SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Our responses crossed.

For me I needed to have my questions answered. The trickle truthing has left damage for over 40 years. All I get is that was such a long time ago, I cannot remember. Just recently I got another tidbit of info that causes new issues.

This is the first personal thing of you I have seen on this thread OT, so thank you for sharing it.

First, I am very sorry you've been struggling with tt for that amount of time. The tt is absolutely soul-killing - I only dealt with it for a little under a year and can't imagine what damage 4 decades of it would do.

Second, if you're dealing with a recent revelation, then I understand better why you're stuck on the just compensation thing. Because new revelations have a tendency to arrest healing or reset it entirely.

So what were the new things? And what issues are they causing you?

And saying this with kindness OT, but this thread was started and kept going for all this time as generalities and hypotheticals and started on a topic that was sure to polarize. This share you just did here on page 18 leads me to think that you are struggling with something specific to you. Why not share what you're grappling with in your situation and how that has made you feel in regards to compensation? Because imho, that's a totally different conversation.

OR that somehow this isn't actually how women mate select.

Olefaction. Basically, we smell them out based on having a MHC (major histocompatibility complex) different from our own. Of course, I'm not saying that this overwhelms our higher functions and that we can't reject based on other aspects in our compendium of data, nor is this the only data point of assessment. We may not make a selection based solely on how a man smells, but in the vast majority, a woman won't marry without thinking he smells really nice.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 9:57 AM, February 27th (Saturday)]

Hikingitout, how does a WW get her BH to believe that she

did not lose the weight for her OM?

How does a WW not understand how much her BH would

appreciate her losing that weight for her BH?

Why can't a WW tell her BH that she understands his visual

need to have a fit looking wife so why we both eat healthy

go to the gym and look our best for each other?

How does a WW not understand how her BH feels when he

says you did it for the OM but you will not do it for me. I can

she a BH not wanting to drink to excess or do drugs with his

WW because she these things with her OM. And even if the

BH wanted his WW to do these things with him I can see a

WW refusing to do these things.

However I see going to the gym is not asking his WW to do

something that is bad.

WW cleans the bath rooms, WW does not to do that yet she

does it because it has to be done.

Why can't WW just put going to the gym on the same things

that must be done list and get it done?

Oldtruck why do you think it's OK to say things like "women"? Last I checked every person is different just as every man is different.

Just because one woman may do or say something does NOT mean another woman will do/say likewise (same for men).

Each of us has free volition. If a WW cheats on their spouse and did things for their AP (sexually, lost weight, etc), and they're now not doing these same things for the BS, yes you can be upset about it but instead of talking about if it's fair or not or pressuring the WW to do these things you do have an option if it isn't happening.....you can leave the marriage for crying out loud.

Who wants their cheating spouse to be pressured or feel guilty to do these things? If they can't do it on their own free volition you can either accept it or leave.

I can't speak for HikingOut, but that's still sexual objectification. It's about being an object to look at, not a person with feelings.

Well, this has been an interesting one!

Since most BS's weighing in seem to agree that there's nothing that can truly make it up to the BS, I have to ask what is the deal with this whole 'just compensation' thing? I'm genuinely curious why you seem to be so fixated on this idea, especially since your situation is fine.

Just compensation doesn't mean "make it right". If God forbid, by some slip of concentration, I veered over the line and hit someone in my car, hurting them and killing a family member in the car, there's nothing that I can do to unhurt or bring the person killed back to life. "Just compensation" will be entirely monetary (or perhaps putting me in jail if I've done something grossly negligent). One doesn't fix the other, in fact, in my example, me handing you money for my accidental actions has NOTHING to do with the death of your friend in the car. Handing you money to fix your car does, but not for the injuries to your psyche, the people who were killed, or anything else. It's what we consider "the best we can do" to try to make the people that we hurt, even accidentally, "whole" from the experience.

That's where I disagree vehemently with "you just have to do you" line of thought about this. Imagine if I'm standing at the accident site, and walk over to the car where someone just died and told the driver "I'm going to go take a drivers ed class until I get better at this". Yeah, sorry, but that's NOT going to help the person I hurt one bit. It might be a good idea, in fact, it probably is, but that's to prevent from hurting other people, or hitting this poor family again with my car, NOT for the damage that I've already caused.

After an A, similarly, there are two types of damages. One type is the type "you hit me and now I'm injured for life" type, and the other is the "Don't hit me again" type. The 2nd type, that's where things like SI, psychologists, transparency, and a whole lot of other stuff comes into play. From my example, it's making your a better driver moving forward so you don't wind up hurting people again.

But the first type is where "just compensation" comes into the discussion. No, you can't un-have an affair. But you can do things to try to salve the wounds that you caused. Of course it's never going to be perfect, but you can make the damage a lot more bearable by doing certain things. And, relating to this thread, some of those things could be "stay as in shape for me as you did the AP" (for either sex). I mean, it kind of boggles my mind that's being seen as an unreasonable "compensation", it's kind of "the least I could do" type thing in my eyes.

No, of course it doesn't make it "OK". It's not a fix, it's a band aid. But when you've intentionally inflicted a horrible wound on someone else that will leave them with lasting pain, perhaps a "band aid" isn't all that unreasonable an ask?!

Why can't WW just put going to the gym on the same things that must be done list and get it done?

The painful but most logical answer here, (and OldTruck, you may remember, I was in exactly this situation, not with weight, but with sex) is "Because you/I aren't worth the effort".

[This message edited by Rideitout at 10:22 AM, February 27th (Saturday)]

Booyah, I never heard a man say I will not marry her because

she is a factory worker, waitress, minimum wage earner.

Most men prefer a woman to not be taller but have married

taller women.

Never heard men complain that a woman is too short unless

she is under 5'1".

Yes these are generalized statements. Though they are held

to be true because most often this is the way things go down.

An exception to the rule is just that an exception to the norm.

Hikingitout, how does a WW get her BH to believe that she did not lose the weight for her OM?

Because she didn't do it "for" the OM. In these instances, the weight loss, prettying up, etc are a symptom of serious underlying brokenness and insecurity. She 'got fit' because she had a pathological need for validation, no matter what getting that validation cost.

Just like my xwh didn't spout poetry and declarations of love at his ap because he felt that "love" (indeed he did not because he's incapable of it). It was symptomatic of his need for validation, ANY validation at ANY cost. And the only kind of person who would believe his bullshit lines was a fucked-up kid and he used her and manipulated her to get that validation. Essentially everyone around him was collateral damage to his internal brokenness.

That's what I said pages ago now. That "getting fit for the om" wasn't done from a healthy place in the ww and truly wasn't done FOR the om at all. So a BH demanding that "get fit for me to show you value me" from the ww is not addressing the underlying insecurities in the ww that led her to A, it's just asking that ww to seek the external validation from BH instead. Still not healthy. Tho a BH may feel initially mollified, imho unless the ww fixes the broken part behind that it will not be a lasting fix and will eventually lead to more dysfunction and resentment.

I love when women insult men as aggressive bullies framing the opinion a man utters as "telling women what they want".

IDK ... a man states his narrow opinions as facts, gets called out, and then he claims he's been insulted. Sure. Makes sense. Not good sense, but sense.

Why discuss the ideas when you can simply insult, gaslight, and strawman the opinion a man is making?

Ah, yes. Then accuses others of doing what he's doing.

Hmm ... looks like DARVO to me.

If you want to have any hope of knowing how women choose mates or dates, create a random sample, design a survey that's as objective as possible, and do a study.

*****

It is doing, giving the BS what they need to feel that the WS is providing amends to make up for their affair.

OT,

Gently, if you talked about your needs in general terms, I think it’s very possible your W did not understand what you wanted. Given the nature of your posts, I think it’s very possible that you are not clear when you communicate.

Recovering from being betrayed needs the BS to get into the nitty-gritty. Generalizations create distance, and they are not conducive to healing. It’s all very well to say, ‘You need to treat me better than you treated the ap,’ but one needs to get very specific for the WS to know exactly what treatment caught your attention. Remember, WSes don’t think straight about their As, their aps, their Ms, or, especially, their BSes.

To heal, BSes need to know and reveal themselves. Without that, healing is hampered.

"Because you/I aren't worth the effort"

it’s not about the BS not being worth the effort, it’s about the wayward not feeling worth the effort with themselves enough to change/heal/address certain things to become healthy. A person lets themselves down before they let others down - to become better for others they must first learn to become better for themselves.

No, of course it doesn't make it "OK". It's not a fix, it's a band aid. But when you've intentionally inflicted a horrible wound on someone else that will leave them with lasting pain, perhaps a "band aid" isn't all that unreasonable an ask?!

I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you. I agree with you Rio.

Of course a bandaid is not an unreasonable request. And that bandaid can encompass any number of things for any number of reasons.

But just mho, unless the WS works very hard to fix what is broken in THEMSELVES, then that bandaid will just be covering up a festering wound that never heals. Not a path to lasting happiness really.

The painful but most logical answer here, (and OldTruck, you may remember, I was in exactly this situation, not with weight, but with sex) is "Because you/I aren't worth the effort".

Or maybe it's because the ws isn't capable of fixing what's broken in them and facing up to their own demons and is thusly really incapable of the kind of selflessness that truly loving another person requires.

Or yeah, they don't think the BS is worth the effort. And in those cases? Honestly just divorce because that will lead to nothing but heartache for the BS In those scenarios, as I know from first-hand experience. Nothing was worth staying with my xwh who was never going to value me enough because he was too entrenched in his own brokenness and selfishness.

And saying this with kindness OT, but this thread was started and kept going for all this time as generalities and hypotheticals and started on a topic that was sure to polarize. This share you just did here on page 18 leads me to think that you are struggling with something specific to you. Why not share what you're grappling with in your situation and how that has made you feel in regards to compensation? Because imho, that's a totally different conversation.

Had you started here, I think it would be a really productive conversation oldtruck. Unfortunately even after saying it’s not about weight you continue with this topic.

Hikingitout, how does a WW get her BH to believe that she

did not lose the weight for her OM?

How does a WW not understand how much her BH would

appreciate her losing that weight for her BH?

Why can't a WW tell her BH that she understands his visual

need to have a fit looking wife so why we both eat healthy

go to the gym and look our best for each other?

How does a WW not understand how her BH feels when he

says you did it for the OM but you will not do it for me. I can

she a BH not wanting to drink to excess or do drugs with his

WW because she these things with her OM. And even if the

BH wanted his WW to do these things with him I can see a

WW refusing to do these things.

However I see going to the gym is not asking his WW to do

something that is bad.

WW cleans the bath rooms, WW does not to do that yet she

does it because it has to be done.

Why can't WW just put going to the gym on the same things

that must be done list and get it done?

The above quote is still very focused on appearance.

I really wish you could focus on what is really the crux of what is bothering you. You are sidestepping the real issues by stirring the pot with generalizations and offensive statements.

Perhaps you should step back and try to figure out what is going on within yourself and talk about that. I think you would find an amazing amount of support with that approach rather than talking in circles and generalizations. I honestly think the term “Just Compensation” is clearing things up. You can’t ask for it and also say it doesn’t exist.

I think what you are looking for is acceptance. That’s a difficult place to get to that takes work from both partners. So again I will ask, what were you really hoping to get from this thread?

To the ladies on this thread,

Allow me to ask a devil's advocate type question. Would you agree that there is a certain percentage (don't think its that big, but significant enough for men to notice) of women that say that there are qualities in a partner that they want, but in practice, they go after partners that are the complete opposite of those qualities?

I apologize if this question is too generalized. I do agree with some of the points Apparition made a few posts back. I don't agree with the lists, because I don't like putting people in rigid boxes. But, I will admit, I have seen the phenomenon that he describe unfold.

Well oldtruck, each situation would be different. Explaining the effort made sense to my husband.

Look, having been married for decades, I have been different sizes, the biggest the year after our baby. I had been in bed rest for a while and had no muscle tone whatsoever.

My husband still had great sex with me. He still wanted the lights on. It’s kind of hard to think about “okay you love me for me” to be turning around and saying “oh that was bull crap, now that you cheated I am going to say what I really want and that is for you to change your body so sex looks like a porno”?

That’s why this is confusing. I get most people prefer an attractive spouse, or at least one who takes some pride in their appearance. That’s a form of respect of themselves. We are attracted to people who respect themselves.

I tend to believe if the ws is putting all their effort into recovery and then reconciliation, there is enough there to restore attraction if the bs is also interested in repairing. If the bs didn’t like who the ws was to begin with because she was overweight, why even go through R with them? Marriage is so many things, why would this be the dealbreaker?

I don’t know- I tend to think recompense is more about showing your spouse how important they are to you. I do not equate that with getting a six pack. Hell, I don’t even know what it would take a woman my age to even have a six pack. I am active and healthy, that just isn’t on my radar if something I want or something my h is expecting in order to be able to stomach loving me or having sex with me. I honestly think if his focus was only in that it would be a huge turn off for me, and maybe a dealbreaker.

I understand better things like he is asking me to give him more attention, put more effort in our sex life, be more courteous or less selfish or any of those things that have direct impact on marital satisfaction. I just don’t really see this one. Sorry.

Allow me to ask a devil's advocate type question. Would you agree that there is a certain percentage (don't think its that big, but significant enough for men to notice) of women that say that there are qualities in a partner that they want, but in practice, they go after partners that are the complete opposite of those qualities?

Well, yeah.

I’ve also seen men who choose to marry a slim redhead but seek out porn and/or OW who are brunette with huge boobs and butts.

I don’t then assume that all or most men are like that.

There are infact female rapists murderers sickos etc etc and in addition to that all humans have the capacity to be shallow money hungry status seeking or pathological narcs noone is saying otherwise

Lets not talk about broad recriminations against women or men . It serves little purpose , if something about your story seems like a class action suit please make it clear to us where you are coming from so we can put your thoughts in context.

Here is the gist of it - a persons body is not a prop to serve another persons need for sex status esteem etc . Every persons body serves their own needs .

Also noone should stay with spouses who they cant respect love or forgive because you are digging two graves with that strategy

More than anything else i hope everyone can find a path to live in dignity and if you start with that pre requisite everything else falls into place

Hikingitout, a wife lets the weight up on her, most men would

still find her attractive. Though they would wish she would

lose it.

Men do not find their pregnant wives fat, just pregnant. After

giving birth that extra weight is being fat. Though they will

still find their wife attractive and they will wait a year or two

for it to gradually disappear.

Men also accept that as people age it becomes hard to stay slim.

They will be content with their wives trying to make the effort

to not gain excessive weight.

Normal life events.

An affair is not a normal life event. The BH response from an

affair cannot expected to be normal.

I’ve also seen men who choose to marry a slim redhead but seek out porn and/or OW who are brunette with huge boobs and butts.

I don’t then assume that all or most men are like that.

Men cannot custom order wives.

Men have their want in a wife list.

Men marry the best looking woman they can that meets the

what they want in a wife list.

So they did not marry the blonde with the double D's because

she was 50lbs overweight. He wanted a blonde but he could

not seal the deal with any blond that was not overweight.

Even with an A cup blonde.

Would you agree that there is a certain percentage (don't think its that big, but significant enough for men to notice) of women that say that there are qualities in a partner that they want, but in practice, they go after partners that are the complete opposite of those qualities?

Absolutely. I have friends that do this and I have #realtalk with them about how focusing on superficial stuff is really damaging them. On the flip side I've had that same conversation with guys that want a "good" woman (in this context meaning loyal and loving and honest and all those intangible things that matter), but keep going after the shallow gold-diggy types that have none of those intangible qualities to their credit.

My theory is a lot of the picker problems go back to childhood and foo crap. I know that's definitely true for me.

But the earlier supposition is that ALL women do that and that's just not true. Just as it isn't true that EVERY guy is that way.

Men do not find their pregnant wives fat, just pregnant. After

giving birth that extra weight is being fat.

That's not how biology works and I'm sorry but this is SO dismissive of the insane amount of stress pregnancy puts on a woman's body.

Just compensation is important to all BS, BW or BH does not

make a difference.

Just compensation is the WS providing amends to their BS

to repair the damage from the PA that their WS had with their

AP.

The PA sex cannot be undone. Just as a poster said you crash

into some ones car the insurance can repair the car, though

if a person was killed in that car that life cannot be brought

back. Regretting that your driving killed some one cannot

bring them back to life.

Regretting that you had affair sex cannot get that sex to never

of happened. That PA damage the marriage. Though as the

car was wrecked and repaired the marriage after a PA can be

repaired.

The car cannot get fixed with regrets. I should of not driven

that fast in the fog.

The marriage cannot get repaired with regrets. I should of not

fucked the OM.

The marriage can only be repaired with making real amends.

Stop having sex with the OM is not doing anything special

for the BH. So that action is not making amends. There is

nothing being done with enough merit to call it just

compensation.

I use weight because I wanted to use it as an example of

going past doing the minimum amends such as just stop

fucking the OM?

I want people to let go of the weight issue and talk about

what a just consequence is. If they believe in JC and if they

can give their own examples of what a JC is.

All they can do is say I am fat shaming, no man is to tell me

what to do with my body. Or the title of the thread was off.

So my challenge:

Do you believe in just compensation.

If you do then what are your forms of just compensation.

It is so easy to say fat shame and it's my body then do the

work to discuss just compensation and how does a WS

provide JC.