanted. We didn't have to figure out jack.

Honestly, it's not a surprise to any woman that a man likes sex, so I understand what you are saying. But often in relationships for some reason there are other dynamics at play. "I don't want to ask her for that" or "If I give him that then that will have to be worked into our rotation" Whereas often with the AP those logistics go out the door. Every single time the WS is with the AP it's typically for the transaction (in limerant affairs) of being seen a certain way. You aren't really thinking about if you give up X this time that you are probably going to have to do that once a week for the rest of your life. Instead, you are saying "I will do this for now to convince him of X". It's way more calculated.

I wasn't apologizing for being transactional after the A - I was acknowledging that is what was happening. I have seen a lot of BH on this site say they have been sex bombed, and then they end up rugsweeping or tolerating other things that are not desirable. I saw a post like that just last week.

I was actually saying I learned the difference between being transactional and not, because in all reality most of the time I don't think the person doing it realizes it. With the AP, with the H, in the past, etc. You just don't think that way if there isn't money on the nightstand. But, it doesn't mean that it isn't distinctly there and needs to be removed in order for things to be sustainable. Otherwise, when the "payoff" for the behavior isn't there, then the behavior goes away. That's why it's not optimal long term.

Buck posted 7/7/2020 15:24 PM

While some on here hate seeing these threads, I tend to get a lot out of them. I think part of it is that there is very little literature out there for BHs. Almost every single infidelity article is skewed towards BWs. And if it does touch on the experiences a BHs may or may not feel, it is basically the same mental medicine offered for BWs. While I think we can ALL agree that the pain from infidelity is the same regardless of gender, the underlying feelings of that pain might be more gender based. So...BHs...keep posting on this subject.

As for my situation, I have come to realize that what really bothers me at my core is the enthusiasm factor that my WW shared with her AP. Before her affair, my sexual menu with WW was large and frequent. But I also know that one act (anal in particular) was something that we did, and she enjoyed. However, it was always something we did after she had a few glasses of wine. I cannot think of single time we did it when she was stone-cold sober. She also has to be very aroused to do it. A lot of foreplay has to occur. I also know that I am the only guy, pre affair, that has done this with her.

Now after DDay, I have learned that she had anal sex with her AP the very first time they had sex. And she was sober. Apparently this was a "regular" occurrence. To me, that tells me that the sex was extremely passionate, and hot. And therein lies my pain. Not the actual act itself, but the total expression of enthusiasm that she gave to her AP. I would wager money that there are very few guys that "got that" from any woman during their first sexual encounter with a woman. I can only think of her affair as a disgusting version of Eric Church's "Wrecking Ball" song. To be blunt, we know that enthusiasm trumps technique any day of the week.

I know my WW had sex with other people prior to our marriage, as did I. I can also admit that she probably had some better sex with a guy or 2 along the way. I can accept that, because I had a few ONS as a single guy that were off the charts too. But prior to her affair, I believed that some things were just mine and mine alone. Call it "objectifying women" or whatever. I don't care. But this particular act involves a level of intimacy and trust that, when shared in an affair, is something that must be, for lack of a better word, reclaimed if R is to be successful.

So while I do not condone making a person do something against their will, I completely understand the ultimatum that a BH would give a WW. And if she refuses, well...sorry, sweetheart, there is a door, and I am walking out. Because at its fundamental core, you are basically showing a total lack of enthusiasm for you BH. And that fundamental need to "be wanted/desired" is the essence of being together and even attempting R.

Slapjacks, is part of your issue you spent the time and energy making your WW feel comfortable and safe enough to engage in anal sex for the first time with you, then some other POS gets to enjoy the fruits of your labor (so to speak)?

This aspect of the sex thing really bothers me. I started dating my WW when she was 20, and she had very little sexual experience when we started dating. I'm the guy that made her feel sexy, respected, and comfortable enough to engage in all sorts of sexual activity that she had not even considered before. Our sexual menu was pretty damn varied and sex was awesome before her A. She completely agrees with this statement BTW.

My WW used to be like yours prior to her A. Now she's DTF any way, anywhere and it's available whenever I want it. I damn sure don't have to coerce or force her to do anything. I'm constantly being sex bombed (I hadn't heard that term before, but it fits my situation). She maintains to this day there was no anal in her A, I'm not so sure how I would feel if I found out otherwise now. I'm fairly certain I would leave. I don't think there's anything she could have done with him that we didn't do, because there was nothing we didn't do sexually. The enthusiasm and seemingly flippant way she decided to cheat, without much thought or regard for the consequences, are other factors that are hard to take too.

Now I feel much like RIO, I wonder about her motivation now. Sex pretty much sucks these days. I've lost my passion for her. The thing is, I don't know how to fix these things. These threads are usually a bunch of BWs arguing with the BHs over stupid shit they really don't understand. There are never any solutions.

So how do you overcome these things?


EllieKMAS posted 7/7/2020 15:25 PM

it's about "extremely passionate, hot" sex. And that often means "the full menu".
Just have to point out - no matter how hot, it was all based in lies and deceit and bullshit. And (I think anyways), generally speaking a WS doesn't do it for the "extremely passionate hot sex" - they do it for the pathetic crumbs of kibble fed to them by their AP. They do it to fill their brokenness. I dunno, I just think maybe too much is being read into the sex with the AP.

Their actions were calculated, of course, and with an "end goal" in mind, but, honestly, from the W's perspective here, what would you rather have? Of course, a "non-cheat" would be high on the list, but, if you must have a cheater, of course one who moves swiftly to "fix things" is preferable. Now, that said, they were generally "fixing things" with thought of doing it again in the future, but, there's something to be learned from their actions.
Maybe I am in the minority here, but I can damn well tell you this. After going through this fucking shitshow once, if I should ever be unfortunate enough to have it happen again? I have zero interest in even attempting to fix anything with that person. Cheating = bye felicia. I know there are a lot of reasons for staying and I am in no way disparaging those who choose that route, but this W is not one of those.

Exactly, sex (or gifts or time, of whatever) bombing isn't bad, it's GOOD if you're doing it because you love your H/W and want to fix the relationship. It's only if you're doing it to try to "patch things up to get back out there" that it becomes something ugly.
I think I'd push this just one level further and say that lovebombing in and of itself isn't bad, but doing that and nothing else (digging into the why's, transparency, MC/IC etc) is a major problem. In order for the lovebombing to be a healing gesture, it has to be done in conjunction with other proactive measures as well.

Rideitout posted 7/7/2020 15:41 PM

I will correct you a bit there. I think the AP often expresses exactly what they want. In the case of your wife and myself, they went in with a game plan and had no problems stating or asking for what they wanted. We didn't have to figure out jack.

Oh, for sure, it's entirely different, you can press for whatever crazy kink you want, because if the AP says no, just move on to the next one. Marriage is much "higher stakes" in asking for sexual stuff/changes and talking about desires, I agree with you there. That said, I do still think that most of it pretty darn self-evident and doesn't require extensive mind reading powers even if they aren't pressing for it. And that honestly isn't just sex, it can be any of the love languages. My wife loves gifts, if I were a cheat, it would be pretty easy for me to figure out things to buy her that she'd like without a whole lot of thought. Given that the spectrum of "crap to buy" encompasses about a billion possibilities and the spectrum of "crap to do in bed" is perhaps 100 possibilities, with about 5-10 that are "high likelihood of enjoyment", well, honestly? Just try them all! :) If there were only 5 gifts that most women wanted, and I could afford all 5 to help patch up an A, well, I'd just get one of each.

Honestly, it's not a surprise to any woman that a man likes sex, so I understand what you are saying. But often in relationships for some reason there are other dynamics at play. "I don't want to ask her for that" or "If I give him that then that will have to be worked into our rotation" Whereas often with the AP those logistics go out the door.

I understand what you're saying, and I also agree with your analysis. However, this is nuclear level toxic. This is the "dog kicking" analogy, and this has been the impetus for many a male cheat to "dive in" to the AP waters. I've never cheated, but, do you think I haven't been told, probably dozens of times now by men who have cheated what the sex is like? It's "nothing held back" and wild as hell, as much as you can take, anything you want? Darn right I have, and, the only A I know for a fact what happened, that's EXACTLY what it was. I'm not excusing the behavior, but, come on, this is another thing where shaming might be the right response; this is atrocious behavior. The best analogy I can draw, this would be like a cheating husband with a 10 year old son who loves baseball but has never been to a game, taking his AP's 10 year old son to the game with front row tickets. And the justification for this, when the wife asks, "Well, I knew it was temporary, and I couldn't afford tickets every week, so I decided to take her son and not ours". Maybe add to it and say "And, our son has to love me, I'm his father, the AP's boy doesn't know me from Adam, so I had to impress him". Wow.. OK then, there's logic in the decision, but it's as stone cold and disgusting as it possibly can be. And we should call it that, yes, it's your right to make that decision, but, if you do, it's at about the highest level of heartless and cold as possible.

Just have to point out - no matter how hot, it was all based in lies and deceit and bullshit. And (I think anyways), generally speaking a WS doesn't do it for the "extremely passionate hot sex" - they do it for the pathetic crumbs of kibble fed to them by their AP. They do it to fill their brokenness. I dunno, I just think maybe too much is being read into the sex with the AP.

I think this is just where we don't see eye to eye. Do you think, for one minute, I cared if the girls I slept with in the past were lying to me? Saying "I loovee you so much RIO". Well, let me tell you the answer, I didn't. She could lie all she wanted to about how she felt about me, be entirely full of bullshit, it simply did not matter at all. I was there for the sexual experience that we wanted to (well, I thought at the time) share together, the words were just the way we got where I thought we both wanted to go. Now, perhaps this is very different for others, and also, perhaps this is why I have so much trouble believing the "hot sex becomes not hot after d-day", but, as I stated earlier, I had fantastic, seeing stars sex with some women I really didn't like at all. The two things were/are completely disconnected in my mind, sexual skill/desire and love for someone just were two completely different tracks. And maybe it came back to bite me with my W, it wasn't the hot sex that "sucked me in", it was the way I felt about her which was outside of our sex life (which was, at best, mediocre before the A).

[This message edited by Rideitout at 3:50 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

hikingout posted 7/7/2020 15:47 PM

That said, I do still think that most of it pretty darn self-evident and doesn't require extensive mind reading powers even if they aren't pressing for it.

That's because you think like a man. Also because you don't think like a WS.

As a woman, my inclination was more to believe that if the shoe was on the other foot the last thing I would want is for him to start throwing himself at me. We make these types of assumptions based on not understanding how we would feel in their shoes.

I didn't do act on that because I read here, but for a long time I wouldn't say things because I feared they would come off ingenuine. I thought I should only concentrate on showing him. But, the fact I wasn't expressing myself verbally along with the showing caused me to almost get a divorce. It was all based on the idea of what I would feel if he were to say that to me in the same situation.

Truth is, I haven't been betrayed so to jump to any assumption on what I would feel was false. It limited my behaviors based on some sort of assumption.

So, if I am operating under the feeling "he can't even look at me how am I supposed to believe he wants to be with me sexually", and the man is saying "if she loved me she would be trying to have more sex with me" and neither discuss it....how productive is that?

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:49 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

Westway posted 7/7/2020 15:52 PM

My wife, for example, could have a orgy in about 10 minutes on any message board out there, it would be dramatically harder for me to have the same. She could have 3 new sexual partners before the night is up, again, without paying for it, I couldn't even come close to keeping up with her sexual access to men. So, if I'd been the one saying "no" and then went and did it with someone else, it's not like she'd have ANY trouble at all getting someone to do it with her, in fact, it would be laughably easy. So while the same hurt might be there, I think for those with really high level sexual access (usually, but not always women), it's less of a "thing". They can have whatever they want, whenever they want it. It's like stealing 100 bucks from a rich guy vs stealing 100 bucks from a poor guy. It probably annoys them both and makes them both angry, but the rich guy has an easy fallback, "There's plenty more where that came from" where the poor man does not, he values that 100 dollars a lot more than the rich guy, even though it's the same offense.

This is why "open" marriages don't really work, because the husband is immediately at a disadvantage.

[This message edited by Westway at 3:53 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

Rideitout posted 7/7/2020 15:56 PM

@HO, your last message, IMHO, just summed up why I engage on these threads. You're right, it does seem logical to assume "he doesn't want me to touch him" after your A, but, in many cases, that's exactly the wrong thing to do; I know for me it would have been. Now, this one does vary, some people really want nothing to do sexually with their WS after an A, others, like me, have sex on d-day because they want to feel close to someone who's just torn themselves away from you. But I think you illustrate well the value in these threads.

hikingout posted 7/7/2020 15:56 PM

Westway - the problem with your logic is that your wife went looking for men. There are always women looking for men, especially in online chat rooms.
You would have to look no harder in a chat room for that type of reciprocation than she did.

You may be convinced of that because maybe years ago in a bar it would have been a lot harder, but with today's technology all you have to do is get someone to swipe right. Technology has changed a lot, you could get laid any night of the week would be my guess because it brings you to willing participants who are advertising for those types of services.

Women who are having affairs have to have partners, so therefore there are as many men hooking up as women.

leavingorbit posted 7/7/2020 15:57 PM

And we should call it that, yes, it's your right to make that decision, but, if you do, it's at about the highest level of heartless and cold as possible.

I think an observation I have about this is how sex is socialized individually. I didn't see sex as a loving, intimate act in my life. My husband viewed it that way but I didn't recognize that. Sex was a weapon or at best, a bartering chip. I feel like that's the result of the abuse cycle I experienced before I got into therapy and worked on that toxicity. It certainly wasn't my husband's fault. I don't know your wife's story, RIO, but I don't think mine is uncommon. And I think when you have a really messed up view of sex (as in, completely disengaged from the emotion or meaning it can possess), you don't treat it as a special experience. I certainly didn't.

EllieKMAS posted 7/7/2020 16:02 PM

I think this is just where we don't see eye to eye.
I know we don't and lord knows why I keep trying RIO. Just from my personal situation - it wasn't about the sex. My shitbag of an x had the "full menu" with me from day fucking ONE. I am adventurous and will try just about anything once. If I don't want to try it, I am honest and upfront about it. So... yeah - it wasn't for the "hot passionate sex". It went way deeper than that into some part of him that was so fucked up and broken that I can't even start to comprehend it. Maybe it's a man/woman difference? Maybe my case is some weird outlier? I don't know. But because of my experiences, I just don't believe that any sex ever is THAT good to make you cheat on your spouse. There's other more profound reasons for choosing to cheat.

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