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Why did you flirt with the OW when you met her? Were you considering this harmless? Where do you think your wife's accusations are coming from?

OW was attractive and was interested in what I was saying and I was a little frustrated with my wife so I was really flirtatious with her. Much more than I've ever been with anyone else in years. I thought she was very cute and she goes to the same University I graduated from so there was an easy starting off point. I thought in harmless in it was fun and I wouldn't see her again.

I've flirted before but never in front of my wife and never to the extent where it is aggressive or wrong. Looking back I probably was over the line with OW. My wife accuses me because of control issues. 100% control.

By the way, don't let anyone rush you into confessing. If you decide it's tomorrow night, prepare yourself today and tomorrow afternoon. Take deep breaths and remember we are here to support you.

Thanks. I've been reading your thread multiple times and there is so much helpful information there so thank you. I know I'm not ready right now and I think tomorrow is better. There is no need to rush this.

How is your wife responsible for you sleeping with someone else?

Please explain, maybe if you try you will see how ridiculous that statement is.

Yes, there are problems in a lot of marriages, but cheating is not the solution.

Its that my wife (and my actions) set the stage for making an affair seem like an option. We both are responsible for that. My wife for constantly doubting me and accusing me and not trusting me. It takes a toll. There are some sexual issues too but I'd rather not go into it. I'm not saying she made me cheat but all I'm saying is some of her actions made our marriage so weak.

Cheating is not a solution and I'm not saying it is!

May I inquire why divorce was not an option?

2 kids and one on the way. I don't want to walk away from them and our marriage was a functional one. There are times when we are so happy together and I didn't want to blow it all up so I could get laid more.

Because you have now become the worst possible H does this give her the right to go out and cheat on you? I am really interested on your answer to that.

It gives her the right IMO. I would hope she doesn't though.

I'm sorry if I've struck a nerve or anything like that. I'm just trying to express how I feel and be honest.

- Noah

I spent years and years of being accused of infidelity wrongly

My BH had told me several times that he felt if either one of us were to have an A it would be me. So that gives me permission right? He said it, so I may as well prove him right. If you are being accused of having an A, why not? I have a family member that was accused if rape too. Never happened. But since he was accused, he should probably go out and do it. Sounds crazy, huh? Yet you have managed to use it as a justification. I did too, but that doesn't make it any more right.

I called off the affair in the middle of the affair for two weeks and tried to open up to my BW and the best husband I can and she continued to ignore me and just was annoyed that I was trying.

Wow, you are a real standup guy to give her two whole weeks to get her shit together. How commendable to put your piece on the side off for two weeks just to see if your wife would live up to your expectations. How could she possibly pass a test she has no idea she is taking? Look, I have BTDT. I had the nerve to get upset that BH didn't compliment me on how nice I looked as I was heading out the door to fuck who he thought was his best friend. Real nice, huh? The point is, you are putting your BW in the middle of your games. Not only doesn't she know the rules, but she has clue she is even playing.

My problem is I don't hate the OW, I don't really completely regret my affair, and I still look back at the affair positively.

Of course you don't hate her and you look at it positively. You haven't experienced the damage it has done yet. You haven't seen the excruciating pain on your wife's face. You haven't owned your own actions because you are blame shifting onto your wife. You haven't felt what it is like to lose the thing that is the most valuable thing to you. You don't even realize how valuable it is.

But your question is how long did it take to reach a point of shame?

For me about 36 hours. I spent the first 12 avoiding BH and planning a life with the MOM. I assumed I knew how BH felt about these things as well and ran because what other choice did I have? Turns out I had a lot if other choices...better ones actually. And when I could sit down and look at the pain my BH felt, I mean really look at it, my heart broke.

I had known all along what I was doing was harmful to him. That it was wrong. And not just because of consequences but because its just not how people should be treated. It's just plain wrong.

Don't keep your wife in the dark any longer. Let her in on her own life.

My wife for constantly doubting me and accusing me and not trusting me.

I feel like there's something I'm missing. What would a typical argument look like about this sort of thing? Would she see you looking at a girl and then ask you if you were making eyes at her? Would someone call you and then she would ask if it's a girl? Have you watched porn? How have you responded when she brings it up? Did you try to explain? Did you yell at her? Did you leave the argument? Did you find some way reassure her?

It almost sounds like you had the A specifically to hurt your wife. It sounds like the A was a big "f*** you!" to her. What do you think?

You didn't strike a nerve. I am trying to get you to see that one spouses actions inside of a marriage doesn't not give the other spouse permission to go out and betray them. And that is what you have done. You felt one way, and instead of sitting your wife down and talking to her, and asking for marriage counseling, or at the very worst, telling her that you were going to D her, you went out and betrayed yourself, your values, your beliefs and your family. How did that fix one damm thing? How have you made anything better?

I knew you would answer that she would have the right to go out and cheat on you. But actually she doesn't. No one has the right to go do that. It is unfortunate that you are so stuck in this mindset. You have sold yourself a bill of goods. And that is that, you are entitled to everything you have been doing, because your marriage sucked. If your wife would have done xyz well then I could have been happy and I would not have done this.

Guess what, that wasn't her job. It was yours.

2 kids and one on the way. I don't want to walk away from them and our marriage was a functional one. There are times when we are so happy together and I didn't want to blow it all up so I could get laid more.

I was afraid that would be your answer. I guess affairs don't harm children, there is never collateral damage to innocent people who had no choice and we are supposed to love and protect. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a functional marriage defined by one spouse having an affair. If your lucky, your marriage won't be blown up, but I'm pretty certain your wife's life, and that of your children, will never be the same. Uncertainone had some advice in another thread here in Wayward to someone who was having doubts that I thought was spot on concerning children:

"Look at them. See the trust they have in you knowing it's unfounded and based on lies. They're the real BS's here. The innocents that don't have any other options but to depend on the very people fucking them over with ever thought and action. Don't you want to protect them and save them from those people? Then stop being one of those people. Think about them. Pick up one of their little toys and keep it in your pocket like a worry stone. Every time you want to txt, call, see, touch it and imagine the pain you're inflicting on them. You'll stop if there is any integrity or love for them in you."

That's good advice there.

I hope you have the courage to confess to your wife before she finds out on her own. Take some time and go read a bit in JFO, you might get an idea of how your wife might react when she does.

Noah,

I'm sorry if I've struck a nerve or anything like that. I'm just trying to express how I feel and be honest.

That's not it. We are all trying to give you the honest feedback that I think you want. If you wanted agreement, I think you would have gone elsewhere. I have realized that the people that I had surrounded myself with before, and during my affairs were all very healthy. I could look at them and think, at least I am not that bad.

The people you are hearing from on SI just seem to be seeing in you things that we have seen in ourselves before, and personally, I wish I had come here before I was so deep in my A, and even before BW found out about it so I could have gotten the support to confess. In my previous post it might have seemed like I was trying to rush you into confessing. I know in my case it is just too easy to put things off, and find excuses. Take your time. Sort out what you want to say, even put together a timeline of some sort to help you get your thoughts together.

Another thing, about the flirting;

I thought in harmless in it was fun and I wouldn't see her again.

I used to flirt too, thinking it was harmless, but it really isn't, not when you are married at least. Your attention and energy should be on your wife, not the cute girl you see at a restaurant while your wife is somewhere else waiting for you.

I used to think I knew what my BW was thinking, or would say. In conversations after my A was discovered I was completely wrong. My BW wishes that I would have flirted with her, while I flirted with other women. She wishes I sent her funny emails, spent my energy on her. She craved that, all the while I thought she didn't care or love me anymore.

Talk to your wife, and don't assume that your know the answers.

So you admit to years worth of flirting(not in front of your wife mind you) and she does not have a reason to doubt your sincerity, not trusting you and accusing you. She couldn't have possibly known or seen what you do around other women. Interesting how that is all on your wife.

A word of advice from a FBW, when I found out that my FWH had hidden his affair(s)from me...I filed for divorce. He had every opportunity to come clean and not force me to live a lie. He felt that his flirting was harmless same as you. I confronted him more than once...he didn't care. He felt justified in his actions. I felt justified in filing. He opened his eyes eventually and I called off the divorce. Be very careful...you are playing with someone else's life.

Flirting is never harmless. Its actually an open invitation or fishing attempt by either side to see if there is reciprocation for some taudry encounter. Makes me sick!

Listen to what these people are telling you!

My BH had told me several times that he felt if either one of us were to have an A it would be me. So that gives me permission right? He said it, so I may as well prove him right. If you are being accused of having an A, why not? I have a family member that was accused if rape too. Never happened. But since he was accused, he should probably go out and do it. Sounds crazy, huh? Yet you have managed to use it as a justification. I did too, but that doesn't make it any more right.

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm trying to explain what led to the affair and how my wife's mistrust and accusations helped the affair happen. Instead of feeling guilty like I would have if she trusted me I felt resentful and like I deserved to do it because I was being blamed anyways. It was an unhealthy mindset.

Wow, you are a real standup guy to give her two whole weeks to get her shit together. How commendable to put your piece on the side off for two weeks just to see if your wife would live up to your expectations. How could she possibly pass a test she has no idea she is taking? Look, I have BTDT. I had the nerve to get upset that BH didn't compliment me on how nice I looked as I was heading out the door to fuck who he thought was his best friend. Real nice, huh? The point is, you are putting your BW in the middle of your games. Not only doesn't she know the rules, but she has clue she is even playing.

Well, that is fucked up about his best friend. I guess I can take some peace in knowing I'm not the worst. His best friend? Jesus Christ. For a year. And he took you back?

Most of the other people I've talked to who are in "our" position were people who were in sexless or abusive marriages. Anyways about your point.

I wasn't testing my wife. I just wanted her to show something, anything that she cared. My wife was angry that I was trying to make our marriage better and get us closer. I didn't plan on it being a test but when she didn't care at all it was easier to fall back into the affair. But it wasn't any sort of test.

I feel like there's something I'm missing. What would a typical argument look like about this sort of thing? Would she see you looking at a girl and then ask you if you were making eyes at her? Would someone call you and then she would ask if it's a girl? Have you watched porn? How have you responded when she brings it up? Did you try to explain? Did you yell at her? Did you leave the argument? Did you find some way reassure her?

It almost sounds like you had the A specifically to hurt your wife. It sounds like the A was a big "f*** you!" to her. What do you think?

Woah. Lot of questions.

I should say I am not a constant flirt or anything like that. With OW was the first real time I flirted with any motivation. My "flirting" before OW consisted of maybe teasing a female friend or coworker or friendly complements. Nothing sexual at all and nothing over-the-top.

She questions relationships with coworkers, accuses me of wanting other women, accuses me of cheating on her when I'm gone for work trips. I usually try to explain what happened or just apologize to make it easier on us. Let it blow over.

Yes, I watch porn. Nothing extraordinary and not too frequently. I'm not sure if this is really relevant.

And I guess the affair was kind of a "Fuck you" to my wife. It was my way of sort of throwing off what I felt were her shackles on me.

I knew you would answer that she would have the right to go out and cheat on you. But actually she doesn't. No one has the right to go do that. It is unfortunate that you are so stuck in this mindset. You have sold yourself a bill of goods. And that is that, you are entitled to everything you have been doing, because your marriage sucked. If your wife would have done xyz well then I could have been happy and I would not have done this.

Guess what, that wasn't her job. It was yours.

That was a trap question. If I said, No I am a hypocrite. If I say, Yes then this answer. There was no right response.

I should not have cheated. If I end up losing my wife (who I do love by the way despite all this complaining) and my children I will hate myself. It was wrong to do to her and dishonest and just shitty. So I agree with you.

I was afraid that would be your answer. I guess affairs don't harm children, there is never collateral damage to innocent people who had no choice and we are supposed to love and protect. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a functional marriage defined by one spouse having an affair. If your lucky, your marriage won't be blown up, but I'm pretty certain your wife's life, and that of your children, will never be the same. Uncertainone had some advice in another thread here in Wayward to someone who was having doubts that I thought was spot on concerning children:

"Look at them. See the trust they have in you knowing it's unfounded and based on lies. They're the real BS's here. The innocents that don't have any other options but to depend on the very people fucking them over with ever thought and action. Don't you want to protect them and save them from those people? Then stop being one of those people. Think about them. Pick up one of their little toys and keep it in your pocket like a worry stone. Every time you want to txt, call, see, touch it and imagine the pain you're inflicting on them. You'll stop if there is any integrity or love for them in you."

That is the worst part of this. I am ashamed of what I've done to my children and my family. I'm not there with my wife and I but with my kids it was so fucking wrong. They didn't deserve this at all. It was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Thank you for posting this.

A word of advice from a FBW, when I found out that my FWH had hidden his affair(s)from me...I filed for divorce. He had every opportunity to come clean and not force me to live a lie. He felt that his flirting was harmless same as you. I confronted him more than once...he didn't care. He felt justified in his actions. I felt justified in filing. He opened his eyes eventually and I called off the divorce. Be very careful...you are playing with someone else's life.

I'm about 90% sure my wife will do the same. I am just going to confess everything and be honest and ask her for a second chance. She probably won't give me it but all I can do is hope at this point.

Listen to what these people are telling you!

I'm trying too! I'm sorry if it seems like I'm not but I am trying my hardest to listen to everyone.

Most of the other people I've talked to who are in "our" position were people who were in sexless or abusive marriages.

From what I've seen here on SI, those cases are definitely in the minority.

From what I've seen here on SI, those cases are definitely in the minority.

I think that could just be a cover story too. Maybe they weren't owning up to the full truth. They were pro-adultery so probably best to take their words at less than full truth.

My situation wasn't quite sexless or abusive, though it wasn't a healthy, happy marriage either. I think the cheating came down to mostly me being selfish.

Well, that is fucked up about his best friend. I guess I can take some peace in knowing I''m not the worst. His best friend? Jesus Christ. For a year. And he took you back?

Most of the other people I''ve talked to who are in "our" position were people who were in sexless or abusive marriages. Anyways about your point.

I would be very careful here. If you think you''re in a position to throw stones you are mistaken. The waywards who are offering to their time deserve more respect than that.

[This message edited by cdnmommy at 9:59 PM, November 14th, 2012 (Wednesday)]

My "flirting" before OW consisted of maybe teasing a female friend or coworker or friendly complements. Nothing sexual at all and nothing over-the-top.

I know flirting is a grey line for a lot of people. I personally see flirting as sending someone the signal that you're available and willing. Is it possible that your wife sees flirting in that light as well? It might be something to talk about - but that talk might have to wait for a long time. Dealing with your A comes first and foremost.

She questions relationships with coworkers, accuses me of wanting other women, accuses me of cheating on her when I'm gone for work trips.

It can be really stressful when one spouse works out of town or is gone a lot. How often are your work trips, and how long are you away for? Is it possible that this is taking a toll on her? Does she raise the kids while you're gone? Pre-A, we might ask you if there would be a way to rearrange your work so you don't take so many trips, if any, if this is a point of stress between you two. If you two happen to R, this might be something you consider anyway.

Yes, I watch porn.

This is another area where YMMV depending on the couple. More questions... Do you two watch it together? Does your wife have any objections to porn? Does she know you watch porn or do you not tell her? Have you ever had any fights about it before?

A bit of personal experience: when H and I could resume post-partum intimacy, I was deeply hurt when he rejected me. A month later, I found out that he was watching porn. I already felt not quite like myself after giving birth, and here he was not only rejecting me, but preferring to watch some other (hotter) woman on a computer screen instead of be with me? It hurt my self-esteem ("I'm not hot enough for him, I'm not as hot as she is") and feelings of intimacy with him in a way I haven't gotten back yet. Part of that, of course, could be because he is unremorseful. But for some people, porn can really hurt intimacy. Food for thought.

My wife was angry that I was trying to make our marriage better and get us closer.

This is an odd statement. Why would she resist getting closer to you? Is there something (aside from your A obviously) that would have driven a wedge between you guys? Is it possible that she already knows of your A and was resisting to get close to you because it hurts? Or is she normally a person who likes her space? Did you talk to her directly about why she wasn't wanting to be close to you? What did she say?

It sounds like MC might have really helped get to the bottom of some of your conflicts. Unfortunately, your A has just made a nuclear mess of your M.

I think the cheating came down to mostly me being selfish.

Bingo! This is a good start.

ETA: Another thing I'm wondering - how is her pregnancy going? Is it possible that some of her difficulty in feeling close has to do with her body changing and feeling out-of-sorts? Just thoughts. If you've been in an A for two months, no matter how you might try to stay connected at home, it is very probable that you've been missing a lot of what's going on, especially more subtle emotional issues. With the A, you're not in the same world as your family anymore.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 10:20 PM, November 14th (Wednesday)]

I would be very careful here. If you think you''re in a position to throw stones you are mistaken. The waywards who are offering to their time deserve more respect than that.

I wasn't trying to throw stones, I was just honestly taken aback. I know I'm in no position to judge. I cheated on my pregnant wife. I'm fucked up too. So it wasn't even meant as an attack.

Its interesting thought that mocking me as such a "standup guy" and comparing me to rapists isn't a big deal.

It can be really stressful when one spouse works out of town or is gone a lot. How often are your work trips, and how long are you away for? Is it possible that this is taking a toll on her? Does she raise the kids while you're gone?

Work trips are rare. Mostly short trips to places that are a couple hours away. So I'm not working away from home for long periods of time. When I'm not at home she takes care of the kids by herself.

This is another area where YMMV depending on the couple. More questions... Do you two watch it together? Does your wife have any objections to porn? Does she know you watch porn or do you not tell her? Have you ever had any fights about it before?

Don't watch porn together. My wife doesn't have any objections or at least hasn't voiced them. We don't talk about porn much. I watch occasionally. Not been an issue for us in terms of fighting. She is the one rejecting me sexually in our marriage.

This is an odd statement. Why would she resist getting closer to you? Is there something (aside from your A obviously) that would have driven a wedge between you guys? Is it possible that she already knows of your A and was resisting to get close to you because it hurts? Or is she normally a person who likes her space? Did you talk to her directly about why she wasn't wanting to be close to you? What did she say?

I was trying so hard to make us better because of guilt from the affair. She just didn't want to do anything romantic for us. Her priority is our kids (as it should be) but she doesn't spend any effort maintaining our marriage. Maybe she was busy then, I don't know. She was tired and didn't want to deal with it. Our communication has been bad for a while so I honestly don't know why. She just wasn't open to anything. And then OW came back and started telling me how much she missed me and how badly she wanted to see me and the affair started back up.

She was tired

Please don't underestimate the importance of this. Does she work, or is she at home with the kids? There's a really good chance that she would LOVE to put more time and effort into her M with you, but - like you said - she feels very responsible for the kids. And maybe she feels like it's hard to get a break, or even guilty if she takes one.

Our communication has been bad for a while so I honestly don't know why.

Marriage counseling? Don't give up until you've thoroughly talked through everything. There's so much we don't know inside of our spouses.

Unfortunately, this will probably have to wait for now. Deal with your A first.

I'm trying to explain what led to the affair and how my wife's mistrust and accusations helped the affair happen.

No, what you are doing is what majority of cheaters do. BLAME EVERYONE ELSE!

I'm willing to bet that majority of the WS's felt like you do/did. They too probably felt like they weren't getting the attention they felt they deserved. You have to justify it somehow, right? Because EVERYONE knows that A's are WRONG.

It's not easy admitting fault.

It's not easy to admit that instead of doing what's right, you chose to be selfish.

You sound like a very weak & broken individual and you probably should consider getting yourself in IC.

Good luck, you are going to need it!

Keep reading in The Healing Library.

My heart goes out to your poor BW.

Please be very careful about blaming your wife for your bad decisions. Nothing she did nothing made you sleep with someone else. My WH blamed me and also his OW blamed me for their affair and I can tell you for a fact it almost took my life. I almost did not survive this it is only because of my 2 children that I am (after 2 1/2 years) able to talk on this site which also helped me realize I am not alone. To blame the spouse for your decision to have an affair is probably worse than admitting the affair to her at all.

When your gone from her and with the other person and life is normal again and not as exciting....that is when the shame will set in and then...it will be too late.

[This message edited by hailstormer at 11:20 PM, November 14th (Wednesday)]

Disclaimer: BS here. can't sleep & feeling a bit amped up on this topic. read at your own risk, Noah.

If she isn't so distant and if she doesn't spend years making me feel like a villain I wouldn't of cheated.

Did you ever discuss your feeling rejected? Your feeling disconnected with your wife? Talk constructively about what you want & need from a relationship and LISTEN to those same things from her? I would hazard a guess that you did not or if you did, it hasn't really been since you had kids.

What I am hearing is a lot of you trickle truthing yourself here. I do see some slight change in where this post began to your comments later. The point is you are being selfish. You cannot expect your BW to meet all your needs through mind-reading. Before you took a leap into A which you are still falsely justifying to yourself, you should have been in MC. Why wasn't that an option again? or divorce? separation?

It is obvious that you cannot effectively communicate your feelings or you wouldn't have went behind her back to ("F-you") have the A in the first place. Maybe she isn't good at communicating either or maybe she just feels trapped. Pregnant & trapped with her kids and a selfish, cheating husband. Maybe she feels she made a bad choice in YOU and is tired of having these discussions with YOU about your infidelity, but she retains her morals, values, and integrity by remaining committed to the family she has & is suffering silently for her children's sake.

You are remaining selfish in keeping this information to yourself. Let her see the full picture & make her own decisions, let her choose her own path. Stop thinking of yourself. It isn't only about you! When you married, you became one--vows, remember?

And some advice: When you tell her, you keep all the shit about not being all your fault to yourself. She will blame herself enough & doesn't need you doing it too. That is a guaranteed your ass is on the curb!

I've flirted before but never in front of my wife and never to the extent where it is aggressive or wrong.

Of course you didn't do it in front of her! You knew it was wrong & she wouldn't approve which is EXACTLY why she has accused you of cheating in the past! I could build a case that you already were being unfaithful to a degree here because you were hiding it. Secrets are not marriage friendly. Not expressing your true feelings in a constructive way is not marriage friendly.

I know this is a bit of an attack, but I feel you need to wake up here! You are still only thinking of yourself. You want to tell, but only because you arent a strong enough person to stay away on your own. "So, let me shove that extra responsibility to my pregnant wife who is already taking care of my other 2 kids"...you have to fix this! Read the life boat again (healing library)!

BTW, you have a baby on the way--how far along is your wife? Things you should consider: was she pregnant before your started your A? Or did it happen during your 2 week test or other course of the A?

She will want to know this. Do the damn math & figure it out. Give her a time line & make it an HONEST one.

In general, you need to find out on your own:

What makes me feel it is ok to cheat? Is this something you have done in past relationships? I second IC regardless of what happens with your marriage.

[This message edited by manybrokenpieces at 12:21 AM, November 15th (Thursday)]

Nobody made you cheat. That is the truth. You decided to make poor choice after poor choice. Blaming your spouse rationalizes your behaviors. All choices. You did it because you wanted to do so. Both of you have responsibility for your marriage, cheating is %100 on you.

Cheater,

When we try to justify what we're doing, we pay attention to the facts that make it better in our minds. I had multiple As, my marriage was not loveless, sexless, or abusive. I'm not in a state of disillusionment. During my As I told myself "I deserve to be happy, what he doesn't know won't hurt him, he doesn't pay attention to me anyway". That's entitlement and rewriting marital history.

My Bh also said that if I ever cheated he'd leave me. We just celebrated our 25th wedding anniversary and 5 years of R and we're happy.

You need to clear your brain, read what these posters are saying and lose the crap you have swimming around in your head that you've been buying into all this time to make room for the truth.