SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, not to rehash the very long thread on what AP got vs Betrayed, just posting as a woman who went through menopause.

Relatively young, bam, period just gone, no hormones. Went kinda mental, libido gonzo.

But, while I may not have felt passionate, I still loved my husband passionately. So we always had sex, we worked around certain physiological issues, I worked around physical and mental issues, and we made it happen.

He doesn’t use my body, I use my body. The body that was exhausted, from work, kids, chores, and low libido. You can still have passion for the one you love without actual sexual passion due to a low libido.

When you truly love someone, sex shouldn’t be a chore. There are many things that will affect you sexually and mentally through the long years of a marriage (and I am NOT lumping a physical disability into this, which is totally different) but isn’t marriage about love? Forever love?

Passion is not just for sex. Passion for loving your spouse is way more lasting.

Root-thank you down posting. You nailed the important part. You are trying to do what your husband needs, because you want to. But that’s what being advocated here... not the time tested tangential breakdown of the core message that always happens on these threads. A BH simply wanting the same awesome sex they know the AP got turns into sexual demands, my body my choice, and pseudo rape implications that I absolutely abhor, because none of that isn’t what we are talking about or asking for. And I’m not even a guy whose wife didn’t do what I needed or was ever turned down. But I see it often enough to know it’s something worth discussing. But thank you for showing that there are WW who totally get it.

And as for the types of guys who don’t need need the level of treatment an AP got, as OIN eluded to, or who don’t post about it, aren’t type A, machismo etc. sure I’m pretty competitive, type A, but I’m loyal to those loyal to me. End of story. I’d say the BHs who don’t complain about it are probably getting the needs met. Their WWs are smart enough to understand their BHs ego and why they need to go above and beyond for BH what the ap ever got. And then their are BHs who are so mentally neutered and humiliated that they suffer in silence and fester, but never openly discuss the issue. But this is not a personality thing, this is an every betrayed, but particularly l male, thing.

And about the A not being about the BS... sure that might be true... doesn’t change the facts though. Ok so giving an AP role play or anal sex was purely about the broken WS and not about the BS. Cool. Sure. Whatever. But guess what? The AP got to have the fun. Would the BH who pays the bills, loves the WS, resembles stability and loyalty, want to do all those exhilarating things? Yes. But does he get to? No it doesn’t matter who the A was or wasn’t about. It’s about who ought to enjoy the rewards of loyalty. A broken WS still blows the APs mind with sex she denies her BH. Where’s he gonna get it? And the response will be divorce her, don’t pressure her. I agree, because I did divorce. But if he chooses that route, he gets to see his kids 50% of the time, and watch his disposable income go down the drain.. that kinda sucks too.

Really, what I see here is that a BH just has to accept the cards on the table and take his losses, while the AP gets to get off scot free.. komda makes me wonder why being loyal, humble and faithful is even a better option than being an uncommitted, narcissistic AP.

Nicenomore, I, too, give a tip o'the hat to Root--whether or not she eventually receives HRT.

She gets it.

[This message edited by MidnightRun at 9:14 PM, April 2nd (Monday)]

Greeneyesbluezy -

Great post! My W went thru menopause in her mid 30s. And she's never for one minute lost any passion for me.

It is all about actions. If your wife values someone's ego kibbles more than !marriage to you, then understand the message.

Do not demand anything speak with your own actions.

A woman once told me that if someone doesn't like sex then they are doing it wrong or doing it with the wrong person. With that being said, I do wish you well.

In the other thread about this, I think the consensus was that a WW should do whatever it takes to help her BH heal, unless it involves sex. Because her body, feminism, and stuff.

The only time my WH and I have gone through a drought (1 to 2 weeks or so for sex) was when I was expecting our daughter. Pregnancy hormones were awful and I was exhausted. I still put forth effort though. I can't imagine menopause is any different.

I wonder if you purchased libido creams and used them on her if it would help.

wow this is an interesting post stream. I have had similar problems. I am a post menopausal woman and yes I admit that pre A our sex life was just ticking along. But now I realise what excites my partner and have read some of the porn he send her. I am rearing to go. The problem is that he is not, it was better initially but he says he is confused that sex is wrong and that the stress of having hurt me and the empathy with how I feel has left him unable to get it up. That and age as he has recently turned 60. But I feel if he was so hot and horny last year that he just had to have phone sex and masturbate to re leave himself what does that say about me

Wow… What a strange thread…

I think it totally skirts the real issue.

The real issue isn’t sex or lack of it.

It won’t be fixed by sticking stuff into orifices.

The issue is – like the vast majority of marital issues – COMMUNICATIONS.

If you (OP) have issues with frequency of sex then you talk to your spouse about it.

You two work out what’s going on.

You two work on it.

If you (OP) want the same sex as OM got then you talk about it.

You two work out what’s going on.

You two work on it.

Like all constructive conversations it ends with resolution: You two find a way to reconnect or you two find a way to move on.

Forcing a dildo up someone’s @ss definitely sends a message. Sort of the same message and logic behind the bombing of Pearl Harbor IMHO…

I would think asking nicely and getting consent would make everyone that bit happier…

Really, what I see here is that a BH just has to accept the cards on the table and take his losses, while the AP gets to get off scot free.. komda makes me wonder why being loyal, humble and faithful is even a better option than being an uncommitted, narcissistic AP.

It's not if you're sexually motivated (as many men and some women are). And that's a whole lot of the problem. I'm well aware that I could get into an A and get the "good stuff" pretty quickly, and that's a total mind f**k for me; so with you WW, it takes years of dedication, sharing my assets, caring for you sick, loving you unconditionally, and still, you don't feel "safe" or comfortable with me in bed? But you did the narcissistic asshole AP a day after you met him? And I know, another woman would feel the same about me quickly if I barfed up the right lines to her on the 2nd date. And you want me to think that's not about me? Sorry, that's a leap my mind cannot make, and I think what I hear here is that most other BS's can't make that leap either. Because, it IS about us; we're asking people to make a mental connection that's not true, which is why it's difficult; like trying to believe the sky is green; it causes cognitive dissidence. Many read this one way (including myself), you were more turned on/attracted to/in love with the AP, which is why you had anal sex, BJ's (or whatever else). And, as much as we all don't want it to be so, that's probably the most "true" answer we'll ever get.

It is all about actions. If your wife values someone's ego kibbles more than !marriage to you, then understand the message.

Exactly. At least for me, actions are the only thing that matters anymore. And actions in this particular area count 1000X more than bringing me coffee in the morning or cleaning up the kitchen after I have a baking disaster. Yes, the other things are nice, but this is "it", this is the thing that really matters. It would be like having a husband who's a "great guy" in every respect except that he abuses you, that last part overrides all the other wonderful things that he might do. This "sex issue" is the same for me, and I suspect many other posters given way these threads tend to explode when they come up.

In the other thread about this, I think the consensus was that a WW should do whatever it takes to help her BH heal, unless it involves sex. Because her body, feminism, and stuff.

Yes, quit your job, sign away your rights in divorce, etc. No problem with any of them. "Have sex with your BH/BW that's as good as/better than the sex you had with the AP" and the board explodes. It's really shocking how different the many "consequences" of an A viewed. And no, nobody supports a WH when he comes here and says stuff like this, at least not that I've seen. If a WH did say this, I'd tell him, and I suspect many other posters would chime in, "leave your W and give her whatever she wants, you don't love her and she deserves better".

I was thinking about the "chore" analogy that some of the posters on here seem to see sex with their BS's as and thought up an analogy this morning. I kind of like mowing the lawn. Not always, sometimes it sucks, but I kind of like it most of the time. Now, imagine I mow my lawn every 3 weeks. Looks pretty sad most of the time, all overgrown with weeds, and my W, well, she's REALLY into lawns. Always talking about how awesome it would be to have a great lawn, be the talk of the town. Well, AP comes along, and I'm over there, every day, mowing/watering/fertilizing her lawn. She's got the most awesome lawn in the state. I'm trying new techniques; watching Youtube for hours and buying chemicals non-stop to get her lawn to a beautiful lush green color. Mowing it 3 times a week.

Well, D-day comes, wife finds out about this, and is really hurt. I don't even like lawns she says!! And this women, she has the best lawn anyone has ever seen. And our lawn looks like crap, weeds everywhere, and hasn't been mowed in months.

Now, I have a choice. I can say to my wife, "Baby, I'm going to give you a lawn that makes hers look like an overgrown Superfund site" and go do it.

Or, I can tell her that I was only mowing the lawn for the AP every day because she was giving me sex. Tell her that I don't really like lawns, and it was all ego kibbles and rainbows. Our lawn will never be like hers, because, well, that's just not me. And then, to up the ante on my perceived victim status, I'll tell her how dangerous the chemicals can be that I used to fertilize the AP's lawn. People get cancer from Roundup; and ask her if she wants me to die for her to prove my loyalty, because that's just not reasonable. Tell her about the 5 people a year who fall off their lawnmowers and are killed, and the other 5000 people a year who are injured mowing the lawn. Why can't "I" just be enough? Why are you trying to hurt me in R?

Let me ask you, how do you think that would go over here? Because, if a WH had the guts to say this here, I'm going to just guess that the responses would be somewhere between "WTF" and "you need help". But it's my body, it's my autonomy; why should I have to do anything that could possibly hurt me to help my W heal? Why should I have to pretend to like lawns? Do you want me to be an actor??

This is what I read/hear when I see these responses. Except it's more ridiculous than that to me; people really do get injured mowing the lawn, last time I checked, not many people lost fingers giving a BJ or anal sex. And I suspect this is how many of the other people see it who are generally of the same mindset, this is "table stakes" it's fast, it's easy, and it's supposed to feel good for both people. How is that an unreasonable expectation in R?

But I feel if he was so hot and horny last year that he just had to have phone sex and masturbate to re leave himself what does that say about me

To me, it says nothing about you, but a lot about your H's commitment to R. Which is, boiled down, what all of these threads are about. A lot of us see a commitment to R as acts, be they sexual and/or others. And your H, I'd give him exactly the same advice, get it together, get on Viagra if need be and make your W the priority like you did the AP. It's that simple, at least in my admittedly simple mind.

redhorse

Have you talked to your WW about this?

I think Bigger, as always, hits the nail.on the head.

The issue is – like the vast majority of marital issues – COMMUNICATIONS.

Have any of you guys communicated your needs without coming across as demanding or giving ultimatums? Have you sought out MC to work on issues post A?

I don't really think 'toxic shame' was to blame for your lackluster sex life. She clearly just wasn't that much 'in heat' where you were concerned. Maybe she married you more for security and love or because it was the thing to do at her age or maybe cause she wanted to have children. Sex with you just wasn't a top priority on her list and she wasn't driven by lust for you.

"Toxic shame" may have worked well as an excuse to avoid having sex with you, but it would appear that supposed shame went right out the window the minute she met a man who got her motor running.

It is what it IS, RedHorse. All the 'ultimatums' in the world isn't going to magically CHANGE her libido for you.

I'm curious as to why you'd be so willing to settle for this disrespectful and demeaning treatment but I would suppose you have your reasons.

I love the lawn analogy, makes perfect sense to me.

I don't get how this is even a debate? If a WW gives AP blowjobs, anal, etc, but then refuses to give it to her BH, what is the BH supposed to think? How can R even be an option if she views him as sexually inferior? It's like he's good enough to pay the bills, clean the house, take care of the kids, etc... but not good enough to get the good sex that AP got.

Yes, it IS her body, and it IS her choice. But it's the BH's choice to not put up with that kind of ABUSE, and yes it is emotional abuse. My WW does has not given me anal sex in years... was never that into it anyway, I'll live. But if I find out she was happily having anal with the AP, but refused to do it with me, that would be a problem. Why is he worthy and I'm not? THAT would be a deal breaker for me.

[This message edited by Fenderguy at 7:31 AM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

Forcing a dildo up someone’s @ss definitely sends a message

Where is all this stuff coming from? Who has mentioned it, other than people saying stuff like that is wrong?

I don't get how this is even a debate?

Me either. But it is, it's a HUGE debate, perhaps the most debated issue on SI since I've been a member; the place where there are just two completely different views of what's "right" that are diametrically opposed to one another.

It's almost nearly perfectly delineated by gender lines. WS or BS, doesn't really matter; it's only male or female that seems to drive the viewpoint on responses.

It's like he's good enough to pay the bills, clean the house, take care of the kids, etc... but not good enough to get the good sex that AP got.

It's not like that. It IS that. The reasons for it are varied and extensive, but that IS it, in a nutshell.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:48 AM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

I think the premise if really very simple and fundamental without regards to genders. It starts out as faoundationally on a presumption of justice.

It it reasonable for a BS to expect the same passion and diversity of sex that their WS gave to the OP?

This is the core construct that is presented. I think many BH may just want validation that, yes, it is certainly as reasonable an expectation as would be anything else the WS did for the OP. If the WS accompanied the OP to car shows and then the BS wanted the same, can the BS consider this a reasonable expectation - to now have their BS accompany them to any future car show they want to go to. I think the majority of folks of any gender would say it is a reasonable expectation.

Can a person just have validation that, whether it happens or not aside, yes it is reasonable to expect from your WS whatever they did or gave to the OP. An end it at that.

Can a person just have validation that, whether it happens or not aside, yes it is reasonable to expect from your WS whatever they did or gave to the OP. An end it at that.

The answer to this, from the 100 pages of threads, is a resounding "NO!". What we all agree is:

"Yes it is reasonable to expect from your WS whatever they did or gave to the AP unless it is sexual in nature."

And that's the divide, in general, men would end that statement at "gave to the AP" and women, in general, seem to feel that's reasonable until sex is brough into the discussion.

I am going to chime in here as a FWW, over 50 and has been in menopause since I was 29. I was on hormonal therapy for 2 years but was taken off because of the increased chance of breast cancer. Honestly, I never noticed a change in my libido whether I was on it or not.

My libido has waxed and waned throughout our M, raising kids, work, my weight and just everyday life would have an effect.

After really listening to some advice I received from a wise one here on SI and that made the biggest different for my BH and I was that we talked.

We talked about our needs, wants, expectations, what we liked, didn't like and even about exploring our fantasies. Then we talked about frequency, how we could compromise and what would work for both of us. I also shared for the first time what I needed to increase my sexual desire. Yes, my BH had some work to do for this but he has done it happily.

My BH makes me feel desired every single day, not just 5 minutes before sex. Which in turn makes me want him like you wouldn't believe. So it is a win-win for both of us.

This conversation was very open and honest with both of us being vulnerable and with no judgement.

It was the most important and best thing we could have done for our M.