SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thank you, (((BraveSirRobin))).

Is anyone else reading this thread struck by the disproportionate amount of pressure/assumptions placed on women for how they dress in the eyes of others, and how comparatively less pressure men face? I'm sure part of it has to do with harassment and sexual assault stats: men, women, anyone and everyone can wind up a victim of this, and we owe those survivors our support and kindness; disproportionately, women suffer this more frequently than men (which is NOT to discount the male survivors at all!). Which means it's a reality for far more women than men. And women are also the ones most judged on their physical appearance - not always, but certainly by social standards: a man will be judged by what he DOES, while a woman will be judged by how she LOOKS. It seems very unhealthy and sends sickness to the pits of my stomach just thinking about it. It's a trap for us. Such a "simple" thing has the potential to hurt us so badly, and then even worse, to be blamed for another person's actions against us, based on what we wore, not who we are.

It makes me sad.

So let me get this straight:

-Women dress for themselves.

-Next acceptable answer is women dress for other women.

-Women dress due to social constructs.

-Men are at fault.

Sounds logical.

WCE, I don’t usually have enough boobage to need an underwire bra unless I’ve just recently had a baby and my boobs are exploding bountifully with milk. But I will say that a.) I don’t and have never found underwire uncomfortable and b.) I myself love boobs and how they look, pretty much any way, but including pushed up in underwire, so it would STILL have nothing to do with what a guy would think lol.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 6:41 PM, April 2nd (Tuesday)]

I don't think men are at fault. There are a lot of factors that go into it, and it's complicated. It involves everyone, society as a whole, in so many different ways. But I wouldn't blame men. Where did that come from?

Wow, this thread triggered the hell out of me. Unbelievable. There is some good stuff here but some of it makes me so sad.

I will take this back to our origins, and that of the flora and fauna of our existence. Males and females are born with one intention and one intention only, and that is to BREED. It is in our self interest consciously or not to look attractive to the other sex. You are doing it, even if you don't think you are, unless you are purposefully self sabotaging yourself. Animals large and small have developed ways to attract members of the opposite sex, through coloration, sound calling, dancing, nest building and fighting. Its bred into us and you have very little control over this part of nature. Sure, you've got a bigger brain, and choices, but we're not that far out in our development, our existence is short compared to other species who all have similar goals of mating and attracting a mate.

I respectfully disagree. My innate drive to survive overrode my desire to attract a mate via clothing choices by my mid teens. Survival before mating. I can't even believe I have to type that.

[This message edited by KatyaCA at 6:51 PM, April 2nd (Tuesday)]

A study conducted by Vohs showed that women do not like it when they notice that other women dress to appear sexy to men or that the way women are dressed may appear sexy to men (e.g., underwear advertisements). Thus, women may notice when other women dress sexy in the eyes of men and are aware that specific clothing may be perceived as sexy by men and thus can serve a purpose. And yes, women AND men alike, when they have a specific purpose why would they then not also wear the clothing that suits that purpose.

[This message edited by babypuke at 7:04 PM, April 2nd (Tuesday)]

Every female I see dressed sexy dressed that way to get my attention.

We get this question all the time at Victorian events about corsets. Was it all forced on women by men. No. An unlaced woman was a "loose" woman. This was mostly about women wanting to appear respectable. However, women pioneers or on farms often didn't wear one or wore a modified version of stays that allowed more flexibility with fewer bones. The fully boned corset was mostly to support hoops and layers of petticoats or bustles. Without the corset, these add weight and dig into your waist and press on hip bones. The corset distributes the weight a d holds the bosom. It also aids posture so you have an elegant line while sitting or standing.

The bustle was an odd thing too. After the first bustle period, there was a period of years called natural form ( my favorite years) where the bustle was not worn but this only lasted a short time because the bustle came roaring back bigger than before. All the more to flaunt yards of expensive fabrics and trims.

Corsets didn't have to be laced tightly and be uncomfortable. A well made corset is more comfortable than underwire at the end of a long day. Truthfully the Pioneer homestead corsets are really nice if you don't need the extra boning and aren't going to wear a hoop and extra petticoats.

I write all this because we get asked all the time about it. I think people think Victorian women didn't have much choice. We know that they did because of all the comfortable house dresses and " wrappers " that they wore for comfort. Women put great thought into their clothes and hairstyles both for themselves and to show their place in society. Pioneer women loved to show each other what they made and because they had so few dresses, they put much consideration and care into planning them. As far as I can tell, they dressed to attract a husband and after that for themselves, each other and society.

GoldenR: Every female I see dressed sexy dressed that way to get my attention.

Like I said before... I think most women will not admit to this but YES... many many are dressing for men... women only care if your wearing Haute Couture and I honestly and at a point in my life where I dress for comfort. No heels no dresses nothing tight and zero makeup. I’m a rare bird I know but I really don’t give a damn because no one is going to F me! Now post Affair I lost lots of weight and I was splurging on me so there was a time that I felt sexy so guess what I dressed nice and guys noticed... but nothing revealing or boobage

now I don’t dress up for anything... unless I am going out to a formal work related but no heels and avoid skirts. Etc.

[This message edited by Hurtbeyondtime at 7:30 PM, April 2nd (Tuesday)]

Well that's some sort of gender- normativity on my part. I plead guilty and am donning a hair-shirt, forthwith.

I am not remotely fussed. I took my name from a Monty Python character who talks a good game about courage and integrity until he gets in a tight spot, at which point he turns tail and runs. It seemed like a good handle for a recovering wayward.

"what I was wondering is, does this boil down to internal/external validation behavior?"

Here is the original question so I'll answer this from my point of view.

I will take this back to our origins, and that of the flora and fauna of our existence. Males and females are born with one intention and one intention only, and that is to BREED. It is in our self interest consciously or not to look attractive to the other sex. You are doing it, even if you don't think you are, unless you are purposefully self sabotaging yourself. Animals large and small have developed ways to attract members of the opposite sex, through coloration, sound calling, dancing, nest building and fighting. Its bred into us and you have very little control over this part of nature. Sure, you've got a bigger brain, and choices, but we're not that far out in our development, our existence is short compared to other species who all have similar goals of mating and attracting a mate.

So while no one here is saying that you are purposefully dressing to attract the opposite sex, in a way, nature has caused all species to develop ways to attracting the opposite sex. We know that men are visual creatures. So to say that Men do not and are not attracted by the way a women looks is just outright stupid, and I don't think anyone is arguing that point. So if we look at our OPs original question, do women dress for internal/external validation, and the answer is a def yes. Is this every day, every time No. They are either validating themselves (dress for me as they say), or they are dressing b/c they believe it looks good in societies eyes.

Are there women out there that just don't give a rats---, yes! I know one of them, shes my mother at over 80, she no longer cares. She wears pajamas all day everyday, and only changes to go to the store. But are there women/girls that do care a lot, YES. I see them daily splashing make up on looking at the mirror in their cars, while almost crashing into other vehicles, or are brushing on their eye liner/lash extenders or whatever you call them at the stop light. They care, I promise you they do.

Look at the big beauty chains like Sephora, Lancome..... to clothing companies that are worth billions, they also spend millions marketing this beauty. If no one cared, there wouldn't be all this money being thrown into fashion and make up.

Is anyone else struck by how Heteronormative this is? Like not everyone is even into the opposite sex

If women dress to attract the opposite sex to breed and I’m no longer a “breeder” then why do I dress that way?

Just read the first few posts.

I have always and only heard women claim that they

do not dress to attract men. They say that they

dress to look better than their competition, other

woman. Claiming that women do not want other woman

to judge them poorly.

But when you see women dressing to look better than

their competition, wear clothing that show cases

their assets, they are dressing to make them selves

feely good about their appearance, they are also

wanting men to find them attractive.

I don't know how a man can even answer this question.

Is anyone else struck by how Heteronormative this is? Like not everyone is even into the opposite sex

Yup, WCE and I mentioned that, too, and silverhopes reminded us about the transgender point(s) of view.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 8:52 AM, April 3rd (Wednesday)]

I feel this is one of those questions laced with land mines. I wonder if some are giving the scripted answers, the answers we are SUPPOSED to give in this day and age.

I’m older now and have endured brokenness so I no longer care what I wear. If I have to go anywhere, my closet strategy is “what is the most casual and comfortable choice I can get away with and how fast can I get back home and into my same crappy clothes.” And I can honestly say that I do not dress for anyone other than myself....NOW. But in my single 20s, when my friends and I went out (BOTH genders) I would be lying if I said we didn’t “dress to impress.” But that was then. And the status item of clothing was brand name jeans.

I have read a time or two where someone mentions how the AP dresses slutty.... I guess we shouldn’t say that then because maybe she is truly dressing for herself and not our husbands? I KNOW my husband’s girlfriend dressed for him! Absolutely. And every other man that walked into that office. It was NOT a dressy place nor was it a place where many women entered. She especially liked to show off her enhancements.

And if someone DOES dress to attract a certain gender, can you blame them? Look around, we are surrounded by messages that we need to do this. It is relentless. Even in my 50s I fall for this. Why do I buy any new clothes or makeup or get my hair colored if ON SOME LEVEL I am not trying to keep up.

After DDay, I really got triggered by what women wore or surgically did to themselves. I know it is a reflection on my lack of self-esteem. But what does that really matter in this society. There is “ how it should be “ and then there is the “how it really is.” Sad.

I can appreciate all sides of this issue, no matter the gender or gender preference. And, yes, to each his own.

[This message edited by Hg65 at 11:06 AM, April 3rd (Wednesday)]

I'm not understanding the men who think we're saying everything is their fault. I haven't read every post, but I don't think anyone is saying that. Can someone please explain?

And if someone DOES dress to attract a certain gender, can you blame them? Look around, we are surrounded by messages that we need to do this. It is relentless. Even in my 50s I fall for this. Why do I buy any new clothes or makeup or get my hair colored if ON SOME LEVEL I am not trying to keep up.

Of COURSE you can't blame them. It works. It works amazingly well. If it didn't, people would stop doing it, because, let's be honest, it takes a lot of time and money to pick out, buy and "use" all the various products that people use to enhance their sexual attractiveness to the opposite sex. Take that away, it's a complete waste of time.

And people have always done and will always do this at least until the desire to show off and/or the desire to have sex with others is extinguished. Why buy a Rolex if your not trying to impress other people? Oh, because you really love watches? Come on, there are fake Rolex's that are identical, part of part, inside that cost a 100th of what the real one costs. You're buying it, real or fake incidentally, to show off your wealth because that works, either to impress women (most of the reason) or to intimidate men and say "f((k you, I can afford to spend more on my watch than you can a car). Eww, that's an ugly way to look at it, let's all just go back to pretending that people really just like watches!

Anything that has little/no actual utility (a watch would fall into this category, as would 300 dollar "designer" jeans vs 10 dollar KMart jeans) like this is almost always purchased with the intention of "showing off" to some degree or another. Sometimes it's not even known to the person buying it (man, I really do love Rolex watches and somehow feel they are better than the identical replica I can get for much less money) and other times it's front and center, "I'm going to buy this watch to show the world how rich I am". It really matters not, you send the same message to people who see that watch regardless, "wow, that person is RICH".

And that's the thing, your intent really makes no difference at all to the person getting the message. You might wear skin tight yoga pants because you have varicose veins and it helps keep them from becoming worse, but the message you are sending is still "look at my butt" to a whole lot of guys. Just like I might wear a Rolex because it was passed from my father to me and it has a ton of sentimental value. Still says "f**k you" to a lot of people who see it and realize it costs more than they made last year. And it's incumbent on me to make sure I'm delivering an appropriate message with the way that I dress. I wear a suit to some meetings not because it's comfortable, but because I want to send a message "I respect you, and I want to earn your business". I could wear a tank top instead and show off my build, but that would send another message entirely, one that I DO NOT want to send when I'm sitting down to close a big deal. Even if I'm thinking "But I do respect you and I want to earn your business" sitting there in a tank top, my presentation and clothing is sending an entirely different message, "look at me, I'm hot and your not, I don't take this meeting seriously enough to change out of my gym clothes, or, if selling to a woman, I'm good looking enough that you should just buy from me because I'll come and grace you with my presence". Not at ALL the messages that I want to send, so, instead of the tank top, I suit up, choke myself with a tie, shave and present myself in the way that portrays the message that I want the customer to leave with.

I feel like this could be a tricky question only because I don’t think it matters how a women or I dress, men will still notice. Maybe a women dresses to impress certain type of men? I could go to the store with a simple shirt and sweat pants and that don’t mean a man won’t notice me or hit on me. I certainly don’t dress nice to impress men or feel in competition with other women. There will always be someone who will be prettier then me. I like to dress nice because I like to take pride in myself. And not all men have the same taste on how a women looks good either. Some men like the nice dress up type but others like the lay back look also. I think some people like to impress people because the nature of their jobs or maybe they feel judged by their looks. We live in a world that people will judge you no matter what. There is no right look for everyone because everyone has different taste.