SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Lea:

I just wanted to say you're doing great. I have learned something from this thread..I had no idea about genetic attraction. The fact that you are even willing to consider R with someone who did something that is so taboo in this society...says much positive about you.

But I popped in to say...I took three weeks to talk to an attorney, I also felt like I was heading down a path I wasn't ready to take. But in reality, it made me feel like I was doing something for MYSELF. Gave me some control when I felt like I had none. Reassured me in many things...our kids were 15 and 12 at the time, I had been at home for all that time. But I had an MBA so COULD make good money, but was worried about what I had missed in the technological advances. H is a high earner. Once I had that knowledge, I felt like I could make decisions based on actions and feelings, not fear of the financial future. I actually think it helped me to R. I hope your calls go well.

I did not tell H I went to the attorney, it was a free consultation. The older gentleman attorney ended up giving me 90 minutes instead of 30, it was the end of the day and he was in no rush to go home, being divorced himself. I was 46 at the time, he counseled me that waiting until I was 50 in Illinois meant the courts would probably not expect me to go back to work. Plus the kids would be older.

2-3 months later, when H decided he was going to divorce me because I was "never going to get over it", he had the nerve to put his hand on my knee and say "Don't worry, I'll be generous". I slapped his hand off and said "Hey, asshole, I've got news for you . YOU don't decide what you give-THE COURT DOES. And it's half of the assets and a third of your income and pension for the rest of your life". Boy did his eyes get wide as he asked "You've seen an attorney?" "Damn straight I have." Then I left and went to a movie and let him stew.

I tell you what, he went to three IC sessions in one week as reality began to hit him. He was either going to deal with what it took for me to recover, or he was going to pay very dearly. He chose to deal with me, and with his own issues, and has since apologized for being such an ass during R.

I wish you the best.

Thanks, Latebloomer. The consult that I have tomorrow is free, so it will be interesting to hear how things have a tendency to go in our state. It looks like they try for mediation & court for issues that can't be resolved there.

In reading about GSA the other day, the article said that there is no clinical evidence and it's only anecdotal information. Not sure if I want to read more, because I'd rather read some of the other books suggested here.

DM - I'll get the OBS work mail address & send a letter. I was trying to shirk but will do it.

You'll want to send a letter registered, whatever it is that you'll get a receipt back when it is delivered. Then you won't eat yourself up with questions about whether or not they've got it yet.

You might also want to block her email address from yours and also her phone number from your phones before you send it. She might just try to call or email if the call doesn't go through.

You might also look in a few of the Divorce / Separation pages and see if you can find some suggestions for talking to the lawyer.

Like, while your state is no-fault, could you consider suing her for loss of consortium, alienation of affection, or something like that?

Does your state allow post-nuptial agreements that favor one spouse? If so, how heavily does the favor extend before the courts will throw it out? 55%-45%, 60%-40%, 70%-30%?

Would leafields feel better about chancing R if her H signs a post-nuptial that gives her 70% of his pension and the house, or just the house and no pension, or whatever would favor her? Would the post-nup be dependent upon an EA, a PA, and what sorts of evidence would the post-nup require to be invoked (if any at all)?

If you D and it comes out in court why you're D-ing, then is it likely that your H be charged with a felony incest complaint?

Even in a no-fault state, can you give the cause as Adultery?

Is "legal separation" a thing in your state? In some it is, in some it isn't.

Is there a required "legally separated" period of time before you can file? Is there a required period of time between filing and D being granted? How does that work?

How quickly / at what point do you want to cancel any joint credit cards, loans, etc. How does that work?

Who gets the better car?

Can the court order the Karma Bus to run over WH and AP, preferably backing up over them again to check for damage? ( this is an attempt at levity! )

Good luck!

P.S. Is there court ordered mediation in your State?

In reading about GSA the other day, the article said that there is no clinical evidence and it's only anecdotal information. Not sure if I want to read more, because I'd rather read some of the other books suggested here.

Yeah. It was a label made up by a woman who wanted to sleep with her son. It’s not a disorder or compulsion, any more than incest is a disorder or compulsion. I think the only thing that is scientific is that most people are attracted to people who are like them in some way.

It’s ok, lea. You are processing one thing at a time. It’s very normal and healthy. The brain can only handle so much at a time. You will come around to thinking more about the sibling aspect of this when you are able to do so. No hurry. It’s very serious, in my opinion. But you’ll figure out what it means to you, in time.

I have been happy to read the good advice you have been getting. I don't have much to add. I don't post much just read occasionally these days, but I wondered if it might be helpful to you to know that I personally in real life know of two cases of blood relatives having an affair with each other.

Both were first cousin situations. The first were first cousins that did know each other growing up and the A ended once the BW caught them. The BW and WH did stay married for several years after the affair and divorced later for other reasons but it was a much more difficult recovery. Family events and even conversations with other family members remained difficult for the BW every time.

The second case was also first cousins but I believe they met as adults. I don't know details of this one because it was a relative of my elderly mother who was the BH. I do know that the WW in that situation left her disabled husband after nearly 30 yrs of marriage and her and her cousin continued in a relationship living together.

I don't imagine any of this as being very helpful but I often feel better just knowing I'm not the only one experiencing something so I help this helps you at that level.

Thanks for the good tips, DM. You have been giving me some very good advice. I didn't think of going to the recovery/divorce pages for tips. With the "no fault" the A isn't an issue, but I might be able to sue for alienation on the AP. Because we're in different states, I don't know if it's possible. (Never had to consider it, so didn't pay attention.) Good questions for the lawyer.

Anna - you're right...my poor brain is about ready to fall out of my ears. I'm trying to take things slowly so that I can make good, clear decisions. Yes, it's an icky situation, but is this an aberration or is it going to happen again? If he's going to be doing this again, I'm not sticking around & H knows that. After that, is he want reconciliation because he loves me or because he has abandonment issues? And I've told him that it really pisses me off that he thought I'd be so stupid as to not figure it out.

Trying2, I appreciate knowing that there are some people that have had something similar.

If he starts seeing her as a predator or mentally it would seem like a lapse. Also remorse vs regret. One thing that should now be clear is she is a bunny burner. Ask him if he thinks she will keep trying to contact? Try and see if his head is in Layla land.

With the "no fault" the A isn't an issue

It might not be an issue, but it might be a bargaining point or it might just end up being something that _you_ want as a consequence for him, if you decide to D.

For, if you D and if you file first _and_ if you put Adultery as the cause on the D filing then that will forever be part of the record. Where I live those D records are public records -and- they're searchable from the internet. Further, folks on SI recommend looking up public records when we start dating after a D.

So, the net result would be that any woman that he asks out would look him up, find the D, find that you filed it on the grounds of Adultery, and perhaps think twice. Or at least be forewarned, eh?

is this an aberration or is it going to happen again?

One can never know, can one? It becomes a question of faith, and the ability to have faith and to trust. He's only in control of his end of it (and we might wax philosophical on that subject, later, if you want) and you're only in control of your end of it.

By this I mean that he might truly learn, grow, and change (though change is hard work), and become a safe partner for you. You might, on the other hand, never believe, never _trust_, that he is a safe partner for you. Or, he might go to IC and read and never change at all and _you_ might decide to trust again and be hurt again.

At some point you're going to have to sit down and wrestle with this very issue. Do you chance it again with him. Are you mentally able to, do you have the emotional makeup and wherewithal to? Read in the Reconciliation forum for what giving the gift of R to him looks like with various folks. Apparently the anger hits in Year 2, and then there's the Plain of Lethal Flatness (in emotional response of the BS), and there are other challenges.

If you decide to try to R you might find out, part way through, that you just can't. And that is okay. Disappointing, but okay. You will find out about Transparency, where he has to (and, really, has to want to) give you all of his email accounts and passwords and such and be accountable for his time _and_ be willing, even eager, to take a pic with is phone of where and who he's with and text it to you at any time. And you'll have to understand that there are circumstances, like business meetings, or driving (where phone use is illegal in some states), or pooping, or a performance review, or whatever, where he just cannot right at the moment. You might panic at those times. People do.

During all of this, too, remember that he's his own person. He might decide to file for D at any time. If he gets too uncomfortable, or too self-destructive, or whatever, either of you could decide to file at any time. You always could've, in fact, without telling the other until they're served. This is a fact of life if an unsettling one.

Back to the subject two paragraphs ago. You'll also likely find yourself in the position of Marriage Police. You will be checking all of the phone bills, and all of the credit card statements, and all of the bank statements, and calling or texting him and wanting pictures frequently. This serves a good purpose because you can compare what he _says_ with what he _does_. That's how trust is rebuilt. It can't go on too long, because you don't want to become a Parent and him a Child in interactions. (See the wikipedia article on "Transactional Analysis" for more of this model of interaction, the Parent-Adult-Child relationship model.)

Sit and think for a while about R and D. If you can't decide right now, that's fine (and actually expected). What you -can- decide is a date, say four? five? six? months from now to sit and review your situation again. Set dates to make actual, active decisions about D or R. What you don't want to happen is that you both become complacent and drift into a sort of unspoken, unagreed-upon, R without the Transparency and without being Open, Authentic, Trustworthy, and Honest with each other. That drifted-into relationship would pretty much be rugsweeping. You do not want to teach him that he can have an A and that you'll be mad for a while and then you'll both let it drift away and not speak of it.

He needs, as one thing, to get over his abandonment issues. He needs to get over being so needed that he'll have an A, whether EA or PA, to feel needed.

He needs to grow up.

A fist bump to you, sister in adversity. You have a long row to hoe. }{

thoughts?

Ask him if he thinks she will keep trying to contact?

H isn't sure. He doesn't think so & right now wants nothing to do with her. He said he couldn't believe how she was all nice & "I've said I'm sorry. We can get past this." And he recognizes that we can't & knows that this will take years to repair. Right now, he's willing to put in the work to get it done. A year from now after putting up with me, my questions & Bitch Boots?

He's only in control of his end of it (and we might wax philosophical on that subject, later, if you want) and you're only in control of your end of it.

I'm guessing this is where the "lizard brain" comes into play, but also his neediness, immaturity & abandonment issues need to be addressed. (Maybe wax poetical later? I'm not sure that I'm ready for it today.)

Sit and think for a while about R and D. If you can't decide right now, that's fine (and actually expected). What you -can- decide is a date, say four? five? six? months from now to sit and review your situation again. Set dates to make actual, active decisions about D or R.

I'm thinking that I'll probably need 3-4 months. My main goal in IC is to determine whether D or R is the plan. I don't want to sweep things under the rug & we both know that there's no way that the relationship can go back & be what it was. We're working on the OATH communication & everything seems to be open. He doesn't have any other email accounts (he's not very techy & I had set up his original account). No second cell phone. He has 1 credit card & I pay the bill & see the transactions. He knows that he can take a look at my phone & emails at any time.

He knows that I don't want to be put in the spot of "mom" - that's not my place in his life. I want a partnership where we can enjoy each other's company.

It's Friday, the weather is going to be gorgeous today & I'm going out to dinner with my DIL tonight. Leaving the guys to finish watching the draft w/o us.

I'm thinking that I'll probably need 3-4 months.

I think that I worded badly the thing that you quoted that resulted in what I quoted, above.

Let me try that again.

Whether you decide to D or R in 3-4 months isn't as important as deciding to review the situation at specific intervals about whether you're going to try to R, or deciding to continue giving R a chance, or if there's been a deal breaker of some sort in the previous period. Something like, "Well, we're 2 years in to trying to R. At the last review, 18 months out, I noticed some slackening of his growth. Here at 2 years it has (improved, continue to try R, stayed steady and I'm less and less happy, what to do?, or he's gone back to his old ways and I cannot handle that).

Then, based upon which of the three you observe, you make a decision about what to do and when to review again.

Trust takes a long time to be built again. You might find yourself driven to be a super-attentive, super-suspicious, "Mom" or "Watcher" type for a while and that is okay. Comparing words to actions is actually quite important.

The "lizard brain" is a thing where men retreat from emotional or difficult conversations. We feel, um, attacked? maybe? sooner into such a conversation than women. Whether nature (genetics) or nurture (Western culture, society) I'm not arguing. The thing is, when he starts to shut down the conversation isn't going to go anywhere constructive because your and his goals have become different. You want information and he wants the conversation to end, or him to get away, or anything -but- the conversation.

That's when you agree to go to different rooms, or him a walk, or chop some wood, or a run or push-ups and then, in a short-ish while, you come back to the difficult conversation with goals realigned to be the same. His time before lizard brain occurs will increase as he sees that you're not attacking and his refractory period will decrease. It is a growth process.

How is _your_ mental attitude doing, in general? Are you hitting the gym, walking, running, taking hammers to the crockery?

Be aware that, when at dinner, you may suddenly feel an almost uncontrollable urge to confide in DIL. That's a normal feeling to have, the need to suddenly divest oneself of one's troubles. Awareness that the feeling might crop up can help you to be able to cope with the urge, should it develop. If I remember correctly you haven't disclosed his A to any family, so think about whether you want to or not to help reinforce your decision.

That last suggestion is now good coping skills are handled, through exercise (either mental or physical) of the situation before it occurs. Troops aren't just given a weapon and pointed at the front, they go through lots of training to learn how to react (cope) when in different, difficult situations.

I was thinking that in 3-4 months I might have a better handle on emotions & understanding what I want. Either way, reviewing emotions every quarter would need to be something to do.

H said he was thinking about telling our oldest son & I asked him to discuss in IC. Is this an urge to emotionally regurgitate (vomit) on somebody, just to relieve one's own guilt? I'm trying to be cautious and not do that, either.

Besides, isn't stressed just desserts spelled backwards? (LOL)

My mental attitude has been up & down. I've been getting out of the house more & walking around. The weather is finally getting better here, so I'm going to start leash training my puppy. I can use her as an excuse to get out but to really start working out the angst & anger. I have lunch set up next week with a person in my support network who knows about the A.

Unless somebody else knows and decides to tell your son I think that issue should stay between you, your husband and any therapists you might see. Children, no matter their ages, do NOT want that kind of info about their parents. At some point they might need to know that their father had an affair but not who with. That is way TMI.

I still think you and he need to deal with the fact that he cheated. He cheated. He planned on cheating again. You have to decide what that means for your marriage.

He now has enough info about his birth family that he can go slowly enough to see just who he wants in his life. There is something very off if his sister was that easy. I assume she knew the other siblings so why did she target your husband. He needs to recognize that something might be very “off”in this family and proceed with caution.

I assume she knew the other siblings so why did she target your husband.

Are you assuming that only leafield's husband was "targeted" by this woman? If so, why?

She could be working her way through her new brothers one by one.

Thanks, Cooley. I'm thinking that we shouldn't tell the kids unless it becomes necessary.

Yes, he cheated & the IC is going to work on the underlying issues. There are so many layers here that it's going to be a long process. That is going to be in addition to any MC.

I voiced the same concern about other sibs to my H & he said that isn't an issue. He may change his tune after the phone call we had with her Wednesday. (Side note: there is another of the bio brothers living with AP & OBS. H said AP wasn't interested in this other brother - yes, I asked. Whether that is going to change is an unknown.) The oldest brother lives in a different state & so less of an issue for right now.

We have 3 more sibs that we haven't met in person but have had phone contact. One is very quiet & difficult to get to know - which really isn't a bad thing. Another of his sisters & her hubby are terrific people & I'm looking forward to getting to getting to know them. Another is an interesting guy & reaches out sporadically.

His one sister (with the hubby) asked me about what I thought about the relationship between H & AP (before DDay) & is what made me deadset on checking H's phone. While I knew something was out of balance, I was starting to put things together. I'm 80% sure that she knows or wouldn't be totally surprised by disclosure. I was thinking of telling her, partly because she & her H may be able to help OBS when the poo hits the fan.

He cheated. He planned on cheating again. You have to decide what that means for your marriage.

This fact haunts me day & night. Would I be able to trust after this, am I opening myself up for additional betrayal, would I be able to make it through R, or am I better off to just cut my losses & leave? I'm not sure, so I ruminate....

DM, here’s the thing.....she and her H don’t really know this family. We always present the best of ourselves at first so that is why I think going slow is best. He has time to absorb each new relationship before jumping into the “deep end”. Also, the behavior of the AP is so out there that the rest of the family knows things about her that they have not shared. Maybe she has made overtures to others. Who knows. The fact that she went from zero to sixty with a very vulnerable man means there are still lots of hidden issues.

His cheating is his cheating. He has no excuse. My thoughts are that he has two completely different issues. Why did he cheat is number one. What happened in his childhood is the other. He has to take ownership of his behavior. I can tell you from my training that his adoption at age four had a profound impact on his abilities to form healthy, trusting relationships. He needs a very good therapist to get him through that trauma and he needs a very forgiving wife if he hopes to save his marriage,

Cooley2here, I do not disagree with you. I had one comment / question about a single sentence of yours, that's all.

I think that we're talking at cross-purposes at this point. In the interests of not thread-jacking leafields JFO post I note that we both have over 50 posts, enough for either of us to PM the other.

leafields, you said:

H said AP wasn't interested in this other brother - yes, I asked.

Do not assume this to be true, though, especially because it is something that AP said. She lies. Often.

That's a real consequence of people lying and we finding out about it - their credibility on _anything_ drops, and it drops the most around the very subject that they were lying about.

That's a real consequence of people lying and we finding out about it - their credibility on _anything_ drops, and it drops the most around the very subject that they were lying about.

I agree - I had a little bit of a discussion about that with H. She's a serial cheater & has admitted to 2 other A. She lies & there are probably more As that she's not admitting. Not sure he believes there's more, but I do.

Remeber your emotions will go through a rollercoaster. It seems he doesn't regret getting caught more like WTH was I thinking. Am I wrong here?

Remeber your emotions will go through a rollercoaster. It seems he doesn't regret getting caught more like WTH was I thinking. Am I wrong here?

Rollercoaster - sometimes I feel numb, dissociative, angry, hurt, and within seconds of each other.

At first, I thought he was more sorry that he got caught but he does seem to be remorseful. But then I feel like I can't tell because my intuition is off. He realizes that he's really made a huge mistake. At this point, I don't know if I can trust my intuition.

Had an appointment with an attorney. He said that more than likely I'd have to pay spousal support. We could work it out through mediation that he could keep the house in lieu of spousal support. (I know that he won't want to sell the house.) He said that in our state, we would need to live separately before filing, and there's only a slight advantage to being the first one to file. I forgot to ask about a post-nup but will try to remember for the next appointment. (Will go through more IC before I'm ready for that.)