SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I can't say I prefer it but I sure have had my share of assholes in relationships. Maybe it's the chase as some have pointed out because assholes are arrogant and come off as unattainable. Why would any woman want this? You would think the opposite.

I never wanted the level of assholery I deal with now but I also didn't want a doormat. The kind of guy who would "yes dear" me endlessly. Dare I say there is a need for some spark, some heat. But how much is too much?

This can very easily be turned the other way however. Over and over again my friends, my DD and I say that women who are flat out bitches get treated better by their partners. Every. Single. Time. These women get their asses kissed on a regular basis and I see men tripping over themselves to please them.

My WH's MOWhore is a bitch. Period. She HAS to be in order to have fucked another woman's husband, be an active homewrecker, cheat on her own husband and at times fuck my WH in her house as her BH was (I assume) away on business.

That's a bitch. Actually worse but that term will get edited for sure.

I've told him so many times that I can't believe he would find a piece of garbage like that attractive. I've seen him not get along with friends girlfriends or wives because he felt they were bitches. But his MOWhore? Oh no. She's great.

So it goes both ways and it all lends credibility to the phrase "nice guys finish last". These days I think nice people in general finish last. There's little to no appreciation out there for nice people. I was once told by a BF after breaking up with me that it was because I was too nice. I didn't even know how to reply to that but I never forgot it either.

Too nice. Until that point I didn't realize there was such a thing. All I know is looking back now I wish I had been a bitch on wheels since I began dating. I'd probably be living the high life.

Go figure.

RIO, do you really think a “good” girl can’t also be good in bed? Or is that simply how you personally define “good girl”—one who is a sexual bore?

Not at all. It just happened to have been the compromise that I made. And I don't think it's atypical, I do think that "bad" and "great sex" run in the same circles a lot. But not at all exclusively, which I can say with personal experience. My W is now a "bad girl" in bed and a fantastic sexual partner and, absent the A, still a "good girl" in everyone's eyes but mine (and the AP's). Just in my personal case, the price I paid to see the "bad girl" wasn't worth the price of admission.

However, that's not really my point. Yes, I could have said I wanted to date good girls, gone about doing that, and wound up with a rockstar in bed. No question, that could have happened. But, what bugs me is the "I want to date a good girl" and then doing the bar crawl. Or, making it about an A; "I wanted someone to love and respect me" which, of course, is near impossible to find in an A. I've got no problem with people saying "I want a tatted up ex con" for a boyfriend and going about getting that. What bothers me is when that same person, after dating 10 ex cons then says "Why can't I find a good guy".. Because your NOT LOOKING FOR ONE, most likely, because that's not what you want.

I've observed this in other men. I have a relative who is an absolute asshole. He has been all his life. He's in his mid-60's now, still treats women like trash, but women line up to get abused by him.

This is confirmation bias. What about all the assholes who aren't popular with the ladies? Certainly you've seen many in your life. Were all the assholes you've ever met popular?

During my college days, the biggest asshole I knew was super popular amongst the ladies. Uncouth, racist, all around rude prick. But he was also a 6'5" meathead with ripped abs and great hair. That offsets the assholery in the young crowd. Even then, the girls rarely stuck around past the first month or so. He pretended to be okay with the constant rotation of hot girls who'll date him for a short while. Dream scenario for a college male right? But I know for a fact that it bothered him that these girls never stuck around and would then go on to have committed LTRs with these "weak bitches"(in his words ).

This is confirmation bias.

No, it's not. If it was, I would say, I've observed this and therefore it must be true for all.

Merely stating an observation fact does not move the context any further than an observable fact, while still being objective.

That's not an accurate application of confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is the process of noticing only those facts that confirm your already-held conclusion or belief, while ignoring data that refute it.

That's not an accurate application of confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is the process of noticing only those facts that confirm your already-held conclusion or belief, while ignoring data that refute it.

Ok, here goes: I know lots of women who don't get together with assholes. I know lots of men who aren't assholes.

There, all cleaned up. Balance restored.

[This message edited by 36yearsgone at 4:45 PM, November 14th (Thursday)]

36yrs, have you heard of the 5 stages of relationships? I had not (until therapy...) and it explained some things to me. Google "5 stages of relationship good men" and you can read about it yourself. Hopefully that's not against forum rules. Also, there are many sites with the info, that one in particular puts it concisely IMO. Anyway, the concept makes a lot of sense to me.

In a nutshell, in the early stages of a relationship we tend to completely miss, or dismiss, any flaws and only see the good things in the other person. We also tend to overinflate these good traits. Narcs and assholes can slip by these stages because we are so enamored. For instance, we may see arrogance as confidence. These flaws or quirks become super apparent as the relationship progresses.

Also, the person that's on the pedestal will never respect the person that put them there. I've never heard of any woman preferring a clingy, needy man.

Edited because I accidentally hit submit message.

[This message edited by Buck at 4:52 PM, November 14th (Thursday)]

ARE WOMEN REALLY ATTRACTED TO ASSHOLES OVER DECENT GUYS?

I know my ex certainly is. Her first AP was definitely an asshole. Habitual liar, manipulator, abuser of animals and of women. She broke it off because he became verbally abusive to her while he was cheating on his girlfriend with my STBXW while I was at work, supporting all three of them and my four kids.

And her current OM and OW, they are both absolute piles of vomit in human form. They are the definitions of assholes; round, puckered rolls of meat whose entire existence is to be smothered in shit.

But hey, I might be biased. Maybe I'm the asshole.

What makes a super-fucked-up-asshole more appealing than someone who will love you and place you on a pedestal?

I have difficulty imagining that any woman would prefer a "super-fucked-up-asshole" over the long term. That's not to say that some people don't get stubborn or CoD or whatever and refuse to relinquish their toxic mate. But if you think about it, we typically have to get to know someone for awhile before we realize just how big an asshole they are. And I don't think this is something which is limited to males either. I think assholery is an equal opportunity sport.

Part of what makes an asshole an asshole... is their narcissistic traits, if not full-on narcissism. And when we think about narcissists, we think about ego, manipulation, and charm. They charm us first. They manipulate us with love-bombing. They turn us into their own personal kibble dispensers. It's not until much later that we discover the bait and switch.

I don't think anyone, OP, male or female, would choose an "asshole" over a decent human being with good character. But we don't know what we don't know... particularly when others don't show us their true face. It's time which tells the tale.

women shouldn't be put on pedestals because they are not angels, they are flesh and blood same as you. Do women prefer assholes? It's not a universal thing, not all women are alike (despite what some people think), but many seem to prefer that you man up and stand up to them, bust their balls, treat them as an equal, be assertive. don't ask where they want to eat. just tell them to meet you in the car in 10 min.... that sort of thing. Most want to be the sexual feminine energy in the relationship and want their man to be the sexual masculine energy. Basically alpha traits, and many times alphas lack any semblance of beta balance and are often, yes, assholes.

IMO age plays a role.

18-29 years old......bring on the asshole/bad boys.

30+ years old......time to settle down with the nice stable guy.

Late 30s.... have A with the same assholes who hurt me in my younger days.

That is my story complete with D, and asshole as stepdad to my kids.

I will not be remarrying. Not a safe place for me to be anymore. Women who will do that do not have that fact tattooed on their foreheads.

I changed my game. More like great sex with friendship now. But that's how it's going to be for me.

Annanew said this on page 1

"No, of course women don't like assholes.

But some people like to be with people that know what they want, and go after it. There's a sort of clarity and simplicity about it. And sometimes assholes have that characteristic"

I think that's a really incisive, concise statement that illuminates a lot of this issue.

Malibu, I think it's because people will often treat you how they think they can get away with it. Or we teach people how to treat us. If you show people that you have solid boundaries and expect them to be respected, they're much more likely to comply. Look at the 180 here- how many WS find their partners much more attractive when they assert themselves?

People who are described as "nice" generally aren't assertive. Their boundaries are porous. They let people get away with treating them badly and so other people don't value them as highly. When you value yourself, other people tend to follow suit (not always, obviously!).

When I hear about "nice people", the whole concept of someone who expects to get something from their niceness always comes to mind- like the men who assume if they put in enough friendship coins, sex will fall out :P

True, defining a “nice guy” and an “asshole” would make it easier to understand the differences we are speaking too. I don’t really make myself overly available for anyone, man or woman. I learned at a young age that if you do, people will take you for granted. It’s not necessarily malicious, but on a subconscious level we want what can’t always have; scarcity ramps up desire. If you overly give, people will overly take. If you don’t give, people will want.

[This message edited by KingRat at 6:53 PM, November 14th (Thursday)]

When I was in my teens and in college, one of the things I could never understand was how incredibly common it was for girls to throw themselves at the worst of guys. Cads, players, sleazebags, users, whatever you want to call them, they were the kinds of guys who I could be around for all of five minutes and see exactly what they were. The fact that they got laid at all, let alone as frequently as they did, was and is a total mystery to me.

One of the things I liked about my exWW is that she never gave the time of day to those guys. I never had to worry about some cocksure asshole getting in her ear and convincing her to come to his dorm room. Even her AP doesn't fit the typical asshole player stereotype. He's more of a weasel than anything else.

I will say though that being on the dating market for the first time in my 30s, the women my age are in general far less stupid than they were when I was in college. They seem to be generally more aware of who they are and what they're looking for and don't have time for assholes.

I don't believe women (or men) have a preference for assholes as much as I believe that people who are broken tend to be attracted to those equally broken.

They mistake drama and angst for passion.

They seek the high of the illicit, of "getting away with" something. This creates drama, which is then mistaken for passion. Compared to the security and familiarity of the marriage, it pales because it doesn't have the peaks and valleys of the drama roundabout.

It is not uncommon for people to "affair down," or select an affair partner that is a number of rungs down the social, educational and (certainly!) moral ladder from the spouse.

The question of "why was this an attractive choice to you," is key in understanding one's motivations and rationalizations in choosing this course of action. It's definitely not enough for one to say they will never do it again, or to recognize the former AP as the asshole in tinfoil vs. the knight in shining armor. Because attraction is highly complex, as well as highly personal, this is a journey that is best guided by a professional experienced in dealing with infidelity.

I have never had an affair. However, I've spent some considerable time in IC working on why I was attracted to my now ex-spouse. It's been very enlightening work, and it has required me examining my FOO in detail as well as challenging myself. It's been good work, and I'm glad I've done it. But I can see how it can be intimidating to a WS because it DOES involve taking 100% responsibility for one's actions.

But back to the WS and working through their issues. My late father always said that the most courageous thing you can do is admit you don't have an excuse for your behavior. I think he was on to something.

It's been interesting to look back at my journey through and out of infidelity and the subsequent choices I made with people to date. As I got healthier, the people I found attractive were healthier.

Cat

I've scratched my head about this one a fair bit too.

My wife explained that she knew OM had seduced a whole bunch of women, and part of her thought "Why not me?"

I have literally no idea what the fuck that's about.

True, defining a “nice guy” and an “asshole” would make it easier to understand the differences we are speaking too. I don’t really make myself overly available for anyone, man or woman. I learned at a young age that if you do, people will take you for granted. It’s not necessarily malicious, but on a subconscious level we want what can’t always have; scarcity ramps up desire. If you overly give, people will overly take. If you don’t give, people will want.

This is interesting, Kingrat. And, I suspect it to be true. However, in framing it a different way, I have been learning to put up my boundaries with people to protect my own time for self care, and also to give authentically rather than out of a sense of obligation (or to earn love which was a big perception problem for me). This was and actually still is difficult for me because each situation is very different. To have relationships, you have to sometimes do things you don't feel like doing, so you have to balance when those things are important. I still find it confusing and at times just say yes because it's too hard to decipher and it's not important enough to me either way to say no.

But, what you are talking about comes across as purposefully holding back in order to see a specific result. That sounds manipulative rather than operating from a place of authenticity. I am not sure that would really be the case, so that's a question rather than an accusation.

They mistake drama and angst for passion.

Catwoman, that is the nail on the head of the entire thread. And, some of it is engrained as you said - I watched our kids go through some of those discoveries as they started dating and having relationships. Jealousy to one of them was a positive trait, they saw it as the boy wanted to be with them so badly they couldn't stand for the risk to be there. When I would explain it's a form of control and came from a place of insecurity, that was perplexing to her. Thankfully, she grew out of that.

As for your wife 36years - likely the stability that she held in your marriage didn't look like passion like chaos does. And, that was true for me as well. Our marriage was easy going, my H did all the things a good husband can do. Often, there is something engrained in which that begins to look like apathy because there is no fire of drama. I have really had to work through that with IC - and if you are ever to reconcile with your wife and have it stick she is going to need to do the same.

I've spent some considerable time in IC working on why I was attracted to my now ex-spouse. It's been very enlightening work, and it has required me examining my FOO in detail as well as challenging myself. It's been good work, and I'm glad I've done it. But I can see how it can be intimidating to a WS because it DOES involve taking 100% responsibility for one's actions.

I have friends who are recently divorced (in the past 5 years) and have dated and repeated their mistakes in choosing people. Seeing the patterns of who they choose is very enlightening to understand we choose the ying to our yang sometimes and sometimes that is a really bad thing. One of them is very much an empath personality, and she finds someone that exploits that every single time. Relationships and who you have them with can be a really great way to identify a whole gammit of things about yourself.

With an affair, I am not sure it's quite as straightforward. It can be I am sure, but often I think what really happens is more about proximity and opportunity. The fact you are married limits the amount of people who are going to go there with you. And, at least in my case, I was in a place of misery. It really only took some kind words and attention to get my interest. I was not physically attracted to the AP. He did have some characteristics of someone I would have a relationship with, but not ones that would outweigh his lack of moral fiber. My picker for a spouse was very good in that regard, and it was not unintentional. So, honestly, I think my attraction to him was really superficial. It was far more about me, my state, my need to escape, my scarcity of good feelings and happiness, and not taking responsibility for it. I rarely think there is anything about the AP that precipitates the affair. It's done under such different conditions than regular dating that there is really no comparison between the two things.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:31 AM, November 15th (Friday)]

Yes, but most women figure out it is not worth it as they get older.

I think the attraction to assholes is the same as desiring excitement. Women see good guys as stable and comfortable. Sometimes they want to throw caution to the wind so they push for something dangerous to feel alive. Why ruin the good guy, when assholes are abundant?

Here is my other take on it. It is the equivalent of the KISA for guys. Women want to find/change the bad guy into a good guy. Then they have the secret good guy they always wanted and feel special because a man changed for them. It is the KISA for ladies I think. It is like the guys who try to get the local prostitute or stripper to marry them and become a good woman.