SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I got a rather lukewarm promise that she would not have send with him anymore

Consequences, IMO there must be consequences if she broke NC again, why? Because if you tell her that next time she contacts OM you will kick her out, she does, and you just don’t do a thing she will “believe” that she can do whatever she wants because you won’t do a thing but talk.

I am wondering why she can just get vacations until OM or her are out the company. Maybe she can’t, but if she does, she must scarify her holydays to try to fix her marriage, don’t you think?

Good luck

oh yes, don't forget you and your wife might want to get tested for STDs.

Yes it would be to easy for the two of them to hook up on that trip next week.

a PI or go with her on this trip.

also a VAR in her car or where ever she might call and talk to him before the trip.

this will tell you if she is telling some truth

[This message edited by convert at 12:38 PM, January 21st (Thursday)]

I AM going to hire a PI, have already made some calls and hope to have that one locked up by this evening or tomorrow morning

Timetoact

You already know that she's having sex with the OM. The reason to spend money on a PI is if you plan to R if she’s telling the truth and to D if the PI finds out she’s not. If you’re already set on R or on D no matter what the PI finds you might as well save your money.

If you're going to R no matter what then the only reason for a PI is to get proof for the OMs wife.

If you're going to D no matter what then the only reason for a PI is if you live in an state where affairs can be a cause to divorce.

I AM considering flying there myself to be at close location, but not sure if I can work that one out.

Timetoact

It’s generally better for them NOT to know what you know. That way you can test how truthful she is. If you catch them red handed then they will know what you know and construct their story accordingly. You can’t test them. It’s better for them to think that they got away with it. Then with information you get from the PI you can ask questions and see how truthful she is.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 2:14 PM, January 21st (Thursday)]

if she goes on the trip it's to

1. make love to her boyfriend

2. show she's not really interested in reconciliation

translation: if she goes on the trip she'll have been served divorce papers

the kicker: she needs to figure this out on her own

If you have her agree to enable GPS tracking on her phone, which would be a condition of R anyway, it will make the PI's job easier. If she leaves her phone in the room in her room if she knows it is viewable that would be a tell. If I would have done so, I would have caught the vast majority if my wife's dalliances. If she has an iphone, get her apple ID and password so you can use find my iphone.

Great advice from CanoeVA as always. Read it and heed it... as he says - you are now in control - or as they say, your way or the highway...

Timetoact.... First of all... I feel your pain! I just discovered my wife having an affair on 12/26 and am still dealing with the aftermath...

A few thoughts...

1. DO NOT fly out there. You need to stay home and let the PI do his job. If you saw something it might lead to confrontation. In your (our) agitated state.... That would be VERY easy to do! I can't tell you what I would do if I met the bastard my wife was fucking!

2. DEFINTELY hire the PI!!! If you go for divorce based on adultery you will need corroborative 3rd party evidence. Her admission alone (at least in my home state) is not sufficient grounds for adultery. 3rd party evidence is needed... Even if it is circumstantial... Like pictures of them drinking at the bar!

3. Chill... Know the PI has this. Have a friend or brother come over to stay with you while she is gone. Hopefully you have someone who will allow you to lean on them and listen to you go berserk... Then calm you down. This was invaluable for me having a buddy over. He listened to me rant but never had a "Fuck that bitch!" attitude. He stayed middle of the road and gave me great advice.

4. Post here as often as possible. I didn't and don't always agree with who posts in my thread... But I truly appreciate their good intentions and even if I disagree... It gives me something to think about!

5. Give her enough rope to hang herself! Give her plenty of stiff hemp and allow her to step right up on the box. What she does after that is up to her!

Your plan is solid. Stick to it.

The affair does not kill the marriage, the lies afterwards does. All the sex she had won't hurt as much if she continues with you still knowing. Keep in mind it is beyond your control. She can be doing it with OM right now. You can polygraph her later to see ifbdhe did. I think it is important for her to know polygraph will be coming, this may be enough to keep her honest going forward. Let her know the last contact and sex will be part of the poly.

Timetoact - sorry you are here, man. You just got served up a big old shit sandwich you didn't order. I know what that feels like.

First, and most importantly, I want to say how well you are handling this. You might not feel that way and probably you are making a few mistakes, but realize that you are going through an experience the vast majority of us colossally fuck up!! The performance bar is extraordinarily low and you have more than vaulted over it.

In terms of advice, I don't have much that has not already been offered but I thought I would point out something somewhat rare about your wife's cheating. That is, her request to continue her affair with this person and statement that she would continue to sleep with him regardless of your (obvious) objection. My goal is NOT to compare the depth of betrayal or say that your chances for R are less than others. In fact, my observation is that the depth of betrayal is surprisingly uncorrelated with chances for R.

Instead, I want to show how the relative rareness of her reaction means you are dealing with someone who is deep, deep in the fog and is operating from a level of delusion that must be reckoned with. Because what is highly correlated with chances for R is remorse. In comparison, there are many variants of her request/position that are much more common and, while still delusional, show some evidence that they understand the wrongness of their actions:

- claiming that they can remain platonic friends with AP

- asking the BS for an open marriage

- openly lamenting that they cannot have one spouse for marriage and one spouse for fun

- claiming they care nothing for the AP but then taking things underground

Your wife took things "to 11" with her blatant and brazen refusal to stop seeing him and her stated goal of continuing sex with him. While I've only been on these boards for a year, I've read hundreds of stories and I can say that I've only seen a handful of stories where the WS is this unrepentant.

So what does this all mean? I think the implication is that you need to step up your game in shaking her out of the fog. Many on this board recommend filing for D in nearly all circumstances. I don't. In the right circumstance and with a remorseful spouse, this step and other measures like a 180, separation, and extensive exposure may not be necessary. But your WW is desperately far from remorseful. Her statements and actions post D-day are disgusting and patently unacceptable. Press her with these actions and more until she is either disabused of her current thinking or you discover she is a lost cause.

Strength to you.

ETA: grammar.

[This message edited by chifrudo at 3:55 PM, January 21st (Thursday)]

Well very long day today. A lot more information. I am sure I will miss a lot but I thought since so many folks have tried to help me I would update what is happening.

I do want to clear up one thing. Maybe I wrote it wrong or gave the wrong impression . My wife did not tell me she absolutely refused to stop fucking this OM. Yes she said she would like to continue. Just wanted to clear that one up.

My mind is scrambled, but let me begin

The OM

I got it all. OM is 35 year old hot shot. Got promoted a year ago and is considered to be on what us corporate types would call a "fast track". I got his name and phone number and I can find him and his wife, who is a SAHM with three kids much younger than mine. How I let her know is still to be decided, but I did not say a word about doing that to my wife. I am not a bad looking guy, but I will say he is a "pretty boy". Not that it matters.

Timeline

Verbally pushed her on that one. Not done yet with details. I guess I know the basics. Started when they went to a trade show together. Those of you who are familiar with these things they just stand around in their booth all day and wait for clients and customers to come around. Boring as shit with a lot of time for flirting or non business conversation. They hardly knew each other before this extended trip.

Pretty much instant physical attraction, lots of booze at dinner, all dressed up to kill, hotel room as close as elevator, and you all know the rest. After that, pretty small amount of contact, about six or seven hook ups, one where we live (not in my house)

SEX

I have read enough here and relationships in general to know that even though our sex life is good and frequent and that there is nothing I can think of that a man and woman could do that we have not done, I know no married spouse can complete with the excitement on a "new" and "illicit" partner. No excuse. I did not ask for sexual details. What purpose. ???

I'm not lacking in any aspect of physical or performance and what woman would repeatedly do this and limit activities or acts. No doubt they were "hot" for each other physically. I see women all the time that I could bang for weeks without coming up for air, but NOT while married.

EMOTIONS

None apparent for him. She liked the sex. I give her credit for being honest. When I rfead some of these threads where some WW is banging a guy for years and tells her BH that she did not enjoy the sex, I just shake my head. This has not been a torrid LOVE affair at lunch every day for six months.

I am sure I missed a lot but that is a general summary. I know I have a lot more to do.

So the questions are

(1) do I ,as one poster told me, give her enough rope to hang herself and not try to stop the trip next week, or do I tell her she needs to find a way not to go. She can attended a different session that he will not be at and IS willing to do that. Then I know nothing though.

(2) now I have to figure out how to get to wife. I do have a few texts and emails that are pretty disgusting but they did NOT do a lot of texting or sexting. How do I get this woman to believe that I am not a lunatic.

(3) quitting the job right now is not happening. My attorney told me that if I have any intention of possibly divorcing that that would be stupid, as would trying to get her fired . If we R, she can find another job. She has recruiters calling her all the time, but it does take some time and that certainly is not happening in a week or two.

So where does that leave me. My gut believes that these two have no intention of eloping, and I believe ( not sure) he pretty much told her last night that his career is more important than her. Quite frankly ,she feels the same I do believe. So my gut tells me this is not hopeless.

Before you guys get the pitchforks out, believe me I am not taking every word as gospel. I may not sound like it, but I am not stupid.

One bit of good news, or I think it is. It appears she told three girlfriends and two of them basically kicked her ass and told her they refused to come to the house and sit in front of me knowing what was going on. I was kind of wondering why I had not seen them. I am sure she has spoken to them last night or today.

Sorry for the length of this. I hope some of it makes sense.

She;s in spare bedroom sleeping. I hope I sleep better tonight.

Thanks for listening.

My opinions on your questions.

1. If on any level you are entertaining the idea of salvaging your M, she can't go on that trip. If she felt the same way, she would make sure she doesn't go on that trip. You do not sound like the type who will accept a "natural death" for this A, and as a result you must do whatever it takes to kill the A right now. Heck, even if you do divorce, you don't come off as the type to accept continued disrespect.

2. Give the POS's wife what you have. Chances are she has had suspicions in the past. All she lacked was tangible evidence.

3. About her job. That's a tough one, but I would not make a move on that issue just yet. If you do decide to try R though, then she or POS must leave the job to give you some peace of mind. Spending your days worrying about what they could be up to will drive you crazy. You know your WW is more than capable of lying to your face, so her telling you everyday that she did not interact with POS is meaningless. There can be no true R if she keeps constantly seeing this guy. If you decide to D though, then you probably wouldn't care where she works or who she sees.

You seem to believe that your WW has no emotional "connection" to OM. I think her actions say otherwise. She seemed to go out of her way to protect POS regardless of your pain. Didn't she lie about where she knew him from? If it really was just about the sex, she would have thrown him under the bus right away to protect herself. I think your WW is lying to you about this issue, and that is a huge issue.

Good luck OP and stay strong. You seem to be a step ahead of the game so to speak. Keep it up.

No pitchfork from me tonight. LOL You sound like you have your head in the game here. Your doing very well with this situation. My only advice would be don't be so quick to believe her words yet. Believe what you can verify, and watch her actions. Actions always tell the truth. If her actions start matching her words, then you do have a shot at R. She appears to be coming out of the fog, she needs IC now to figure out why she had poor boundaries and let this guy in to her marriage, and fix them.

(1) do I ,as one poster told me, give her enough rope to hang herself and not try to stop the trip next week, or do I tell her she needs to find a way not to go. She can attended a different session that he will not be at and IS willing to do that. Then I know nothing though.

You say if she doesn't go to the conference where he is, you will know nothing. It's true, you won't know if she could resist the temptation. But think of this. Your wife has been vulnerable to him before, do you want to offer her to him on a silver platter? It is never a good idea to allow affair partners access to each other, unsupervised, this soon after discovery. This is an opportunity for your wife to show you actions, that match her words. Ask her to find a way not to go, or go to a later one as you mentioned. And she should start the process of looking for another job also. That being said! If she insists she has to go the meeting he is at, the PI might be a good idea.

(2) now I have to figure out how to get to wife. I do have a few texts and emails that are pretty disgusting but they did NOT do a lot of texting or sexting. How do I get this woman to believe that I am not a lunatic.

If you have to, you go with what you have. Or, if your wife comes out of the fog, and becomes 100% into R with you, have her do it. I'm sure your wife could tell her enough that she would know it's not made up, plus the filthy texts. Or, if you feel more comfortable not letting your wife know you are contacting OBS, you could ask your wife to write a detailed timeline of the affair, with specifics. You don't have to read it yourself, if you don't want all the gory details. Then send the timeline and your text evidence to her. These options may be good or not, I'm just offer options. Once again, you seem to be handling this well, considering how tough this shit is. Stay strong brother, you will get threw this.

[This message edited by longforgotten at 9:02 PM, January 21st (Thursday)]

Jigga/Longforgotten

Thanks for your advice. I am not sure about what this "fog" is, but you are right. I am not the type to let this affair die a "natural" death, if that means letting it go on unimpeded and hope it stops. That is not an option.

I CAN stop this trip. Let me rephrase that. She has told me she can and will reschedule, and I can verify if he tries to do the same by just calling the hotel next week and asking for him.

I know I can't believe anything I cannot verify, but I honestly do not think she would tell me she was not going and think I was so stupid as to not ask her to verify he is not still going next week as planned. But I will NOT be able to keep them from ever being at same meeting forever. Right now I believe you are correct, and that I will tell her I do not want her to go, mostly because it gives me more time to think, plan, and digest this shit before as you say, "she gets delivered" again.

Just one or ther thing about the job, I think some responding may be thinking they see each other every day at work. Someone asked how I could take her going to work with him every day. That is not the case. OM lives a three hour plane ride from where most of the meeting are and that is almost two hours from us on plane.

I read Walloped thread. I think he called OM wife with his wife on phone. That sounds to me like most effective way. Probably a real good way to see how committed my wife is to get through this. Got to think more on this one.

As far as having my head in game, thanks for the support. I need it. This is not game I wanted to be good at.

I keep hearing IC. Haven't gotten to the point of caring too much about WHY yet. I also think if I want to stay married, MC would be better. I want to know what the hell is being said, not have her interpretation parroted back to me and I am clueless as to what was presented to IC. That is down the road.

Right now, my priorities are

(1) do what I can do to stop this affair,. I can't stop it but I sure can make sure she has stopped it or has not.

(2) get to OM wife

(3) decide on R or D.

One step at a time.. Putting this trip off does buy me more time to get my shit together.

Timetoact

(1) do I ,as one poster told me, give her enough rope to hang herself and not try to stop the trip next week, or do I tell her she needs to find a way not to go. She can attended a different session that he will not be at and IS willing to do that. Then I know nothing though.

From my standpoint "giving them enough rope to hang themselves" is basically securing justification for leaving them. Obviously she is not thinking straight right now or she would never have told you that if she was just in it for the sex, it's OK. And telling you she was meeting him again??? One universal thought about infidelity is the first thing to do is stop the affair. Your best avenue in doing this is to tell the other wife. You're going to tell her anyhow and your wife needs the shock that's involved. If you plan to consider R, this would kill it. Otherwise you wait until she cheats again and divorce her.

(2) now I have to figure out how to get to wife. I do have a few texts and emails that are pretty disgusting but they did NOT do a lot of texting or sexting. How do I get this woman to believe that I am not a lunatic.

I don't know why she thinks your a lunatic. Because you don't agree with her that it's just sex? Tell her it a deal breaker and your calling a lawyer to make an appointment to prepare divorce papers. Employ the 180. Tell her it's just your opinion, but it's the one that counts.

(3) quitting the job right now is not happening.

I agree. Good call.

Getting in touch with the wife will kill the affair. If that doesn't work then she quits within the next 24 hours. If that doesn't work then you'll be out of the open marriage because you'll have served divorce papers

I disagree with the "just sex."

Don't let her rope herself. Because she will. If you want to save the marriage, ask her to back out of this trip.

She has been having sex with this guy, it supposedly started on a business trip, and she is only stopping because you found out. Her outlook seems to be that what you don't know won't hurt you.

I don't sense she "loves" you. Like if you told her the affair was OK, she would continue.

Timetoact -

Yes, I called POS' wife. Because I was doing research on him. And I had a gut feeling based on comments made by members here at SI that he might be lying to my wife. A few people simply asked me how do I know certain things? I answered that my wife told me so. What if she was lying? What if he was lying to her? Hence my research and my hunch and theirs paid off.

Point is, listen to the good folks here. They know from whence they speak. Even their questions can focus you in a direction you may not have thought to consider. I was lost and am very fortunate my brother directed me to this excellent community.

You seem like an action oriented guy. My problem dealing with this mess was that there were so many things to think about, things I never thought I'd ever even have to consider, and on top of that my mind was reeling from shock, pain, what have you, that I couldn't keep track of it all.

So I made lists. I printed out posts. Copied and pasted a lot of info and then went through them to determine which applied to me / which I'd follow through on, and then I did just that.

We're throwing a good deal of info at you and it may get to be too much. Do what works for you. But know that you've been doing very well thus far. A hell of a lot better IMO than I did.

One last point on IC vs MC. If you choose to attempt reconciliation, do NOT go for MC until your wife has gone to IC for a while. The infidelity must stop, obviously, but she needs to work on herself and address a number of key issues prior to working on your marriage. Basically, you own a share of whatever problems there were in your marriage. She owns 100% of her affair. Marital issues never justify infidelity. There is no point, and it is actually counterproductive, to go to MC before you know if you even have a safe partner, or at least someone working on becoming a safe partner, to work with.

Anyway, again, it may not seem like it to you, but you are doing as well as anyone given your situation.

Keep on keeping on.

The "FOG", is fairy tale land. Every cheater lives there. This "FOG" is the lies she tells herself about the other man, and also about you, to justify cheating in her head. She had to build an emotional bond, and a fairy tale life with this man to have sex with him. It was also this bond with him, and her fog, her fairy tale, where she was the Princess and he was Prince Charming and it was just room service and laughing and sex and talking about how they understand each other. That is what allowed her to defend him, by not wanting you to have his name, and also still having a desire to continue sleeping with him. None of the affair is based in reality. The fact that they don't work together everyday, is one thing that really went in your favor. If he had access to her every day she would be 1000 times more attached to him. I really don't think she's ready for MC yet. The IC for her is to figure out what went wrong in her. For some reason, that little alarm that goes off in your head when you realize your crossing the line on your marriage, didn't go off in her head. She needs IC to figure out where she went wrong, and how to fix that so it doesn't happen again. After she has been in IC for a little while and you see she is working hard to R with you, then you start MC. IC is to fix her issues, MC is to fix your marriages issues. As for the job. If it can be arranged that she no longer ever has to be around her AP, then there is no reason to quit.

From what you've said, it sounds like your preference would be to attempt to save the marriage. If that is the case, you need to ask for the following from your wife:

NC (no contact). She will craft a communication (i.e. letter or email) that clearly indicates that she has made a massive mistake, that she is going to try to save her marriage and that any and all communication between them must end. Forever. You get to see it and agree to it before it is sent. Then she will adhere to that and she will be proactive in making sure that NC will hold forever. If the OM tries to contact her, she will inform you immediately. As far as the upcoming trip goes, she will reschedule. In terms of her career, she will start looking for another job.

Honesty. Lies and half-truths will kill efforts to reconcile. She will answer all your questions honestly. She will not hold back information. She will answer any time and as many times as you care to ask. If needed, you can ask for a polygraph test.

Transparency. You get access to everything -- her email, phone, computer, social media, etc. There are no hidden accounts allowed. Deleting information is not allowed.

IC (individual counseling). She goes to sort out what her character gap is that led her to believe that cheating was OK.

I'd also recommend the book "Helping Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda MacDonald for both of you.

I keep hearing IC. Haven't gotten to the point of caring too much about WHY yet. I also think if I want to stay married, MC would be better.

You aren't at a point yet where the "Why?" matters. However, if your wife is making moves towards reconciliation, it will become vital. If she doesn't dig deep and understand her "Why?", she is open to repeating this behavior again.

Typically, both partners end up in IC first. You have a major trauma to start healing from. She needs to sort out how she ever came to the point where cheating was ok with her. She is broken and you are shattered. The IC work is to get both of you to a healthier point so that MC has a foundation on which to build.

Keep pressing forward!

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 10:32 PM, January 21st (Thursday)]

One way to verify that NC is in force is to tell the OBS without informing your WW that you are doing that. If she then finds out that you contacted the OBS, you know for sure that she has violated the NC agreement.