SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think we need to distinguish between 'consent' and 'freely-given consent'.

I can see waking up a partner for sex, if it's an implicit or explicit request for consent. I can't see penetrating a partner who is asleep. A sleeping person can't consent to much of anything.

A person can initially not be in the mood and then freely decide to connect sexually. That isn't rape.

A person who is being abused physically can't give any type of consent. I think we all agree that's rape.

A person who is under threat of physical abuse can't give free consent, IMO. S/he can leave ... but we know it's extremely difficult to leave - in fact, it only appears that people under threat of physical abuse can leave. I think sex in an atmosphere of 'come across, or I'll hurt you', even if the threat isn't voiced explicitly, is rape. There's no free consent in an atmosphere of physical abuse, IMO.

Emotional abuse probably spans a spectrum in which it's easier for the victim to leave or not. I think the facts in a specific case define whether sex is consensual or not, and if not, it's rape, IMO.

I've had a lot of "coerced" sex in my life. Sex when I really didn't feel like. Sex when I was so drunk that I really didn't care who it was (and nearly puked in the morning when I woke up). Sex with my wife when she wants it and I don't.

You describe situations in which 1) you had the ability to choose or 2) you voluntarily gave up your ability to choose. I don;t see any coercion in what you've written.

Sex when you 'really didn't feel like it' isn't coerced sex. Your very words say that you had a choice.

And if you have sex with your W when you don't want to, why don't you say something to her, preferably at the time? Does she get you to have sex by threatening you?

**************************************

I believe that the sexual lives of many couples need to change after d-day. I also believe that it's likely R won't happen unless the WS moves more than half way to what the BS wants sexually.

The new M has to serve both partners. If BS & WS can't agree on what sex - or any other M parameter - will be, they can and probably should D, IMO.

But with sex, and with every other M parameter I can think of, asking for what you want is powerful and empowering. I don't want to be in a relationship in which coercion is a way to resolve disputes or allocate power.

I also believe that it's likely R won't happen unless the WS moves more than half way to what the BS wants sexually.

^^^ this ^^^

violating and destroying intimacy to sucha degree one would think a WS would be the last one to complain about a bit of "duty" for the chance to R and here the OP has suffered a series of abuses that frankly I am amazed he's not nauseated just looking at her

again, the whole thread hints that this WS has been blame-shifting to not own her own stink that if both partners had wanted an honest connection and closeness than there was a healthy way to establish such

Comparing on demand sex, or sex on a BH's terms, to rape is fucking absurd. I am not forcing my WW to do shit. She can leave anytime she wants. If she says no I will stop. I will throw her out, but I will stop. I do not respect her like I did before.

SMS, prissy and others, do you care about your WH's OW? Do you worry her hypothetical BH treats her kindly and with respect? I can guarantee the OBS in my saga doesn't give a single fuck if my WW is treated like a whore, slut, or cumbucket. I no longer use these terms before, during, or after sex. For a time though...

The fucked up thing in my situation was we really didn't have many issues prior to the A. For sure no sex related problems. I always treated her with respect and I never once pressured her for sex. My WW is a member here at SI and she can call bullshit on this if it's wrong.

Is there a way to bring a relationship into true balance?

This is what I think goes on for a while after an A. The balance is shifted to the cheater. The ignore the rules of the game and screw over their partner. Sure, they feel "remorse", need to do some work, got to escape for a time, have a new sex partner. Fun and different was my WW's description of the A. So, now the scale has shifted and I refuse to carry the weight alone. She created the situation, she can fix it.

Catch, what exactly is your WW doing to mend things? What is in the M for you?

SFTK....

The OW is irrelevant. And be clear...if my husband told me her forced her in anyway...

His ass would be divorced and deposited at the nearest police station.

Merida...

She is a PERSON who does not to have sex with someone who has been verbally abusive in the past. And she doesnt have to. So she subject herself to unwanted swx in order to stay married...

Fuck that noise. She is damaged enough. If thats a requirement of R then she should leave. Anyone should.

Im a betrayed wife...so I should junk punch my husband whenever i want because that's how I want to feel close to him?

Comparing on demand sex, or sex on a BH's terms, to rape is fucking absurd. I am not forcing my WW to do shit. She can leave anytime she wants. If she says no I will stop. I will throw her out, but I will stop. I do not respect her like I did before.

Thank for some sanity in this thread.

And if you have sex with your W when you don't want to, why don't you say something to her, preferably at the time? Does she get you to have sex by threatening you?

Because I love her, and I know she's seeking out sex because she loves me. No, she never threatens me directly, but with everything in a relationship, there's always an element of a "threat". Have sex with me on my terms or you won't get it at all. I have said things to her, I'm much more aroused in the morning, she is in the evening. As I'm the HD partner, I'm happy to go in the evening more than she is in the morning, so.. Compromise. But I have sex all the time when I don't feel like it; just like a do a ton of things in my marriage to keep it happy and healthy when I don't feel like it. Sex happens to be one of those things that I don't feel like, but, when I do it, I'm always happy I did. Kind of like going to the gym, I don't always feel like it, but I'm always happy that I did.

@stayedforthekids

If she says no I will stop. I will throw her out, but I will stop

This ^^^ is where it is sexually abusive. But, since you don't want to look deeply within yourself, I doubt you will see or acknowledge that.

[This message edited by onlytime at 6:51 PM, May 21st (Sunday)]

This ^^^ is where it is sexually abusive. But, since you don't want to look deeply within yourself, I doubt you will see or acknowledge that.

Perhaps. Actually, I'd agree, it's a bit on the abusive side. Just like it's sexually abusive for a wife to withhold sex for no reason from her husband. Or use sex to get something that he/she wants.

I'm there with you. Where I go completely off the rails is where we start talking about rape. This isn't rape. I could tell my wife that I was going to do all manner of F'ed up things to her every night for the rest of our marriage, painful, degrading things that she doesn't want to do. Guess what? If she stays and agrees to them, no matter how much she doesn't want to, it's not rape. Was her consent forced? Well, perhaps, because, in this imaginary example, I'm telling her it's crazy sex or the highway, so there's a choice, but each of them has negative consequences.

Sex is no different than anything else. Let's just talk about married sex here for a minute. OK, you don't feel like it. But, what's the worst that's gonna happen? Maybe you tear a bit. Maybe I can't get hard and I'm embarrassed? Maybe one/both of us are sore in the morning or pull a hamstring (little comedy there for a very dour topic).

Now let's look at a typical relationship, the OTHER things that we do for one another. Let's say one partner has a very dangerous job. You think he/she "wants" to do that? And what's the worst that happens? You die. End of the line. But it's what you do to make money so that your spouse can live a better life. People spend 90% of their lives doing things they don't want to do, most of that directed at making their spouse/children or other people happy. Why in the heck is that OK, but having sex with your husband/wife when you're not really in the mood not OK? I'm sorry, but marriage means exclusive access to one person sexually, and both people have a responsibility entering into that relationship to try to satisfy the other. Yes, the means the HD partner (typically the man) will be making "demands". Just like the partner that enjoys shopping more will be making "demands" there. Or the partner who enjoys cars more will be making "demands" to spend more money on them. Yes, I realize it's different, but, end of the day, it's the ONLY thing you really cannot get from another person entering a marriage, if you're really that incompatible, you should never marry. Which means that most people should not be married, because most men are dramatically higher drive than most women (compare gay vs lesbian sexual frequency/habits for a great eye opener on how different the drives really are).

@sftk

do you care about your WH's OW? Do you worry her hypothetical BH treats her kindly and with respect?

1. He (BH) is dead.

2. He divorced It before he died.

3. It is an unremorseful, slunty, twatty cumdumpster who feels It was somehow a victim in the LTA. if It was mistreated by Its BH I wouldn't care. But, I would think it was wrong.

4. I don't worry about It at all.

@Rideitout you have no idea what my opinion is about ODS being akin to rape because I didn't give my opinion about that. What I did say was your opinion is not the truth nor factual.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:11 PM, May 21st (Sunday)]

Very interesting topic with a lot of diverse viewpoints.

As a father of daughters no means no. As a husband wanting a decent experience really pushing my wife to have sex when it is not good for her isn't smart. And I too wouldn't want to be woken up from a dead sleep to have sex. Maybe a gentle morning romp would work.

That said, here is where I might get pummeled. She cheated and humiliated me in my own house. It is something we both are going to have to live with. I read on here that when caught the wayward swear on their children that they will spend the rest of their lives making it up to their partner. My wife made the same claim and I am holding her to that. For a long time she made a half assed effort. Now it is not just a throw away line. She either does spend her life making it up to me or we are done

That doesn't give me permission to treat her like crap. We are still married and I have a responsibility to treat her with respect, but she is the one that is going to make it up and sex is a big part of that equation. I don't think it's coercion since she made it part of the deal if I stayed with her. But maybe in a way it is. But if I am not satisfied sexually I am done. Sounds harsh but just the way I feel.

I've only scanned comments.

I'm not going to ask for anything for a couple weeks and see what organically develops when my wife chooses.

If I ask then she hasn't chosen. That is a catch-22. 😔

The only thing I can say at this point, since some people still insist on demand sex and emotional abuse is perfectly a okay is this.

Forcced sex makes you horribly unattractive. Even if you are a "ten" and hung like an elephant. No woman who has to perform on demand will EVER look at you and think, "dam that's for me". If you are watching a movie and a sex scene comes on she's going to panic because you might want to enforce your demand, or get kicked to the curb. You hold all the power, just like you brag about in this thread. She's never going to love or desire you because you can't even respect her.

It's sad really, but enjoy that power and your pile of stinking rotting flesh. When you remove something that is living as part of a whole thing, it dies, which is what you are ultimately doing to your sex life IN your marriage. But enjoy, because after all, that's your right.

Forcced sex makes you horribly unattractive. Even if you are a "ten" and hung like an elephant. No woman who has to perform on demand will EVER look at you and think, "dam that's for me". If you are watching a movie and a sex scene comes on she's going to panic because you might want to enforce your demand, or get kicked to the curb. You hold all the power, just like you brag about in this thread. She's never going to love or desire you because you can't even respect her.

What about the reverse? How does "I have to beg for sex" make a husband feel? Because, and I'm sure there's a lot of head shaking going on right now, that's the reality in almost every marriage I know of well enough to have the conversations with the husbands. A sex scene comes on and they panic thinking "This is going to make me horny, and I know there's no way she'll want to do it tonight". Their wives hold all the power and, surprisingly, they do love and respect them, they just mourn the loss of their sexual relationship. Does their wife respect them? Probably not, which is why they aren't getting sex. Why not? Because she holds all the cards; if she D's him, she'll take the money and the kids, regardless of who's at fault. If she has an A, people will say it's her husband's fault. Most TV shows portray husbands as either doting idiots, powerful cheaters, or solitary/troubled men who have a string of scorned ex-wives.

Let's put it this way, there's blame to go around here to all parties. Women need to realize that men have a much higher sex drive and it's the way most of us show and get love. Men need to realize that women sometimes really don't want to have sex and be OK with that in a marriage. But "Never have it when you don't want to" (not quoted from you, but this thread's general theme) or "If you don't want it but do it, it's rape" is insane. Sure, think that way if you like, but you will very likely wind up with a very unhappy husband or ex-husband. Just like if I decided I was only going to go to work when I felt like it, my W would probably be real unhappy when I lost my job, then our house, then our cars, then everything else. It's part of being an adult, and, in a relationship, you often are called on to do things that aren't really what you want right that minute. If you just say "No" to all of them, you aren't really married, you're using another person for your personal benefit. Sure, the same applies to men asking for sex; and if that's all he asking for, I'd completely agree. But if he's providing you the other things you need? Why in the heck wouldn't you want to do it, even if you're not in the "mood" right at that particular moment?

Just for the record, I'm for adults owning their shit and not messing over their partner, regardless of gender or sexual orientation, but this particular thread was about sex on demand, rape and abuse.

I do not define rape as including coercion or abuse. I don't. But, having said the former and having lived in a marriage where I was molested all night for nights on end until I "gave it up", and other things I've listed, I can tell you that's a hellacious way to live. You have no power at all, not even your own body. It kills ALL desire for your partner because why on earth would you allow yourself to be vulnerable (or shit, let's be honest relax and enjoy) with someone who not only behaves that way, but feels it is their right.

This is an incredibly multi faceted conversation. I hope the OP actually find what he needs here. I am the very far end of the spectrum, and while I would NEVER go back and I can accept he will never change, I did believe things could be better for a very long time and would have been willing to put in the work. I think his marriage is salvagable if they are able to find and utilize the right resources.

Why wouldn't i...

I dont want to.

Its Tuesday.

Im tired.

Its hot.

I want to play cards.

I want to count salt.

I need a break.

I don't feel attractive today.

I dont find him attractive today.

I want to read.

I want to pray.

I have homework.

Im going out

Laundry need to be done

Jesus is returning and I need to get ready

I just want to cuddle

Its cold

Oh and my favorite...

IT MY BODY AND I DONT NEED A DAMNREASON TO TELL SOMEONE NO..THEY CAN NOT INSERT THEIR BODY INTO MINE.

and my second favorite..

I dont fuck/screw/have sex when I dont want to..

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 8:45 PM, May 21st (Sunday)]

Smokenfire,

. I hope the OP actually find what he needs here

Yes, thanks. I wanted to understand. This is a topic that women who have experienced it have a VERY visceral reaction. Aka my wife

I don't have any frequency of sex concerns myself but a lot of the argument the men have have been mentioned by my brothers. But it doesn't directly apply to me. During "false R " my wife was initiating 2-3 times per week. She just doesnt feel I have understood my failure in the marriage. Too understand her choices even though she admits they were the wrong choices. Basically... she doesn't want a repeat. This is my work. And understanding is helping me deal with my anger.

I just need to wait a bit. Which will suck because my needs won't be met physically. But our conversation is much better than I expected it to be considering where we were last week. Baby steps. Thanks to SI for being there to discuss the hard questions!

[This message edited by Catch44 at 9:15 PM, May 21st (Sunday)]

Wow.

If anything, I appreciate this thread because it's given me a good indication of what users I won't ever engage with or respect again.

Stayedforthekids - I hope your wife gets the help she needs. I don't think it's with you.

I hate to defend seemingly negative or hateful comments, BUT in Stayedforthekids' defense, many a BW has commented here on SI about how she used her WH for sex after dday, worried about only her own sexual satisfaction, took advantage of hysterical bonding, and didn't worry about her H at all. Many women have said they felt sexually selfish and had no problem with that after learning of the A. I would say that I have read things like that enough to call it normal?

So, to be fair, are we talking about a common recovery stage and not a case of sexist abuse????

Just like it's sexually abusive for a wife to withhold sex for no reason from her husband.

That is NOT sexually abusive. Sexual abuse is undesired sex. Withholding sex might be emotionally abusive, but it is NOT sexually abusive. Get it right.

ok now that was hairsplitting regarding the adjective for abuse

both sides can be abusive and than the relationship breaks down... no excuse to go fuck strangers sorry just = no excuse and not connected to any perceived "marriage issue".

Here's my opinion, Catch - your failure of the marriage? What, that you suck at mind reading? I really worry that she ain't owning that she has a mouth to speak with and a hand to write with and that she is sticking you with the "organically" develop what the heck does that mean anyway = mind games? So you do the whole look interested and see if she "gets the hint"?

I am not saying to make the whole bedroom scene out to be monty python and it's all just lie back and think of England for her, but I'm sorry I am just lost as to how she is equating your failure of the marriage to what she did ?? That is just to me so wayward because she can own that she felt disrespected as a person by your actions. And she can initiate a conversation or two or three or a hundred about what she likes and prefers or doesn't and you can agree or you can say that doesn't work for me and here is what I am thinking would work ... and she can agree or disagree. The point is a relationship is not about control it is a dance

Do you two wanna dance well?

Here's the comment I made after like a hiatus of I dunno a month or some such... he rolls over to me in the AM and climbs on top and start kissing me to wake up and than dang he's done before I really am awake and I'm like "OK that wasn't even on the scale it was awful I am not a toilet,just yuck." So yeah he got a bit upset and I continued that "I love a quickie as much as anyone but even 5 mins ain't just about jerking off."

Now why was there a month hiatus? Because I didn't initiate and I had said as much that I was done begging as I see it and can he please be more forward.

So I come to find out this conversation was part of Katumus' fucked-upitude IMO to rationalize I criticize his performance and I should know how sensitive he is yadda yadda

No I suck at mind reading. And I suck probably still at gentle conversations. But he needed to come back to me and ask what I meant by anything I said that was hurtful, unclear etc. and not assume I don't ever want him to touch me again in the AM and it was therefore his "only" option as a means of "self-preservation" to use CL.

I am not saying I was diplomatic in my speech. I am owning I am blunt and coarse at times. But that in no way excuses him from just assuming whatever and that he didn't have healthy options regarding addressing "my failure" in regards to affirming him or whatever

So perhaps I have guessed wrongly Catch about where you two are in regards to re-establishing trust but geez man, I don't know if your WW posts here but it doesn't seem to me like she is owning just how warped her thinking is in regards to how abusive her own behavior is and I am sorry but not at all equal to you begging her for cuddle-time/closeness/sex when maybe she's not up for it

and editing to highlight what Owning said:

many a BW has commented here on SI about how she used her WH for sex after dday, worried about only her own sexual satisfaction, took advantage of hysterical bonding, and didn't worry about her H at all. Many women have said they felt sexually selfish and had no problem with that after learning of the A. I would say that I have read things like that enough to call it normal?

...we talking about a common recovery stage and not a case of sexist abuse

recovery ain't linear and imagining the whole mess of a wife doing for some POS and not her husband just ... I have no words about how now afterwards it is harder - no shit - to try to have some self-respect in the bedroom

here is where getting vulnerable honestly will hopefully bring you two together despite the trauma

peace as you process

[This message edited by Merida at 11:00 PM, May 21st (Sunday)]

How does "I have to beg for sex" make a husband feel?

I know it hurt my FWH, he thought I didn't love him, he felt rejected and unwanted. I didn't feel good having him beg for sex. But, this is the thing. I was, unknowingly because I had never heard of it, doing a sort of 180 on him. I was emotionally detaching from him because he was so angry, emotionally unavailable and selfish. I was getting my ducks in a row. I was waiting for the youngest to graduate. I was recovering from cancer and other health issues. I couldn't just leave, which is what I needed to do. And, I was really pissed about our sex life, too. I love sex. I resented the hell out of my FWH for taking all the fun out of it for me. Sure, he was an unselfish lover and made sure I always climaxed. He is, in fact, the best lover I have ever had. However, he made it a chore, an obligation, a duty, one more thing on my "to do list". We went to marriage counseling a few different times, for many sessions each time, during the course of our marriage pre d-day. What he always came away with was that the MC and I were ganging up on him. I tried so many times to change the dynamics. He just refused to see himself.

You, Rideitout, are only hearing one side of the story from your buddies. I am sure if you spoke to their BW's you would hear a different story. That you would take the word of wayward men at face value is kind of ludicrous, don't you think? They do tend to lie, you know.

Of course, the dynamic you are talking about is the way a healthy, non dysfunctional marriage needs to work. There is give and take. Compromise. What the reality is, for many here at SI, we didn't have those marriages. We had unhealthy, dysfunctional marriages. Some of us had emotionally, mentally, verbally abusive husbands (or wives). Yes, demanding sex and making us pay a huge price (anger, hostility, etc.) if we refused is abusive. It starts a vicious cycle. We should have sex with them even when we don't want to? *sigh* Even if the BS was not dysfunctional, doesn't mean the marriage wasn't. Co-dependency in either one or both spouses seem to be a very common thread in many marriage stories here. The imbalance of power. The wearing of rose colored glasses, too. There are also many marriages here that many would consider good marriages with great sex lives. Some crappy marriages with great sex lives, also. The common denominator is a WS with bad coping mechanisms and, sometimes, many other issues.

Let's put it this way, there's blame to go around here to all parties.

No, I don't think so. This is a generalization. I will not be blamed for my FWH's choice to fuck an OW. I was just as unhappy, if not more so, as he was and I didn't go get a fuck buddy to make me feel better.

"Never have it when you don't want to"

Yes, the means the HD partner (typically the man) will be making "demands"

See, there you go taking all the fun out of it, making sex a "demand". There are some things I do demand from my FWH. That is honesty, integrity, authenticity, fidelity. Sex isn't something I "demand". Sex is a gift we give each other, something we share. I would never demand a gift from anyone. Two years old make demands, mature adults don't.