SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

WTF does a good or bad marriage have to do with infidelity being abusive anyway?

Good point.

I am interested in this topic separately. I wish there were better social science on these sorts of topics.

It involves the free will of the offending spouse and nobody has any right [legal or otherwise] to control another person

Um, yes we do have a "legal" right to keep our contracts/promises. M is a contract - infidelity is a breach.

Actually, it's not only a breach, but it's a fraud. The law is there to protect us from damages inflicted by breaking contracts and by fraud and by other actions that cause harm (easy one is injury in a car accident). As to the "abuse".... in most areas one can sue a rapist in civil court for compensation for the damage (ie pain & suffering) inflicted by the rapist. One can also bring a civil suit for compensation for the damages / pain & suffering from a physical assault.

Infidelity reaps all of that "damage" of pain & suffering of rape & assault (and some would say more), yet our culture / legal system has normalized the behavior such that only a handful of states allow for a civil suit seeking compensation for the pain & suffering of infidelity in a separate suit, and a similar small # of states would consider infidelity in awarding assets in a D prompted by infidelity ($$$ being the only way the law can even attempt to balance the scales).

So - while no one has a right (legal or otherwise) to "control" another person (including via rape or physical assault), there are a ton of legal rights to seek compensation for pain & suffering arising from wrongdoing.... failure to allow such suits WRT the pain & suffering (aka damages) from infidelity is, IMHO, akin to the law (or policymakers) telling their constituents that infidelity does not constitute "wrongdoing".

If that's not one helluva way for a WS to rationalize, I dunno what is.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 3:01 PM, October 15th, 2020 (Thursday)]

gmc, you're confusing marriage vows with the marriage contract. Vows are for cultural or religious reasons, vows have zero legal significance in the US.

When you get a marriage license, the only stipulation for the wedding is witnesses. You can get married in Vegas by Elvis and write your own vows that may or may not include a damn word about fidelity. Vows are merely giving your word.

And you do have a legal avenue to pursue if you find your marriage isn't working for any reason - divorce.

Should infidelity be a factor in divorce? I think so. Should we criminalize it? I don't think so.

Should infidelity be a factor in divorce? I think so. Should we criminalize it? I don't think so.

Criminalize? Obviously not. But some level of reform may be in order. The alienation of affection lawsuit has actually been deployed recently and garnered some headlines. It's more a symbolic act, but what a symbol! More states could adopt alienation of affection laws that gave faithful spouses some recourse to force essentially a "victim impact statement" and it would probably deter some adulterers.

And what about making post nup agreements enforceable? In many states they are not and aren't worth the paper they are printed, as I found out about my own state.

Just a few examples.

Another reform could require adulterers seek therapy with a betrayal trauma specialist in much the same way as court-ordered anger management courses can be ordered. No criminalization there.

Yet another reform could be to modify no fault divorce laws to include some sort of financial recompense/penalty associated with adultery that can be proved empirically. Call it the "Adultery Restitution Act" of 2021. A less favorable divorce for the adulterer that ties a judge's hands to some extent -- whether they be a man or woman.

Just some thoughts.

In the past couple of years, congressional hearings have focused on the measurable decline of social capital on communities across America. Perhaps a series of hearings could focus on the deleterious impact on social capital from adultery.

As a culture we could also embrace some social reforms. Perhaps there should actually be an organization formed similar to past social movements like MADD which highlighted the problem of drunk driving and led to reforms. This organization could raise dollars for a social awareness "adultery is abuse" campaign and we could have a societal reckoning just as we did on the issues of date rape, domestic violence, #MeToo and so on.

Would this stop adultery? Decidedly no. Have the social awareness campaigns on drunk driving, date rape, sexual harassment, domestic violence, and other toxic behaviors stopped those things from happening? Decidedly no. But they have stopped the tacit endorsement of these things. And they have stopped the further victimization of victims. And they have made these things socially unacceptable.

A renewed artistic focus on the reality of how toxic adultery is. For example, "Fatal Attraction" is a thriller filled with hyperbole, but it did a reasonably good job of showing the shock and horror adultery brings to faithful spouses. We don't have that many portrayals with that level of honesty in the mass media today. In fact, adultery is valorized more often than not.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:33 PM, October 15th (Thursday)]

A renewed artistic focus on the reality of how toxic adultery is. For example, "Fatal Attraction" is a thriller filled with hyperbole, but it did a reasonably good job of showing the shock and horror adultery brings to faithful spouses. We don't have that many portrayals with that level of honesty in the mass media today. In fact, adultery is valorized more often than not.

A better, more realistic take on adultery was the follow up by the same director. "Unfaithful" reverses the genders, the woman is the cheater.

Spoilers for those who care.

Richard Gere and Diane Lane are married. They have a kid. Gere is a successful businessman, affectionate at home as well. The movie makes him a little dowdier than Richard Gere normally is, but he's still Richard Gere. Diane Lane was extremely beautiful at the time.

They live in the suburbs. The setting is idealized, but maybe Diane Lane is a little bored. She does charity work or has some foo foo type job. Something takes her into the city, and she meets this import/export continental type guy. Attractive guy. They wind up having an affair. The point of the movie being even Richard Gere, successful, good husband can get cheated on.

The movie does a good job of portraying Diane Lane's mixture of desire and disgust. She grows cold to Richard Gere's advances and neglectful of her other duties. Eventually an employee Gere lets go says something about seeing Lane with this guy. Gere hires a private detective who gets pictures. Gere goes to confront the AP. AP lets him into his apartment. Gere finds an item that Lane regifted to the AP, a sentimental item, and kills the AP with it in a fit of rage.

Gere disposes of the body. Eventually the body is found, the police connect Lane to the AP. They start to ask more questions. The movie ends with Lane and Gere deciding whether he should turn himself in or they should go on the run somewhere (with their kid.)

The AP is also a player, cheating with multiple women, which is typical IRL of the men women cheat with. The movie does a good job of explaining Diane Lane's state of mind, what it would be like to go through that. I still hated the character for what she did, even though I understand the thought process and feelings, I can't empathize. Too disgusting. Gere's character, even though he killed the AP, it feels impotent somehow. Like Lane had already killed a part of Gere before that ever went down.

They are together at the end. I wouldn't really call it reconciled. They are held together by the murder.

Beyond the murder, I think about this situation, and how you could possibly heal it if the story went on. To me, the adultery itself, it's like getting kicked out of the Garden of Eden. You can't go back if you do something like that.

Maybe if Lane is willing to let Gere work through everything, takes complete responsibility, talks through it again and again... it's still going to take years. As we all have found here. That's also with a cheater who does ALL the work. Which hardly anyone gets. Even those who have reconciled here.

My case, I had a blindside divorce to leave to be with AP. Some say that is better. It eliminates some problems and creates others. In the end, the ex didn't love me enough to want to stay together. That hurts. There weren't problems in the relationship or the marriage except for the love. I had the relationship skills, the essentials, otherwise. But the hurt comes from having someone who couldn't even care enough to try to make it work.

It would be interesting to ask some of the WS whether they feel they were or still are abusers, in particular some of those who claimed their cheating was a response to an abusive or controlling spouse.

Few seem to have the insight that it was most likely them, the cheaters, who actually caused most pre-affair problems, including being negligent and abusive.

I do think the cheating was abuse.

I do not think I am still an abuser.

I do believe that a lot of the problems in our pre-A marriage were caused by me because I didn't speak up, I didn't stand up for certain things, I didn't hold a spot for myself. This led to resentments that I wasn't even aware I had.

So, yes, I agree with all of what you said.

I do not agree that our pain is offset with fond memories. Many times, as you aptly point out we find out more about the AP and realize we were played like a fiddle. And, I know in reality we should never have been on the field playing. My point is when it all comes down to it many of us learn the hard way that we were used, we humiliated and dishonored ourselves. We ruined our marriages.

Again, I do not seek your sympathy or your empathy. I simply believe that even unremorseful cheaters continue to bring consequences on themselves. Noone wins anything by cheating.

I don't know what your Ex-wife's consequences are, perhaps she hasn't experienced them yet. But, in my opinion noone escapes it. One way or another what ever is broken in the person who did the cheating either has to go through the pain of the fixing it, or the pain of living out patterns and never learning from them.

I agree with the other posters who said that R does require empathy. I do not believe it has to excuse what happened or consider it not abuse. People who truly R (not just staying married) are typically with a WS who is no longer abusing them and understands deeply that they did abuse them in the past and that they are there through nothing short of grace. Grace to me is when a gift is given undeserved. Redemption means that you will commit to living your life in a way that is the closest way possible of earning that grace.

The irony in that is the WS has to also put the shame away in order to become that wholesome person. You can't take it forward with you if you are going to stand up to be who your BS needs.

Keep in mind that there are other versions of infidelity other than sexual. A common one is financial infidelity, where a WS spends inordinate amounts of the family money on trifles that the family cannot afford, which threatens the financial stability of the family.

I often think of that as an analogy when thinking of sexual infidelity. Like sexual infidelity, financial infidelity often has its roots in deep-seated issues within the emotional core of the cheating spouse.

Criminalizing this doesn't do society good in the big picture. Why should the taxpayers pick up the tab for a prosecution and incarceration of such a person, when the individual with the first-line ability to control the amount of damage inflicted (by leaving the marriage) is the betrayed spouse?

Criminalizing this doesn't do society good in the big picture. Why should the taxpayers pick up the tab for a prosecution and incarceration of such a person, when the individual with the first-line ability to control the amount of damage inflicted (by leaving the marriage) is the betrayed spouse?

Well, marriage rates are going down. Childbirth rates are going down. Apparently, rates of sexual activity are going down as well. Is our decades long grand experiment in divorce tolerance, affair tolerance working?

As a divorced BS, marriage kind of seems like a bad investment at this point. I want to be nice to a spouse, to love, but the odds that I wind up with some bad, monstrous situation seem uncomfortably high. But I have no doubt that the grand experiment will continue.

Is our decades long grand experiment in divorce tolerance

What experiment with divorce tolerance are you talking about? Because my understanding of history doesn't include anything like that. The modern, so-called "no fault" divorce was create to end a century-long "experiment" with spousal abuse/spousal rape tolerance. It was created because women previously had no effective escape from abusive husbands.

Is our decades long grand experiment in divorce tolerance, affair tolerance working?

Divorce SHOULD be tolerated. I think it is an advsnce in our society. Previously, someone who was abused - they were not encouraged to leave. Of someone was in a bad marriage, they endured it. This is a good thing.

And affair tolerqnce? I don't think we are more tolerant of affairs. Peole used go view divorce as a very bad thing. Now they don't. They view cheating as the bigger betrayal. Women previously didn't cheat because they didn't ha e the opportunity. Men cheating and thwir wives had to put up with it. I do think there are some people eho now say " cheating is natural" - this is new. BUT, most adults in the US now view cheating as the worst. So the "cheating is normal" thing is a result of people being far more anti cheating than previously.

modern, so-called "no fault" divorce was create to end a century-long "experiment" with spousal abuse/spousal rape tolerance. It was created because women previously had no effective escape from abusive husbands.

Exactly. But also. My parents divorced when our state was still at-fault. It was incredibly hard, because it meant one had to PROVE fault. What if you can't prove it? What if you're just really unhappy? Now, it is problematic when cheating leads to divorce and the chewted-on person cannot use it to their benefit in the door e. But I think at-fault made doctor e too hard for many people.

Also. I don't see why it is bad that marriage rates are falling. If someone knows marriage doesn't work for them, that is GOOD. I think there is a conflict: on the one hand, when you are married, there is really a push to stay married, which can mean that when things are bad you stick with it, and things improve. Without marriage, one might have quit. Another thing, though, is that some people stay marriedeven when things are really bad, just because they are married. I think for a lot of people, marriage helps with commitment. But for many people, they are 100% committed without marriage. And for some people, they are not truly committed wothin their marriage.

What experiment with divorce tolerance are you talking about? Because my understanding of history doesn't include anything like that. The modern, so-called "no fault" divorce was create to end a century-long "experiment" with spousal abuse/spousal rape tolerance. It was created because women previously had no effective escape from abusive husbands.

Is it working? Do you have statistics to back it up?

Let's set aside for the moment the fact that except for lacking the physical strength to inflict damage, women are just as abusive in marriages as men are.

Let's also set aside the vast number of marriages that are terminated, 75% by women, that have nothing to do with actual abuse.

Women who divorce, or have children while never being married, frequently enter relationships with new men whom they do not marry. These relationships, statistically, are MORE likely to be abusive to women and children then marriages are.

So I'd actually like to see evidence that a society that encourages divorce more, makes it easier, is actually better.

If someone knows marriage doesn't work for them, that is GOOD. I think there is a conflict: on the one hand, when you are married, there is really a push to stay married, which can mean that when things are bad you stick with it, and things improve.

Marriage only works for me if there is a considerable level of dedication.

There is ALWAYS someone else. There is no way, no way that I can be all things to one person. Neither can my spouse to me.

My level of dedication no longer has a place in modern marriage. Anyone can leave at any time. I'm not going to sign a lifetime lease, and expect to honor it, when all around me people are breaking their supposed lifetime leases with no repercussions. I see the world I live in. I won't be marrying again. Message delivered loud and clear.

Criminalize? Obviously not. But some level of reform may be in order. The alienation of affection lawsuit has actually been deployed recently and garnered some headlines. It's more a symbolic act, but what a symbol! More states could adopt alienation of affection laws that gave faithful spouses some recourse to force essentially a "victim impact statement" and it would probably deter some adulterers.

It's real easy. You cheat, you leave with the shirt on your back. Don't even think about alimony. Child custody presumed at 75/25 to the non-cheaters favor. Split assets 80/20 to the non-cheaters favor. It's REAL simple to put some teeth in the law without going into "criminalizing". Shoot, IMHO, I should be able to get "alimony" from the OM, that would give some guys pause before they go for a roll in the hay with a married woman.

Let's also set aside the vast number of marriages that are terminated, 75% by women, that have nothing to do with actual abuse.

You know I didn't know this until Thumos said something about it the other day.

To what are we attributing this upheaval to?

Personally, I think it's women went to work, started getting better education, better jobs. I know in my generation the moms were all chanting to us girls about how we needed to become successful so we didn't have to rely on what a man does.

So, women had to evolve into this other role, but the majority of us over the age of say 40 or maybe a little younger...we got to keep all the other roles. I know personally I routinely slept 4 or 5 hours a night so I could have it all...the career, be there for the kids, be a "good wife", do all the housework, grocery shopping, majority of kid hauling, cooking, paying the bills, etc.

I see the younger generation doing this better than we did. I can see the evolution of the women going to work finally catching up to marital roles. Young women have boundaries. They don't see the traditional things as "their job" any more. It actually gives me hope for the next generation of marriages.

This isn't really a statement about infidelity. I don't think there are good reasons for that. But, I do think the reasons for women initiating divorce at such a rate is it is hard for some of us to see a different paradigm. To have created a different view of the role we were to have. For me, I completely abandoned myself far before I got to the point of wanting to abandon my husband.

And, I am not saying that my wanting a divorce was his fault. It was mine. I am not saying that those divorces are on the men for not helping more. I don't think that's really the case. I think women come in with this idea of being superwoman and they get to a point that their resentments make their husbands seem to be a liability more than an asset. That echo of "you did like your mom said and can take care of yourself".

I guess the only thing that leads me back to is if we went back to the old way, people would probably stay married more but it would be out of necessity. Necessity wasn't a happier time. So many of the women in our family wasted the best part of their lives with men who felt superior to them because they made the money and women were something else they had to take care of.

Where we need to go, and I see it more with this generation now is not defining being married as giving up your own journey. We fill all our time up with and define ourselves by these roles. If we could just stop for a second and see that reworking our efforts and our priorities the marriage can become rewarding again. I really think the shift of women divorcing is that women have long needed to redefine what a good wife, mom, and career woman looks like. We are square pegs that don't fit in that round hole any more because we have the same demands our fathers had in their work force. The resentments we hold are almost inherited rather than just gained through our own experience of marriage.

There is some debate as to whether women are shouldering more of the duties, hiking. Factor in that males, on average, work more hours and fo the bulk of the home repairs and landscaping etc. and things are more equal.

In my own case, a typical day when my kids were young started with getting them up and dressed, making breakfast, packing lunches, getting them bundled up and in their car seats to drive th err m to preschool. I would, often, visit them at lunch. I took them to 95% of their DDT doctor appointments( and one was severely disabled and I'll a lot).

I would work( like be in trial), rush to pick them up from daycare, make dinner, do dishes, bathe tem, read to them, sing with them, get them to sleep.

Then, somewhere between midnight and 2, my XW would blow in, often drunk, to regale me with description of the physique of the guy she was with.

The boys often did not let eyes on her for 3-4 days at a time.

So, shouldering just about all the duties still did not make my XW any less inclined to cheat leading to divorce.

Stinger,

I didn't say all.

And, I think you still took that as a criticism towards men/husbands. It isn't. It's more many of us woman are raised with conflicting information. The moms say "get an education and a good job so you don't have to rely on a man" but then we watched them cleaning, doing everyone's laundry, cooking, etc.

There are many reasons for divorce, I have lots of divorced female friends. I would say of the females I know, most of them precipitated the divorces. A few of them divorced cheaters. And the other handful? The issues I am talking about - feeling they had a role to fill and no longer interested in filling the role.

In other words, these expectations are ones we put on ourselves. I am sure that there are ones that aren't like that and cheat and/or divorce.

There was never a fair division of labor in our house. We paid for lawncare for as long as I can remember. I was the one who worked longer hours. He took out the trash, and if I could not be around (rarely) he might give the kids a bath and order pizza for dinner. He would watch TV loudly while I spent 3 hours cleaning the house. His interaction with me during that time might have been to hand me a plate so he didn't have to get up to put it away, or dry humping me from behind in the kitchen because I dared to bend down to put something in the dishwasher.

Now, did I have a say in all that? Yes. If I resented him for it, that's because I didn't ask for more or speak up more.

I don't think I actually started to resent it until he opened the new business a year an a half prior to the affair. Not only was I still doing all the domestic stuff, the job, and the last kid at home, but he wanted me to help with the business too. I did so at first thinking it would be short term, and the longer I did it the more he complained if I dropped the ball on something. He treated me like an employee. If I wasn't willing to talk about his business issues at 11pm at night when I was also trying to clean up the kitchen so I could go to bed, then it was a huge issue.

Does that deserve cheating? No. Nothing does in my opinion. Did it deserve a divorce that I was starting to want? Maybe?? Can he read my mind? NO.

Again, my theory was based on what I know about many females in my life. We take a lot on, and we were taught not to complain. We think that we have a specific role, and that if we worked a bit harder we can do it. We do this until we are depleted if we are not careful.

Are there men who do this as well? Yes.

I tend to think the nurturer aspect that I have as a woman has been both an asset and a disaster. Learning to balance that and give some of that nurturing to myself is a journey I am on that will allow me to have more happiness, peace, and contentment. Which in turn, in theory, should make me a better wife and partner? (jury is out) But, it's a weird place to be - trying to change the whole dynamics of roles with someone that you cheated on. I have just started working towards that more in earnest, so far I hate it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:48 PM, October 16th (Friday)]

Personally, I think it's women went to work, started getting better education, better jobs. I know in my generation the moms were all chanting to us girls about how we needed to become successful so we didn't have to rely on what a man does.

Yes, cheap, effective, and available birth control was a game changer. Being able to plan children around life, instead of life around your children opened so many doors. You could go to/finish college, marry someone you loved and were compatible with instead of the person who impregnated you, find a career that brought you purpose. Or you could do the SAHM thing if that was the path you wanted; it is a noble endeavor as well. Choice is great.

Hikingout,

I appreciate your comments.

My understanding is that you are saying that women are imposing these roles, these duties, on themselves. Then rebelling against the self imposed roles. At least in some cases.

In my case, my ex did not work, does not work, except for her hobby job. She never did my laundry, we did the dishes equally. We had a cleaning service. Since she didn't work, really I did more of the housework.

I do have to say that "man does a lot of work around the house" is not very important in keeping women happy. "Choreplay" is BS. It's a nice thing to do, but women know lots of nice men who they have no interest in having as partners. So it's not very important. A good supplementary thing to do as a partner, but it's never going to get a woman to sleep with me.

I HO basically nailed what most experts on the subject believe.

"I think that marriage as an institution has been a little bit slow to catch up with expectations for gender equality," Michael Rosenfeld, an associate professor of sociology at Stanford University who authored the ASA study, said in a statement. "Wives still take their husbands' surnames, and are sometimes pressured to do so. Husbands still expect their wives to do the bulk of the housework and the bulk of the childcare."

"If the wife makes more money but is still expected to do more of the housework and childcare, what's the point?"

Now the question, why are men in less fulfilling marriages more likely to put up with it? I think it could still be traditional cultural ideas that society still imposes. Men feel they may not get as much access to the children or lose more in a divorce. For example, even if the there is no spousal support, couples make equal, and children are involved. The man is still more likely to move to the apartment and the children will stay in the house for stability.

Also, the idea of courtship is still influenced by culture. I believe men still have this pressure to compete for mating rights. Instead of having to go out to start over, claim new territory, and getting gored by the metaphorical resident bull, it is easier to put up with a less than satisfactory marriage.

You all are touching on very complicated issues that somewhat plague me. I had a mother who was not allowed to attend college because it was "not for girls." I was the first one in my full, extended family to get a college degree. But somehow I still...

Did more child care

Read more bedtime stories (and full bedtime novels when they got a little older)

Made more chocolate milk

Bandaged more cuts

Sat on the bench at more parks

Then

Cleaned more

Shopped more

Cooked more

Got up more during the night

Worked longer hours

Took more naps at my desk to avoid falling asleep while driving home

Felt more parental guilt over everything

Made more money

Still make more money

But it has been hard, hard, hard as hell

As a long time girlfriend at work always says, "You know what we need, OIN? We need wives!"

I'm not saying my H has not had his own difficulties and hurts--he has. Society is generous like that, plenty of pain and sacrifice to go around. But part of thinking about me, him and our journey is thinking about the dynamics of marriage. I thought going to college would protect me or open doors, but it simply added to my "opportunities," a modern day euphemism for extra responsibilities. On bad days, I blame my H who also works hard. On really bad days, I blame everyone who has ever driven a car, voted, eaten at a restaurant, filed a lawsuit, chewed gum, gotten married, or dared to get in my way at the grocery store.

After almost getting divorced I've realized divorce is about whose life will be less fucked up when it's settled; there are no winners. Same with marriage, raising kids, staying single, and being human. It's not how far you fall, it's how high you bounce. Because you are gonna fall.

I've been feeling a little sorry for myself lately, and then my friend mentioned that his 22 year-old son is showing some very serious signs of schizophrenia. I thought to myself, "There are many types of shit sandwich that life can serve, so maybe it's not actually a shit sandwich after all. It's definitely not what I ordered, but maybe I need to look again. We need to try to find the silver lining in life because this is the only one we're getting."

I think you all make good points. It's just not fair. But so little is.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:58 PM, October 16th (Friday)]