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Fantasy Deprived the BH, Delivered to the AP

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ToastedOats posted 7/4/2020 07:41 AM

Sorry my last post was so wordy.
To sum it up.

If r is a gift, that a wwp must earn from the bs , why wouldn't anything within reason that was freely given bot be willfully offered to the bs?

When we ,my wife and I, were in this position together, there was nothing non destructive that I wouldn't do when I wanted so desperately to build a new relationship. She felt the same. It takes alot of imagination to keep any relationship healthy.


Hmm heres an easy example?
A wife wore thongs for the ap, after years of denying the bs the pleasure of modeling them for him becuase they make her feel cheap? So when the bs asks her to wear one to ed and she says no.. sorry they make am feel cheap and remind me.of him... er? She cant say give me some time and let me find something that I haven't touched , or come to vs to pick one out with me? Lingerie is a mild but where does it end? Why doesn't the conversation of "I need, to feel safe, to not feel you are compartmentalized certain sexual acts with the AP, that you explore and share those with me (bs) in a way that's healthy for our relationship." Count as positive?

[This message edited by ToastedOats at 7:54 AM, July 4th (Saturday)]

cocoplus5nuts posted 7/4/2020 07:59 AM

the BH finds himself resenting the fact that his WW gave the AP something he himself has long desired, knowing that if he stays with his WW, he can never experience.

This dinged in my brain. It made me think of something possibly similar for me. I had a discussion just yesterday with my H about how he took away my chance of having that special love, of feeling like I am completely loved and accepted just as I am by at least one person.

I thought I had found that with my H. Turned out he didn't know me at all. Without knowing me, he couldn't really love and accept me. When he finally opened his eyes to the real me, he rejected me. He turned away from me and toward someone else. Now, no matter how much he says and tries to show me that he loves and acceptsmeas I am right now, I won't believe it 100%.

Idk. Now that I've written that out, it doesn't seem so similar. 🤷‍♀️

May I ask why this particular issue is the most important to some? Why do you feel so emasculated by it? Have you all thought about why you feel that way? Is it a societal thing? Do you think it's intrinsic?

Sisoon mentioned a few possibilities. Fear is usually the base feeling from which these types of feelings come. I agree with OIN that you can't feel emasculated unless you allow it. If you feel that way by what your CW did, then D is probably the only healthy option for you.

ToastedOats posted 7/4/2020 08:00 AM

@timewarp. Can you live with that? Do you think, if she contiunes to deny you, will you grow frustrated?
As a bs, do you not feel that part of that denial led to the betrayal in the fist place?

ToastedOats posted 7/4/2020 08:10 AM

@cocoplus5nuts

I think you get it, it doesn't seem that different to me. I think the step further would be if your wh kept denying you that special love? While in your case, a ONS would qualify that. How would that make you feel if he kept having ONS? It would be a deal breaker no? It's a denial to the fundamental core of the foundation of your marriage.

In think most of us who have stayed have to decide if anything is denied (sexual or otherwise) would it make it feel worth it or a special love?

timewarp posted 7/4/2020 08:20 AM

@toastedoats. Great question. My wife is intimacy anorexic at times and full of shame all the time - she is working on it for sure but it is a slow process. I’m not sure how our marriage will end up. On my bad days I get very hurt and resentful over this and other things. On better days (more frequent now) I think, Is this a deal killer when I look at the overall picture of improvement. It’s a continued “debate” in my head. Bottom line for me is I continue to work on myself and let my wife know what reconciliation looks like for me. It’s her choice whether she wants to be a man who loves her despite her “warts”. She has the same opportunity to love me with all my “warts” also. If we can both line up our needs then maybe we have a shot. I gave up a year ago excessively worrying about her “recovery” - mine is a full time job! Nothing like catching your wife 4 times with a man after Dday to kick start your personal journey to “enlightenment”

To healing.

Candyman66 posted 7/4/2020 08:21 AM

Once more into the fray. Ladies what we are hearing from our WW's is this; "I told YOU that I won't do that and those are MY boundaries and that's ALL you are getting.

So usually disappointed but we can actually LOVE a woman enough that we WILL accept somewhat less in the sex department than we might think was optimum.

HOWEVER when she then goes and has NO boundaries with the AP and comes back and say's that the ORIGINAL boundaries still stand for ME. WELL that is just a flat no longer acceptable answer.

What we are hearing is it's NOT a boundary it's OBVIOUSLY just her boundary with ME!!!

To me sex is the MOST INTIMATE way a woman tells us how much she LOVES us!! What she is telling us is she will ALWAYS put his desires ABOVE ours!

It is a different view of sex (and relationships) that a woman has than a man has.

I once read on an infidelity site (promoting the idea of infidelity) from a WW and she said "I'll never tell my husband what happened BECAUSE some men get the full menu and some don't and he doesn't"! The whole reason she gave for never telling was "because my husband would want that and it's NOT FOR HIM"!!! That statement by an ACTIVE WW has SOLIDIFIED my resistance to accepting less sexually than the AP got.

The idea that I am degrading my WW by simply asking for what I will accept from MY WW sexually after the affair after doing all of it for him is, in my opinion, BULL SHIT!! If she gave it away freely to then come back to me and have the gaul to tell me that "It's just not available for YOU" is brazen beyond belief!!

Now to be honest there was a very respected WW on here that was kind enough to explain why it was important to her to "Not repeat the kind of sex that was the affair. She explained that she had been degraded by her AP and it just wasn't healthy to continue down that road. I actually AGREED with her that in her case that simply was not an option. However I also told her that her BH was a lot stronger than me. While I would not have forced that kind of sex on her that without being able to "overwrite the experience in her memory" I would have to divorce.

So what we have here is that we insist on requesting the experience and are consistently being denied. We are NOT trying to degrade our WW's, we are desperately trying to re-establish a "balance" that has been shattered!! What we get is pushback from BW's about "how abusive WE are.

What we see is that our WW's actually want and like the experience just NOT WITH US. So when we get that answer we simply can't UNDERSTAND how she claims she "loves" us but others "get the good stuff".

So yes the ultimate resolution is divorce but at the time WE STILL LOVE OUR WW's and it takes us awhile bitching about this particular pain to actually get to the point of filing divorce papers. When we are denigrated for bitching about this we get dismissed by many (not all but many) BW's! Well it just ADDS TO THE PAIN!

And yes this was also part of what happened to me.

JMO YMMV

[This message edited by Candyman66 at 8:37 AM, July 4th (Saturday)]

Carissima posted 7/4/2020 08:40 AM

Here's the thing I truly don't understand about this subject.
Do you really want the act without the desire?
I mean are you really be happy if your WW is going through the motions but doesn't really want you sexually? If it's a ticking the boxes type thing. Sure you may get the sexual act but what does it prove if there's nothing behind it, if it's a mechanical act?

Rideitout posted 7/4/2020 08:41 AM

May I ask why this particular issue is the most important to some? Why do you feel so emasculated by it? Have you all thought about why you feel that way? Is it a societal thing? Do you think it's intrinsic?

Can't answer for "some", but for myself. This is what was "taken" from me during the A. And frankly, this is what I sacrificed to marry my wife; I "agreed" to a very limited lackluster sexual relationship which was, as I was told at the time "part of the deal" with her. It's just who she "was". I gave up years of sex that I really wanted because that's "who she was" and I was willing, although sad, to make that sacrifice.

Now, fast forward to the A, what did the OM actually "get" that I wanted. Well, you could say attention, caring, love, romance; but, I never really felt an absence of those things. Sure, I could have "more", and I guess, in some ways, I was annoyed that I didn't get "it all", but to be honest, it wasn't something I was missing in my relationship with my W. I just didn't/don't have much need for those things, they aren't that important to me, knowing that she had "more to give" in those areas was, well, interesting, but not terribly upsetting. I knew she had more to give there, it just wasn't something I much cared for.

A bit of an aside here, but I often think if I had an A, and my wife asked the sexual details, the situation would be similar. Great, you had anal sex, threesomes, and sex 4 times a day. Good for you, she never wanted those things anyway, so it wasn't something that I expect she'd be all that angry about. I can't picture her saying "well, get over here and do that with me, right now"; while perhaps a good plot for a porn movie, it's just not something that I think she would ever say. She's always known, if she wants more, it's there for her to ask for. Nothing is denied her sexually, any fantasy, any act; just ask. But she might say I deny her a lot emotionally, I'm closed off and quiet, I don't like to talk about my emotions (and she does) and I've very logical and factual when we discuss an issue. So I think she would be VERY upset by me being more emotional with an OW because it's something she wants and "cannot have" from me.

Why so emasculated? Well, because it's a pretty darn clear statement that the other man is "better than you" in some way. Better in bed, better at convincing her to do something new, better at seduction. I don't think "emasculated" is really the right word, it's more "outdone", or "shown up" that probably describes it better.

I guess it's a "societal thing". But I don't think it's some male agenda or anything like that. It's pretty universal across cultures and the reason for that comes down to biology; for pretty much all of recorded history, women have always decided if sex will happen and, if so, what acts will be permitted during that sexual encounter. yes, I know, there are instances of women saying "Please let me swallow for you" and men denying it to them, but, can we all agree, those are vanishingly rare compared to women who's partners would like some sexual act but she is not interested/open to it? And, if you want to go further, "why" women have the power of if/when sex will happen, it comes down to a mix of biology (men, in aggregate, have significantly more desire for sex; women, in general, pay more of a price for sex, easier to get STD and pregnancy, of course; coupled with societal forces women are shamed for having sex with lots of men where men are praised.

Yes, I think a lot of that is intrinsic. Perhaps the societal stuff you could change some day, but it would be a very different world than it is today. The reason that men are "studs" for having sex with lots of women is simple, because it's HARD to do. Because of it's difficulty, it conveys status and value. For the situation to reverse, it would have to be a world where it was HARD for women to have sex with men and laughably easy for men to find new partners. There are ways it could happen, sex could be difficult for women to come by if new technologies are developed that are "better than sex" for men, but, even then, I'm not sure it would ever be easier for a man to have sex than a woman.


Candyman66 posted 7/4/2020 08:52 AM

Carissim; the answer is a resounding NO!! We want the enthusiasm and more than HE got!! If she can't convince me that it is important for her to "RECLAIM" me than GTFO!

If she doesn't put the effort in than to me she is simply "NOT ALL IN" and so a divorce is much preferred BUT we want to give this woman, who ripped our heart out and then shit in our chest, a chance to show us that WE are more IMPORTANT to her than he was! If she can't or won't (most likely the later) then she has to go. WHY? Because we "LOVE" her (at least at this point we think we do) and don't want to lose her.

Anyway this is a man's problem and what we post here is what we WANT WW's to read. We want them to know just how IMPORTANT this is to BH's!!! Why? so that they can be proactive in this situation. Maybe they will actively work to fix this problem BEFORE it ends their marriage.

JMO YMMV

Rideitout posted 7/4/2020 09:05 AM

HOWEVER when she then goes and has NO boundaries with the AP and comes back and say's that the ORIGINAL boundaries still stand for ME. WELL that is just a flat no longer acceptable answer.

Honestly, I almost would go a step further than that. I really don't care what she did with the AP, if the original boundaries are in place and it's grating on the BS, it's flat out no longer acceptable (and if he/she did it with the AP, it's like nuclear level NOT ACCEPTABLE). My reasoning for this is pretty simple. If you put out a spectrum of sexual behaviors from least to most kinky, with least being "holding hands" or "kissing", what belongs on the "most" side? Well, we often focus on a few things, swallowing, anal sex, etc. But what's really on the "most" side? Well, of course, it's stuff like partner swapping, open relationships, orgies, etc. Guess what? That's what an A is! It's partner swapping without informing your partner (or letting them pick another one). It's so far up the "kink" scale that it's hard for us even to realize it lives on the spectrum, but it does (and if you don't believe it, search cuckold on any porn site).

"I had an affair, but I won't go down on you because it's too kinky" is already a ridiculous statement, the affair is FAR kinkier than any act 2 people can do together.

"I had an affair, went down on her, but won't on you because".. Let me stop you right there, there is no "because". It's beyond unacceptable straight into "believing in unicorns and pot of gold under rainbows" territory.

I once read on an infidelity site (promoting the idea of infidelity) from a WW and she said "I'll never tell my husband what happened BECAUSE some men get the full menu and some don't and he doesn't"! The whole reason she gave for never telling was "because my husband would want that and it's NOT FOR HIM"!!!

And this is really the "unsaid" thing here. And any WW or WH has a right to whatever sexual acts they want. But the unsaid thing is, of course, this; I simply liked him/her better, he/she made me hornier and I wanted to give them more than I do you. And we all do this, to some extent, the more attracted we are to someone, the more that person will get from us both emotionally and sexually. Simply put, rating someone's love on what they are willing to do with you sexually, especially when compared to what they have done with others (as compared to just the full spectrum of possible human sexual activity) has basis in reality. We all know it does, we've all had that experience where we were kissing someone and thought "this person isn't turning me on, I'm not going to sleep with them" but, if they DID turn you on, you would have. I'm certainly guilty of that, and, to put a fine point on it, if I wasn't that attracted to a woman, it was likely I wouldn't give her oral sex. Sure, sure, by all means, disparage away, but before you throw the bricks, please really examine your own actions to see if you've not done the same thing in the past. This guy is good enough to give a HJ too, but not good enough to sleep with. Or "he'll do for now, but no way I'm getting really kinky with him, I'm just not that into him". Summing it up, just because I'm having sexual contact with someone, doesn't mean that I find them as exciting/attractive/alluring as every other sexual partner. And the more excited I am by an individual, the more varied the activities offered. That, in way too many words, is the crux of the problem.

I mean are you really be happy if your WW is going through the motions but doesn't really want you sexually? If it's a ticking the boxes type thing. Sure you may get the sexual act but what does it prove if there's nothing behind it, if it's a mechanical act?

In a word, "no". But how will you ever know? If my W claims to like it and want to do it now, do I take her at face value? She obviously liked it with the AP, they did it all the time, right? What you're saying is true, but unknowable, there's simply no way to figure out is this "real or not". And that applies for really all sexual encounters, my WW had no reason to "tick all the boxes" with the AP, but she did. I'm sure he thought it was real, but, to hear her tell the story, it wasn't, she just wanted him to keep paying attention to her. So, how on earth will you ever know, affair or not, if the person your sleeping with wants to do this, or if they want something else they think they can get by doing this? I have no idea, and, frankly, it's the hangup that I still have years after the affair. Is sex for kibbles any different than sex for money? I'm really not sure anymore.

Anyway this is a man's problem and what we post here is what we WANT WW's to read. We want them to know just how IMPORTANT this is to BH's!!! Why? so that they can be proactive in this situation. Maybe they will actively work to fix this problem BEFORE it ends their marriage.

Exactly this. I would have a lot less, perhaps no issue anymore if my W had just read this, internalized the message and done it together with me after the A. Most of my residual damage comes from this particular issue and having to basically issue an ultimatum that I wasn't going to live knowing that if I wanted to know how my W enjoyed this particular sex act the way to find out was to call up the AP and ask him. Nope, that was unacceptable, and while making it a requirement of R did work, it really shot the legs out from me in a lot of ways, including my enjoyment of any sex. But I had no options, it was ultimatum or D. And perhaps we can argue that D was/is the better solution, but, what's even BETTER is to never put the BS in that situation and offer up whatever it was that you did in the A freely; sexual, gifts, emotional, whatever, before they have to make it a "must have".

[This message edited by Rideitout at 9:11 AM, July 4th (Saturday)]

WalkinOnEggshelz posted 7/4/2020 09:10 AM

You know what's so offensive about these threads?... it's that women are objectified as sex acts. Their sexuality is valued as commodity with this act being rated as more valuable/meaningful than that one.

Putting in my 2 cents on this one as a member.

I imagine that as a BS it must be confusing to understand hearing that the sex had nothing to do with you, it was only about receiving the ego kibbles. Only to turn it around and say that sex is not and should not be valued as commodity.

I can tell you from my own personal experience that it took me an affair, an incredible amount of self reflection, a lot of internal dialogue, and open honest communication with my BH to realize that I am allowed to enjoy the pleasures of sex with him, just for the sake of pleasure alone. Looking back, sex had always had some sort of currency attached to it in some way shape or form.

I think it would be a rare WS that would tell you that there was no currency involved in the sexual relationship with the AP. Sexual acts result in more of the validation, ego kibbles, etc, the filling of the empty bucket. Many WS feel they need to keep drawing new lines in the sand to keep that validation coming. That is currency. For those that are not WS, maybe they have duty sex, or give that BJ because their husband has been great with the kids or helped around the house. That is currency. Maybe they are withholding sex because they don’t approve of the husband’s behavior. That is also currency.

I think if many women are really honest with themselves, they will find that at some point in their life that sex has been used as currency in some way. I think it’s rare to find women that don’t have sexual hang ups and know how to be open and free with their bodies as they see fit.

Societal and religious norms and pressures can make how we view sexual relationships very limiting. Add in sexual abuse and the Me Too movement, it has become a very charged subject. In order to get to a healthy place regarding sex in general, we have to be willing to open our minds and listen to what the other person is saying. Listening has to go both ways.

I feel like threads like these are an attempt for the BH’s to be vulnerable, trying to open up regarding an aspect of the affair that is rather painful, and then getting shot down telling them how wrong it is to feel that way. Sure, some have an agenda, I get that, but it keeps coming back for a reason. I don’t think it’s to objectify women.

OwningItNow posted 7/4/2020 09:25 AM

I am not bothered by a BH feeling hurt because of this sexual dismissal and deciding it is a dealbreaker. Some things are too much and can't be fixed, and the couple should D. Nobody here tries to force any BS into accepting the unacceptable.

Many times, however, the BS does not want to D, and then there's a fine line between the tone of a request and a demand in addressing this issue. Demands have no place in a sexual relationship. Ever. But requests are always appropriate. If the request is denied or agreed to unenthusiastically, a BH is free to pursue a D just like any of the rest of us.

This issue is like all others, just never use the word "demand" when talking about someone else's body. Unless you are comfortable hearing someone talk that way about your daughter's or sister's body.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:26 AM, July 4th (Saturday)]

timewarp posted 7/4/2020 09:29 AM

@Carissim. Maybe an illustration can help. My 16-year-old daughter asked her mother why she had an affair for three years. My wife responded I don’t know. My daughter said was daddy not good to you? No. Did he treat you badly? No. Did he not provide enough for us so you could stay at home and raise us? No. Then mommy why did you cheat on him? My wife exacerbated said I don’t know honey… I don’t know.
There are just some things that We all have to just accept that they are what they are. Yes, there probably is a minority of men who would not feel this way but IMHO they are few and far between. So yes they’ll probably be a betrayed male who will chime in and say something different but as you can tell from this thread, it is very sensitive subject to almost all betrayed men. So to answer your question why? It simply is what it is. Even if you or any other person accepts it or not, it’s still is what it is. Just like no can truly figure out the “why’s” of an affair that are fully acceptable to both sides, this is the same thing. It simply is what it is.

Now, the real question (again IMHO) to the unfaithful is what are you going to do with this information? Continue to ask why or build up walls around this fact. Or accept it and try to build from this fact to heal/reconcile. Remember, the betrayed has to accept she/he will never fully understand why, they just have to accept it as reality and press forward in their healing.

To healing.

ToastedOats posted 7/4/2020 09:31 AM

@ timewarp

I do agree. It always comes down to the individual persons need. Thank for your prompt reply. Listening to you, if your ww decides she just doesnt want that becuase it's not good enough for her to you, I find that unfair. But as you said this is about your healing.

@carissima

Here's the thing I truly don't understand about this subject.
Do you really want the act without the desire?
I mean are you really be happy if your WW is going through the motions but doesn't really want you sexually? If it's a ticking the boxes type thing. Sure you may get the sexual act but what does it prove if there's nothing behind it, if it's a mechanical act?

Let's relate to a non sexual act then. You clean up your wife's trash for years. Shes a total slob and she does not clean up after herself and just leaves her trash on the floor. You keep asking her to cleaning up, but she just wont. You overhear her ap one day say she walks in and jumps on all fours and cleans up all the trash, I dont even have to ask. Ouch. Well she comes home and asks for r. You condition r with, please pick up your trash around the floor. I mean promptly or I am leaving. Well she answers it's not from my heart, its mechanical, you want me to fake it? I don't think it's the actual sexual act but the attitude of the denial. Its more often from my experience of other couples, (and my own affair partner)the wayward has this attitude to entitlement which led to the affair on the first place. I feel from my experience as a mad hatter ( ... I hate that label I choose from my own actions) any wayward must give 110% there is no entitlement in a marriage but a loving serving attitude for each other. You find ways to make it enjoyable, even if you open your eyes and say I doing this because I love you, can we find a way to make it enjoyable for the both of us. What part of that is mechanical?

Which brings me too @candyman and Rideitout.

My ap, a woman was interested in her empowerment, and with no regards for the feelings or welfare of her husband. It was about her. I feel when when they dent their betrayed it's just another from of wayward empowerment. So then why shouldn't a wayward try to out their bh/bs in a position where the betrayed feels empowered to love them back? I agree fully.

Cari. I do not mean that it has to happen right away. As timewarp pointed it out it for some it takes time to get over the guilt and shame.. but it should be with the intention of exploring those things with the betrayed. In timewarps case, I wonder to myself if she wasn't intimately anorexic with the AP and can't show those feelings to him (bh) will that relationship last even if she wants it? Do we tell our kids to do their hw even I'd they don't want becuase we are cruel? No because we love them, not because we want to lord it over them (for most).

Okokok posted 7/4/2020 10:13 AM

It is a different view of sex (and relationships) that a woman has than a man has.

Anyway this is a man's problem

To a man this is one of the most IMPORTANT and PAINFUL

this tends to be a male issue

I totally hear what some guys are saying here, but I'd be careful to not overgeneralize this as an intrinsically male issue. It's really, really not. I just don't think it's the right way to look at what happens to you/us. These things *come from* somewhere, and it's not just because you're a male animal.

Absolutely it's an issue, though. Know that. Of course it is. It's obvious and you're not crazy to think or feel this way or to explore yourself/this issue.

If you've ever had a truly fantastic and healthy sexual relationship, you realize pretty quickly that there is no "different view of sex" between men and women on a fundamental level.

It's really just not the case. When it comes right down to it, there is certainly some objectifying involved in sex, yep. But when it's all done well, both partners value the other's body in the same way, though of course in different ways unique to the relationship. Not in a binary way that applies to all people.

Still, do I think it's possible or even probable that, on the whole, men tend to feel the "sting" of their partner's body/sex with the AP worse than women do? Sure, I guess, understanding that there is still a spectrum on which both men and women can find themselves scattered throughout.

I just think it's important to realize where that comes from. It's not just fundamentally animal. It's not just the way things are. It comes from a bajillion and one things you and I learned and were subjected to over a long period of time, starting when we were little boys. No joke.

Women are subjected to the same types of things starting at the same age.

Then we all end up fully matured with all kinds of sexual hangups, wondering what the hell it all means! Even with a lifetime of hard work, we probably can't dismantle or understand it all. But we can work really hard to understand it and make progress, having great sex all along the way.

It really, really, really makes sense to feel that awful sting of "losing" something sexual to the AP, wanting to "get it back" from WS, and struggling with how that works or even the reality of it, honestly. I totally get it, and again, you're not crazy!

Not to be super crude, but it's way more complicated than WW giving anal to AP and now she has to do it for you, too. You know, to "even things out." Sorry guy, that won't solve your problem even if it happens. That's a wound you have to put a different type of salve on.

What *will* solve your problem to the greatest degree possible is working this out, both individually and with your partner. You can do it in bed, you can do it in conversation, you can do it in therapy. You can read books, work on yourself physically and psychologically, even talk to a doctor, even get meds.

It sounds almost like a cliche at this point on a thread like this, but it's a really important concept: her body really is hers and not yours. Always was, never wasn't. This thing really *isn't* about her body and how it's used with AP or you or anyone else. That *really* is her choice, every day, every time. AP or not. Never is it yours, and never should she be expected to use it in the way you want but she doesn't (of course, I know you know that on an intellectual level, but sometimes we can internalize these things regardless). That's bad sex, and a bad understanding of what sex really is. Won't help you.

It has WAY more to do with how you have come to perceive her body/sexuality and what it means to you personally. You're not wrong to value these things (I sure as hell value them in a partner), but just know it's about you and you can't expect her to submit to things that are only about you. You can communicate about it and ask for it, sure, but ultimately you've got to work that out for yourself.

If you put that work in, you absolutely can get to that fundamentally human place where you howl at the moon, feel the drumbeat of a thousand ancestors, "claim" what is yours, leave her in a puddle of ecstasy, and take your place as king of the world if only in your own heart. You can do it.

But *you* have to do it. And while you have to do it with her, you won't get there simply by demanding a sex act or being frustrated when you don't get it. It has to be way, way, way better than that.

~

I'm all over the place this morning. Hope some/any of this made some sense.

[This message edited by Okokok at 11:21 AM, July 4th (Saturday)]

HeHadADoubleLife posted 7/4/2020 10:17 AM

^^^ This!

GoldenR posted 7/4/2020 10:22 AM

Do you really want the act without the desire?

Doesn't apply to me anymore bc my real wife rocks. But I was put through false R, so I'll address it.

What it boils down to so many times in these threads is whether or not we should ask for the acts and/or make R conditional on them.

The BWs tell us it's coercion and rapey. While some WWs say "Hell yes, you should tell her! Give her the option to decide!"

leavingorbit posted 7/4/2020 10:37 AM

Wow, Okokok, thank you for a really thoughtful post!

FWW/MH here and the following is JMO. This is a very fraught subject. So many filters and wounds brought to the table. My husband and I have found the most success with owning whatever our individual issue is completely: no blame, no comparison, no justification. Total vulnerability. “I would like this, would you be willing to do that?” Or sometimes even, “I think I want this and I’m pretty sure it’s because of this, would you...?”

It’s hard. It’s not always successful: triggers happen, on both sides. Then we unravel and piece together and start again.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking. We found very limited success in our mutually lifelong habit of demands, which I think of as asks with qualifiers. What we want doesn’t need to come with blaming or judgment. For me, saying, “you owe me,” was really saying, “please, I’m so deeply scared that I am worthless, because your answer determines my worthiness, so I will phrase this as a demand or coercively or blame it on your behavior, as a better means to protect myself.”

But what I want and what my husband wants are individual things that are not dependent on the other. If he says no, it’s nothing to do with me and vice versa. My worthiness comes from inside. And if we didn’t want to meet each other’s desires, we wouldn’t be married.

None of this is to say that we can’t examine the things we want and be responsible for a higher awareness of those items. My husband talks a lot about how sex was socialized for him and what makes it a safe environment. Me, too. We’re both CSA survivors and I was sexually trafficked as a teen and then into adulthood. I don’t believe sex or people exist in vacuums. I also don’t believe that finger pointing or generalizations are helpful.

So much pain and fear here. I hope everyone finds some peace today.

sisoon posted 7/4/2020 11:21 AM

There are a couple of things that bother me about this sort of thread. First, I hate double standards, and framing the question in terms of BHes and WWs creates a double standard. I hate double standards more passionately than I hate over-generalizations. In arguments, all you have to do is hint that I'm arguing for a double standard, and I collapse.

*****

Second, as OIN and DF write, some posts are from people who want R, want something specific in sex, aren't getting it, and they just stay stuck. They blame their Ws for being stuck, but they are responsible for their own stuckness, and they seem unwilling or unable to accept that. I hate to see people stuck, since they have all the tools they need to get unstuck. Remember:

D on’t
E ven
T hink
A bout
C hanging
H im/er

Change your self-talk. Get help if you aren't having success on your own. And get yourself unstuck - grieve the loss of what you want, and start living your life again.

I'm not saying it's wrong to feel that way. It's normal. But staying stuck does a massive disservice to oneself. We all deserve to be kind to ourselves. We all deserve to treat ourselves well emotionally.

*****

Third, 'emasculation' generally gets into these discussions. I get it. I was a BH. Again, the emasculation comes from self-generated messages. The only cure - the ONLY cure - is to change the messages. Having an RA or getting a D and dating will not cure a sense of emasculation. You've got to change the messaging. (I expect that changing the messaging will make a person more attractive to potential sex partners.)

Again, the sense of being emasculated is normal. It's awful. But it's a lie in the vast majority of cases. Sure, you may have trouble with sex after finding out you've been betrayed, but it's likely to be temporary, and there IS help available.

Recovering from being betrayed requires honesty. Emasculation is a lie we've been taught to tell ourselves. All of us can replace that lie with truth.

*****

Fourth,

stuff the AP gets, the BH should get
Well, I'd change that to 'stuff the AP gets and the BH wants, the BH should get.'

I'm pretty sure that's the wrong way to R. I think what R requires is this:

1) the BS defines what they want;
2) the BS informs the WS;
3) the WS gives the BS what they want or negotiates a mutually satisfactory alternative.

The M that gets built in R has to be, IMO, a partnership that serves all partners. That's the only way R will work, again IMO. (If both partners want a patriarchal or matriarchal or open or polygamous or polyandrous M, that's the type of M to build.)

The A is a lousy model for the M. IMO, a BS is better off thinking about what they really want than if they limit their thinking to what the ap got.

*****

Fifth, I have, I think, wide knowledge of things BSes and WSes go through after d-day - wide, but only a nanometer deep, if that. I have deep knowledge of one case of infidelity. One! Most of us have deep knowledge of one case, though some of us unfortunately have more.

I believe my W belongs to a set of WSes who get into As because they hate themselves, but they like to think of themselves as people who can help others. They get into As as KISAs. Of course, since they're not authentic in their As, they bounce around Drama Triangles, now as Rescuers, now as Persecutors, now as Victims.

Asking my W to do stuff that she did in her A too early triggered her into the feelings she felt and the thoughts she thought while in the A. IOW, asking her to do something she did in the A got her into A mode, and I do not see how that could possibly have a positive influence on R.

Not all WSes are like my W, but she's not alone. So I recommend being very careful in formulating generalizations about As, BSes, WSes, aps, etc.

If you have a WS who won't do something you want but did it for the ap and sent messages about loving doing it, I'd say you have a bigger problem than the act.Even so, WSes lie - to the BS and to themselves. There's nothing keeping them from lying to the ap, too.

Each case has to be evaluated on its own. The BS can read about others' experiences, but the BS has to make their own decisions and live ith the consequences.

*****

(thinking about WOEz's post) M as prostitution was one of the attacks made by some late '60-'70s feminists, especially lesbian feminists, IIRC. We were out of the US from mid-'7 to mid-'72. We were M 5 years and had an infant when we came back to the US and picked up Ms magazine and the rest of the US press again.

I cannot express how scared I was. In fact, I now realize I stuffed that fear.

It's just so damned easy to see M as prostitution.... crying But, hey! I'm satisfied with the price I got and the price I paid.... shocked

Rideitout posted 7/4/2020 12:11 PM

But what I want and what my husband wants are individual things that are not dependent on the other. If he says no, it’s nothing to do with me and vice versa. My worthiness comes from inside. And if we didn’t want to meet each other’s desires, we wouldn’t be married.

And that's what I honestly used to think (or made myself believe), my wife saying "no" to certain sexual acts I enjoyed had nothing to do with me. But then she had an A, same exact person (her), the only difference was instead of me, it was the AP, and now all those "no's" became "yes, please". I get what you're saying, people have certain things they enjoy and those they do not and will not ever enjoy. But there's a whole different list of things they enjoy with SOME people and not others. And that's the list that gets brought front and center in this situation, not the "never, no matter what" the "never with you, but happily with someone else" list. The difference isn't her, we were sleeping together regularly throughout her A, before her A and after her A. The difference was the A and the AP, some combination of that was so exciting, alluring, dirty, or some combination of all of them that her "no" became something else. When we're talking about "nevers", I agree with you, but when we're talking about selective "no's", it's pretty clear it has something to do with the other person (because the "right" person gets a yes). Most of us have done this many times in our lives, "Will you go out with me", the "right person" gets a yes, another person a "no". But goddarn right it has to do with those two people, one is more attractive, funnier, sexier, and "better" in the prospective partner's eyes. No, that should not define your self-worth, in fact, one of the first things I learned about women is "get used to rejection", it's pretty much a core tenant if you want to date extensively. You have to learn to not take it an assault to the ego, which, eventually, I learned to do well, but when it's your wife? Or your husband? That's a lot harder to just spackle over and call good.

1) the BS defines what they want;
2) the BS informs the WS;
3) the WS gives the BS what they want or negotiates a mutually satisfactory alternative.

Which is basically what I did, but, let me tell you from experience, it's not the best way to go about it. The best way, BEFORE the BS demands anything, is for the WS to figure out what they need and make it happen. And that applies to all A recovery, disclosure, sex, emotional support, all of it. The moment the BS starts asking or negotiating for things, the authenticity is lost. How are these BS's supposed to figure it out? Well, first, I suggest this type of forum. But, honestly? Come on now, it's NOT that hard and while we always hear "I can't read minds", let's not be obtuse about it. My WW figured out, in the course of 2 weeks, what her AP would like from her sexually, you're telling me she can't do the same with me? And I'm sure many BW's have husbands that suddenly "figured out" how to woo a woman, buy her things, talk sweet to her (or whatever her love language happened to be). Especially with "high sex" BS's, come on, it really seems a bit much to believe that my W (or other WS's) can't figure out "huh, he/she would probably like all the stuff I did with the AP, and maybe even some more". How did my W figure it out with the AP? He never had to ask/demand/negotiate it, she just did it. How did the many WH's out there figure out that romantic little gestures, thoughtful gifts and lots of other things that many a BW is starving for work really well to get underwear off? I'm sorry, it's a bridge to far to think that I have to inform my WW (or, should have had to inform her, which I did, years ago) that this was important and valuable to me.

Asking my W to do stuff that she did in her A too early triggered her into the feelings she felt and the thoughts she thought while in the A. IOW, asking her to do something she did in the A got her into A mode, and I do not see how that could possibly have a positive influence on R.

I think for a lot of people, without this step, R is simply off the table. It was for me. But, even if that's not the case, I really think we're putting FAR too much "victim" into the perpetrator here. "A mode"? I literally don't care one bit, and I know, that probably makes me a bad person, but, this is what you (not you Sisson, my W) brought on yourself? You're "thoughts" and "feelings" that you had during the A were so destructive that bringing them up now is further "damaging" you? I mean, I know what your saying, but.. WS are the aggressors here, they are the ones who caused this damage, and I'm sorry, but after the hell my W wrought on our lives and marriage through her actions, I really wasn't in the mood to hear about her "damage" from it. Was she damaged at all? IDK. None of us every will, it's a good cop out/excuse, but, who the heck knows. What I do know, the men who've shared with me their affair stories, they don't sound "damaged" at all by it, they sound, in fact, pretty s**teating happy about it. And I suspect my wife was pretty much the same during her A. Was she damaged afterwards? Probably, but by her own doing and through her own actions. You don't get to shoot up a building and then cry about your "damage" and get a few years to work it out. You go to prison for the rest of your life, and none of us give a hoot about your FOO/damage or anything else. Now, I do love my wife, and I do want to help her find herself and be happy again, but, "she needs time to heal" after her A was about the last thing I gave any craps about. I was (and all BS's are) the injured person here, not her; and I was injured BY her. If someone intentionally shoots you in the gut and then sits down and starts talking to you about their bad childhood, I'm pretty sure that conversation wouldn't go well. I'm (not anymore, but for a long time I was) bleeding out here and you want to talk about your FOO?! No, and not for a very long time would I even entertain that conversation with her.


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