SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I agree with those who are pointing out being a victim should not be stigmatized. It's only if one becomes stuck in victim mode that it becomes problematic. But if you're a victim in the real world of three dimensions and the space-time continuum because of something bad somebody did to you ... well, hey, you're a victim! Not your fault!

I also second whoever earlier in this thread suggested that maybe this actual thread should be required reading for all WS's who want to grapple honestly with their adultery. This thread has attracted civil dialogue and substantive discussion. And in a time when that's not happening much, I feel encouraged.

Hope everyone has a great weekend.

Thumos

It’s only if one becomes stuck in victim mode that it becomes problematic

For sure. See my profile for the 12 characteristics of survivors, from the book Deep Survival. That’s what you want to shift your focus to ASAP, being a survivor, not a victim.

Love this quote too.

You can make a persuasive case that all your troubles are the fault of others.

You will convince some people.

You might even convince yourself.

Are your troubles now solved?

Interesting thread, I’ve learned some stuff.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 6:24 PM, October 2nd (Friday)]

Well, I really do not have any big troubles now. For a while after d-day, I did( like sleeplessness, losing 47lbs in about 2 months, and financial stuff due to the divorce). But, when I had them, they were clearly attributable to my XW, both her cheating and narcissism.

Nothing wrong with identifying the source.

Then, because I needed to live and eat and have fun again, I started doing those things. Most BS seem pretty resilient.

Now, I could not imagine living with the trainwreck that is my XW. I am grateful she cheated. Got me off my ass and out of that abuse. And, no one blamed me. Even her family stood by me, much to her displeasure.

She very much INTENDED to do this. She saw an opportunity, she wanted it, she thought about the consequences including harm to me, she decided to go for it, she never thought she'd be caught doing it.

Intentionality is a very big deal. It was a key component of our D-Day 2, the disclosure that I hid and minimized all the concrete plans I made for sex with OM, and then depicted that night as something that "just happened" in the moment, without my full and enthusiastic consent.

FWIW, OM really was my only AP. I don't think that should change your course of action, but since I know your views on commingled microbiomes, it may give you some peace to know that lying about intentionality wasn't an indicator of multiple APs in my case.

your views on commingled microbiomes

I mean our bodies are crawling with bacterial communities. It’s not like I’m a germaphobe. We’re as much bacterial communes as anything else.

I just think because it’s recent research and unusual it still has the power to shock people out of complacency around the idea of extramarital unprotected sex. These days in our society that’s essentially about as shocking as a plate of spaghetti.

The idea of commingled genital microbiomes permanently altered and shared with a faithful spouse against their will is something most people don’t know about. When they learn of it, my hope is it at least gives them a moment’s pause and some revulsion — because it should.

WW’s tell BH’s so often some versions of “it didn’t mean anything” — when I learned of the micro biome factoid I thought it was an effective way of pushing back against that notion. Because in fact it meant everything at nearly every level - spiritual, psychological, physical and it turns out even at a microbiology level.

Obviously it works as a splash of cold water.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:40 PM, October 2nd (Friday)]

I hid and minimized all the concrete plans I made for sex with OM, and then depicted that night as something that "just happened" in the moment, without my full and enthusiastic consent.

Sounds familiar. Except my WW won’t even cop to the planning that obviously had to have taken place. At this point it’s just such an exhausting and stupid game and I’m tired of playing it.

For God's sake the cheaters that try to convince their spouses that " it just happened" must think their spouses are incredibly dumb.

It's bad enough to have cheated, but to display further disrespect in this way is terrible.

Do they ever just stop and think how one would have to be a moron to believe this load of shit?

Well, maybe having gaslit so much and observing the confusion they cause the BS, they just figure they married a dumbass.

My Xw once blew in at 4 in the morning and claimed she had locked herself out of the car and it took 3 hours( bars closed at 1) for AAA to get a locksmith there.

She was 10 minutes from our house if she was where she claimed to be. I could have just brought her the spare set.

This is the type of insulting bullshit lies she would tell.

Dare I say I'd love to have wh read this thread.

Having his infidelity "abuse" in same light as rape or physical assault is an eye opener for sure.

The resulting PTSD a BS can go through on top of that.

Every wayward should read it.

Then, because I needed to live and eat and have fun again, I started doing those things. Most BS seem pretty resilient.

I know several divorced BWs that I would not exactly call thriving. They never make it back to what they once were. It's possible, but there are plenty of casualties.

I would look at my own situation and consider it somewhat at risk. I have a GF. I need to do LTR, going solo or casual dating doesn't work that well for me. But I know the statistics on lowered life expectancy of divorced men. I am coming up on that. That sort of long term mental health damage, it's not like you can wake up one day and flip a switch. By the time you get to that point, it's too late.

So when I look at it from the other side, actually being the WS, hardening myself to do all of this shit up and through divorce and family destruction, I don't really feel like saying to these divorced BWs not doing so well, "suck it up, buttercup." Which I think is implied sometimes by the BSes that are in R, because they need to soft pedal infidelity.

Dare I say I'd love to have wh read this thread. Having his infidelity "abuse" in same light as rape or physical assault is an eye opener for sure.

He doesn't care. He is enjoying his choices, it's only you who do not enjoy his choices. Don't bother trying to enlighten (i.e. change) him. He likes how he lives. If you don't like it, you need to change it. (Sorry for the t/j)

I know several divorced BWs that I would not exactly call thriving. They never make it back to what they once were.

Definitely. Healing is not about hiding in a new R, slapping some new paint on your life. Healing is hard and takes real work on your thinking, your beliefs, your attitude. Life is not about what happens; it's about how you handle what happens. And that sh$t is hard work.

I used to think comments like this meant, "Just let it go," and it pissed me off. Then I worked long enough and hard enough on my thought patterns and feelings to realize that we box with our demons, we don't "let them go" (thank god). Every day, every hour, we get in the ring with our hurt and anger and low self-esteem and go round and round. Who will win?

We must train, practice, speed bag, wind sprints, weight lifting, body bag, gotta get light on our feet, agile--it takes a lot of time to get strong and smart enough to KO those dark thoughts and the bitterness. A lot of people train just enough to go three rounds, but bitterness wins. You see it. The BS lives but never thrives. You gotta keep working, learning, growing, confronting until you can KO those inner demons. But it's hard work. And many don't do it. I wish they would.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:40 AM, October 3rd (Saturday)]

Do they ever just stop and think how one would have to be a moron to believe this load of shit?

Well, maybe having gaslit so much and observing the confusion they cause the BS, they just figure they married a dumbass.

No, I never thought that. Contempt was the furthest thing from my mind. I remember praying to the universe that he would accept my minimized story, that he would spare me from having to tell him the unvarnished truth and spare himself having to hear it. He was traumatized by learning that I had cheated, which was as unbelievable to him as me admitting that I was a serial killer. Nothing I was telling him squared with his understanding of reality, even the things that were absolutely true, so why should my lies have seemed any less credible?

I never for one second thought he was a moron or a dumbass. I did think, not having SI to guide me, that we could rebuild by rugsweeping. My presence here indicates how well that worked out.

Just echo others on the stigma of being a "victim", which kind of takes my brain full circle to my 1st post on this thread about the societal views of infidelity and its prominent place in the closet bc of the shame associated with said 'victim' stigma (same as rape, same as physical DV).

Reminds me of changes in rape. It wasn't until folks started calling nonconsensual sex with a nonstranger "date RAPE" that the collective views about it began to change. Only after we stopped sugar coating the actual language used. Only after we began to use words like "victim" for those who were held down by their "date" while screaming no and stop and the rest of it, and not someone who was just playing "hard to get", or was "asking for it" by whatever crazy standard (dress, flirting, hell, I've read of men who claimed she asked for it bc she smiled). Calling it what it IS - whether it's intentional, or whether some folks get stuck in the victim role, or whatever, is important for how a culture will view a thing.

And our culture could sure as hell use an awakening on this front. As we work on "rape culture" why not also inject "infidelity culture" into the vernacular?

The way in which I became a victim is NOT my fault - by any stretch of the imagination. However, it is my responsibility - to myself - to heal from it. My DD has borderline... it's not her fault, but it is her responsibility to be mindful of that Dx and to work on managing it and the ways in which it impacts her life.

I don't for one second believe that folks get stuck in their victim role bc of the language being used to describe their experience. Indeed, I would characterize myself as MORE stuck before I was able to see and accept that I had PTSD... that I had been traumatized, which in turn allowed me to understand that my amygdala had overtaken executive function and was running the damn show and rather than kicking myself for not being able to "control" my symptoms, I needed help and I needed to accept that I had truly been traumatized in a way that I could not ignore. I also needed to accept that my WH is an abuser, whether he "intended" his behavior to be abusive or not.

And speaking of "intent". I had the unique experience of reading my WH's journal after his suicide attempt - when I didn't know he would live and was desperate for some sense of what the fuck happened between me clearing the dinner table and finding him hanging from a rope. That was one boatload of an eye opener about the inner thoughts of a WS. Because it was chockfull of anger and resentment -at me - and things like "I think it was about control". And I believe him. His "little secrets" were something he could - even if only in the mind of himself and his POSOW and other APs - lord over on me. He "had" something on me. I believe he enjoyed that. And I don't believe that kind of thinking is particularly unique. It was (at least for him) about power & control.... like rape. Like physical DV. The difference is I was not aware of it... unlike rape or physical DV, this was something about which he could lie.

And I "get" that many BS quickly turn to "I will not let my WS' and their shitty choices to break their vows make me a victim", and good for them! Whatever is in the baggage they dropped onto the dday table had a good set of something that put them in that headspace. I think that is amazing and wonderful. Yet, for whatever reason, my luggage - and that of MANY other BS - did not happen to pack whatever that particular piece of travelwear is. And that is OK.

I am a victim. My WH is an abuser. IMO them's just the facts, Jack.

It's not my fault, but it is - and forever will be -my responsibility to heal from that and to survive it.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 2:09 AM, October 3rd, 2020 (Saturday)]

It's not my fault, but it is - and forever will be -my responsibility to heal from that and to survive it.

If a BS has a Type A personality, very strong and capable, they will work hard in therapy to allow sympathy, self-love, tears. Embracing the role of victim can be a well-deserved relief from all the "Suck it up, buttercup!" and "You got this!" messages they've gotten all their lives. Allowing themselves a moment in time for hugs and support is critical to their healing. Otherwise, they languish in secret self-criticism or emotional denial that poisons them from the inside out.

But then there's the Type Bs, the more laid back folks who cut themselves a lot of slack in life. Their very chill attitude wins friends and has ready made mental outs for everything that happens. They don't stress, but they also don't empower themselves. These people can live forever in victimhood, offering themselves endless pity but no options for recovery. These are the peeps who need to avoid the "I am a victim" lest they find themselves parked there permanently.

Only we know where we fall on this continuum and where our thinking needs to be. I personally needed to learn to take some down time as the victim. My very Type A self wanted to lie and deny while dying on the inside. Once I gave myself that time and self-soothing, I was ready to start taking my power back. But everyone's personality needs building up in their own unique way. The take away on the abuse will be different while the goal remains the same.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:38 AM, October 3rd (Saturday)]

Well, while we are on the topic of words that seem to have taken on some negative connotation, how about "judgemental"?

Ever go to some site where a lot of cheaters post and point out that their cheating is abusive? You will get the "judgemental" attribution thrown at you as if judging an action is some horrible thing.

Hell, who goes through life not using judgement? Maybe I should hire some Ted Bundy to babysit the kids. Do not want to judge him, after all.

And, then there is " bitter". Wel, yes, I am not a big fan of my XW and I think cheaters suck, for the most part. I have nothing good to say about my X. So, am I bitter, yes, about that.

But, in general, I am pleasant enough. Not waving my cane at kids etc. yelling at them to " get off my land etc."

Seriously, who is not going to have some bitterness about someone cheating on him or her.

I am not a big Willard Harley fan. But, he did claim to have surveyed betrayed spouses that had been raped. He says he also included betrayed spouses who had lost a child.

He claims that virtually every one said getting over the cheating was tougher

.

A couple of days ago and several pages back Stinger posted this. I, too, am not a Harley fan. When I suspected my WW was cheating the advice I got from his website harmed me greatly. How I wish I had found this site in 2003.

What one feels is the greater trauma is up to the one feeling it. I know that my XWW's adultery is the greatest and lasting pain I have ever felt in my long life.

There have been others on SI who concur. I have not been raped or physically abused or lost a child (other than a miscarriage). Before my XWW's adultery I would have said I hadn't been emotionally abused either. I can't compare with the people who've suffered those traumas but others have.

A few years ago on SI there was a woman who had been raped (maybe gang, but I can't remember for sure) as a young woman. Her husband committed adultery. His adultery was much worse. He claimed to love her. Her rapists didn't give a shit about her.

Another woman had found her teenage son after he committed suicide. Her WH's adultery was worse for her.

A military man had been deployed 5 times to the middle east and had severe PTSD. It didn't compare to the PTSD from discovering his WW's adultery.

Another man had intestinal surgery which apparently is very painful with a long recovery (6 or 8 months?, my memory fails). He said he would rather have the surgery every year than have his WW commit adultery.

I can only compare to injuries. I've broken ribs twice, 2 serious concussions, right thumb pulled off, typical arthroscopy knee surgery, left side of face smashed with entire orbital bone broken, cheekbone smashed into sinus with chunks removed and titanium holding everything in place, permanent nerve damage and lingering pain. Not even close to the pain of her adultery singularly or collectively.

What is the worst trauma is individual. Some have had terrible things happen to them and consider the adultery worse and others think it isn't.

Wherever adultery falls in the pain spectrum for the individual it is abuse. Emotional and physical. No betrayed comes out of unaltered in some way

Thumos, I compliment you on the posting you've done on SI. Your stance is well thought out and articulated. I think you generate deeper thinking and reflection with newly betrayed in JFO and with us veterans. I hope you stay around for a while.

Seriously, who is not going to have some bitterness about someone cheating on him or her.

I don't know the answer to this, but how much bitterness is too much bitterness? My answer for myself: any at all. In my view, bitterness robs me of my life, my joy, my desire to feel gratitude and inner peace 100% of the time. I think of life as this finite gift that I have been given, and when I have negative thoughts or feelings I very intentionally work to eliminate them so that my time is experienced fully. I don't want to miss a minute of joy.

I have friends who stew and stew and stew about politics or wrongs done to them or people they still don't like from 20 years ago. Then these friends will say, "But luckily I am a happy person who lets things go." I shrug and think, "If that's happy, I hope to never experience it." They clearly have no clue what happiness is or feels like because nobody wants the version they are selling, but to each his own. They can keep all that anger and bitterness all day long--chew on it morning, noon, and night. But for me, 0% bitterness is an active goal. Bitterness and a light, joyous heart cannot exist at the same time.

I consider subjects that stir my anger, irritation, or bitterness to be areas of weakness that need more work. I'll need to do some more work there to take my power back. I find that reframing them as in need of my pity and compassion and me as the one who is the true winner usually flattens bitterness to the floor.

He doesn't care. He is enjoying his choices, it's only you who do not enjoy his choices. Don't bother trying to enlighten (i.e. change) him. He likes how he lives. If you don't like it, you need to change it. (Sorry for the t/j)

Oh so you can read minds. Cool. You have NO idea how adultery being framed as abuse relative to rape and assault might actually affect someone...

And I only said it would be good reading for him because it had already been suggested.

I also second whoever earlier in this thread suggested that maybe this actual thread should be required reading for all WS's who want to grapple honestly with their adultery

Guess I can compartmentalize it, the bitterness. Or, maybe we define it differently. I do enjoy my life.

It really helped me to realize that it is not possible for me to be happy or at peace all the time. Once I accepted that life is a struggle and the pursuit of happiness vs having meaning in my life is best for me, I guess I am at peace.

My contempt and resentment of my XW does not occupy much space, certainly not enough to interfere with my goals, relationships or enjoyment of life. But, I do have it.