SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't feel shame in the same sense you do. I feel shame in that I knew in my gut that something wasn't right and I believed excuses that didn't make sense. I felt shame for suspecting such a thing - as he repeatedly told me I should. That the problem was me for thinking such things.

I understand the feelings of inadequacy. Like men have certain social expectations, we women are always judged by looks and sex. To have our men cheat is devastating. We are also intimate creatures and to have our men also do things for another woman and treat us badly is also a blow like no other.

Now, my shame is staying (I'm financially unable to leave) and believing in part he won't do it again when I feel 99% certain he is still lying about physical contact among other things, like "I knew I was doing something a little shady by taking her out and lying to you, but my line in the sand was psyical contact. And it might have been all in my head that she wanted me." Yeah, because there's a big question after 11 years of seeing her during business trips and just not knowing, right? And he says it was a game of chicken. He'd back out if he ever really found out. Gag.

Is what you feel shame or horrible shredded ego? There is a difference. You didn't make your wife cheat. She would have cheated if you were George Clooney with the body of adonis and the bankroll of Bill Gates.

I had giant shame. My WxGF was very good socially. Meaning she was quite popular with my work colleagues from workplace holiday parties and such. I was the schmuck she dumped for another man. It was part of the package of pain I lived through, and I responded in hugely dysfunctional ways, including sex with a coworker on company premises during working hours that almost got me fired (but later became somewhat legend). I think I did it in part because I felt a need to prove to my colleagues that I wasn't a gelding.

I really appreciate all the input and feedback from everyone here. SI is a good place.

It's interesting to me that not all the BH on here internalize the shame the same way... and I, like Reece, am envious of those that don't feel that shame the same way. I know it's my WW's shame... not mine. It SHOULD be. She was the shitty one, she was the broken one. But it doesn't change how I feel.

There are times I do feel weak. Usually it's when I'm thinking of things I *wish* I'd done differently in the past. Wishing I'd met AP outside of his work, retaliated better in some way. Didn't do the pick me dance after AP1. Punched AP2 right in the mouth when I saw him at a bar later. Things like that. I can *hope* I'd deal with things differently now, but who knows. I don't want or need pity. The pity makes me feel more ashamed, which is why perhaps it's good that very few people know about WW's SA.

Thumos, I read through your whole recent thread, and there was a ton of good stuff in there. I really hope you're on your way to finding peace. Our timeline is almost identical... my WW had her A in fall of 2016, I found out around the holidays (which are permanently ruined for me, since BOTH her major affairs were revealed around the same time in different years) and now I'm right around the 3 year mark. Your points about biological reactions to affairs are interesting... I'm not sure if that makes me feel better or worse, to be honest. But I do feel like my chemistry is permanently altered. There will never be any more specialness, and even though I enjoy her company and we have a good time together, it's different than before and likely always will be. That bond will never be rebuilt, not in the pre-A way.

OldWounds--thank you for the morale boost. It's important for us BH (and BW too!) to remember that we ARE badasses for enduring some of the worst shit that humans can do to each other.

1) I have trouble with 'poor betrayed men' threads because women report having thoughts that are very similar to men. Seems like whining, which simply does not help solve problems. JMO, but I do think this 2 X 4 might help.

2) KingRat, Unhinged, Walloped, ChamomileTea - I'm with you. I have to admit it's a little easier for me, given the gender of my W's ap - but then there may be a lot of societal contempt for men who are so bad in bed that they drive their Ws to women....

I knew within a relatively few minutes of my W's confession that she betrayed herself before she betrayed me.

Her A was about her, not me, and I think that's true for many - probably most, maybe all - KISA/co-d As. It's probably even truer for narcissistic WSes and for luurve and mid-life crisis As.

3) Having said that, I've had to deal with shame and a sense of emasculation from time to time post-d-day.

A number of times since d-day, I have been frustrated by events in my life. A number of times, I've actually been unable to effect events positively (as I defined 'positive'). During those periods, the negative, self-attacking self-talk gets active, and it takes work to figure out the self-talk that gets me back on track.

You can learn to hear your negative self-talk, and you can learn to stop it and/or replace it with positive self-talk. I'd bet a lot that you'll find doing so was worth the effort.

4) Hormones: Vasopressin may have an effect on the brain; it's not certain. It reportedly has a short half life (about 20 minutes).

Oxytocin just feels good. There apparently is a gender difference - women get doses from things like cuddling, caring for a bay, etc.; men get a big dose from orgasm, not so much from cuddling. Oxytocin may stick around longer than vasopressin.

But the men here report feeling emasculated for long periods. That's not explained directly by the short-lived hormones.

The hormonal component probably affects affect(!). I believe Tomkins's theory is that we process affects into thoughts and feelings. IOW, the link between feeling emasculated and hormones may be overblown by Thumos' IC.

I did experience a sense of emasculation from time to time after d-day, but it was definitely not logical and not connected to oxytocin or vasopressin (unless some kidney function was creating vasopressin during the event).

It wasn't logical, because I never was emasculated - my body was whole, and I was sexually active using the normal parts. That's sort of the definition of NOT being emasculated. IMO, very few BSes are actually emasculated (or the equivalent for women).

The logical conclusion, then, was that my sense of emasculation was generated by me, probably out of some frustration, fear, or grief. And since I generated it, I could stop it, which I did, as soon as I figured out what was going on.

If one generates one's own sense of emasculation, as I think usually happens, one can also stop it - or learn to stop it with the help of, say, a good IC or EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique - tapping).

5) 25 years ago, probably due to an infection in my prostate, I experienced a period of impotence that lasted for 4-5 months. THAT was emasculation, or too damned close to it - my body was whole, but a key part of it wasn't working. And that was before pills could help with impotence.

Changing my self-talk got me out of shame and feeling unmanly after d-day. Self-talk did nothing about my physical problem. It took 4 months of an antibiotic to cure me.

I do not know the unthinkable aftermath of losing cherished body parts, but I do I know more than a little about being unable to function in a way that got me big doses of oxytocin. Believe me, it's nothing like what I experienced after d-day.

6) How does ruminating about the injustice of it all help you heal? Does it not keep you stuck?

Look - we all do some of that ... but the less we do, the more we heal.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:38 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

The extent, type (emotional vs physical) and length of the betrayal may or may not have something to do with how long the lingering takes place. For me, the physical part is what's most meaningful and impacting.

When I was betrayed, I felt shame and embarrassment and humiliation, but only for a six month period. I believe my feeling would have remained much longer had I reconciled with my fiances' (I was cheated on twice by two separate fiances' 4 years apart) and even longer had either fiance remained aloof, uncommitted and not remorseful.

I think playing the pick me dance is one of the heavier contributors to being humiliated, along with being exposed to the AP, sex in the home, and a myriad of other stuff. I played "pick me" in my first failed engagement and to this day, am livid participated in it. I was pitiful.

Both engagements were preceded by long term relationships and I loved both dearly but moved on rather quickly as my tolerance for betrayal in any facet of life is nil. Playing the pick me dance in my first one, awakened me and launched me into an immediate 3 month long no contact which was fueled by the pick me humiliation.

All of those feeling would have remained with me had I stayed with either fiance, and continued with a foggy fiance, with more cheating and chasing, which is humiliation piled on the previous humiliation, which can lead to deepening the shame and lengthening the period for esteem, confidence and perhaps dignity to be restored.

I broke off both engagements immediately (great confidence builder) and moved forward with my life, which hastened my recovery. There was no chance for either fiance to further influence me as I was gone and back in control of my life. So, essentially, taking action to remove the infidelity abbreviated my recovery time as opposed to staying and wrestling with the possibility of an uncertain romantic future and asking myself, am I worthy or am I this or that.

[This message edited by Jorge at 2:30 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

Think what you like, Butforthegrace, but what I told my H was true—it WASN’T him; it WAS me. My cheating was not due to his deficiencies; it was due to my own.

I’m glad it made you “lol,” though.

Sure, I feel shame sometimes. I did more at first in that first year or two.

But why would I feel shame for being a good man. It was my fWWs issues that lead to the A(s). It was her bullshit.

Then let's look at the asshats that she had as OM. What kind of a spinless fuck has to sneak around to get BJ's from a married woman? What kind of a piece of shit calls a married woman to come over and get some when he knows her husband is working late to give his family more (especially when this OM was unemployed and being supported by his BW)? Why do we call these idiots winners and we are somehow losers or inadequate? What kind of a man sends dick pics? (I could just stop there) What kind of an immature dumbass asks a married woman for pictures of her tits, or her "southern hemisphere"?

When I found out about her last A, then the others, I took charge of my family and made demands. I told her to fix her shit or pack her bags. I told her failure to fix her shit would result in divorce and outing her to everyone. Then I dug in and helped her. It took time. She is now the wife I need and wanted. I WIN.

Those other spineless cowards? One is divorced and his kids want nothing to do with him, another is now divorced again, and has no kids, the last was outed to his kids. His wife is with him, but his kids and family know what kind of a piece of shit he was.

My fWW? She owns it. She is the one that feels shame (working to transform that to guilt). She knows she was the loser that, instead of acting like an adult and advocating for herself in our marriage, got on her knees for loser men. There is no winning in that scenario. She has worked hard to become a strong, safe partner. I WIN.

How can I ever feel inadequate in these situations. I was the real man, working hard for his family. They were garbage, sneaking around trying to feel good about themselves when they knew they were lesser men.

BW here - I thought I would throw my two cents in. I feel all the shame that you feel but in female form. I feel like I wasn't satisfying, and frequent enough. I feel like I wasn't woman-enough, I feel like I wasn't pretty enough, skinny enough and smart enough. Ugh. Writing all this is very painful. I just wanted to let you know that it's not all Men's shame!!.

Exactly so. I still feel the shame of all those things. That he chose her over me because she was more attractive in his eyes (she's actually quite ugly, like her personality), I wasn't pleasing enough sexually (first thing she did was give him a bj, which he ALWAYS nattered on about), that she didn't complain to him (of course she didn't, she didn't live with him and have to put up with the crap, she just got the good bits), etc.

The biggest shame I feel is in having sacrificed myself for the family, while enabling him to keep his fancy job which is a great source of entertainment, ego kibbles, and over friendly women. I font regret making life better for the kids, but I DO regret letting him have it easy. No compromise, no support from him in anything. He works. I do everything else. That's how I thought it had to be. I didn't stand up for myself enough and force him to change or take responsibility.

I hear you guys on the emasculation aspect because I experienced the female side of that. I went from feeling pretty good about myself, "I look good for my age" and so forth, to viewing myself as old and unattractive and not what men really want. I haven't worn lingerie since before DDay. I had some that I thought I looked hot as hell in, but I can't see that anymore. I just see "boy, that would have looked a lot better on you when you were in your 20s". I thought I had a man who loved me for who I was and found me attractive. Maybe he did find me attractive, but I clearly wasn't what he wanted. He cheated with women half my age.

Today I don't give a damn what he found attractive or who he sleeps with and I wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole. I'm over feeling inadequate for him. I did have a ONS after leaving him with a man in his 20s that reminded me that I am attractive and good in bed (and ha ha, my XWH had to pay for women that young and I don't), and yet...I had avoided that mid-life thing that women go through where they struggle with physical changes and not being as hot as they used to be. I had totally avoided it. And now I have it in my head and that angers me.

My WWs AP was a POS. He was a drug addict who fucked several different married women, while being married himself. He lied about everything to make himself what my WW thought she was missing with me. I won’t say he played her, because she chose to cheat, but the guy did have a good game going.

He was also better looking than me. Skinny, muscular, well groomed, dressed better, was more refined. I work outside with my hands for a living, and with that comes a certain level of ferality. I was an average looking schlub by comparison. Our sex life had become pretty vanilla, and it was pretty clear I wasn’t (still don’t) get her motor running. I haven’t had sex with anybody else since March of 2006, so my sexual game was probably not up to par with his.

My W claims the A wasn’t about sex. It was an EA first and a PA for about a month, and she liked the EA much better. Believe me, I felt totally emasculated for awhile. She has done absolutely nothing to reassure me in this area. I lost weight, pumped up, and kind of adopted a new, positive, carefree attitude. Other women found me attractive, and that helped. I now know that I’m a catch. I’m successful, decent looking, a good father, and IMO, one hell of a guy! I aspire to be a better person all the time, within realistic boundaries. I do not base my self worth on my wife’s opinion of me, because that would get me nowhere.

I mean, if you think about it, isn't this mindset a bit of societal indoctrination?

No, according to what I’ve learned. There is an empirical bio chemical basis for it. The nonsense about social constructs and toxic masculinity is ... nonsense.

It’s not whining, it’s not fictional, it’s not indoctrination. It’s real. It’s biogically, hormonally, neuropsychologically real. Really. The sooner women and men come to terms with this the better. The sooner white knighting “enlightened” men stop pretending, the better. Pretty words and incantations aren’t making this go away.

We can drift along in 21st century post modern circular discussions, we can play around with various psychological models with no basis in science ... or acknowledge the reality of gender differences and the very real biological impact adultery has on each gender. That doesn’t minimize women’s pain or maximize men’s pain; it just acknowledges the very real differences.

Not just our genitalia, but our brains, our memories, our skeletal patterns, even the way we walk biomechanically. All different. So too our reaction to sexual betrayal. It is what it is. Not better or worse. But most certainly different. Stop trying to make men who experience this viscerally feel guilty or bad about it. It’s wrong. Gross even. Honor it instead.

BW here - I thought I would throw my two cents in. I feel all the shame that you feel but in female form. I feel like I wasn't satisfying, and frequent enough. I feel like I wasn't woman-enough, I feel like I wasn't pretty enough, skinny enough and smart enough. Ugh. Writing all this is very painful. I just wanted to let you know that it's not all Men's shame!!.

Correct. It’s just different. The emasculation men feel is simply different. Not worse. Not more or less pain. Just different. And it must be acknowledged and dealt with in a different way, starting with acknowledging that emasculation is a real and biological, empirical thing — not a social construct.

WW’s don’t get this, and frankly I don’t expect them to. Let’s face it, most waywards of both genders are not very empathetic beings to begin with, or they wouldn’t engage in adultery. Their enlightenment meter is pretty low. If I were a Buddhist, and I once was, I’d say they probably just came off the assembly line of reincarnation from being lowly beasts in the immediate past life.

Our bar for expecting empathy from a wayward is actually pretty low - it’s like “oh, you’re acting a little bit like a sentient being in the universe now, that’s wonderful! You’re glimpsing a bit of what is to see that other beings have souls, so awesome!”

So expecting a wayward woman to have any capacity for absorbing the reality of emasculation and how they have dropped a radioactive dirty bomb on their husbands is probably unrealistic. But we can ask them to acknowledge empirical facts about biochemistry, and that’s a start.

it doesn't change how I feel.

Maybe not, but you can. Our thoughts control our feelings. If we think bad thoughts, we have bad feelings. If we think good thoughts, we have good feelings. You can turn that negative self talk around.

Whenever you have a negative thought, force yourself to think of at least positive things. Maybe write them down. Maybe write down 3 positive thoughts every morning as soon as you wake up. Positive affirmations can help a lot. There are plenty of free YouTube videos on it.

Thumos, would care to expand on what, exactly, the biological effect is for men? Maybe I missed it. I reading a lot of very vague statements that it's biologically different for men, but not how it's different. I'm not challenging you, btw. I truly want to know the chemical and biological reactions behind the theory.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 9:00 AM, November 7th (Thursday)]

I’ve been told by my therapist that one of the primary keys to understanding the very real feelings of emasculation most men seem to experience lies in the release of vasopressin during intimacy - a “bonding” hormone men get during intimacy in addition to oxytocin (women get a dose of oxytocin too, but not vasopressin. It seems to have more of a “possessive” quality, essentially sending the body and brain a constant reinforcing feedback loop, “she’s mine.” When that is suddenly severed by another man’s sexual conquest of what the man thought “belonged” to him (something he’s not even conscious of) ... wham, bam, emasculation. Instant presto. This especially makes sense if you think about a decades-long monogamous commitment. I’ve never been able to swallow the “social construct” narrative our mass media seems intent on selling regarding gender differences. More and more science keeps emerging showing gender differences are quite real, quite biological and quite grounded in three dimensional space. This is yet one more example. If WW’s truly understood that they’ve wreaked bio chemistry havoc in their BH’s bodies and brains in a way that seems unique to men, they might not be able to empathize, but they might be able to see that this is not merely an emotional issue or something they can talk their way out of.

I note there’s a debate about the short half life of hormones. That’s missing the point of how a hormone like vasopressin works. It is a booster shot for bonding. Each hit doesn’t “linger” in the system for long, but that’s because it doesn’t need to. It has already done its job.

I think the recent APA efforts to demean and erase “traditional” masculinity and deride very real gender differences is a great example of the trend I’ve observed that not only disregards how men think but tries to pathologize it or even guilt men about it. I’d urge all of us instead to honor the beautiful differences between genders (even our brains work in substantially different ways) and honor that men likely experience feelings of emasculation because that is how they were designed and it’s how their biology works.

That doesn’t mean they can’t heal from it and that doesn’t mean therapeutic approaches are useless, but trying to wave it away as whining is incredibly unhelpful and frankly bizarre in light of the preponderance of forums in which men mention their struggles with it on this very website.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:09 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]

Thanks for articulating what I'm thinking and feeling, Thumos. This felt odd to me too... while I do understand how it could be seen as whining ("waaaah men have it so much harder") that is not what I meant at all.

I don't mean to minimize BW's shame or pain either. Neither BW nor BH have it easier or harder--it's the same pain experienced in different ways, and there are always exceptions. But it does seem like men hang on to that shame for a long time.

My WW is a SA. There is a powerful shame associated with that. I went to S-Anon for 18 months and only saw 1 other man there, ever--and he was gay (and part of a throuple). I had deep conversations there, and I honestly think most, if not all, of the women there did not experience the same type of shame that I did.

My WW should ABSOLUTELY be ashamed of her behavior. She acted shamefully. She betrayed herself and her children. Her behavior is not my fault. It is not my shame to bear. But that doesn't mean it's easy to shake it off. Running into an AP at a bar and seeing the smirk that says "your wife and I fucked" made ME feel ashamed. AP wasn't thinking about WW in that moment, he was thinking about how he won. If the roles would the feelings be the same?

Maybe. Maybe not. But I think, as far as we've come, there are still gender differences that affect us all and our perception of others, and I think we're doing a disservice if we don't acknowledge the effect it has on our recovery.

I have shame as a BW.

I am ashamed that I chose a Cheater. I had experienced infidelity by two boyfriends prior to meeting WH. I felt obligated to forgive him the first time, so I did. That snowballed into more cheating on his part.

Despite trying to do everything right, he still cheated. That’s fucked up.

I think the recent APA efforts to demean and erase “traditional” masculinity and deride very real gender differences is a great example of the trend I’ve observed that not only disregards how men think but tries to pathologize it or even guilt men about it. I’d urge all of us instead to honor the beautiful differences between genders (even our brains work in substantially different ways) and honor that men likely experience feelings of emasculation because that is how they were designed and it’s how their biology works.

I personally feel a bit weird whenever gender stereotypes come up because I start feeling like I'm not really a woman. I'm positive that I am really a woman and not transgender, and yet, I do not relate to a lot of these stereotypes. If you try to predict things about me based on my genitals, you're going to get a whole lot wrong.

Trying to pigeonhole people based on their gender is not necessarily helpful. There are far more differences between two individuals than between the genders at large. You see it here on this thread between men. You see it in threads about how women are supposedly not as upset about the sex as the emotional cheating and I can't relate to that at all. The sex was more important to me than any sweet words, and that does not make me a man anymore than a man in this thread not feeling emasculated makes him a woman.

Masculinity is a cultural construct. It’s based upon biological predisposition and social expectations that have adopted by that particular culture. For example, men don’t cry or show emotion. Biologically, men may be predisposed to not process emotional as well, but society tells us that crying makes you a sissy. However, you have the physical ability to cry as much as the woman next to you.

So your shame may be two-fold, perhaps like Thumas said, there’s some biological factor that instills domination and the drive to conquer and control a woman as a possession/resource much like an ape. And it can be society telling you that women shouldn’t like sex, and as man, you shouldn’t love a woman who enjoys sex unless it’s with you, i.e. Madonna-whore complex. As a result, you feel shame when you see your the only man in room.

But biologically speaking, there’s no proof that SA is a true pathological illness and estrogen, while not as strong as T, is also a powerful sex hormone. In other words, there’s nothing physically preventing a woman from enjoying sex and seeking sex.

Masculinity is a cultural construct.

Disagree wholeheartedly. There may be aspects of masculine culture that are cultural constructs, but masculinity itself? That's biological. The commonalities of masculinity across global cultures are easily observed. The minor variations only prove the point.

As to ...

like Thumas said, there’s some biological factor that instills domination and the drive to conquer and control a woman as a possession/resource much like an ape.

That isn't what I said. I said vasopressin seems to have more of possessive quality to it than oxytocin. Keep in mind that men get a hit of both oxytocin and vasopressin during intimacy, whereas women only get the hit of oxytocin. Both are pair bonding reinforcers. What's interesting is that men get a double hit of pair bonding from two different hormones. One is the "protective, possessive" bond and the other is the "nurture, gentle" bond. Add that up over decades of intimacy with one woman, and then that woman blows up the intimacy? Think of the cognitive dissonance involved. Thus, emasculation. This isn't hard. And it shouldn't be controversial.

I'm not minimizing feminine pain from a cheating spouse. I'm not maximizing male pain. I'm simply saying they are different. And I'm offering an empirical basis for what we read here on SI over and over and over: that men, by and large (and the exceptions seem to prove the rule) feel deep emasculation from their WW's adulterous sex. I don't know how many different men need to come on this forum and randomly post a topic like "Feeling emasculated, what do I do?" or "Lingering shame for men" for this to sink in. There seems to be some stiff-necked posture here sometimes that I find baffling about being willing to accept this.

Genders are different. Example: Men walk in a completely biomechanically different way from women. No really. Like the two skeletal structures move in fundamentally different ways, with different substructures. Example #2: Our brains work in almost completely different ways. For example, women are able to use both hemispheres at once. Men are capable of "shutting off" one hemisphere and hyperfocusing their thinking from one hemisphere. Men skip back and forth from one hemisphere to the other. This gives both women and men advantages and disadvantages, as you might imagine.

Vasopressin doesn't make a man walk around like a knuckle-dragging cave man, it simply sends a signal of loving pair bonding that has a somewhat more possessive quality to it. And it seems to also have a "protective" quality to it, that also sends a feedback loop of protecting and sheltering nuclear family members. Again, this doesn't seem particularly controversial or hard to understand.