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Fantasy Deprived the BH, Delivered to the AP

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Rideitout posted 7/7/2020 16:37 PM

There's other more profound reasons for choosing to cheat.

There certainly can be. But this conversation reminds me of something I saw many many years ago, I cannot remember what it was, some documentary, where they were interviewing guys in prison for murder and asking them why they did it. Some of them were somewhat understandable, killed someone trying to kill me, killed someone who hurt someone I loved, stuff like that. And some of them, well, to this day, put a chill in my blood. "Wearing the wrong color on my block" and "I was bored" or "White/black in the wrong neighborhood". There was no "reason" that you and I would recognize as a reason to so much as snub someone, let along murder them in cold blood.

Just from my personal situation - it wasn't about the sex. My shitbag of an x had the "full menu" with me from day fucking ONE. I am adventurous and will try just about anything once. If I don't want to try it, I am honest and upfront about it. So... yeah - it wasn't for the "hot passionate sex".

I realize from what you said here, this might sound like blaming (what I've said, not you) the victim. Let me set the record straight, that's not what this is. Lots of cheaters, I'm sure, have great sex lives at home. However, that said, nothing can compete with "new sex". I know that's probably terrible to hear, but, and perhaps this is a big part of the reason I have so much trouble believing "it wasn't anything great" because, for me, new sex had to be downright awful to not be pretty great. Now this one, I'm pretty sure differs greatly for men and women, but the "Coolidge effect" is a real thing (in both sexes actually, but more so for men). Sex with someone new results in faster orgasm, more sperm, and more pleasure. It's a horrific "bug" in the system for humans where we value monogamy, but it's a "thing" and IMHO, chasing that "reward" certainly contributes to a lot of affairs. If it was equally pleasurable to have sex with your wife, and your wife was available for sex, why go through all the trouble and heartache? There has to be a reason, right?

I'm just not sure that searching for a more "profound" reason really will yield much in at least some of these instances. I liken it to a doctor spending months doing tests on someone who's morbidly obese trying to find "the problem". Thyroid, blood pressure, stomach issues.. When the most obvious answer "Eat too much and exercise too little" is overlooked. It's fun to eat a lot, and easier to skip a workout. And because of those things, we have a massive obesity problem in this country; sure, we can also ascribe a ton of other "stuff" to it, but, I strongly feel that the more likely answer is just personal self control and denial of pleasure for longer term gain. And I think that the same is true, especially for the affairs I know about, there's no "deep issue", or horrific "foo" or anything really much beyond "sex is fun, sex with someone new is especially fun, and I feel entitled to do this and have a willing partner". It's a lack of self-control more so than anything else.

SlapJacks posted 7/7/2020 16:37 PM

Slapjacks, is part of your issue you spent the time and energy making your WW feel comfortable and safe enough to engage in anal sex for the first time with you, then some other POS gets to enjoy the fruits of your labor (so to speak)?

Not really...I don't think it was because I was her first. Sure that was special, and it was nice knowing I had been her "only." The hurtful part is that I know what it takes to get her to do that. It's not like I could come in the door, say "hi", grunt a few times and go there. And that was what was so cool about it. It was the build, the foreplay, the intensity of getting her to mentally and physically open up and want it. There is also the submission aspect of it which is another level of mind fuck. I'm a fairly dominant personality, but damnit, I feel like the world's biggest wimp....in a period of months.

Now I feel much like RIO, I wonder about her motivation now. Sex pretty much sucks these days. I've lost my passion for her. The thing is, I don't know how to fix these things. These threads are usually a bunch of BWs arguing with the BHs over stupid shit they really don't understand. There are never any solutions.

Yep...pretty much the same way. My DDay was a little over 60 days ago, so I am a newbie. But sex has been a struggle for me ever since. Struggled with ED for the first few times immediately after, and then once that passed, I could not finish. I kept waiting for that mythical HB to kick in but it never did. Now, it's hit or miss. Usually, I just focus on me and the person beneath me could literally be any female. I used to be very visual. Loved looking at my wife while we did the deed. Now I close my eyes and fight back the mind movies. And I know this is a bad place to be, but I feel if I'm going to allow R, I need to get back on that horse so to speak. Hikingout commented on a post I made that basically said sex would be awkward for a time. If I am still in this same mind frame a few years from now, I may have to move on.

That is why I find post like these helpful because there literally is no help for men. None. And we now know that women cheat just as often as men do, or very close. The psychological help has not caught up with the trend of more women having affairs.

KingRat posted 7/7/2020 16:48 PM

I think the sticking point that always turns these threads is the 50-page circular argument is sexual autonomy in any relationship, when generalized, creates a double standard. I want to make it clear that I support sexual autonomy, but I want to also make it clear I recognize how this can negatively affect the less sexual partner and show that I am empathetic to this.

For example, since we are generalizing, women appreciate emotional gestures and men appreciate physical gestures. Again, this is a generalization. Take the example of the WH, who makes elaborate romatic gestures for the AP but won't even remember to buy his BW a birthday card. If during R, as a condition, his BW said he needed to step it up for next her birthday, or he goes packing--no one would criticize her. In fact, most people would support her.

Flip the script. Substitute elaborate romantic gestures with porn star sex. People would not be so supportive. In fact, they would likely call the guy an asshole. Demanding sexual acts with coercion is not cool.

Obviously, people will say demanding sex acts is different. And they're right; it is different. Both do have a common thread in that they can be uncomfortable and can be demonstrative of emotional and physical attraction. But one cannot be imposed as a condition for reasons not worth getting into in this thread.

I think these situations are the exception not the rule. Yes, it does happen, but no, for all the new comers reading this thread, it is not a common occurrence in affairs. If we can recognize that there is an inherent inequity and pain for a BH in R where this is present but also understand that the underlying pain is the for both BH and BW--rejection. I believe this would help in not making these threads so circular and divisive.

EllieKMAS posted 7/7/2020 16:53 PM

And I think that the same is true, especially for the affairs I know about, there's no "deep issue", or horrific "foo" or anything really much beyond "sex is fun, sex with someone new is especially fun, and I feel entitled to do this and have a willing partner".
Well... DUH. Of course it's fun and exciting with someone new. This is not stop-the-presses type news.

But still..... I just think that simplifying it to that is glossing over that there IS (almost always) a deeper reason why people cheat. Because otherwise everyone would be cheating cus who the hell isn't excited by something new an attention? But I feel like chalking it up to simply new = good can (possibly) be detrimental to a new BS. Because really let's be honest, once you've been married for a while... new is gone. It just is. And for a newly hurting BS, IMHO that just isn't a helpful thought. Again - I am a woman, so maybe I am missing something that can only be appreciated from a male perspective. But I can tell you, my x pulled the 'it was just something new' line with me and I know for 100% fact that THAT was utter horseshit. Please note - I am not interested or trying to understand my xwh's issues. BTDT and frankly just don't care at this point.

The truth that I work from is that broken people do broken ass shit. Someone who chooses to cheat on their partner is broken in some deep down fundamental way. Sometimes a WS can fix that brokenness and move on to a happier marriage with their BS. Statistically that is not super likely. But in order for repair to happen, a WS must to dig into those deeper fundamental reasons.

achilles1101 posted 7/7/2020 17:05 PM

SlapJacks,

I find myself in a similar situation but a little more narrow. My wife's affair seemed to primarily revolve around BJ's. I always enjoyed that, surprise. Since D Day I have been able to finish every other way but that way. I have tried concentrating, thinking about before the affair, my favorite time and not much luck.

My wife understands and feels bad about it, but no matter what she tries I can't seem to do it.

The mind is a strange thing and can do strange things to you. Maybe one day I can "train" myself to do it. Who knows.

Westway posted 7/7/2020 17:24 PM

hikingout

Westway - the problem with your logic is that your wife went looking for men. There are always women looking for men, especially in online chat rooms.
You would have to look no harder in a chat room for that type of reciprocation than she did.

You may be convinced of that because maybe years ago in a bar it would have been a lot harder, but with today's technology all you have to do is get someone to swipe right. Technology has changed a lot, you could get laid any night of the week would be my guess because it brings you to willing participants who are advertising for those types of services.

Women who are having affairs have to have partners, so therefore there are as many men hooking up as women.

I don't agree. Here's why. Say you are a woman and you are very attractive. Say you are a "9" on the hot scale. Now say I'm your husband and I am plain as a mud fence, pudgy and awkward. I score a "4". So you decide you want to have sex with other men and you will let me have sex with other women. Simply because of your good looks you could attract 10 times the number of attractive male partners to choose from, whereas in the same time period I might be lucky if I attract three women who I am not attracted to.

Now say you are the "4" and I am the "9". Even at that, not every woman I go after will have me, but if you put yourself out there, you will still score as many if not more male partners than I will simply because you have a vagina. There are men, hikingout, who will literally fuck anything with a hole: short, tall, fat, skinny, pretty, ugly, fragrant, stinky... there are men (I know lots) who do not discriminate at all.

[This message edited by Westway at 5:24 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

ShutterHappy posted 7/7/2020 17:30 PM

Like everyone else here, I was deeply hurt when I learned that my (now ex) WS affair was physical.

But I never cared about what they did exactly. Itís not that I donít want to know, I just had no interest.

So I guess Iím different than all 70 000 SI members. Something is wrong with me

The way I see it, if my (now ex) WS engaged in acts that are painful to her or degrading, just to get the compliments coming instead of appreciating a husband that loves her and respects her, sheís really messed up. Now the question becomes... do I really want to be with someone with so little self respect?

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 5:31 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

Rideitout posted 7/7/2020 17:52 PM

Say you are a woman and you are very attractive. Say you are a "9" on the hot scale. Now say I'm your husband and I am plain as a mud fence, pudgy and awkward. I score a "4". So you decide you want to have sex with other men and you will let me have sex with other women. Simply because of your good looks you could attract 10 times the number of attractive male partners to choose from, whereas in the same time period I might be lucky if I attract three women who I am not attracted to.

It's a little different than that, and perhaps another difference in male/female A's. Let's for the same of simplicity, say you and your wife are both 5's. The big difference is that a woman who's a 5 level attractive, if willing to engage in an A or if offering NSA sex, can go "up" the attractiveness scale. So a woman who's a 5 can get a man who's a 9 to sleep with her if she's offering NSA or affair sex. The reverse is generally true for men, you have to go "down" the scale if all your offering is NSA or A sex. So a man who's a 5 and interesting in a short term fling will often find the only interest is from people who are 3's. Put another way, women can generally secure sex from men they'd never be able to secure a commitment from; where men can generally use commitment to secure sex from someone they'd never be able to have a ONS with. This is the general supply/demand disparity in sex, and it accounts for a lot of financial market surrounding sex (female porn stars are paid 10X what male porn stars are, almost 100% of prostitutes target their services at men, etc). When you're talking about open relationships, the only way any man who isn't rich/famous and young can possibly keep up with a similarly attractive woman is to pay for it; it's just not even a "fair fight". My wife could, before the night is out, have a line of guys hotter, fitter, younger and more virile then me lined up out the door waiting their turn if that's what she wanted. The level of sexual access that woman who's a "5" has compared to a man who's a "5" is simply unimaginable to most of us (who aren't women or rich/famous men). My wife can't walk across a crowded bar without a guy giving her "the look", and that's with her not trying in the least and wearing modest clothes. Maybe we have guys here who get 10 "soft offers" of sex in 5 minutes, but I think it's safe to say, that's not your typical guy.

And perhaps that at the root of a lot of the hurt surrounding this issue. It's something valuable to some of us because it's hard to get. Where, for other people, they can't fathom getting that upset about it because it's so easy for them to get. I know that's kind of how I feel about words of affirmation, how on earth can that have so much power over some people? It's so easy to get someone to tell you how awesome you are, isn't it? Well, maybe the answer is "no, it's not", at least not for some people, and therefore that carries a lot more weight? Or, more likely, some people just need to hear it a LOT more than other people, someone telling me "Good job RIO" once a month is more than enough for me, where for my wife, she needs to hear it ever 5 minutes? Either way, the analogy stands, if it's easy to get for me (I'm a 10 female) or if I just don't have much desire for it (I don't need sex as much as my partner) I'm not going to put nearly the value on it that someone does who either doesn't have the same amount/level of access or someone who puts a high value on it?

OwningItNow posted 7/7/2020 17:57 PM

Yes, KingRat. Exactly. Where's the like button?

The truth that I work from is that broken people do broken ass shit.

For sure, EllieKMAS. And I haven't read all the posts in this thread because it feels like Groundhog Day. But people who think "wanted some new sex" is an actual Why, you can't change their minds. This is their truth and they have no desire to peel back the layers. Maybe because that would challenge beliefs about themselves, justifications or rationalizations? I don't know. But if "wanted new sex" is a real Why, so is "wanted to be cared about" and "wanted to be special." Look no further, the truths have been uncovered.

As an fyi: wanting new doesn't make you broken, but acting on it does. Broken people act out regardless of consequences, and that absolutely demands a Why. What is wrong with the person who is willing to follow through? That's some broken ass shit right there.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:05 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

Rideitout posted 7/7/2020 18:07 PM

As an fyi: wanting new doesn't make you broken, but acting on it does. Broken people act out regardless of consequences, and that absolutely demands a Why. What is wrong with the person who is willing to follow through? That's some broken ass shit right there.

Is "broken" a synonym with "asshole". I mean, sometimes I feel like that might be what I'm missing here. Broken to me means some psychological pathology, something actually 'wrong' with them. But it sounds like maybe we're just saying "cheaters are assholes", and, if that's the message, I recall my objections; I agree with that. If that's not what we're saying, are all broken people assholes, or all assholes broken people?

I guess I just take offense at the implication that there's something actually "wrong" with a cheater beyond being, well.. Assholes. Selfish assholes actually, but, no need to get terribly specific on this particular point.

In my JFO thread, I got a ton of "your wife is broken" then with a soft (or hard) implication of "something you did broke her". I think that's why I react strongly to that word, because, well, if she's broken; who "broke" her? And is the fix "stop acting like/being an asshole" or is there more to it than that? Also, I guess my final point, are we all "broken". Would I qualify as "broken" if I had an A now, broken by my W's A? What if I had an A before her, still broken, or just a selfish ass?

I really think we're assigning a pathology to something that's not actually unique to cheaters, it's part of the human condition. Who among us can't point to 10 points in their life where they were "broken" by circumstances, FOO, or other people? I know I can, starting with my W's A as "exhibit A". Broken as f**k, still not cheating. Is it because I'm not broken enough, or because I respect my vows and practice self-control/take measures to keep myself and my relationship safe?

cocoplus5nuts posted 7/7/2020 18:09 PM

Too much for me to read before I respond. People don't seem to understand what coercion is. Coercion requires a threat. If there is no threat, there is no coercion.

I your SO wants to have sex with you and you don't really want to, but you do anyway, you were not coerced. If your SO says that, if you don't have sex with her right now, she is going to go out and find someone who will, that is coercion.

If someone has sex with for the ego kibbles rather than the physical acts, that's still authentic. They are doing it for their own reasons. Just because they aren't having sex for the same reason you are doesn't mean it isn't a real desire of the other person.

I mentioned my past traumas to explain what I wouldn't give in to sexual demands. I also said that I'm not a CW. I can't say why they would or would not do anything.

Can't remember who opted the scenario about telling the CW you are going to D because she won't perform for you, but I think that's perfectly fine. That's exactly what you should do if you can't accept it. Yes, there's a threat involved, but it's a reasonable, rational threat. If you aren't satisfied with the terms of your M, you will D. I would hope we would all do that.

Now, if your CW then decides to serve up the full menu, you have a dilemma. Is she doing it because she really wants to, or so you won't D? Can you live with that uncertainty? Unfortunately, that's a no-win situation, imo, if you really want R. That's why I say the only healthy solutions I can see are to either accept that you aren't going to get it, or D.

I think maybe a lot of people don't understand what I mean by accepting it. I do not mean that you bow your head in defeat forever living with the resentment. I mean that you consciously decide that you can let it go. You love your CW enough, or you want R badly enough, that you stop needing that from her. If you can't do that (you don'thave to), your only healthy option toward peace is D.

EllieKMAS posted 7/7/2020 18:16 PM

Right but therein lies my point RIO. Everyone has had a time or two or ten in their life when they felt broken by something. But NOT everyone then goes out and cheats on their partner to feel better/get kibbles. So... Clearly there is something 'more' broken/asshole-y/whatever in a cheater.

I'm not sure it qualifies as a pathology, but there's definitely something more at play than just 'new sex'. I mean... was that your ww's 'why'?

The issue I have with boiling it down to just new booty is that it carries an implication there, however vague, that the BS didn't do... sex or affection or whatever "right". And that line of thought is a big hell fucking no for me. A BS might be an asshole, or frigid, or any number of less than ideal things, but a BS is NEVER to blame AT ALL for a WS choosing to cheat.

cocoplus5nuts posted 7/7/2020 18:17 PM

We do offer solutions. I have offered solutions. It seems you just don't like the solutions offered. You want to be told you are right. It's ok. We all like that. But, it's not necessarily ok. It's a very delicate subject and it just depends.

The aftermath of infidelity sucks. It's a no win situation no matter what the BP chooses. I'm pretty sure that the BOs who divorced didn't want to get divorced. They felt they had to because of what their CS did. I know I don't want to be D. I want my family in tact. That's the ideal. That's why we get married, right?

It's also a losing situation if we R because we have to continue living with the person who hurt us in a most egregious way. No matter what they do to make amends, it is never enough to make it right. That pain is with us forever. It might become tolerable. It might even become enjoyable, but there will always be that little niggle in the back of the brain.

So, choose your poison.

cocoplus5nuts posted 7/7/2020 18:24 PM

RIO, you are looking at everything only through your lens. The fact that you think nothing can compare to new sex doesn't mean that everyone else does. I can guarantee you there are people who whole heartedly disagree with you on that.

If I had a choice between new sex and the sex I have with my H, I would choose my H every time. He knows exactly what to do for me and he does it. Whenever I imagine having sexwith someone else, I get stuck on thinking about how much work it will be and how long it will take before the new person does it right. Bad sex abounds, especially for women. There are too many men who are only interested in themselves. They don't care if the woman enjoys herself. Yeah, it's a bonus if she does, but that's not what they're there for. They're there to get their rocks off. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am. I am not interested!

You say you are now realizing that other people don't do things for the same reasons you do, but they you go back to those reasons as explanation for why you don't get it. If you realize that people are different, you don't need to keep saying that you don't understand. It doesn't matter. You don't have to understand everyone else. Accepting that they are different from you is enough.

Westway posted 7/7/2020 18:30 PM

And perhaps that at the root of a lot of the hurt surrounding this issue. It's something valuable to some of us because it's hard to get. Where, for other people, they can't fathom getting that upset about it because it's so easy for them to get. I know that's kind of how I feel about words of affirmation, how on earth can that have so much power over some people? It's so easy to get someone to tell you how awesome you are, isn't it? Well, maybe the answer is "no, it's not", at least not for some people, and therefore that carries a lot more weight? Or, more likely, some people just need to hear it a LOT more than other people, someone telling me "Good job RIO" once a month is more than enough for me, where for my wife, she needs to hear it ever 5 minutes? Either way, the analogy stands, if it's easy to get for me (I'm a 10 female) or if I just don't have much desire for it (I don't need sex as much as my partner) I'm not going to put nearly the value on it that someone does who either doesn't have the same amount/level of access or someone who puts a high value on it?

That's kind of what I told my STBXWW. I said something to her to the efeect of "You give away for free, to all these strange men, what you required me to pay you with my life to get. And then you have the gaul to tell me you love me?" That's some sick shit.

Candyman66 posted 7/7/2020 18:36 PM

cocoplus5nuts; So, and I am just trying to get this right in my head, as far as you are concerned all the advice given here on S.I. is basically coercion???

Because most if not all of it is "do this, this and that or we divorce".

Or is sex the ONLY thing we are not allowed to coerce them on?

Just wondering?

truthsetmefree posted 7/7/2020 19:22 PM

This discussion has become so circular that I honestly am having to ask myself why I am still engaging in it. I think the biggest issue I am having is the pigeonholing that seems to be going on by people that have perspective clouded by prior negative sexual experiences or who haven't been repeatedly on the rejecting end of this particular aspect of a committed relationship.

And there is so much manipulation on this thread that I am triggering like crazy.

I think this is an important topic. I think it imperative that BHs have an opportunity to discuss this - for a multitude of reasons. And I am honestly appalled at some of the comparisons and even arguments that have been made that categorize them in deplorable ways. As a woman, it's the ONLY reason that I have commented on a thread that otherwise doesn't really apply to me.

At some point in time, we have to factor in the difference in intent. If you're an angry and punitive BH that wants to humiliate and exert power over your WW and you are using certain sexual demands to do that (or any demands for that matter) - then yeah, stop and go get help. But outside of that, the rebuttals that are being made just don't apply.

Rideitout posted 7/7/2020 19:42 PM

I mean... was that your ww's 'why'?

"I didn't think you'd care"
"I didn't think you loved me"

That's basically her "why" in a nutshell. And someone told her what she wanted to hear and she had a whole lot very mediocre sex doing everything under the sun with him (in her telling of it). In fact, the amount of sex they had nearly blew me off my chair until I saw that was pretty common, and then remembered back to the "war stories" I'd heard from other men about cheating wives and realized, well.. She did exactly what they do (their APs).

The fact that you think nothing can compare to new sex doesn't mean that everyone else does.

I agree, and further think that this is a big difference between male/female "typical" affairs. I've never had "poor" sex with a new partner, it's too exciting and well, "new" to actually be bad. At worst, a bit of a letdown, but still pretty great. And that's without the added danger/excitement (barf) of an affair. I can't see how that kind of sex would be anything below "very good", not because of the woman necessarily, simply because of the situation and "new" factor. Again, Coolidge effect.

Now, if your CW then decides to serve up the full menu, you have a dilemma. Is she doing it because she really wants to, or so you won't D? Can you live with that uncertainty? Unfortunately, that's a no-win situation, imo, if you really want R. That's why I say the only healthy solutions I can see are to either accept that you aren't going to get it, or D.

I guess, you just kind of have to. You're living with uncertainty anyway in trying to R, the way I look at it, might as well live with uncertainty while having great sex than live with it and have crappy sex (and the knowledge the OM got better). I do agree with you, it's a no win, for sure. I disagree on the "best" outcome though, it's not for the BS to "eat it" (live with it), it's for the WS to authentically offer it to the BS. Will the BS know it's authentic? Of course not, none of us can ever tell, which, of course, is really the entire problem we're discussing in this thread. But, that said, if we accept that the BS getting something they want is "good" even if it comes at some cost to the WS, especially if the WS was willing to pay that "cost" to for the AP, well.. The conclusion follows easily.

Best case, don't have an A.
Next best, if you do have an A, make sure that you provide whatever your AP got to the BS, at least offer it, and if you can offer more, do that too.
Less good, wait for the BS to tell you what they want and then do it.
Really not good at all; pretend it didn't happen/lie about it and let your BS much down that love s((t sandwich you served him/her.

The issue I have with boiling it down to just new booty is that it carries an implication there, however vague, that the BS didn't do... sex or affection or whatever "right"

First, I don't think it's always "new booty". In fact, I think the majority of affairs aren't "new booty" affairs. I think they are extremely rare for women, and I think that some men have affairs for other reasons too, therefore, if we assume a 50/50 split between men and women, I'd say that "new booty" is perhaps the predominant motivation, but certainly not all, and probably not even 1/2. That said, there's no implication of anything, even if "new booty" was 100% of affairs. As I've said before, at least some (almost all that I know) APs are just pigs. There's no "booty shortage", they just are stuffing as much booty into their pig mouths that they can get in there. My W's AP is certainly this kind of cheat, as are a lot of men I used to associate with. There's no "flaw" or "damage" other than being a pig and wanting as much as they can possibly get. I think I said it before, but it's like the millionaire stealing money from the children's shelter, no, they don't need the money, they are just greedy f**king pigs and will take whatever they think they can get away with.

I do not think there was anything wrong with the OBS (I knew her), she didn't cause him to be a pig. He was just a pig, a god quoting, religious charlatan of a pig. Beyond that though? Did he have FOO, or "damage" or a sob story? I'm sure he does, as do I, as do you. I'm not a pig though (well, I guess it's up for debate, but not a pig in the particular way that he is), despite my FOO and immense emotional damage that he and my W did to me. Why not? IDK, because I value my word maybe? Because I don't want to hurt other innocent people for my own pleasure? I really have no idea, but I've got more than enough "damage" to have a nice little FOO party by myself. Still not a cheater.

At some point in time, we have to factor in the difference in intent. If you're an angry and punitive BH that wants to humiliate and exert power over your WW and you are using certain sexual demands to do that (or any demands for that matter) - then yeah, stop and go get help. But outside of that, the rebuttals that are being made just don't apply.

Absolutely, intent is key. But, even in the absolute worst case I've ever seen of this blowing up in R, where the poster did something that we all thought was horrible (basically demanded his wife recreate a sex act she did the AP, right this moment, or she could get out the car), what was his intent? Well, it could have been to "punish her". But, I talked to that poster a lot, and you know what was really going on there? He was in impossible amounts of pain, pain HIS WIFE put him in, could solve whenever she wanted to and choose not to. Yes, what he did was wrong, what she did was, IMHO, more wrong. She created that situation, she lit the fuse and watched it burn and she took no action to try to extinguish it. Maybe she didn't know what to do (if any poster is in that situation, PM me, I'll tell you what I'd want), maybe she did and decided he wasn't worth it, or maybe she was just oblivious to the entire thing. Either way, in the absolute worst story I've ever heard on SI, I really don't think his intent was to hurt her, I'm sure he did hurt her, but it was because of the immense pain she caused him. It's not an excuse, but it's a reason. I just really don't see, here in particular, a group of men looking to abuse and injure their wives. Sh*t, I had EVERY opportunity to turn her world upside down, a hell of a lot worse than "I'd like to have some fun making love together". She's in a position of trust, I could have likely got her ability to work in that capacity removed. I have a pre-nup, so I could have financially hurt her very badly walking away. I didn't want that, I wanted to LOVE her and have her show me LOVE in the way that has value to me. This whole "rapey" conversation, while I understand it's basis, just doesn't seem to hold up when you look at an audience of BH's who are try to R with with their WW's.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:51 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)]

DevastatedDee posted 7/7/2020 22:51 PM

Is "broken" a synonym with "asshole"

That made me giggle.

Wanting new sex with new people is normal. Wanting lots of things is normal. The wanting isn't the broken or asshole part. Acting on it is the broken or asshole part.

I expect there is nothing an asshole loves more after DDay than their BS feeling sorry for them and trying to help them with their broken parts.

Rideitout posted 7/8/2020 05:05 AM

That made me giggle.

Wanting new sex with new people is normal. Wanting lots of things is normal. The wanting isn't the broken or asshole part. Acting on it is the broken or asshole part.

I expect there is nothing an asshole loves more after DDay than their BS feeling sorry for them and trying to help them with their broken parts.

Always happy to deliver a laugh. Of a facepalm. :)

I think it's kind of important though that we clarify terms here; because when I've spoken about my W's actions in the past, a lot of posters would say things like, in effect, "She's broken and you need to let her work though that" and "Something in her is obviously broken" or even "You need to give her time, she's broken". If what we're really saying is "She's an asshole" that's a much different message than "broken" at least to me. An asshole, I know how to deal with, I work with them, I'm paid to navigate through levels of assholes to get things done. And the way you deal with them is varied, side step them, go around them, misdirect them, or appease them. But you deal with them knowing "this person is an asshole, I need to treat them as such" which, for me personally, doesn't involve "kid gloves" at all, in fact, the more of an asshole I realize someone is, the more I'll bring out "with maximum prejudice" as my general go to.

Let me give a general example. Often times, we hear stories about people doing stuff like "throwing all his clothes on the lawn, lighting them on fire, calling his work, getting him/her fired, and then calling a D lawyer and taking them to the cleaner". Well, that's how you deal with an asshole, you realize what you're dealing with and you react with "maximum prejudice". You burn their world down, if need be, to protect yourself and your world. And it's justified, at least in my mind, because they did the same to you. I always get a little jump of happiness when I see a BW go "nuclear" on a WH because, well, that's what I wish happened to the OM, it's what he deserved for his actions.

But let's flip this around to the sexual discussion, what's the sexual equivalent of the "clothes burning the driveway while on the phone with the boss getting him fired, while typing an e-mail to the D attorney"? Well, while I know none of us like it, it's what a poster from years ago did; "suck my d**k or get out". Now, I have to say, while I do think that those things are a relatively equivalent, what he did still bothers me differently. I feel sorry for his wife, where I feel nothing but warmth in the cockles of my heart for the BW burning the WH's clothes in the front yard. And I'm not really sure why, but, honestly, I think it has something to do with my own bias against men or view of women as "victims" more times than not in an affair. Either way, I know I'd much, MUCH rather come home to my BW and find a list of new sexual "demands" rather than find my wardrobe on fire and a card for a D attorney.

And, to your last paragraph, exactly. I mean, someone who's broken deserves our sympathy and help right? It was their FOO, their horrible mental state, the horrible AP, or a million other things. And "demanding" sexual favors from a broken person, well, that feels like taking advantage of someone who's incapacitated, it's, as other posters have said, either one step from rape or is rape. Certainly "rapey". And I do wonder, are some of these newly labeled "broken" WS's laughing at us. I could certainly picture some of the WH's I know laughing their ass off about this, "I'm not broken, I just like getting my d**k sucked" would be something I could hear them saying if they read this or overhead their WW's talking about trying to fix their "broken" husbands. Is my WW the same? IDK. I do know, the BW's of the H's I've dealt with, ASSHOLE is a far, far better description of their behaviors, their motivations, their level of deceit and their level of empathy for what they've done (and don't get me started on their "empathy" for the AP, that's beyond asshole straight into sociopathy). Have their wives been convinced these men are similarly "broken" and need their help to "recover"? Maybe they are, and maybe that's how they excuse it? Someone with tourette syndrome has something broken in their minds, their outbursts are excused because they are broken. Someone who fires curses and racial slurs in the course of normal conversation is just an asshole and needs to be treated as such.

I think we do ourselves a disservice not calling it what it is. Calling WS's broken puts a lot of onus on the BS to not "break them further" or "take advantage of their brokenness" and even to "help them heal for the break". Where "asshole", well, that's different, we all know how to deal with assholes, and it doesn't require a long involved discussion of "well, will he/she really want to do this; is it genuine, will they be OK with it, etc"; who cares, they're assholes, treat them as such until their behavior improves.

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