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Oldtruck me old chum, what are YOU dealing with? What has happened in YOUR situation that has you struggling so hard with this compensation thought? You mentioned that you had some recent revelations that have hurt you. What were those?

I just think this conversation will be more focused and helpful and far less contentious for everyone if you stop talking around your issue with generalities and hypotheticals. Just my 0.02.

WH had ME choose and purchase him a fancy wardrobe that he wore when meeting his AP.

She oohed and ashes over the clothes.

When she told me she liked my taste in clothes, I cut them all up with scissors.

Obviously she enjoyed my birthday date in husbands too

The fact that I'm still attracted to men after reading 20 pages of this thread is proof that sexuality is not a choice.

^^^

I heard EllieKMAS make a similar statement!

[This message edited by maise at 4:52 PM, February 27th (Saturday)]

I love when women insult men as aggressive bullies framing the opinion a man utters as "telling women what they want". Why discuss the ideas when you can simply insult, gaslight, and strawman the opinion a man is making.

The "opinion a man is making" is that women who disagree with the list you posted are liars. And more than one man is saying it.

I think many women would argue with this list in order to put forth things like a sense of humor, intellect, values, etc. But I believe they put forth these things to make themselves look better and that they may indeed value other things, but its not actually what makes a man attractive. This is demonstrable in the men women choose, we all see it, it's gas lighting to even claim otherwise.

Women say those thins do not matter because they want to

avoid public perception of a gold digging shallow person.

Their actions speak different.

Then when woman after woman says "my actions prove that what you are saying about me is not true," we're accused of insulting, gaslighting and strawmanning (is that even a verb?). Because it's "obvious" we're wrong about what women want, and therefore, we have to be lying in order to look better to men.

I'm not backing down on this. Sisoon is right. Claiming that I'm the one who attacked you is DARVO.

Allow me to ask a devil's advocate type question. Would you agree that there is a certain percentage (don't think its that big, but significant enough for men to notice) of women that say that there are qualities in a partner that they want, but in practice, they go after partners that are the complete opposite of those qualities?

We've seen many, many threads about how some men say they want one thing (love) in order to get what they actually want (sex). That does not mean that "men" in general couldn't give two shits about love, or that men who say they love their wives are liars who are just trying to look good to women. By the same token, a lying subset of women proves nothing about what "women" in general actually want.

Finally, oldtruck, believe it or not, I know men who actually CHOOSE to marry an overweight woman! Stunning, but true! My H picked me over someone who weighed 40 pounds less than me. Not everyone applies the same criteria as you.

Finally, oldtruck, believe it or not, I know men who actually CHOOSE to marry an overweight woman! Stunning, but true! My H picked me over someone who weighed 40 pounds less than me. Not everyone applies the same criteria as you.

Right. Some men prefer women who are thin. Some men prefer muscular women. Some men prefer thick women. Some men prefer men. It's almost like MEN aren't some monolithic group that OT can speak for.

There are some thin women that are prettier than other thin

women. Same with average weight and over weight women.

Weight is not the only criteria for attractiveness.

So to say a man chose a woman that was 40lbs heavier means

that weight was that much of an issue for that man, and it does

not address what else a man preferred the heavy woman to

the thin woman.

This is like saying when people eat more ice cream there are

more drownings. Hence reduce risk of drowning by not

eating ice cream.

This fact or finding ignores that in the winter people eat less

ice cream and less people swim. Where as in the summer

more ice cream is eaten and more people swim.

Also everyone is afraid to move the topic to what is just

compensation. Is just compensation valid. Give examples

of just compensation. Gives reasons why you do not believe

in JC.

I started this post to discuss just compensation as my

response to a thread that got closed Where the BH needed

his WW to go to the gym get toned and look as good for him

as his WW looked for her OM.

Gives reasons why you do not believe

in JC.

A car crash analogy was used earlier in the thread. OT, you said that a car cannot be repaired by regrets. Very true.

However, an intangible thing like a relationship is very different from a tangible object like a car or a broken vase (another popular analogy on SI). Tangible items can be repaired, albeit imperfectly (i.e. a shattered vase) or outright replaced with the same item (i.e. another Toyota Corrolla with the insurance money from the wreck). Relationships, being more a concept than an actual object, not so much. They can’t be “made whole” by money, sex, weight loss/“toning”, poems, love letters, meals cooked, or floors cleaned.

Will attempts at redress/“compensation” help some BSs? I would assume so. Other BSs? No. My H didn’t/wouldn’t have cared about any attempt of mine at compensation, because in his view, there could BE no “just compensation” for severing the relationship by my adultery (and more serious in his opinion, my deceit).

In his view, the only solution was divorce. He got his “just compensation” that way.

Are all BSs going to agree with him that divorce is the only way? Nope. But he and I don’t agree on much, but we do/did agree that there could have been nothing I, the WS, could have done to “compensate” him for having cheated.

Quoting myself.

Oldtruck me old chum, what are YOU dealing with? What has happened in YOUR situation that has you struggling so hard with this compensation thought? You mentioned that you had some recent revelations that have hurt you. What were those?

I just think this conversation will be more focused and helpful and far less contentious for everyone if you stop talking around your issue with generalities and hypotheticals. Just my 0.02.

Care to comment on YOUR situation instead of vague hypotheticals?

Men marry the best looking woman they can that meets the

what they want in a wife list.

Please don't speak for all men. Not everyone is that shallow. To me, it's just a check box as to whether my dates were attractive to me. I didn't select due to where on the scale they landed. I don't need to prop up my self worth by having the best arm candy possible.

Compatibility was more important. Values and life goals being aligned. Being someone who I can sit for hours just being together with.

I started this post to discuss just compensation as my

response to a thread that got closed Where the BH needed

his WW to go to the gym get toned and look as good for him

as his WW looked for her OM.

Except that isn't true. At all. That's your issue, not his.

The OP in the locked thread stated that his wife started gaining significant weight at the time of her last affair, not after it, and that her inability to lose weight after the A had nothing to do with her effort level. He reiterated multiple times that she had tried every reasonable avenue to lose weight, including working out, and been unsuccessful. I would quote him directly if it wasn't a guideline violation.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 10:32 PM, February 27th (Saturday)]

Divorce for some BS is just compensation.

Some BH would not consider attempting recovery unless

their WW gave them a divorce first.

Anymore forms of just compensation?

I do not need help with being trickle truth for a long time.

As with a PA sex that cannot be undone time wasted due to

trickle truthing cannot be given back.

Like a WW cannot be forced to go to the gym and lose weight

they cannot be forced to answer questions.

I guess that it is because no one can make a woman's body

tell the truth. It is their body and no man can tell them what

to do with their own body.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 8:44 PM, February 27th (Saturday)]

I agree with grubs. Please don’t speak for all men. Calling the generalities thrown around on this thread “shallow” is a serious understatement. OP I hope somewhere in this thread you have found time to deal with your specific issue with your WW. You have the right obviously to make your own requirements for recovery and R. We are all different as BS in how we approach recovery if we decide not to D and feel our WS is a worthy candidate. Just IMO but just compensation does not exist. Nothing can compensate for the pain of infidelity. If your WW is not meeting your needs for R on her own volition, it might be time to have that conversation or make a decision about your future. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 10:14 PM, February 27th (Saturday)]

This thread started out about weight..then it was about health..oh,no,wait..it's about compensation.

Post,after post,insulting women. Letting us know that,according to at least one man here,that all men consider our outward appearance, and rate us as worthy..or not.

A list,telling us what all women want in a man was given. When the women responding, refuted that list, we were called liars..and undercover golddiggers.

It's truly one of the most insulting threads I've read on here. And also one of the saddest. To realize how very shallow all men are..at least according to the OP who apparently speaks for all men.

Post after post, making sweeping generalizations, which...isn't that against SI guidelines?

OP, if you really are interested in having a conversation about compensation, perhaps you should start one. Because that's not what you did. And you know it.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:16 PM, February 27th (Saturday)]

The fact that I'm still attracted to men after reading 20 pages of this thread is proof that sexuality is not a choice.

First of all, Jana,

To quote one of the greatest comic actors in all time, in his very finest role, “Man, I’ve seen a lot of stuff in my life, but that! Was! Awesome!!!!”

—Chris Farley in Tommy Boy

Second, to answer Oldtruck, I don’t believe in just compensation. I addressed some of this in an earlier post, but for me, my relationship with Jesus took away my desire to be compensated or for JM to be punished. I was an adult Sunday School class teacher in 2011. JM moved out in February. As it happened, the entire month of February lessons were from the book of Hosea. There are a lot of differing interpretations of that book. But as I was studying the book to prepare for classes, what I saw was that the whore who was Hosea’s wife was me. I didn’t commit physical adultery. But I have lied, stolen, allowed people to suffer when I stole their pain meds. I’ve crawled back to God over and over again asking forgiveness. Sometimes for the same thing. And he forgives me and he doesn’t hold it over my head. When I began to identify with Gomer, the faithless, immoral whore then i realized that I was no better than her. And in that instant I realized that in God’s eyes I was no better than JM. We chose different sins. We hurt each other and the marriage in different ways. And if I expect forgiveness from God, then how can I hold bitterness and unforgiveness in my heart?

What I do believe in, however, is making amends. The first 3 steps in AA are to admit our powerlessness over alcohol and that our lives are unmanageable. Then we come to believe that a higher power could restore our sanity. And third, we come to a decision to turn our will and life over to the care of God as we understand god. With the 4th and 5th steps we begin to evaluate the wreckage of our life. We make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. There are worksheets, workbooks, and sponsors who will help guide the process.

So, compare this to a wayward fresh from DDay. His/her life is certainly unmanageable. And they are powerless against anything in the situation apart from themselves. They have to believe that there is some power that can restore sanity.

So, the inventory can be compared to the timeline that WS’es are encouraged to write. It should be, like an AA 4th step, searching and fearless. It should be as complete as possible. The 5th step then, is to admit to God, myself and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Again, people choose who they see as God or their higher power. The other human being can be a sponsor, trusted clergy or a friend. In the context of infidelity, I think the BS is the obvious choice.

This is not supposed to be a pity party for the alcoholic nor for the WS. It is a continuation of “searching and fearless.”

Steps 6 and 7 are internal work; becoming entirely ready to have the defects of character we’ve acknowledged and humbly asking our higher power to remove them. Then we get to steps 8 and 9. We make a list of all the persons we harmed and become willing to make amends to them all. And we then make direct amends wherever possible except when to do so would injure them or others. And that’s the part that is so relevant to this thread.

In Twelve Step recovery from alcohol or other drug addiction, a direct amend refers to the act of personally addressing issues with people who have been harmed by our behavior or our treatment of them as a result of addiction. As outlined in Steps 8 and 9, the practice involves going back to those individuals to acknowledge the harm or hurt we have caused them and demonstrating our changed behaviors in order to provide them with the opportunity to heal. Whenever possible, a direct amend is made face-to-face rather than over the phone or by asking someone else to apologize on your behalf.

There’s nothing in there about compensation but in the groups I have been a part of, it is stressed. If you owe money, you pay it back. If you took something and you still have it, give it back. But some things can’t be paid back.

I’m gonna get real. I did some horrible things in my active addiction. Some of the people I harmed have passed away. I can’t ever make amends to them. I can never, ever make up the time and attention that I withheld from my children so I could get drunk or high. They’re grown now. All I can do is make living amends. Spend my life doing the best I can to never, ever get on that path again. Being the best human being that I can be so that I won’t ever hurt someone like that again.

So that brings us back to the topic. A remorseful WS should be making living amends. There is no way to pay back for the harm they caused. As so many of us have stated, digging into him/herself to uncover the “why” and do the work to become a healthy and safe partner, that is the most important amend to be made. Without that, nothing else really matters.

And yes, there should be effort. It’s work. It’s hard work. And I do believe the BS should express the actions he or she needs to see from the WS. But there is a limit. The work of healing in R should always have as its ultimate goal for partners to become healthy and for the WS to become a safe partner.

You mentioned in one of your responses that the BS has “needs” that the WS must meet in order for the BS to heal and/or be happy. And many of are saying over and over that you can not find healing or happiness in or from another person. It doesn’t matter what the “need” is. But especially if the need relates to sex acts or any physical attribute. You are stuck because you’ve created a catch-22 for yourself. You are convinced that you need x-y-z and if she would just load you up with x-y-z then you’ll be happy. Or regain your mojo. Or you’ll feel justly compensated.

But you won’t. Because A. Your self esteem, your value, your worth as a person and as a man MUST come from within you. Anything that comes from another person is kibbles. It’s external validation, which feels good, but there’s no guarantee it will last. If it didn’t come from you, it can be lost again. It can be pulled out from under you like a rug. And B. Because when you demand and then receive compensation in that way, you’ve turned your M into a transaction instead of a relationship. And that is a very unhappy place to be.

Sorry for the novel.

Post after post, making sweeping generalizations, which...isn't that against SI guidelines?

Yes, which is why it has been mentioned multiple times by moderators.

Your self esteem, your value, your worth as a person and as a man MUST come from within you. Anything that comes from another person is kibbles. It’s external validation, which feels good, but there’s no guarantee it will last. If it didn’t come from you, it can be lost again. It can be pulled out from under you like a rug.

100% truth.

I can never, ever make up the time and attention that I withheld from my children so I could get drunk or high. They’re grown now. All I can do is make living amends. Spend my life doing the best I can to never, ever get on that path again. Being the best human being that I can be so that I won’t ever hurt someone like that again.

Slight t/j but still relevant, but as an adult child of an alcoholic (who has 8 years sober now), THIS is what amends are about. I never got an amend letter. Instead, I've gotten 8 years of amends. Her work to get healthy and work her steps and live firmly in her sobriety is her amends.

Forgiving someone their transgressions against you is way easier when they become a healthier version of themselves and SHOW their humility and care.

OT, you still haven't really shared any details about what's going on with your fww. What happened that has you struggling?

((((HFSSC))))

The OP in the locked thread stated that his wife started gaining significant weight at the time of her last affair, not after it, and that her inability to lose weight after the A had nothing to do with her effort level. He reiterated multiple times that she had tried every reasonable avenue to lose weight, including working out, and been unsuccessful. I would quote him directly if it wasn't a guideline violation.

Thank you BSR! I read that thread too and I didn't think it went the way OT stated.