SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

very well put, Mindblown. Thanks for sharing those thoughts.

Been a tough couple of days. Lots more conversation and some of what we could call TT. No new infidelity but more in depth into her thoughts. Right now I am not up to writing all about it, but I will at some point.

JDUFF

Well, I'm just gonna put it out there. I'm not telling you to R or D, or to force her to quit her job, tell the kids, go full nuclear on her. All I'm saying is go forward with your eyes "wide open". You were given clues early in your situation and I imagine she is trying to or wanting to explain it away. I'm also saying try to avoid rugsweepeing as well and don't be so willing to give her gold stars for the small actions, for example with regards to her offering a poly up front. Ive read stories here it was done as a "preemptive" move rather than a proactive attempt to help the BS. Another member pointed out you'll soon know which one once it happens. Just don't be surprised at any backtracking or a complete 180 on their own behavior when shit gets real.

Walloped said it best that she needs to own her shit in full. That's what many if us say and that is a pretty important stage for a WS to reach to begin truly working on themselves to make you feel safe and to make an earnest attempt at reconciliation.

You are very correct in what you have said above about "eyes wide open". I think realizing what she is capable of whacks me enough to not get too complacent any time that I can foresee at this point.

Wallopeds point about owning her own shit is truth, but how the fuck do I measure that other than what I am doing. She is not blaming me and I believe she now is owning her shit. The questions is how do I totally believe that and how long does it take for me to believe what she says completely. Very confusing to say the least.

THE FLY

I did not read all thread and the parts I have you sound pretty angry ( understandable ) I am really sorry but I do not believe reconcile is possible in any marraige infidelity. I believe it is only a temporary fix , once that betrayal is done we just fool ourselves to make it work. I do however wish you the best of luck and I do know from experience that no matter what is said on this site whether you agree or not that you will do whatever you want because it is your life and your story.That is good. Strength to you brother

I do understand your point of view. You may be right. I just do not know at this point. I really appreciate the way you stated what you said in a constructive manner and not implying i was a fool. I respect your opinion.

MIND BLOWN

The fact that you even take the time to give a shit about what happens to me with what you have going on says a lot to me about your character and about you as a person. I am taking your advice and trying my best to listen to what people are saying if they expound on what they say and not just pronounce what an idiot I am.

Right now, I still do believe my situation will possibly, notice I said possibly, play out differently than yours did. I feel terrible even saying that to you.

My nerves are calmer now ( meds help).

ANIMAL DOC

He has made his decision and while people may question the decision it seems more positive that he tries to see how this one plays out.

I'd still make her boyfriend sweat it a little, because that is how I roll, but if he doesn't it's not like it's a huge issue, so I drop it in the interest of moving the thread along.

I have not made a decision that is not reversable. Please take my word for it, I have communication directly from OM wife that he IS sweating it out and more than a little. And I have offered to help her with cost of polygraph cost for him if she wants to do it. She is not playing doormat. Like everyone said, getting to her was a great move, and i am grateful for the unanimous sounding of that advice. if there is one thing I am willing to bet on it is that this affair is over.

I apologize for any lashing out I have done. it is a lot to absorb on top of the shit sandwich, as it is called here.

You're dealing with one of the worst things any person can endure in his/her life, so it's perfectly understandable that you aren't always 100%, either here on SI or in real life. Don't be hard on yourself. You're doing great and we're here for you!

Timetoact... To tell you the truth... I am hoping you and your wife reconcile! BUT... YOU need to be comfortable with that! Don't worry about my situation... It's all over except paying the lawyers and getting the SA signed! I already have a dozen friends wanting to hook me up. I have put them off for now. I have learned that my wife is just a heartless bitch who will never fess up the truth to ANYONE! So 'nuff said about that! HA! I switched lawyers on the advice of a friend. My new one is a lawyer AND a judge. (One that rotates in as needed to fill in.) From the people I talked to... They are afraid of him. When I called they said he wasn't seeing new clients. I did the name drop and then called my buddy back. He made a call and said not to worry... I have an appointment! I am hoping the appraisal comes in a hair lower than it did when we bought in summer and she will owe ME money! The thought that *might* happen just brightens my day!

Now... Your situation. You have to feel you have gotten the truth. Get the poly. Sounds like she is game for that. Something I originally told my wife when she agreed to the poly the FIRST time... Tell me the truth NOW so it is just verified by the poly and is not forced OUT by the poly. TELL ME! Earning trust back (I would think) will happen a little quicker than if you are busted out on a lie! Tell me NOW... I'm a big boy!

Perhaps your wife will do it in such a way that fills the spot you are missing. Your belief system is shot right now and you must have a million things running through your mind... Wanting to cover ALL the bases!

Regardless... You trusting her and her *earning* your trust back is going to take a L O N G time! But it should get easier as time goes by. What did Reagan say? Trust but Verify! As you verify the truth... She gets credit... She builds up and slowly earns back your trust and respect.

Only YOU can know this... Not the forum members here. YOU know what is comfortable and doable for you! I know you will make it happen!

If you don't mind me asking... What drug did the doc give you? Xanax? I was thinking about going in and getting some... But blowing off a few hundred rounds of ammo at my range every few days seems to be working so far. But there are weak moments when my mind runs away... I know that you know what I mean!

For me February is cleanup month... They are coming in the morning to demo my wood floors that were flooded... I need to get a few of the utilities switched over to my name. Schedule our last joint tax filing... Change my life insurance policies, change bank accounts, A bunch of BS like that!

Then... Come Spring time... I buy a Black Labrador and I'll call him Jack (as in Jack "Daniels" Black)... Jack will be a cute puppy and will attract MUCH attention when I walk him on the streets of Old Town Fredericksburg, VA. The women will flock to him and I will be interviewing the whole time! :) I plan on talking myself hoarse!

This has me excited beyond belief actually!

Hang tough... If you ever want to talk and vent... I have a lot of free time... LOL PM me your phone. I'll call you! I haven't seen where you've mentioned that you have a best bud that comes over to listen... Not saying I am that... Just someone who is going through something similar to compare notes with... Just sayin'

MindBlown,

Good comment.

But since DDay, I've amended Reagan's statement to: "Don't Trust and Verify."

See IMHO, trust, once broken, needs to be earned back. That doesn't mean it's lost forever, just that it will take a long time before I can fully and comfortably trust her again.

Very brief t/j -

MindBlown - I love the line in your sig-

That which does not kill me makes me stronger! (I am TIRED of being strong!)

When you're tired of being strong, and have definitely earned a break, you can mentally replace that with:

That which does not kill me can kiss my injured ass!!

Walloped - Good idea on the Trust but Verify thing, which never made much sense . . . as was pointed out, either you Trust OR you Verify. The two do not go together.

End t/j

I've amended Reagan's statement to: "Don't Trust and Verify."

Walloped... I stand corrected. (Bows to you!)

You are, of course in this case, entirely correct!

[This message edited by MindBlown at 8:15 PM, February 3rd (Wednesday)]

But since DDay, I've amended Reagan's statement to: "Don't Trust and Verify."

Totally agree with this one, but how do you VERIFY a wife who is gone unless you do polygraphs. Verifying is hard enough with someone who is in your proximity or an office same place every day.

I now have

(1) all dates and locations of upcoming trips

(2) copies of airline and hotel confirmations

(3) locations of appointments that are at present confirmed.

(4) access to all social media and passwords to all

The above given to me voluntarily and eagerly with no hesitation.

To be honest, I think it may be overkill because barring a polygraph result or having a PI follow her all the time, what have I really verified.???? I think the willingness to do it is what is important as anything else.

Mind Blown

In answer to your question, I got Xanax. I have set a limit for myself on how long I will take it. Hope I can hold to it. I cannot become reliant on drugs to function.

Timetoact

I been following your story but not posting until now.

I had to go back and check and found out you had been here only 2 weeks today. You've covered a lot of ground in those 2 weeks and you seem to be steamrolling towards a resolution.

You might think about just taking some time to digest all that you've taken in with no new input to confuse the issues.

I realize your a high level thinker, but even those types can be overwhelmed and maybe show a little anger.

I am among the camp that thinks that you are doing the right things, she is doing the right things and, given time, you have a very good chance of making your marriage work.

It is impossible to monitor her. In past posts, you seem to be worried about the other man. In your situation of fer traveling often and you being away often, I would be just as worried about a new atdifferent other man.

What I didn't like about your wife was her attitude IN MY OPINION that she was not "against" cheating. My wife hated cheaters and cheating, but she did it anyway, but she still thought it was wrong. I could be wrong, but I don't see that from your wife. As an example, my wife could not confide in her friends because they all are completely against cheating. I am talking about women who I've known 25-plus years, so I know their attitudes. I do believe about the "birds of a feather" to some degree. That also bothers me about that aspect in your situation. I don't know enough about your wife, though. I am curious to see if your wife will agree to jettison the toxic friend(s). My wife had "new" friends who couldn't care less about cheating, but my wife didn't know them well enough yet to confide. Plus my wife thought a few of them were interested in other man, too, and my wife was jealous.

Sorry, I'm rambling. What I figured two weeks after the affair ended was that monitoring will suck out your soul. Imagine, you have to monitor your own wife and guard her like a warden to keep her from fucking other men she wants to do. I would look at myself in the mirror in the morning and wonder how did I become such a sad pathetic excuse of a man, that I have to fit in some time each morning or night to make sure my wife hasn't run off somewhere today to go fuck another man. So I stopped monitoring. I figured there were signs before, but I just ignored the signs because I trusted her. But I won't ignore the signs anymore.

I told my wife that I would never accuse her of cheating ever again, because if I even suspect it, I will be gone and all I will discuss is the divorce, so please don't do anything to make me suspect.

I don't know what to advise about monitoring her. It's not something I can do and respect myself. I guess everyone has to figure their own thresholds on their own.

[This message edited by wk55hn at 11:59 PM, February 3rd (Wednesday)]

Re: monitoring trips. I used stealth software on phone to record "surroundings" at scheduled times. I could listen to what went on around her phone. It was reassuring to hear brushing teeth, the click of turning off the light, and the hvac in the background. Like a var.

I did this for awhile during trips until I became more trusting. Could she have snuck around anyway? Of course, nothing is foolproof. Did I feel bad about it? Hell no. Took me a long time to realize that EVERYTHING she told me was a lie. I was grasping at truth.

Timetoact... How DO you verify? The answer is... Little by little. The fact is that if someone really wants to lie and not get caught... They can do it successfully. Sometimes they get caught.

I would think if you had her email accounts, passwords, maybe installed web watcher software to see where she goes online, who calls her and what texts she sends/receives... It would give you some measure of comfort.

However... If she has an email account you don't know about or a burner cell phone... You won't know. But these can be more difficult to hide. If you were to find one... Then you would know your answer!

I recommend Web Watcher software... It is awesome stuff. You can drive yourself crazy though going through screen shots and emails... But it shows everything they do, go and see! The most telling shots on mine were her looking up the OM's phone number after I deleted it from her phone. Also, instead of looking into how to save the marriage, she was looking at tattoos and little dogs. This spoke VOLUMES! If you find nothing... You will check less often... Then only when you get an itch.

Keep us posted!

It is a tough spot- but you are handling it well.

I hate to add downer thoughts but...

(1) all dates and locations of upcoming trips

(2) copies of airline and hotel confirmations

(3) locations of appointments that are at present confirmed.

(4) access to all social media and passwords to all

The above given to me voluntarily and eagerly with no hesitation.

I had those things, too. However, exww continued in the A. I did catch very little before signing the D papers, but that little bit was the main impetus for the signing. After, the rest of the story came out as she attempted to hurt me with facts because I had the gall to follow through with the clearly stated divorce consequence. (facts confirmed by other BS)

She had established secret email accounts. Used the office phone instead of her cell. Deleted and purged emails that came to work email account. Changed hotel room reservations on check-in. The other deceit was fairly banal- staged pictures, text check-ins, earnest plan changes designed to make me think I was informed, and typical red herrings regarding work meetings. The lengths were uncanny as she presented a false front of remorse and effort. During this time, she also began establishing other A partners. This last detail led me to a careful review of our entire past- and red flags popped up all over. (at times I think I should DNA my younger littles- but it wouldn't change anything)

I would like to have more to offer than the caution. The post trip Polys seem a good idea to me. If it is a habit or a flippant belief that affairs don't hurt a marriage- then the deceptions are limitless and probably add to the illicit excitement of cheating.

Frankly, I agree with many other posters. I hope your WW decides to do all the right things and all the things you need to heal for the next two to five years.

Keep the strength. It will help with the emotional current shifts on this horrid journey. You are doing well considering the time frame.

I think the willingness to do it is what is important as anything else

Yes, it definitely is as well as the motivations behind doing so. Also, her being transparent and accountable to you really should be hers to own in full and hers to be proactive in propelling because what that effort needs to show you is that she wants to stay in the M to be with you, first and foremost, not because your children will think less of her or her lifestyle will be impacted. No other motivation but to be with you. She needs to prove to you she can be a safe person again, not you doing all the work proving that to yourself.

The proactive, rather than the reactive efforts on her part will be what build back some of the trust. What drive proactive actions is her remorse for her past actions. For her to have remorse she must be emphatic to your pain and what she put you through. For her to be emphatic she must be aware of what she really did. Only you can tell what stage she is at from what you observed so far.

Also, look up cognitive dissonance. For me the definition if the "fog" is one attempting to manage all the biological chemicals that occur during attraction in an affair through cognitive dissonance. The alternative is to manage it through ones own morals, principals, healthy boundaries. IMO, typically the dissonance lies in believing in monogamy but trying to rationalize a third person into the relationship. Hence the "secrecy" of the A as wk55hn points out and as walloped's FWW behaved in her A. I think it is less common when the dissonance lies in believing in polyamory but try to rationalize remaining in a monogamous relationship. Hence, the "once it's out in the open then trying to convince the BS that the arrangement is normal." I think your WW is somewhere between those two, more on the former than the latter.

All that above is just my humble assed opinion.

Yes, it definitely is as well as the motivations behind doing so. Also, her being transparent and accountable to you really should be hers to own in full and hers to be proactive in propelling because what that effort needs to show you is that she wants to stay in the M to be with you, first and foremost, not because your children will think less of her or her lifestyle will be impacted. No other motivation but to be with you. She needs to prove to you she can be a safe person again, not you doing all the work proving that to yourself.

The proactive, rather than the reactive efforts on her part will be what build back some of the trust. What drive proactive actions is her remorse for her past actions. For her to have remorse she must be emphatic to your pain and what she put you through. For her to be emphatic she must be aware of what she really did. Only you can tell what stage she is at from what you observed so far.

Excellent post Jduff!

[It is impossible to monitor her. In past posts, you seem to be worried about the other man. In your situation of fer traveling often and you being away often, I would be just as worried about a new atdifferent other man.]Wk55[/bold]

Wk55, you are right. In the beginning, obviously I had to be most worried about the OM. Quite frankly, until I managed to do what I believe has gotten that stopped, I really did not think too much about if there were any others.

Reading on here can be a real eye opener. I think there are two or three threads I have been reading where guys thought they were beginning to move towards reconciliation and then got whacked agaIn. At this point, I need to know or do whatever I can to find out if there have been any others, and that is where the polygraph will I hope resolve that. My wife swears there have been none, confessed about having dinner with two guys and nothing else.

Another veteran member was kind enough to reach out to me on PM and asked me on a 1-10 scale what my gut was telling me about the possibility that she has done this before. I answered no more than "2", probably less. I still feel that way and hope I am correct. The fact is also you are correct there is no way to monitor her continuously. So I will have to see how bad I stress out next week when she leaves for two nights and I am gone overnight before she gets back.

WK, I think I said she never "railed" about cheating and never expressed outrage when we had friends or acquaintances be impacted by infidelity. She never said she thought it was just OK. Just never got really exercised about it.

You are also right about monitoring will suck your soul. I am already mentally exhausted just thinking about it right now. Like everyone has pointed out, if they want to find a way to cheat they will. The big question is when to do the polygraph. She wants to do it right away and keeps pushing for it. That will answer the question if she has ever cheated before but will do nothing about checking on her trips. And of course, then I have the business meeting in March that she will go to where OM will be at. Maybe I do it now and then tell her at some point I want it again. I guess I am rambling.

I am having a hard time concentrating on my work, And this being alone in the house with her in another room is making it a lot more stressful. Every night she asks me if she can please just sleep near me.

I have more questions for her, some probably repetitive, that I will ask this week end. I have told her we need to talk more and she has agreed to talk as much as I need to.

J Duff, I do not think she believes in polyamory, but if I did I do not think she would go crazy. I did get the crap I have heard of that she would be OK if I had a RA if it made me feel better. I guess that is fairly standard babble.

Time for another Xanax and some sleep. Thanks again to all who have posted.

I did get the crap I have heard of that she would be OK if I had a RA if it made me feel better

Yup. That's one of the typical "rugsweep" moves by a WS. She still doesn't really get it. Not yet.

I know this shit is very taxing on all your resources. This is where the 180 really pays off for you in your mental, emotional and physical health. Just detach when it gets overwhelming and go treat yourself well. In a way, getting betrayed is getting the wind knocked out of you. First you gotta catch your breath, then your senses. Pretty soon you'll be able to get back up and feel the strength and control returning followed by the confidence that you'll be ok.

I'd do the poly as soon as you can. If your wife has never had an affair before this, and you know without even having to ask that she's had a lot of opportunities, then that means a lot in my opinion.

Then you know what you're dealing with and you move forward. This not knowing and waiting also can kill a marriage. If she has been faithful up until this recent affair, then I would not be all that worried that she will have another affair in the next few months. My observation is that about six months AFTER the crisis is over and stabilized, then she might if she is apt.

Serenity prayer. I'm usually about the opposite of that attitude, but when it comes to the affair, I think less is more from you. Let her do the work. If you do it yourself, you will resent it even more. You can't make her do it, she has to want it on her own. Let her do that for you, and you will feel she is "all in." You may have to let her know what you want, but once you throw it out there, let her take it and run with it. That's what she can do to move this forward.

For example, throw it out there to her about your trips, what is she going to do to make you feel she won't be cheating again, not just other man, but other guys? When I had a problem due to the affair, I made it my wife's problem. It was her fault we were in that situation. I wasn't perfect, but I was all into her and our family. She caused this problem, she'd have to put in her full effort to fix it. I'd tell her we have been married almost 20 years and I always trusted you, and you betrayed me. You BETRAYED me. I DON'T TRUST YOU anymore AT ALL. What are you going to do about this? What are you going to earn back my trust? Because this situation sucks and I'm getting older and if you think I'm going to live like this the rest of my life, you are mistaken. I WILL LEAVE YOU if you don't figure this shit out.

Many times over the first months to a year I would say to my wife, whatever you're doing, I don't think it's enough, you better step it up.

My wife was not extremely flirty, never had been. She had F-book, I didn't, but I had all her passwords and I would go on her Fbook once in a while. Same with her email or texting, I always had access, it's just that I never paid all that much attention to it. I trusted her completely. When I was only a day or two into it after finding out and confronting the affair, I went through her accounts, Fbook in particular.

My wife always has been a social butterfly. She stays in touch with a woman she shared a 15-minute cab ride with in 1985. So I would see she had about 400 friends, but I didn't think much of it. This was the first time I really scrutinized it. Other man was on there, of course. So were about 300 "friends" I never heard of, many of them male. A lot of "likes" for anything from these guys.

First off, other man has to be blocked. Next, I told her I'd be more comfortable if she only had "friends" with people I personally know and approve of in real life. She told me which, and I told her. The male "friends" I told her mostly she had no problems with, but some she said "oh this is the husband of the woman I shared the cab with in 1985, if I unfriend him, his wife is going to ask why, and what should I say?" And I told her, why don't you do something new for you, there is this thing that you maybe never heard before, it is called "telling the truth." Some people have been doing this for years already. Why don't you try it? If your girlfriend asks why you unfriended her husband, why don't you just tell her the truth, that you've been cheating, your husband found out, and now he doesn't trust you, and he wants you to unfriend anyone he doesn't know and approve of in real life? I told my wife I didn't really care what she told her friends, but she shouldn't blame me, because it's not my fault you cheated and I feel what I feel, you can either help me through this or you can not. Your call.

Timetoact, I have been a little tough on your cheater, but you have read a few of the threads here, aren't other spouses' cheaters almost always seem more despicable than your own? We are only posting the negative parts about our cheaters.

This initial few weeks after finding out and confronting is the worst. The rollercoaster goes down the deepest and steepest. It seems like a one-way ride to hell. Then you stabilize and it still sucks, but you get used to the idea that your wife is who she is, she's not who you thought she was. That's when I wondered a lot about "you used to hate cheaters, WTF?" Then it gets a little better, you get used to it, and you reach the "acceptance" phase. You don't get to reach that level until you finish your initial requests are taken care of. That's why I say do the poly now if you can, you can't move forward without it and your current situation is about as bad as it will get. I didn't go on the internet until after about six months, so I did what I thought was best. I expected things to be done quickly and, if not, I really was ready to go, though I didn't tell her. Maybe she could sense it, but if I asked for something, she did it pretty quick, usually immediately on the spot, even if she didn't like it.

My advice in summary is to let her do the work and get it done quick, then you can move on to the next less crappy phase, and it is truly beyond your control, you can ask, but she has to do it.

WK55

I'd do the poly as soon as you can. If your wife has never had an affair before this, and you know without even having to ask that she's had a lot of opportunities, then that means a lot in my opinion.

I agree. She wants it done. I told her to start looking into it. I also agree I am going to see what initiative she takes. THIS IS CRAZY!!! This woman has had more opportunity to cheat without any chance of getting caught than 90% or more of WW. She has gone on numerous girls trips, girls night outs, and while I would NOT consider her a grade A cock teaser, she is certainly no wall flower as far as the flirtiness is concerned. If that test comes back as no other affairs, I am going to have to believe that this was a one OM thing, dig more into why, but get out of this crazy mindset that I now have to suspect every time she is out of my sight.

If I think there is any chance she is going to go off next week and bang someone I need to file like yesterday. Right now, I do not think that is a remote possibility. i guess the test will answer that one.

I do not know what the "acceptance" phase is. If it is that I accept or believe that she did this because she had the opportunity to, did not think she would get caught, liked the excitement, then I guess I am approaching that phase. If she is a serial cheater, or tells me she is in love with another man, I go to divorce phase.

What is tough to figure out is so I let her do the work. Assuming the poly comes out clean ( yes I am at this time assuming that), do I then expect her to curtail all of the social activities that she has done our entire marriage???? She is not stupid. She has already on her own cancelled everything she had planned with the "girls" for the next few months.

I am rambling again. Sorry.

JDUFF

I did get the crap I have heard of that she would be OK if I had a RA if it made me feel better

Yup. That's one of the typical "rugsweep" moves by a WS. She still doesn't really get it. Not yet.

I agree. That bull shit statement came out right at the beginning and has not been repeated.

You know. I do not think she is wanting to rug sweep. In our discussions, she has admitted that she was the aggressor, at least after the first time. The OM actually was nervous a couple of times. Not nervous enough to keep his zipper up, but she never tried to portray him as some kind of predator who she was desparately trying to drive away.

She has answered every question, some in excruciating detail, so I am not sure she is thinking this is to be rugswept. I know Walloped had an amazing list of questions he asked and posted. i just have chosen not to do that, but i had many of the same questions, but not all since I never for a minute thought this was an affair identical to his wife's where she was every other day for months at some guys apartment.

JDuff, I agree I need to "treat myself well". To be honest, right now I need to make some attempt to have like Mind Blown told me a 'normal day". For me, I want to hold her again and see how it feels. So if she comes home tonight i think for a few hours I am going to take my wife back to me and hold off on the questions for a day or two. not sure how i will feel later, but that is how I feel right now.

Back to work. i guess this was just a vent.

THIS IS CRAZY!!! This woman has had more opportunity to cheat without any chance of getting caught than 90% or more of WW. She has gone on numerous girls trips, girls night outs, and while I would NOT consider her a grade A cock teaser, she is certainly no wall flower as far as the flirtiness is concerned. If that test comes back as no other affairs, I am going to have to believe that this was a one OM thing, dig more into why, but get out of this crazy mindset that I now have to suspect every time she is out of my sight.

TTA, I'm going to throw something out there. I may very well be wrong. So please tell me if I am.

Are you certain this was not more than just some excitement? I agree she had so many opportunities to cheat, but likely didn't. Yet when confronted, she a) lied about who it was - first it was a random guy from a bar - now it's a co-worker, and b) she wanted to continue and not give it up. That suggests a more emotional attachment than just some fun and excitement.

Again, your question, which is a good one, is "What's different this time around? Why this guy?"

You may want to consider her investment in this guy as a possible answer. Maybe a question for the poly?

Thoughts?