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A thought has coalesced for me, something I've been ruminating on for a while, which relates to the idea of a BH's sense of sexual humiliation, the degree he feels that, and the difficulty of R as a result. It seems that there is proportional relationship to the degree to which the sexual acts done by the WW with/for/to the AP comprise in some way an unfulfilled sexual desire or fantasy of the BH that can multiply that sense of sexual humiliation.

There are a couple of threads around even now where that seems to be a factor. And, conversely, there are a couple of threads where the opposite is the situation (the AP didn't get any special sexual treatment), and R seems to be moving apace.

Thoughts? It was not a factor in my case, but R was also not a prospect in my case, so I can't speak to it personally. Just something I've observed from reading here.

if the BH is not recovering the marriage then in the end after

being angry that the OM got full menu sex and he only got

to eat from the limited menu all there is to do is to divorce his

WW and find someone new.

AP comprise in some way an unfulfilled sexual desire or fantasy of the BH that can multiply that sense of sexual humiliation.

There are some sexual fantasies that should remain just that, Fantasy.

WH had fantasies of watching me have sex with others, men and women. I refused.

WH had fantasies of having sex with women with red hair, raven haired etc etc. I refused to dye my hair or put on a wig.

WH Had fantasies of having sex with Transgender men/women. Well nothing I could do about that.

Like I said, talking out loud with your spouse about your sexual desires and fantasies is very different from carrying them out with others who were willing. I refused to be a Swinger also... we could go on.

My one desire was for a beautiful gentle loving caring husband. That too will be an unfulfilled Fantasy. 🙏🏼

the WW with/for/to the AP comprise in some way an unfulfilled sexual desire or fantasy of the BH that can multiply that sense of sexual humiliation.

They sold their souls to get it. Life is often about trade offs. Would a man rather the sexual fantasy or his morality and dignity? Never doubt that they gave something up for "the prize."

BFTH - going for another 50-pager?

going for another 50-pager?

Was just thinking the same thing

As far as I know (HA!) my wife and her AP didn’t do anything too crazy in the sex department. Time and opportunity only allowed for quickies at his places, which happened 7 times over the course of about 5 weeks. She swears that nothing was given to him that was denied to me.

At this point, I’m coming up on 4 years since the A. Her story hasn’t wavered once. I guess I believe it, but with some skepticism. I usually got (and continue to get) the most basic forms of duty sex after the kids were born. I just figured that’s the way it goes after awhile. But if I found out that she was giving him everything that I was desired but denied, despite the fact that I was working my ass off to support my family... DEAL BREAKER!!!

For me, it would not increase the humiliation or resentment. Those feelings were already at full capacity. Even an EA would have them there.

..it WAS the AP's fantasy and he DID pay with his life and soul.

..it wasn't her fantasy though, merely doing what he had trained her to do.

..they both lost their morality and dignity.. oh ..and respect

smy

You knew you were going to hear from me, right?

1) Many women go through the same attack-self crap the men do - the humiliation, etc.

2) The sense of humiliation is something BSes do to themselves.

What's underneath the thought, 'I've been humiliated'?

Fear comes up first for me - fear that I'm not man enough to satisfy a woman, fear that I'm not man enough to have a woman wishing to fuck me and be fucked by me with every fiber of her being, fear that I'll be exposed as a pussy (sorry, I don't mean to insult women) - hell, I'm such a pussy that I drove my W to take up with a woman! (That doesn't quite compute, though - if I'm a pussy, and my W wanted a woman, well, she had me.)

All of the attacks above comes from internal messaging - you're a pussy, you're lousy in bed, your dick is too small, you're ugly, you're stupid, nobody loves you, but your mother, And she could be jivin' you, too (tip of my hat to B. B. King). Man, I hate to write all these attacks on self out, because just writing them gives them power.

Look, if you're not good enough in bed, someone who loves you will tell you so and help you get better together - and if that doesn't work, the partner can/will D in the hope of finding someone more compatible sexually. Your performance in bed is very rarely the cause of cheating, though many people claim it is through blame-shifting.

Part of healing is to change the messaging. Change your self-talk.

You're loving, lovable, and capable.
You're as good at sex as your partner wants - and you can get better if you work together.
Your WS cheated; you didn't.
Your WS cheated for their own reasons, not because of anything you did or didn't do.

For the most part, people don't cheat for sex. They cheat to avoid dealing with issues. They cheat to get away from their day-to-day problems. They cheat to get away from themselves. Sex may take up a lot of the time aps are together or thinking about each other or communicating, but it's not a lot of the motivation of payoff for cheating.

A lot of the above is JMO, but I think this is a fact:

the cure for the sense of humiliation is to change your self-talk.

My WW talked to the AP about her fantasies of being submissive him being dominant etc.. Stuff WE had talked about and were going to try.. But She stopped all that when she was getting it elsewhere. And after DDay refused to entertain doing the things she had done for him on the grounds that she didn't want to copy the A..

So yes I can say it is a big stumbling block when the CS in effect gives you a sample menu but offers everything to the AP.. and IMHO if they really want to R the CS needs to accept that they need to be as open and giving and as sexual with the BS as they ever were with the AP.. otherwise the question will forever remain in the BS head that the CS is holding back part of themselves.. Part the BS may really want to see and experience.. But is being denied it..

Yes jealousy is part of it.. But it is mostly the worry that the CS isn't going all in to the marriage but is holding part of themselves back.. And they have to be all in for R to work..

Ugh... again? really???

How many times, in how many variations, does this need to be asked? If you aren't happy with your situation of what you did or didn't get and you don't have a partner willing to accommodate that or you aren't ok with it, divorce.

I agree with Simon, that it is self inflicted, to an extent. But, it sucks to have to deal with the perception of some idiotic third parties questioning your performance. Folks do this. I have heard them.

How many times, in how many variations, does this need to be asked? If you aren't happy with your situation of what you did or didn't get and you don't have a partner willing to accommodate that or you aren't ok with it, divorce.

WELL SAID! 👏🏻

Aww, BFTG, I know everyone kinda pounced. It has been such an emotionally contentious topic, but maybe it wasn't really on your radar.

There are a couple of threads around even now where that seems to be a factor. And, conversely, there are a couple of threads where the opposite is the situation (the AP didn't get any special sexual treatment), and R seems to be moving apace.

I think we should say, in general, that this belief that an AP was treated better in any way seems to reflect a WW who is unremorseful in her attempts to reconcile and win over her BH. Many threads here have a BS trying to explain, convince, or beg their unremorseful WS to meet their needs, and it's never, ever, ever going to work, regardless of whether those needs are switching jobs, ending contact with the AP, stopping business travel, or upping their sexual game. So there's maybe no need to rehash the topic of sex as more or less important than all of the other needs post infidelity. To those posters who feel unloved, it is a need that the WS is uninterested in meeting, and that's all a BS needs to know.

The problem is never WHAT the need or love language is. The problem is that if an unremorseful WS offers excuses, the BS needs to walk away. And many times--too many times--they won't. They stay and suffer. You can't blame someone for hurting you with their actions if you stick around and put up with it.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:34 PM, July 3rd (Friday)]

I realize it's a tired old topic. But people like Darkness Falls and Pink, among others, don't realize how life altering and damaging this can be to a man (not to exclude women from this pain either, but usually this tends to be a male issue). I remember back in high school, finding out that my girlfriend (who was my first everything) had done lots of sexual things with other guys that we hadn't done. It quite literally drove me insane, and eventually that ended the relationship. Yes, I was an 18 year old kid... but I still remember that pain like it was yesterday.

Now, imagine instead your wife of however long does that with other men WHILE married to you, and meanwhile gives you pity fucks at best. It's possibly THE MOST EMASCULATING THING that could happen to a man.

Oh shoot, here we go again. :) It's been awhile though, and, honestly, when I saw this topic, I thought I was going to see a lot of "it's none of your business" and "you have no right to want what the OM got" or even, as we've seen in other threads, "this is why women should lie about sex". Thankfully, we've seen none of that, which.. IDK, maybe encouraging?

They sold their souls to get it. Life is often about trade offs. Would a man rather the sexual fantasy or his morality and dignity? Never doubt that they gave something up for "the prize."

Who sold their soul to get it? The OM? LOL, at least in my case, he was a practiced cheat, he sold "nothing" and lost "nothing" getting all the great kinky sex from my wife. Yes, he was in the doghouse with his wife for awhile, I'm sure, but selling his soul? Not hardly, his contribution to the relationship was a bunch of tired lines and lies and in return, he got the full on porn star experience. It was a fantastic "deal" for him, there's no other way for me to see it, he spent 2 weeks lying and got everything that I'd wanted for our entire relationship and marriage. Sure, he had to lie to get it, does anyone here think that in any way detracted from the experience for him? Because I sure don't, not for a heartbeat.

But people like Darkness Falls and Pink, among others, don't realize how life altering and damaging this can be to a man

It's usually a man in this situation, but not always. In previous threads, I do recall a woman (BW) or two speaking up that they wanted things in bed their husband wouldn't do and then turned around and did with the AP. But, in general, I agree with you; it really comes down to availability or access to sexual acts. My wife, for example, could have a orgy in about 10 minutes on any message board out there, it would be dramatically harder for me to have the same. She could have 3 new sexual partners before the night is up, again, without paying for it, I couldn't even come close to keeping up with her sexual access to men. So, if I'd been the one saying "no" and then went and did it with someone else, it's not like she'd have ANY trouble at all getting someone to do it with her, in fact, it would be laughably easy. So while the same hurt might be there, I think for those with really high level sexual access (usually, but not always women), it's less of a "thing". They can have whatever they want, whenever they want it. It's like stealing 100 bucks from a rich guy vs stealing 100 bucks from a poor guy. It probably annoys them both and makes them both angry, but the rich guy has an easy fallback, "There's plenty more where that came from" where the poor man does not, he values that 100 dollars a lot more than the rich guy, even though it's the same offense.

Now, imagine instead your wife of however long does that with other men WHILE married to you, and meanwhile gives you pity fucks at best. It's possibly THE MOST EMASCULATING THING that could happen to a man.

I don't need to imagine it, I've lived it (as I believe you have too). I won't say it's the "most", but, it's by far the most that I've ever experienced. And, of course, it calls our entire history into question, were you ever attracted to me, did you sleep with me just to get married/for the money/etc. It's pretty darn awful, I will certainly say that much. Years out now from d-day, it's the one significant wound that remains (and, for the record, my wife long ago "did it all" with me; the wound is still there, primarily because I had to make it a "thing" and a condition of R).

It's possibly THE MOST EMASCULATING THING that could happen to a man.

It doesn't have to be. That's internal work that only we can do. We must separate our self-esteem from those things that society says should matter, whether we're women or men. We must. We decide which messages to allow.

We all decide that we are good enough, more than good enough, regardless of--weight, height, hair on our heads, age, career, money in the bank, muscles, marital status, race, mistakes we've made, gender, income, children, breast size, penis size, disabilities, etc.

We must decide that we are good enough no matter what. We must like who we are, just as we are. That is our number one job.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:03 PM, July 3rd (Friday)]

It's disheartening to see members negative contributions.

It's equivalent to a CS saying "not this again".

If the topic is not if your interested or liking...don't comment.

However, there are others who do wish to comment and contribute. Let's not discourage or stop people from processing at their time/space/speed.