SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Most BSes do not need ICU or ER or even urgent care as a result of being betrayed.

you're being a literalist. It was an analogy and a perfectly adequate one.

what can the WS do to actually heal the BS?

To start with they can undertake exactly the process outlined by Linda McDonald. But I believe you've already stated elsewhere you disagree with her framing of the entire book as a WS "moving from being a destroyer to a healer" (her words, not mine).

So we probably don't have a lot of common ground on this. But she has a clinical background and her book is considered pretty much SOP here.

You seem to have a different opinion from most of the resources urging WS's to take on the role of a healer.

Many of the articles here on SI describe this in various ways. One uses the analogy of a WS purposefully blowing up a boat, then realizing with horror what they've done, rescuing their wounded spouse in a life raft and then furiously bailing water while also trying to triage their wounded spouse.

In other words, being a healer:

...recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time?

if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain.

if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster

Just a few excerpts from the article that greets waywards here when they arrive on SI. The article goes on to describe all of the proactive steps of a WS being a healer:

-Initiating exercise

-Help them find their misplaced purse or keys

-Prepare healthy, balanced meals for your BS

-Answer WHATEVER they ask honestly and completely

-Let them know over and over why you want to be married to them and make the case convincingly

-Expect their anger to return periodically, and basically be prepared to take it

-Plan activities and dates

-Get rid of triggers and gifts

Etc. Etc. Etc.

And don't expect that these things will magically make it all better either. You'll need to sign up for years of being a healer after you were a destroyer.

The idea that the WS would solipsistically focus on their own "healing" and live in a cone of silence while their BS tries to figure out what to do is really absurd, and that's basically contained in the canard, "wayward heals themselves, BS heals themselves."

What does it even mean that a WS must "heal themselves." In what other sphere of life is such a thing said? Redeem yourself? Yes. If you're a hit and run driver, you can probably redeem yourself. If you ran slave ships like the man who wrote the hymn "Amazing Grace" you can find metanoia and turn your life around.

WS's must "heal themselves"?

From what?

Most WS's are entitled people who lied to themselves and others and carried out among the most vile transgressions in every human culture, past and present.

It's on the top 10 list of no-nos for a reason. As I've said elsewhere the reason is not because a bunch of neolithic patriarchal sky-god worshippers wanted to find a clever way to oppress women. It was because adultery destroys trust. When you destroy trust, you steadily undermine human social functioning at large. If everyone committed adultery, then honesty as a concept would not exist. No one could be trusted. Chaos would result. Barbarity would result.

That's why I've also made it clear elsewhere that adultery destroys social capital in communities.

I think it would be far better to say something like:

"WS pulls their selfish head from their ass, starts developing authentic metanoia, and helps the BS however they can. They offer true remorse, true recompense, and basic truth. They take action to make amends. Immediately. BS goes to a betrayal trauma specialist and works on healing from a sinister transgression."

A WS can also do the basics of outlining the whole truth and nothing but the truth. A NYTimes article several years ago described precisely why this is so important for a BS's healing:

FREQUENTLY, a year or even less after the discovery of a longstanding lie, the victims are counseled to move on, to put it all behind them and stay focused on the future. But it’s not so easy to move on when there’s no solid narrative ground to stand on. Perhaps this is why many patients conclude in their therapy that it’s not the actions or betrayal that they most resent, it’s the lies.

Of course a BS has a responsibility for their own healing. Again, an analogy would be someone who simply won't do as a physical therapist asks after being severely injured. Won't do the stretches, won't perform the exercises to activate other muscles. Versus a patient who embraces the process. Of course. I've never disputed that.

I read many of your posts, and I can't help thinking about protesting too much.

This is a vague statement that sounds witty on the surface. But it is empty without specifics.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:32 PM, July 29th (Thursday)]

CT, your post is a lot for me to take in. Believe it or not, I appreciate your viewpoint and input even though it's radically different from mine, thank you. I need to ponder it for a bit before I reply.

But you've chosen to be a member of SI, in which you would be classified as both BS and WS on the basis of your revenge A alone.

And every time you say 'I don't consider the first A to be an A,' you are minimizing, if only for yourself, your behavior, which includes your Long Term Affair.

Sisoon, you speak of protesting too much and I think you do a bit of that here. You're a smart guy, yet you seem to dismiss any form of ethical non-monogamy. And I fucking hate that term too but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My wife and I had a deal before her A, we stood up and took vows in front of family and friends. She agreed to terms and I agreed to terms. She broke that agreement. It's the old M is dead we need to build a new one. I'm allowed to change the terms going forward to suit me. The terms can be transparency, GPS tracking, yearly polygraphs, shared passwords, VARs, or whatever either of us chooses. She's allowed to accept those terms, negotiate alternative terms, or exit the relationship altogether. I'm allowed the exact same things. I told her I would stay but not be faithful going forward. She accepted those terms. I did not break the terms of the new deal on the first A in any conceivable way. AP was a single ex-FWB that knew what the situation was and was fine with it. I made no attempt to hide my activities and my wife knew the details of the situation and had full agency to make any informed choice she wanted. This may make me an asshole in many people's eyes, but this was not an affair nor does it make me a cheater.

The second situation was an affair, even under the new terms. I lied to the AP about my marital status. FWIW, she was also single. I led her on and let feelings develop without being honest with her. I let the truth out slowly and only when pressed. I made promises I had no intention of following through with - typical future faking bullshit. AP constantly struggled with me being married. I also lied to my wife, mostly by not giving her the full details of what I was doing. Things like "I'm going to the gym" but leave out I was going with AP. I lied about business trips, money spent, working late, all the typical cheater shit. I lied to my wife and took away her agency to make an informed decision. This was an A in my opinion. I also developed feelings for the AP. She was in a PhD program, she graduated but her mentor, who's position she was promised, decided to delay retirement. She pursued other opportunities and found a job on the east coast. Her dream job. AP moved and gave me an ultimatum to move with her. I drug my feet until she ended things. I hurt her and she let me know how she felt about me during the breakup. Thing is AP was the complete opposite of my wife. In every way too - looks, complexion, hair color, eye color, education level, fitness level, and we had many common interests. I see how she and I were more compatible than my wife and I. In many ways. I also know the A isn't comparable to a M, but IME a longer term A does resemble a M. Relationships have to grow and change or they wither away. I was a fucking mess during this time too. I had done virtually no work on myself after the betrayal. I had issues with rage, saw marriage as a fucking foolish choice and I treated both women poorly. I am ashamed of myself. I was the asshole in this shitshow. I'm not pining for AP either. I know it's over and I know why.

And since I'm being brutally honest, if I had a do-over I would have divorced my wife on d day. I would have avoided all of the blameshifting, gaslighting, trickle truth, outright lying, and rugsweeping that went down. Then I could have had an authentic, honest relationship with AP. The way I see it is my wife chose to compare me to another man. She found out he was a lesser man in every way - height, temperament, character, intelligence, drive, fitness level, and even dick size. Yet she fucked him for 6 months and "chose" me of her own volition when she was worried about being discovered. She didn't fare so well against my AP. Now she's menopausal, has gained weight, has issues with depression/anxiety, and she knows all of the shit I've written in the previous 3-4 sentences. I think this greatly impacts R now.

I know this doesn't paint me in a positive light, but these are just the facts of my situation. I really don't know if R is even possible at this point. There may simply be too much water under the bridge to salvage this marriage.

Thumos, I agree with your post about what a WS can do to help a BS heal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Mrs. Buck been doing those things? So at what point is Buck responsible for his own healing? TBH, if I was Mrs. Buck, I'd have been done trying after the RA.

After Buck's last love letter about his second AP, I think he blames Mrs. Buck for him not getting his chance with a "better" model.

Get a divorce. It's the right thing to do, for both of you.

Then leave. Cruelty is letting this mess last one more day. You both deserve better.

And since I'm being brutally honest, if I had a do-over I would have divorced my wife on d day. I would have avoided all of the blameshifting, gaslighting, trickle truth, outright lying, and rugsweeping that went down. Then I could have had an authentic, honest relationship with AP. The way I see it is my wife chose to compare me to another man. She found out he was a lesser man in every way - height, temperament, character, intelligence, drive, fitness level, and even dick size. Yet she fucked him for 6 months and "chose" me of her own volition when she was worried about being discovered. She didn't fare so well against my AP. Now she's menopausal, has gained weight, has issues with depression/anxiety, and she knows all of the shit I've written in the previous 3-4 sentences. I think this greatly impacts R now.

Well, you can't have a do-over Buck.

But that doesn't mean you still can't divorce. TBH, to me you don't seem particularly happy with your marriage anymore, nor does your situation seem to be R in any meaningful or worthwhile sense. And I have to point out here that you perpetrated a lot of the same behaviors that you could have avoided with your wife by divorcing - lying, minimizing, trickle truthing, rugsweeping etc. Not saying that in a blameful way mind you - I see a lot of your behaviors after your ww's A being inappropriate responses to the unimaginable pain caused by being cheated on. Not saying that makes them right, but to me it does make them more understandable.

So why stay now?

CT, your post is a lot for me to take in. Believe it or not, I appreciate your viewpoint and input even though it's radically different from mine, thank you. I need to ponder it for a bit before I reply.

You have more control of what goes on between your ears than you think, Buck.

This is not complicated to me. Your wife is behaving like a doormat. She’s trading her own desires and self worth to stay in the marriage at all costs. She also prior traded that same thing (along with sex and risking losing what you believe was a good marriage) for shallow words of affirmation. It’s not irony but rather a direct correlation of the same behavior in a different situation. The only thing about this that’s confusing is in the introduction of ideas surrounding “ethics” and expectations. It’s also confusing because you seem to thing that there is a “deferred payment” plan for what is ultimately the consequences of essentially the same issue.

You don’t respect your wife, Buck…she doesn’t respect herself.

And you seem to think you can defer the costs by instead paying in guilt. And guilt breeds resentment - which then confuses you because on the surface she’s no longer a cheating spouse - just one that still lacks the fundamental core that actually led to the cheating (self-respect).

There’s always a cost-to-benefit consideration in divorce. I can’t advise you on that. But it seems to me the bigger issue that you need to resolve is your own guilt when doing that analysis. This is where your own self-respect comes into play. What do you most value? Choose that…and then accept the costs of doing so.

^^^

Every word truthsetmefree said.

TBH, I see that dynamic played out in a lot of stories here—including my own. A WS behaves in a way lacking in self-worth and self-respect by committing adultery, but then they accept (or return to) years upon years of a shitty situation because of the same lack of self-worth and -respect that they never addressed, either after the cheating or in the first place.

A simpler less emotional example…

Suppose I’m an excellent, productive highly dependable employee…but my work intentionally pays me below market value wages (because they think they can get away with that…I’ve been with them for years, after all).

I get angry one day so I just stop coming to work at all. I produce nothing. I become surly, difficult, obstinate. Not only do I not get fired, I still continue to draw the same paycheck, week after week, month after month.

My job has essentially devalued my work - twice.

Now I feel stuck - history, need a paycheck, don’t want to start over - but I know I’m not valued. My work obviously has a broken value system. To some I seem to have it good…I’m lucky, should feel grateful. But I also feel empty and not valued.

This is where you have to decide what YOU most value. What would you choose in this type of situation? Because I imagine that will closely align with your current situation.

TBH, I see that dynamic played out in a lot of stories here—including my own. A WS behaves in a way lacking in self-worth and self-respect by committing adultery, but then they accept (or return to) years upon years of a shitty situation because of the same lack of self-worth and -respect that they never addressed, either after the cheating or in the first place.

I agree with this, but in reality it is often exponentially worse. The WS is lacking in self worth, and searches for something, in the unfortunate cases here as an affair. For a time they might be on cloud nine, but when it crashes, it crashes hard. The affair partner disappears, their husbands in both our cases gave them words of affirmation prior to the affair, now are telling them they are whores. If their self worth prior to the affair started at a 3, after it’s a negative 50. In your case your wife has had the knowledge you turned to other women instead of her. It’s no wonder she feels like crap. I know mine did. Still hasn’t recovered.

I’m going to suggest to you what was suggested to me. Try to fake it until maybe you can make it. I was crap at it, but maybe you can do better. Buy her flowers once a month. Take her out to a nice dinner. Show some interest in things she likes to do. This is advice I woukd never give a newly betrayed spouse. Never try to nice them back. But you got your pound of flesh. I get it. Mine was divorcing her, which for her was way worse then me having an RA. This is more to nice you back.

You say you do have good times with her. Maybe they can be better, and slowly the marrige may recover. At some point she needs to have some of her dignity back. My guess it will never all return. I’m not so sure a WS deserves ever to get back to 100%. But she can’t be a doormat forever. You will never respect her, and you won’t respect yourself for staying with one

I had done virtually no work on myself after the betrayal. I had issues with rage, saw marriage as a fucking foolish choice and I treated both women poorly. I am ashamed of myself. I was the asshole in this shitshow. I'm not pining for AP either. I know it's over and I know why.

Buck, seriously, what work have you done at all since the above? I'm not trying to be an ass--I'm curious. Is joining SI the first steps toward help?

From the grandstands, it looks like you refuse to let go of the resentments you have toward your wife. You're not happy with your behavior, but are you really trying to address it? Are you trying to let go of the resentments?

And back to revenge 'not affair' #1. Do me a favor, and poll the members here who think that this was not cheating. If the majority say it wasn't, then I'll accept that, but I'm betting it won't be the case. She broke the vows, and killed the marriage? Then complete it, and get the fucking divorce. Don't leave yourself married by law and say that it doesn't matter. I know for a FACT that the courts say otherwise. And if you hold zero value in that part of the legal contract, then you shouldn't have gotten legally married. Period. It's wayward thinking to change the rules as you see fit, and ignore the other realities of the situation.

We don't even have to discuss the second affair. No one is contesting that this is exactly what it was. But I think that you are doing yourself, what we claim a remorseless wayward is doing.....refusing to take accountability. I said before that your wife is free to leave whenever she feels like it. She may very well be lacking self respect, but that is HER responsibility to correct. The real sad part is the two of you have real potential to be a happy, united couple, but she won't stand up for herself, and you won't put down your resentments....which should have been lifted by your own destruction in your own marriage. It confuses me, because you possess many of the traits to get the marriage back on track if you wanted, but refuse to do so. I like BFTG's suggestion, because at least there is an end goal. Your actions have you in a toxic loop.

You will never respect her, and you won’t respect yourself for staying with one

This is what I'm starting to realize now. I just don't have it in me to go with the fake it until you make it route. I appreciate your posts WWTL. I've felt much like an outsider here. A lot of the betrayed folks here twist themselves into knots to cling to a remorseless cheater. Especially some of the BHs. They bullshit themselves into some sort of magical thinking by minimizing what the A meant to their WS, how fake the A was, accepting a wife that would perform sex acts with AP but not them, dismissing the feeling WS had for AP, and a whole host of other horrors. I really just can't relate to those folks and I can't even imagine trying to R under those circumstances.

JB, I never wanted a M like this. I was 100% faithful to the point of ridicule by friends and coworkers before my WW's betrayal. For instance, we would travel to Canada several times a year and the guys would want to go to the strip clubs there. Let's just say the clubs there are far more liberal than the ones in the US. I would go if the customer insisted, but I never once interacted with the women and I never went otherwise. I caught the typical bro flak for this but it never bothered me. I brushed off any flirting or other displays of interests from other women prior to the A too. I had rock solid boundaries. And, honestly, I don't really care what other people think about the first "A". We all have different boundaries and expectations in our marriages. I can't imagine swinging, but some folks do it, don't consider it cheating if the rules are followed, and seem quite happy. Who the hell is anyone to judge someone else's consensual conditions in their relationship? And I want to make it clear, I'm not saying anyone should have a RA. I poured a bunch of energy into revenge when that energy probably would have been better utilized in starting a new life. Take it from me, an A is no way to start a relationship either. Even if the AP isn't a complete shitshow of a person. Also, I've since done CBT talk therapy which didn't help me much until it was combined with EMDR. I also meditate and I wrote in a journal for several years. I haven't journaled for a while now and probably need to get back to it. I've read countless infidelity books, listened to podcasts, youtube videos, most of which are worthless IMO. Exercise and proper diet helped too. I've never been a big drinker and I mostly avoid alcohol. I only minimally drink in social situations now. I can say with certainty I would never cheat again under any circumstances. I don't really resent her anymore; I just don't respect her and no amount of effort on her part seems to sway that notion for me.

Truthsetmefree, you are spot on with the respect issue in our M.

I don't think I'm R material. R seems like a compromise to me. It's the whole irony thing in the first post. We've both been changed by this and we both can't be what the other person needs. I apparently can't bend enough to make myself into that person. I think the right thing to do is to divorce. We have been going to MC for the last couple of months. I am going to use next week's session to let her know.

We've both been changed by this and we both can't be what the other person needs. I apparently can't bend enough to make myself into that person. I think the right thing to do is to divorce. We have been going to MC for the last couple of months. I am going to use next week's session to let her know.

Buck this is huge, and is the healthiest and most humbly honest thing I have ever seen from you in my time here. Good on you for getting there.

FWIW, I think you're right that divorce will be the healthier option for both of you, and there is zero shame in coming to that conclusion. No one "wants" a divorce, but I do believe that in certain instances (especially where infidelity is involved) it is absolutely what is best for everyone.

Sending good juju your way.

Buck,

I've been pretty hard on your choices, but that doesn't mean I think you deserve to suffer. What support do you need and what do you need to do to live the life you want to live?

*****

I think you'd be a great candidate for R, if you want R.

R is compromise, because life is compromise. But, as everyone has been saying, R is not a requirement for recovering from being betrayed or betraying.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:48 PM, Friday, July 30th]

I just don't respect her and no amount of effort on her part seems to sway that notion for me.

That's fair. Respect is a really difficult component to get back. But maybe the effort needs to be on your part. What about self-respect? How is it that you've done these awful things and that's okay with you? You've got two different standards here which are only separated by an in-your-face declaration that you won't be faithful anymore. You can argue that it's all out in the open... now, after the fact, but that doesn't make it right. It doesn't mean that you didn't actually do the same things that you judge your fWW so harshly for doing.

People can get divorced for any reason they want, and really your contempt for your fWW is such that I'd encourage you to do it. I'm just wondering though if things would be different for you if you weren't in such a hurry to absolve yourself of your wrongdoings. How would you really feel about her if you allowed yourself to really experience remorse for what you've done. I think maybe you've blocked that feeling somehow. What happens if you let it in and then sit with it for awhile? Do you think it might lead to empathy?

If your WW had looked you in the eye and told you she was leaving the house to fuck some other dude, I doubt you'd be so sanguine in your position that it's not cheating if the other person knows. I mean, I get that she changed the rules so then you changed the rules. If you can't beat 'em join 'em, right? But doesn't that make you equals again. Isn't that the point of an RA, so you can punish the WS and even the score? Where's the even score? Seems to me, that she's got an LTA coming to her side of the equation, doesn't she?

Best time to plant an apple tree is ten years ago.

The best you can do is plant one right now.

I respect the right to differing perspectives...but I'm just not understanding why this keeps seeming to come back to the same issues (ie, Buck's As). I think that it does is also what's likely at the heart of his real conflict.

Ok, he had affairs. Revenge affairs if you want to call them that (whatever that means). But he's made it clear that from his perspective, the rules of the game changed and he simply played by the new ones. We can debate all day whether that is actually true...but he has given us HIS perspective on that. I don't get the sense that he's conflicted in that.

But what has also changed is the fact that the marriage his WW was willing to initially risk, she now will save at all costs. Buck has now become the employee that gets paid without having to even show up for his job. So is his "work ethic" really the issue now? Does he really need to examine himself to figure out why he no longer "goes to work"? (If it's not obvious, I'm trying to draw parallels here to his marriage.)

Not going to work in that situation can actually be a form of self-respect. Why would I give the effort if it has no real value? Sure we can talk about intrinsic value - but this is where it gets muddy. There's many causes I feel intrinsically motivated by. But there's also many I do not. Where self-respect comes in is in being able to to determine those - and then behaving in a way that is authentic to that. When we're not in alignment with that is often when we feel guilt...we're doing something that somebody else thinks we need to do. And we then grow angry - resentful. Perhaps we are even subconsciously pushing against in such a way so that someone else then gives us the release that we are so desperately needing. In a roundabout way, we are almost hoping to get "fired". (I don't know, Buck? Maybe?)

I just don't see how filtering this through the lens of his own affairs has any real benefit to actual resolution - other than for Buck to maybe examine why he didn't leave immediately instead of having affairs. Maybe for him to examine why he felt he even could get his "pound of flesh"? I just don't see how it's relevant to the issue now when he IS considering leaving. I can certainly understand why at the time he may have thought what he did - but that was then and this is now. Surely no one would actually suggest he should pay some sort of penance by staying with his wife? Because that is somewhat of the sense I am getting from some of the responses.

I'm sure his choices have hurt his WW. I'm sure if he actually follows through with divorce that will also hurt his wife. I could see where he feels trapped without really optimal choices. Such it is. But his wife also has autonomy and choice. And we all get hurt in life. So the best you can do in such a situation is to be authentic to your own self....so that there is at least honesty in the hurting.

I have a very strong suspicion that the very thoughts and feelings that led to Buck staying and cheating are the very same ones that are holding him in this current place. The cheating proved to not be satiating...and now he's stuck in the cost reality that he's been trying to avoid.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 4:31 PM, July 30th (Friday)]

I think part of why people are drawing attention to Buck’s affairs is because of how he justifies them and doesn’t feel remorse for them, or even regret—what I understand him to have said is that his only regret is that he didn’t D her beforehand.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 5:03 PM, July 30th (Friday)]

Buck

I don't feel the first "A" can be considered an A. I told her before it started. Months before it started actually. She agreed with what I said. I never once lied to her during or after. I never stole her agency or let her live a lie.

This statement really jumped out at me. I ask you consider this, do you honestly think that your wife would do anything other than agree with you when you made that declaration? Had the roles been reversed and you were desperate to save your marriage, I don't think its a reach to say you would have agreed. Certainly not because you felt it was ok or fair but because you felt you really had no choice.

I get why you wanted an RA, I suspect many people might have felt the same way. But ask yourself, do you really feel better because of it? Regardless of why you had your affairs, you're still a WS. I've been called many things in my life but none worse than a cheater. Even if you convince yourself the first liaison wasn't an A, the second one definitive was.

You speak of having no respect for your wife, I wonder if your transferring some of your own guilt onto her. Regardless of the circumstances, you still made the choice to cheat just as your wife did. I think if you can really embrace that idea, perhaps the both of you still have a shot. I hope so.

Thank you, DF...and I do get where that would be a trigger.

But personally, I also see that as a red herring in this case. (I would also guess that he does have some regret that goes beyond just not divorcing his wife. But I don't think he's going to be able to get in touch with that while he feels stuck in this situation.)

I fear what I'm going to say is also going to be triggers...and it runs a risk of really TJ this whole thing. But I do think it's relevant to the topic/point.

We know affairs are about avoidance. Sometimes that's a long engrained pattern that runs throughout all of a person's life (as in the ones that are PD). Other times it's an unhappy relationship...and people actually believe the affair will give them what they need so they can STAY in the relationship (avoid D and all the costs that come along with that). I think RAs especially tend to be guided by that idea....that maybe by having a RA you can actually avoid D. (And I'm using the term "RA" to basically describe cheating that likely wouldn't have happened without the WS cheating first.) Yes, there's anger and a desire for retaliation...but there's also some desire to try to somehow "save" the marriage. (Let's not delve into whether this ia actually beneficial or "right"..avoidance is rarely beneficial.) It's why break-throughs in this type of situation are always hard...because the first thing that has to be overcome is the, likely subconscious, idea that what you are doing is actually trying to save the relationship. It fits in perfectly with why Buck now wishes he had just divorced immediately.

(I know you likely already understand all of this already. Just writing it out to clarify my point.)

I see it as irrelevant for him to go back now and review all his efforts save the marriage...when it now seems that what he really wants, possibly what he really wanted all along, was just to be out of it. IMHO, the better focus - What was he really wanting to avoid then...and how does that parallel to what he's trying to avoid now? Why is it hard for him to just honor that? Why does he not place a higher value on his own authenticity? And the most important question - what is/has been the real cost of this avoidance? Because that is the biggest illusion of avoidance - we don't realize what it is really costing us. He feels it. He's acting out on it (resisting - then and now). But he's not recognizing/acknowledging it. Or at least he hasn't been in the past.

I'm sorry, Buck, to be talking about you like you aren't here. I hope some of this is resonating with you. At least making you think. I personally just want you out of the guilt (that I am sensing) so that you can find your own authentic desires.