SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As for that cosmo list ...So ? Humans like their partners to be rich pretty sexy etc etc as a wish list whats the prob with that The question is what happens 20 yrs down the line when the hottie you married ages gets ill gets poor etc - if you see other people as props in your life that give you status you can't possibly continue the relationship because your expectations are pathological .

Mentally healthy people however marry the people they love and continue to love them for better or for worse .

Diff note : what wonderful responses this awful thread has generated . Ill have to read it all again

Who the fuck said anything about being "owed" something? I would give anything if my marriage was in a better place. Our primary problem is when I was motivated to work on the M, she was too busy blameshifting, doing damage control, and trying to rugsweep everything else. She did, and said, a bunch of really absurd things. This lying and deception "after" really has made R horrendous, for both of us actually.

My WW intercepted a answering machine message from the OBS warning that something may be going on between our spouses. WW calls AP and tells him to "get your wife under control". He took that as beat the shit out of her. He put his hand on the left side of his wife's face and shoved her head through drywall. I found out about this because the OBS later showed me the police evidence pics. The white of her right eye was blood red and the whole side of her face was swollen, dark purple and yellow. She had stiches in her lip and at her hairline. It was pretty horrific. My wife knew of this incident, and fucked romeo a few times afterwards, including the goodbye fuck where I was out of town and she dumped our kids off with her mother overnight. She ended it 2 months later. For some reason this bothers me as much (or more) than the rest of the A bullshit. He stalked her after she called it off and she was terrified because she knew what he was capable of. Should I feel sorry for her? And is disdain to contempt as peckish is to famished? If so, I definitely have a little disdain for her.

Now she's remorseful, full of shame, willing to do just about anything, etc., and I just don't really give a fuck. I originally came to SI to try to see if I could fix things. The more I read here, the less I think R is a viable solution for me.

And hell yes, I should have left a long time ago. That's really clear to me now. I had some childhood baggage with my parents' divorce and some stuff that happened as a result that scared me to death and kept me here far too long. My own issues kept me in the marriage. I waited far too long to go to therapy too. And I don't think she "owes" me anything sexually either. I haven't initiated sex of any sort in years and anything she does sexually with me is of her own free will. I do not coerce or force her in any way. I've never hit, pushed, shoved or physically hurt her in any way. There is no "winner" in infidelity either. Every single person involved in this shitshow has had their lives severely impacted in major ways.

I stay now primarily because of finances. I want to retire on schedule and not have to significantly alter my lifestyle. I also enjoy our granddaughter very much and I don't want to lose time with her either.

Hiking

I appreciate what you are saying and its quite possible for either partner to like stuff thats way out there like a rape fantasy etc which society does not need to weigh in on

Fun sex /good sexuality / positive sexuality / healthy sexuality starts with enthusiastic willingness not from guilt obligation emotional abuse

Its hard for me to know how sexuality is supposed to feel after an affair but it seems to me the same men who dont respect women to start with are the most likely to struggle with healthy sexuality after infidelity too .

That list, man. Really though? BrewX is right. That really is the equivalent of "every man wants a swimsuit model". That's not real life. That's maybe the character in a romance novel or something. 50 shades of gray dude or whatever. Given that it's year 2021, I can be female and pay my own bills and worry about my own status without having to hitch myself to someone else's.

Men are somehow seen, and clearly being cast in this conversation, as the more superficial of the sexes. I think men and women are equally superficial and equally deep, depending on their moods and maturity.

Now this part I can agree with, though some are casting themselves as such in this conversation. Neither gender qualifies as better people than the other. We have the same flaws.

Will respond later in more detail but Buck your initial posts reflected a very different version of who you are . Im glad you explained

Buck - I want to just say, it's not that I question whether or not you suffered through a raw deal. I get that. It's more when you talk about things, you tend to show a lack of remorse over your own cheating. You come across as someone who feels entitled to how you reacted.

When you say things like "I affaired up, and my wife knows it and it causes her to be insecure" it says to me that you have not had a lot of reflection on your own affairs. You did not affair up, you had relationships with women who have no respect for the sanctity of marriage, who did not care about what you might lose, they have no respect for the idea you had a wife. You still idealize one of the women as the one who got away.

Your blockage, I believe is you have spent 5 years cheating on your wife and telling yourself the same justified stories as any other cheaters tell themselves. Your blockage isn't just her affair, it's your affairs and the cognitive dissonance you have about those things. Getting a connection back with your wife would have to be something you desired and pursued for a long period of time.

There is nothing wrong with not being able to R, or wanting R. But, I think you look for something to change in your circumstances and fail to see that the only thing you can change is yourself. Your wife ruined your marriage, there is no doubt about that. With a scum bag, and I can understand why that's another layer of stuff that is hard to accept. But, you compounded the issue, and are still compounding this issue by being defensive rather than being self-reflective. The latter is the only way that you will R successfully if it is at all possible or on the table.

And, healing from her affair - the only one who can do that is you. I am telling you this not to be mean or nasty to you, but to give you some things to think about in the case that you really would like to see some repair and not just whiteknuckle it to get to your retirement or time with your granddaughter.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:00 PM, February 26th (Friday)]

Now she's remorseful, full of shame, willing to do just about anything, etc., and I just don't really give a fuck. I originally came to SI to try to see if I could fix things. The more I read here, the less I think R is a viable solution for me.

This is a perfectly acceptable view, especially after infidelity. I know for me, it took time for me to get to really knowing that I was not going to be able to R.

And hell yes, I should have left a long time ago. That's really clear to me now. I had some childhood baggage with my parents' divorce and some stuff that happened as a result that scared me to death and kept me here far too long. My own issues kept me in the marriage. I waited far too long to go to therapy too.

Also true for a LOT of people I think. I know that coming from a divorced family definitely influenced my ideas about getting divorced. Just mho, but I think fear plays a huge role in keeping people 'stuck' too.

There is no "winner" in infidelity either. Every single person involved in this shitshow has had their lives severely impacted in major ways.

Word. 100% truth.

And hell yes, I should have left a long time ago. That's really clear to me now. I had some childhood baggage with my parents' divorce and some stuff that happened as a result that scared me to death and kept me here far too long. My own issues kept me in the marriage. I waited far too long to go to therapy too.

Also true for a LOT of people I think. I know that coming from a divorced family definitely influenced my ideas about getting divorced. Just mho, but I think fear plays a huge role in keeping people 'stuck' too.

I agree except I find the first poster to be hypocritical, he often posts pouring scorn on his WW but rarely mentions his 2 affairs. I believe his wife's affair was a few months, his 2 were something like 5 years and he's still emotionally attached to his last AP. I believe that's where all the vitriol comes from through not dealing with his own affairs.

I would give anything if my marriage was in a better place.

Maybe your marriage would be in a better place if you could accept that you're not one jot better than your fWW. In fact, when a person KNOWS what an affair does to their partner and chooses to do it anyway, I find that to be even more unloving than the original affair, more wrong. Most of the time, the WS doesn't really understand the emotional fallout, in the same way that none of us really truly understood this kind of betrayal until it happened to us.

Maybe if you actually attempted the very difficult work of a WS in recovery and really wanted to change the way you are, your marriage might be salvageable. It's certainly not going to improve while you wear your BS hat in such sanctimony, as if you hadn't cheated for six and a half years to your fWW's six months.

When my H cheated it didn't make us even. It made us way worse off.

It's like using a sledgehammer for the headache in your marriage. Maybe you have to actually have an RA to understand how you just increased your problems ten fold.

I believe is you have spent 5 years cheating on your wife and telling yourself the same justified stories as any other cheaters tell themselves.

Yep, he has. A cheater having an RA is no different than any other cheater--"I have been mistreated in this M, in life! I have suffered and sacrificed enough. I am not like other cheaters, I am different! My behaviors are justified." Lol. The t-shirt is in my closet.

You cannot ask your WS to perform in any way to "heal" what they have done to you. We heal ourselves, heal ourselves, heal ourselves, heal ourselves, heal ourselves, heal ourselves! It's called self-esteem. It's yours; nobody gives it to you or takes it away. It may get dinged, but if you have real self-esteem it comes back with or without the WS's participation. F@ck that noise. Nobody is stealing MY self-esteem. It's mine and you don't define me.

Why does this seem like a tough sell for some BH? (Well, they are the ones who get angry at me, not the BW.)

If you are feeling manly or emasculated by your WW's behavior, it's a you issue, not a her issue. It was there before the cheating but wasn't exposed, like a fault line. It's exposed now. You felt good about yourself because your ducks were in a row--good job, hot wife, nice house. But the fault line was there. Once the superficial success is gone, you have to dig deep to realize you are just as valuable and powerful as you were prior. Nothing was taken from you. That's why she doesn't need to do anything to put it back. You are still strong, intelligent, unique, and special.

Needing a WW to be anything other than a better, more honorable person who is working hard in all areas of her life should not be necessary. She is not responsible for the fault line in your foundation. You are.

Buck

Im glad you realize that you arent owed anything sexual not even by your own wife . I wish you had been clearer in your prior posts .

Also your wife sounds shady as all fk . If she fell for a physically abusive sub human like her AP once what makes you think she cant find another loser soon? How will you protect your retirement if she is the one who decides to leave ?

Money is certainly important but its not everything . The only resource even more precious than money is time , if both of you have lost love and respect you are wasting your remaining years on this planet in self imposed hell . Get therapy get healthy forgive her and let her go . Move on to a better life, your grandkids and kids will be just fine with that.

If you are feeling manly or emasculated by your WW's behavior, it's a you issue, not a her issue. It was there before the cheating but wasn't exposed, like a fault line. It's exposed now. You felt good about yourself because your ducks were in a row--good job, hot wife, nice house. But the fault line was there. Once the superficial success is gone, you have to dig deep to realize you are just as valuable and powerful as you were prior. Nothing was taken from you. That's why she doesn't need to do anything to put it back. You are still strong, intelligent, unique, and special.

Needing a WW to be anything other than a better, more honorable person who is working hard in all areas of her life should not be necessary. She is not responsible for the fault line in your foundation. You are.

This needs to be repeated over and over and over!

hikingitout, it not a WW had an affair for 3 months and had

sex 10 times and then her BH now has a RA for 3 years and

had sex 100 times and they are even now.

It is not that to be even the WW has to have another PA for

2 years and 9 months and have sex 90 times with her OM to

be even.

The affair sex can never be undone.

Just compensation is what WW/WH have to provide the

BH/BW what they need to accept that the affair happened.

It can be acts of service, it can be sexual acts, it can be what

ever the BS needs. Maybe the WW did not keep a clean house

before her PA. BH feels and needs a spotless house. So

he tells his WW you had the time to have a PA with the OM.

So you can now use that time to make the house clean enough

to eat off of the floors.

Yes the WW can say I am not your housemaid, mother, slave

or whatever and accept her BH divorcing him.

Hikingitout, talk about errors due to bad writing. I apologize

and will try to clear up my poor writing skills below. I am not

the best at writing and when I rush to put my thoughts down

I get jumbled up without realizing.

hikingitout, a WW had an affair for 3 months and had sex

10 times and then her BH now has a RA for 3 years and had sex

100 times this does not make them even now.

A WW having another PA for 2 years and 9 months and have sex

90 times with her OM to still does not make them even.

For the affair sex can never be undone. Even when the both

the WW and WH have affairs of equal length and had

affair sex an equal number of times with the AP's this still

does not makes things equal between them.

For neither spouse has provided just compensation.

Just compensation is what WW/WH have to provide the

BH/BW what they need to accept that the affair happened.

It can be acts of service, it can be sexual acts, it can be what

ever the BS needs.

Yes the WW can say I am not your housemaid, mother, slave

or whatever and accept her BH divorcing him.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 8:17 PM, February 26th (Friday)]

Since most BS's weighing in seem to agree that there's nothing that can truly make it up to the BS, I have to ask what is the deal with this whole 'just compensation' thing? I'm genuinely curious why you seem to be so fixated on this idea, especially since your situation is fine.

My sincerest apologies if I am coming off too "dog-like".

And now we get to the part of the thread where a man explains to the women what we want in a man, and then tells us that if we say otherwise, we're deluded or lying.

Who had Page 16 in the pool? I know I lost. I was betting on somewhere around 11.

5 & 6 Have no idea what you mean by preselected and status. Clarify please?

Preselection is the idea that a woman believes other women may want the man, that he is valued by others, and often "selected" by some group as a desirable person. He's verified by the community, wide or small. A rock star is the oft used simple example, ideologized and desired making him preselected. Women weren't banging Mick Jagger backstage at the drop of a hat for his intelligence, humor, or anything else. It's not important that he earned being a rock star, what's important is other women believe him a desirable person. Men tend not care much about preselection, if some woman is not desirable, it doesn't matter if your buddy think's she's hot, she's not getting one bit hotter to the man that doesn't find her desirable.

Status is just that, and I'd be surprised any adult exists that doesn't see the hierarchies humans form everywhere around them. If someone is at or near the top of a particular hierarchy, they have status. This is independent of being preselected, this is a position they have earned, professor, etc. Women find this attractive, again men tend not to care.

I don't know about being red pill'd, I suppose I'm unabashedly traditional. That list I took isn't oppressing anyone, it's not a statement that any women is being forced conform, it simply adheres to both my observation of women's choices and the culmination of surveys and data I've seen over my life. Other than my own boys, I could care less about how other men choose to mate select. The whole world of males is not my community. Anyway why shouldn't women be attracted to a hot, tall, wealthy, confident male? Those are positive traits that indicate many positives outcomes for women, good looking children, security, protection.

That said, the list was a counterpoint I saw to a study suggesting women are attracted to these qualities:

1. Smart

2. Makes You Laugh

3. Supports Your Career

4. Makes Effort with Friends and Family

5. Emotionally Intelligent

6. Respects Your Opinions

7. Celebrates your Achievements

9. Shares your Values

It's not that the list is inherently wrong. Many women may value those things, but that's not attraction. Women almost never choose men shorter than themselves, they almost never choose men older, they rarely choose men who earn less, etc., etc. The omission is too glaring to ignore, it's a kind of lie of omission. It reads like a message women are sending to make themselves appear more value oriented and is simply not based on their choices. I'm sure this thread is full of the unicorns, great, good for all of the women that have risen above selecting men for safety, security, and good looking children. Sarcasm aside, I wonder sometimes if BS are less selfish as a group and more value oriented, but that's a whole different topic.

My point wasn't to box any woman in, you do you. My assertion was that most men see this incongruity in the way women behave and what they say. And in the case of a BS they may see this lifetime of incongruity being played out real time in the WW AP selection. If one feels they are selected based on say, wealth, but use to feel they were selected for a wide range of attributes (including perhaps sexual attraction). This feeling is not good for a healthy marriage, shouldn't it be addressed?

This is just conversation for me, I don't have an ideological ax to grind. In fact, I can't make sense of my own WW's decisions, so making sense of someone else's WW is hubris.

Old truck- I guess everyone is going to look at this different ways. If my husband would like us to stay married, he will need to be consistent in showing me that, and be able to demonstrate that he is a safe partner moving forward. If he does that, I already know I want to be married to him. I am going to do my best to move forward with him as my equal partner, giving him the respect and love he deserves. It’s going to be a work in progress for a while. I feel like I have done what I can on my end, and will continue to do so. I don’t feel there is any way to say you are even because there is no score. There is nothing that can fix this but two imperfect people who refuse to give up on each other. Neither of us can take it back and neither of us can pay it back. We can only move forward. I feel like recompense would be empty to me, but every bs can decide for themselves how they wish to proceed in their own situations I guess. This score keeper thing just doesn’t seem healthy and sets an unrealistic expectation that if you do X it will fix something. Time, honesty, commitment and effort are the only things that can.

There is no justice. I assumed that the you did this for them but not me was part of the proverbial shit sandwich the BS had to eat. Part of my evaluation included if I could accept this or not.

BMI was discussed, and what I can figure, it was

BS 24.5 (me)

WH 32.3

AP 60.1

But, BMI doesn't matter as much to me. I would rather have had XH to have done the work to be a safe partner.

EllieKMAS, mine situation has problems from being trickled

truthed for too many years. Does not mean marriage is bad.

Jut never got the truth that I need.

The affair sex can never be undone. Being that the affair sex

can never be undone the WW/WH has to provide things to

their BH/BW can accept as peace offerings to make amends

for their infidelity.

Just compensation is meeting the BH's needs for him to get

over his WW having a PA.

It can be anything.

Sexual, emotional, physical, not trickle truth, boundaries,

new job, agree to move after Day, house hold, financially

faithful. This is not an all inclusive list.

What ever the BH needs is what he needs.

Now don't look for crazy loop holes such as the BH wants

his WW to do drugs to recover.

As the WW was free to have an affair she is free to not meet

her BH needs for recovery.

As there deal breakers were discussed before they got

married. After D day and they are discussing deal breakers

for recovery each party has the right to state their position.

Just the way a WW can say I will not do this act for just

compensation the BH can say without that act I will not

recover. In the end when faced with divorce one or both of

them may yield or they will not yield.

Because a WW will not do something does not make it wrong

for a BH to want it.

Apparition, I can see that list being relevant 75 years ago when women largely needed a husband. But that list is not true for a lot of women today. Some shallow gold-diggy types, sure I'll grant you that. For most of the women that I know, attraction matters but not nearly as much as a LOT of other things.

And if that's 'what women go for' for 'security' then how come there's so darn many of us BW's around?

But honestly if the kinds of women that use that shite list are the only ones you know, then you need to branch out more imho.