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Fantasy Deprived the BH, Delivered to the AP

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fareast posted 7/8/2020 06:13 AM

ShutterHappy:

I just want to say you are not alone with your feelings. I felt the same. There is nothing wrong with you as far as I am concerned. The larger issue for me was the betrayal and broken trust. I had no interest in the sex acts they performed. That was her problem. She was broken and messed up. I was still the same guy that I was before her A. I was confident in myself before the A, including sex, and I saw no reason to feel less so after learning of her A. Her loss.

cocoplus5nuts posted 7/8/2020 07:13 AM

Candyman, yes, if you give ultimatum, it is coercion. I didn't tell my H, Do this or I will divorce you. I talked to my therapist. I read, How to Help Your Spouse Heal. I gave it to my husband to read. It wasn't, do this or I will leave you. It was, these are the things I need to consider R. It might be a subtle difference, but it is a difference.

If he did those things simply to avoid D, they would be disingenuous. That's why I say that the CP needs to do the work and really change for themselves, regardless of what their BP does. Change for yourself, to improve your life, because it's what's good for you, not so your partner won't leave you.

I don't want stuff from my H. I don't want more attention. I don't want more or better sex. I didn't ask for, or demand, any of that stuff. I want honesty, transparency, integrity. None of those things have the potential to harm my H. Coercing someone into participating in sexual acts that they don't want to do can be harmful. I would think that, if you truly care for your CP, as angry as you may be, you wouldn't want to potentially harm her. 🤷‍♀️

The same can be said for men. Maybe it's rare, but I'm sure there are times when men feel pressured into some sort of sexual act that they don't want to do. Maybe a man gets enticed into a threesome with another man and and ends up having anal performed on him. Does that mean that he has to do that from now on whenever his partner wants to even if he doesn't want to?

We're talking about a person's body, not some thing. We need to tread very lightly.

cocoplus5nuts posted 7/8/2020 07:46 AM

Someone mentioned expectations. Yes, we all absolutely have the right to expect whatever we want. We have the right to have whatever we want inside our own heads.

That does not mean that any other person has to give you what you expect. You may expect a raise or promotion. Your boss doesn't have to give you either. I can expect to be treated with respect. Unfortunately, many people do not deliver on that expectation.

Expectations can be dangerous things. They often lead to disappointment, which leads to resentment. The saying goes, "Expectations are resentments waiting to happen."

My H had many expectations about how I should be. When I didn't meet those expectations, he became disappointed. He then became resentful toward me. You know where that led him? To an A.

Boundaries are better, imo, because they are about you rather than others. We can't control others. We can control ourselves. Rather than expecting another person to respect me, I decide that I will not allow myself to be disrespected. It may be semantics to you. It may be subtle, but it can make difference in how you view the world.

hikingout posted 7/8/2020 08:23 AM

As per usual this thread is hard to keep up with. A couple of things:

Westway/RIO -

In terms of this I am a 4/she's an 8 or she can get an 8 when she is a 5 but I need to go and get a 3.

You guys are forgetting that most of us affaired-down significantly. I would never be able to rate myself, but lets say I am a 6 and H is a 7. The AP probably was a 3 or a 4.

I think sex is more readily available then ever before. Many of us haven't been in the dating pool in decades, and can't even fathom how much the internet has changed the landscape. My only point is - don't sell yourself short.

That said, I can understand to a married guy or gal who had a lower-sex drive partner that sex is a commodity. Hell, my first marriage ended because I could not get him to have sex beyond a time or two a month. So, I get it. My decision to divorce the first time was almost entirely based on being too young to be sexless, I got out of there before we had kids.

I think we do ourselves a disservice not calling it what it is. Calling WS's broken puts a lot of onus on the BS to not "break them further" or "take advantage of their brokenness" and even to "help them heal for the break". Where "asshole", well, that's different, we all know how to deal with assholes, and it doesn't require a long involved discussion of "well, will he/she really want to do this; is it genuine, will they be OK with it, etc"; who cares, they're assholes, treat them as such until their behavior improves.

You have a point there. But, I see WS referred to as assholes just as often as I see broken. The division is usually just there are BS in different stages of reconciliation and their WS are different levels of remorseful. So there may be different levels of compassion at any given time.

I do think we are talking synonymously though. I think some of the most successful R's I have heard of here the BS took the path of "you are an (asshole, broken, etc), and you need to change that". They left it for the Ws to figure out and protected themselves during. That's not to say there are not other positive R stories or other tactics such as pick me didn't happen for some period of time. But, I think for a BS to heal, they really have to detach from what the WS is or isn't doing and decide what it is they want and fully expect it. The WS has to want to change. Which brings me to this:

That's why I say that the CP needs to do the work and really change for themselves, regardless of what their BP does. Change for yourself, to improve your life, because it's what's good for you, not so your partner won't leave you.

All change is selfish to a certain extent. It is usually caused when the person is in so much pain they know they can not go on like this. They get curious about their accountability on how they got there, and what they can do to change it. I am not saying remorse doesn't play a role, it does, because remorse is painful too. But, you can't make a person change, they truly have to want to and see the benefits of it.

This loops back to this thread specifically.

I am going leave it gender specific and specific to the topic, even though it could be universally applied.

If you ask a remorseful woman interested in rebuilding your marriage to put more effort in the sex department, that is a valid request. And, I truly believe that request will be met without having to add any ultimatum.

Even a non-remorseful one will often do it at least initially especially in the circumstances of she still needs the marriage for some reason (kids, finances, etc)

A new WS after dday is not remorseful. I believe they can be sorry, but without really rolling around with you and your pain for months can she even begin to understand it enough to feel remorseful. Just like you need to know what you are forgiving, she needs to know all the cuts and bruises and wounds she gave you to get fully remorseful.

So, you just need to be aware that at first the only thing you can rely on with the sexual relationship is she is probably doing it because she is equally in shock in the light of day of the affair, and she needs her life not too change too much. She may feel regretful, sorry, and even believe she loves you. But, someone who just cheated either no longer understands love or likely never did. They see love as warm fuzzy feelings only, and it's not that. It's truly wanting the best life for your person and doing what you can to make that happen. It's a verb.

All in the end, if you have to issue an ultimatum for getting your needs met, why bother? Just get divorced. If you can't ask for what you want and her have some compassion and gumption, then why bother with it further?

Now, I am not trying to make it sound bleak but what I am trying to make very clear - this is why consistent behavior over time, and progress is so important. I think it's great that in those early days for a lot of us HB happens. I think it can be bonding, I believe it can help alleviate tensions. To me the love bombing or sex bombing in the beginning has more positives than negatives.

Just understand to never let it be smoke and mirrors - the WS is an asshole or broken or whatever you want to say - if your new marriage is to be sustainable they must get healthier life skills and attitudes.

I think I was more of an asshole than broken. But, that came from numbing my feelings until I was callous.

Lastly, RIO keeps referring to FOO. I don't think you read that much over in WS or maybe you do...but FOO to me is HOW we were able to make ourselves comfortable in having the affair. It didn't cause the affair or the decision to have it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:30 AM, July 8th (Wednesday)]

DevastatedDee posted 7/8/2020 08:38 AM

I think we do ourselves a disservice not calling it what it is. Calling WS's broken puts a lot of onus on the BS to not "break them further" or "take advantage of their brokenness" and even to "help them heal for the break". Where "asshole", well, that's different, we all know how to deal with assholes, and it doesn't require a long involved discussion of "well, will he/she really want to do this; is it genuine, will they be OK with it, etc"; who cares, they're assholes, treat them as such until their behavior improves.

Agreed. My XWH broke down in sobs with "you're risking my sobriety" when I'd hit him with a new discovery and that I swear made fire erupt from my very skin. He told me things only when I treated him like the asshole he was and gave no quarter. "Tell me or GTFO. I'm not living like this." He is a fucked up person, almost certainly "broken", but I had no intention of meekly behaving like collateral damage.

When I cheated back, I would legitimately call myself "broken" at that moment. I have wished so many times that I cheated back in an asshole way. It would be a cooler story. It would weirdly make me feel better about it if I could say that it was pure revenge and rage and "ha ha, in your face" behavior. So I do get "broken". No one is not broken on DDay. I think we have to go into "asshole" territory when we consider the planning and lying and deliberate actions that go on for days/months/years for most cheating.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 8:38 AM, July 8th (Wednesday)]

EllieKMAS posted 7/8/2020 08:44 AM

RIO someone can be broken and also be a total asshole. Exhibit A? My exdouche. Just saying.

The "broken" concept - maybe flawed works better for you? Either way, I still contend that someone who cheats is missing some core piece in themselves, or some core thing is flawed/broken - whether that is from foo, or abuse, or or or... Doesn't really matter what it came from, only that it IS.

And no uh-uh no WAY is it the BS's job to tiptoe around that or fix it or anything else. The WS has to get on fixing that. The BS has enough to do dealing with their collateral damage. I think some BS's take on that 'fixing' because in some ways it's easier to deal with someone else's shit, but on SI I think the general consensus is to tell them to put their own mask on first.

DevastatedDee posted 7/8/2020 08:47 AM

Lastly, RIO keeps referring to FOO. I don't think you read that much over in WS or maybe you do...but FOO to me is HOW we were able to make ourselves comfortable in having the affair. It didn't cause the affair or the decision to have it.

Agreed. Rape-of-origin is probably why I lashed back out that way on DDay, even though I still have a haze over the whole day in my memory and motivations in that kind of mental state are hard to parse. It is probably why I didn't take another tactic. Could have been laying in bed weeping, could have been killing myself, could have been lighting his clothes on fire, could have been leaving, could have been kicking him out. But that being the direction I took has something to do with who I am and what I have experienced. I don't have whatever FOO it would take to have kept it hidden, though.

It's weird being a madhatter in this way. I can't relate to the WW thing of being asked for sexual stuff because my XWH didn't get to ask me for a damned thing after what he had done.

OwningItNow posted 7/8/2020 08:58 AM

I think some BS's take on that 'fixing' because in some ways it's easier to deal with someone else's shit,

Or because trying to fix it gives you some (false sense of) control over whether it's ever going to get fixed or not, allowing you to avoid ending an M because it's not fixed.

"You're not doing anything about it! Give the problem to me then; I'll fix it!" Now the BS is exhausted instead of what they should be--divorcing.

EllieKMAS posted 7/8/2020 09:14 AM

"You're not doing anything about it! Give the problem to me then; I'll fix it!"
Wouldn't be a bit surprised if BS's also were the ones that ended up doing the whole group project... *pointing to self

hikingout posted 7/8/2020 09:37 AM

Fareast - That has been my husbands position as well.

Butforthegrace posted 7/8/2020 09:52 AM

Okay I wasn't going to post but here I am. Hoisted by my own petard.

When I was single and having a lot of non-exclusive sex with multiple women, most of whom were also non-exclusive, there were a couple of occasions where I was with a woman I'd not been with in some months, and she brought out some new technique or trick in bed that she didn't deploy the last time. The obvious conclusion is that she learned this from another man.

However, in context, it didn't make me feel bad, nor jealous. In fact, if she was rocking it, I would utter a silent "thank you, dude" to the other dude who taught her the new freaknick.

The emotional and structural aspect of marriage includes express promises of fidelity, which in turn leads to a high degree of emotional vulnerability. I realize it's easy for me to say stuff about this since I wasn't personally in this position, but it feels to me that it is my truth that I wouldn't want the sex stuff she did with the AP if it had been denied me previously. It feels like I'd leave the marriage. Again, I realize talk is cheap unless and until I've walked that walk, which I haven't.

Rideitout posted 7/8/2020 09:59 AM

I still contend that someone who cheats is missing some core piece in themselves, or some core thing is flawed/broken - whether that is from foo, or abuse, or or or... Doesn't really matter what it came from, only that it IS.

I think we're kind of agreeing, but, let me differentiate a little bit here and see if it still holds for you.

I just got off a call with a group of people where I was the most senior person on the call. I was acting like an asshole, I know I was, because I was annoyed that they didn't have any answers for me about something I'd asked them to look into. Why was I acting like an asshole? Well, I guess we could say I'm broken, or have FOO. I wasn't abused, so that one doesn't fit. But, you know what, none of them are the right answer; I can give it to you, because it just happened an hour ago, and I know exactly why I was doing it.

I was acting like an asshole because I COULD, and I was acting like an asshole because it was most likely to lead to the results I wanted, which was the people on the call to get me the damn TPS reports! (hopefully some laughter here). I was doing it because I have the power to do it, and because having those people see me that way is likely to get them to do the work that I need done. It's not, or at least I don't see it as some fundamental flaw, it's much less shallow than that, I can and it works to get results. And, in my particular situation, likely further damning myself to many posters here, it's just easier; sure, I could call each of them and have a 1-1 and talk through their issues and figure out why. Or I could just give them a quick verbal beat down, followed by some encouragement and send them on their way. The 2nd is faster, usually works, and leaves my day free to do other things rather than spending the rest of it on calls.

Selfish? Sure it is. But so are cheaters most especially cheaters intentionally "holding out" things their BS desires/needs (which could be sexual, but even more commonly, stuff like timelines/disclosure/"the work"/etc). Assholes? Yeah, I think that description fits too. Broken? Well, are most of us "broken"? I suppose if you think "yes, most of us are broken", then maybe. But doesn't the word lose meaning then? Isn't saying a cheater is "broken" basically just the same as saying they are "human"? I think that part of it is that something that "broken" doesn't just fix itself, it's broken. A lot of things that are broken can't be fixed, it's a more permanent thing, it's something that's part of you. Where being an asshole isn't an ongoing thing, it's a way you are acting in at a particular point in time, and it further implies something likely deliberate. My wife was acting like an asshole during her A, without question. She isn't acting that way today, she's no longer an asshole. Where if she was "broken" in or by her A, well, is she "fixed" now? IDK, I'm sure she doesn't know either. Seems much easier and more accurate to say, "Don't act like an asshole again" than "Fix yourself". It also puts far more culpability into the WS, acting like an asshole is something done intentionally, where being "broken" is something that just "happens to" someone through no necessary fault of their own.

The "broken" concept - maybe flawed works better for you?

Not really, because we're all flawed. I can be "broken" and "flawed" and not cheat (yeah, I know, I'm like exhibit A). A flaw might be something that I point at to explain away my cheating. But, deep down, I'm just an asshole who's doing asshole things. I know right from wrong, and if I'm intentionally doing wrong, well, I'm not sure I get to point at my "brokenness" or "flaws" as an excuse for "why". Nope, I'm just acting poorly, I know it, you know it, and I don't care enough to not do it. Seems to pretty summarily describe "acting like an asshole" to me.

Agreed. My XWH broke down in sobs with "you're risking my sobriety" when I'd hit him with a new discovery and that I swear made fire erupt from my very skin. He told me things only when I treated him like the asshole he was and gave no quarter. "Tell me or GTFO. I'm not living like this." He is a fucked up person, almost certainly "broken", but I had no intention of meekly behaving like collateral damage.

What an asshole. :)

When I cheated back, I would legitimately call myself "broken" at that moment.

See, now this, this I can on board with as "broken". You were quite literally stabbed in the back by the person you most trusted, suddenly, without warning. Your entire history was drawn into question. Your future together evaporated before your eyes. This is what breaks a person, not "I was bored", or "I thought you wouldn't care" or "She was hot" or "I needed more sex" or 99% of the other drivel we hear from BS's for the "reason". Someone or something has to "break you", and it seems like you should be able to point to something a bit more significant as to the "breaking event" than "you didn't get me flowers for my birthday". Physically abused women who cheat, for example, that I totally get for a "broken woman" discussion. But the lack of flowers on your birthday, or the lack of BJ for your anniversary? I mean, come on, can we call that what it is? I'm an asshole, and I need some excuse to do assholey things and this one seems to be the most convenient thing that I can grab onto. I think I recall a poster here once who's H cheated on her and claimed is was because his wife didn't press his ties for him. I mean, come on now, where do we draw the line as to what it is between "broken man who's tie has a wrinkle in it" and just complete assholery that's grasping for anything to assign shared blame or alleviate their own role in it?

DevastatedDee posted 7/8/2020 10:11 AM

I mean, come on, can we call that what it is? I'm an asshole, and I need some excuse to do assholey things and this one seems to be the most convenient thing that I can grab onto.

I think that's 99.9% of it. That's what all the rewriting history is about. All of a sudden they can barely function in life because they had a bad childhood, though when you met and married them they seemed to have their shit pretty well together. It's a case of choosing to be an asshole. It's pretty simple, really. I've been an asshole in life too and I knew it when I was being one. I'm sure I had all the reasons in the world to do it in my head, but that didn't change that I was being an asshole and was aware of it. No one is out there cheating and not aware that they are doing something wrong.

EllieKMAS posted 7/8/2020 10:46 AM

Hmm RIO I think we are more in agreement than not and maybe it's just semantics. But that said - I have know plenty of assholes in my time. But asshole or not, they still wouldn't make the choice to cheat on their partner. I am NOT saying that being 'broken/flawed' is a viable excuse for cheating (though I do think that it is a contributing factor, much the way that having an addict for a parent statistically increases the odds that you too will suffer from addiction - it doesn't relieve you of your accountability if you do become an alcoholic, but it IS a factor). I AM saying that there is an extra shrek-style "asshole" layer to a cheater that allows them to make that conscious decision to engage in an affair where a regular ol asshole wouldn't.

Yes, all people are flawed to an extent. A lot of people are broken to an extent - maybe just situationally so. But if it was true that being flawed/broken caused affairs, then ALL people would cheat. And as is evidenced by the thousands of BS's here we can say that that conclusion doesn't hold water. So... what makes one broken person cheat and another broken person not cheat? To me, the only logical conclusion to infer there is that there is something different (broken, flawed, whatever) in the WS's makeup that doesn't exist in the BS's. And yes, I just say 'a broken part' because it is the easiest way for me to think about it.

I think that it is important to reiterate to a new BS that their WS did this because of something inherently wrong in the WS's makeup, and not because the BS didn't give them enough sex/time/money/attention/whatever. That is always a hill I will die on - BS's do not cause their partner to cheat, no matter what they did or did not do. IMHO, it is counter-productive telling a new BH that his WW just needed 'better/different' sex. Maybe I see it differently cus I'm a girl, but to me that implies, however vaguely, that had the BH given them better sex then this wouldn't have happened. I don't think a new BH should be thinking or feeling that way.

*shrug Just one BS's opinion.

Rideitout posted 7/8/2020 11:01 AM

what makes one broken person cheat and another broken person not cheat? To me, the only logical conclusion to infer there is that there is something different (broken, flawed, whatever) in the WS's makeup that doesn't exist in the BS's.

Because, wait for it.. They are assholes! There's no "fundamental flaw" or "deeper issue" or much beyond "selfish asshole" in a lot of these cases. And that doesn't mean beyond redemption, not at all, I don't think I'm an asshole all the time or to all people. But WS's are big time assholes to the people who love them most, likely because they feel they can be, can get away with it, and don't value the other person enough. But instead of it coming all down to FOO, or "damaged" or some other fancy thing that "happened to" them, let's flip it around, they are what "happened to" us! And what happened to us is that we married assholes.

It's my word of the day, in case you wondered.

DevastatedDee posted 7/8/2020 11:30 AM

There are different kinds of asshole too. For example, I have two dogs whom I'm sure are technically assholes. They have both bitten people. One I've had since he was a puppy. He has no FOO issues. He is well-trained and smart and sweet to his people. I believe he has cognitive issues plus an anxiety disorder. Australian Shepherd, not uncommon in them to be a little nutty. He cannot be changed. He is who he is. When he has to interact with the world, he is medicated. The other dog, a Pomeranian, was dropped off at an animal shelter at 7 years old and was adopted and brought back 6 times in a year and a half before I took him home for good. He has FOO issues. He has abandomnent issues. It took months of work for him to fully trust me, but he trusts no one else. He was likely abused. His behavior has some hope of change with time and effort. One dog was born broken and one was broken from life experience. Neither shows their asshole side to me. That makes them superior to my XWH because at least I get loyalty from them. And dogs can't choose to change the same way that people can, but one is more being an asshole than the other. The Pom stopped being an asshole to me after some work. I can carefully introduce him to people in a way to have him not bite them. I cannot do that with the Aussie because his problems are more fundamental. I have no control over his psychological issues beyond medication. Ask him to do anything in a calm environment and he's my boy. Ask him to not have a mental breakdown, and he can't hear me.

So when I see "broken", I often think you have either someone who cannot change because of brain wiring (personality disorder) or you have an asshole. The truly broken cannot help being who they are.

Rideitout posted 7/8/2020 11:56 AM

So when I see "broken", I often think you have either someone who cannot change because of brain wiring (personality disorder) or you have an asshole. The truly broken cannot help being who they are.

Yes, exactly this. And that's a big part of my fundamental issue with "broken". And, frankly, while I'm sure some of us do have the pleasure of being married to fundamentally broken people, sex addicts that simply cannot change, for example, I really don't think that's even close to most of us. In fact, I don't even think it's a significant minority of us. Nope, we just have run of the mill assholes. They all smell you know.. :)

EllieKMAS posted 7/8/2020 12:32 PM

In fact, I don't even think it's a significant minority of us. Nope, we just have run of the mill assholes.
I think the biggest difference in our thinking here is that you look at 'selfish asshole' as a cause. I see it as a symptom.

Let me ask you this then. Let's say a new WS hit the Wayward forum and said "I cheated on my wife because I'm a selfish asshole." How well do you think that would go down? And I can answer that - not well at all. Other waywards regularly chime in that statement with a big noooooope. It's more - keep digging. And far as I can see for the waywards that stick around and share their journeys, it almost always IS a deeper issue than just 'selfish asshole'.

Maybe that is true in your case, or maybe it's truer for one gender over the other, I don't know. But as a BS, I can tell you that particular 'why' wouldn't have flown with me for a second. Cus I've had times in my life I'm a self-centered bitch too - I never cheated and never would.

ETA: To me saying a cheater cheated cus they could is akin to saying an alcoholic is an alcoholic because they like the taste of beer. I mean, yes, that's probably factually accurate. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the majority of alcoholics are alcoholics because of a score of other reasons aside from the taste.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 12:39 PM, July 8th (Wednesday)]

hikingout posted 7/8/2020 13:00 PM

Ellie - I tend to agree.

I think maybe the differentiation Dee and Rio were making is more one type of cheater might be more easily curable than one that is more broken beyond repair type. I think anything is possible with a dedicated WS.

I was probably more the asshole category. When I unwound my whys, I learned how I got to be an asshole. So, those were things like not holding my boundaries, not holding my happiness as important as everyone else's around me, building up resentment from not communicating and making assumptions of what was expected of me. I was numbing myself because I was miserable, and the person who made me miserable was ME.

So, those conditions I can watch and be more mindful of so that I am managing myself better and doing a better job of using better coping strategies.

When you think of FOO, that's more how did I make myself comfortable while I was being an asshole? There are strategies we learn from FOO that allow us to avoid, ignore, deny, etc. I think that's why we resemble teenagers when we are having the affair. Because, we are reverting back to the strategies we used in FOO.

And finally, I think that you have to change your belief system. I think cheating parties do not have a strong belief against cheating. And it's probably something they are not cognizant of. But when push comes to shove, they will do it because it feels good and that is not as hard of a boundary as it is for someone who doesn't. (I know common sense) Usually we tend to just have a strong belief of what they would do if someone cheated on them or we don't like seeing a friend treated badly, but that's the end of the thought process.

So, those are my two cents on the topic. I am a recovering asshole

I also have to say, it is evident this discussion has evolved greatly over some of the other times it was held. That's nice to see.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:16 PM, July 8th (Wednesday)]

cheatstroke posted 7/12/2020 11:07 AM

Oops, wrong thread.

[This message edited by cheatstroke at 11:08 AM, July 12th (Sunday)]

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