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There is another thing you need to consider in my opinion. Is this the life you want where you have to tell your wife what you expect from her and then follow up with her on your relationship status on a regular basis? Do you want to be a cop/detective/psychologist for the rest of your life?

What if you divorced her and

1. concentrated on yourself to bring yourself up to what you aspire to be

2. worked on your family business to build it up and make your own mark

3. work on finding a woman that you can trust and explain what your minimum requirements are for relationship and start a FRESH untainted relationship. Imagine you can even have a prenup right from the start so if something like this happens, then you have a way out. Yes I get it you love your wife and don't want to cut her out of your life but I have tell you ( I am 20 yrs older than you) if I had a choice to start over knowing what I know now with no kids. I would simply divorce and chill. There is nothing worth more than having a peace of mind. You will NEVER NEVER have a peace of mind as long as you are with your wife. Good luck.

My wife seemed extremely upset with herself after the kiss. It's why I let it slide.

letting it slide is a common mistake.

Now there are at least two times you know of and your wife has to know there is no letting it slide this time.

She needs to figure out her problems today, if she wants to.

The next time this happens she will lose her job and get divorced.

I still get the feeling she does not get the huge magnitude of the wrong she has done, or she doesn't get that she has a real problem.

How have things gone with you now that your wife is back home?

How you doing Desertmirage

Hey all! Ww came back this afternoon. We had a nice day catching up and then got into things this evening. I told her I expected a list of things she is planing on doing to work on herself and she presented me a with a list of things that she made while on the plane (I hadn't mentioned to her that I wanted this prior to our conversation tonight). She had on there that she was going to find an IC, start doing not just friends exercises, start figuring out ways to love herself and not need other peoples admiration to feel goo about herself. Great first steps and I'm thrilled she seems to be starting to take initiative!

Sorry, replying on mobile is brutal... It covers up the sumbit button if I type too long...

Anyways, she was all over me all day long. Holding hands, hugging, kissing, looping her arm through mine on our daily walk, etc. She kept telling me how much she loves me and how much she wishes she could take it all back and what can she do to try to get back what we had. I told her I needed complete honesty from her and for her to work on the things she listed and keep working on them. I needed to see action. She cried a lot and kept having thoughts of me telling her I was done when she came back and how terrible and sad that made her. She told me she completely understands if I want to end things. I really think we are starting to get somewhere if I decide to R.

So she has had,multiple affairs and is rewarded with a girls trip.

You need to focus on you and get yourself in order

So she has had,multiple affairs and is rewarded with a girls trip.

You need to focus on you and get yourself in order.

Agree with the above. Here's your WW's pattern:

Step 1: She cheats

Step 2: She gets extremely upset with herself, love-bombs you (hug, kiss, loop hands, cry), prepare the obligatory "list of promised changes"

Step 3: You're "thrilled", happily reconcile, relieved that you don't have to face the scary prospect of D.

Rinse-and-repeat.

Unless YOU are convinced that YOU are the prize, not her, the situation will not change, and unfortunately, we'll be seeing you again a few years from now, or maybe a few months from now, with a new sob story.

The only way to make yourself the prize is to do stuff that you've always wanted to do but resisted because of the "nice guy" syndrome. Wanted to go golfing/fishing/hiking/skiing every other weekend? Then do it. Don't ask her, just TELL her you're going to do it. Wished she cooked more often for you? TELL her you expect her to cook more dinners for you. Want to try new things in bed? TELL her you want to try those positions and she needs to comply. Feel like flying to Vegas for a weekend with your pals? Do it. Tell her if she doesn't like what you're doing, she is free to leave.

Final word: At 30, the last thing you should be "scared" of is going back to being single. The fact that you are scared of D indicates lack of confidence/self-esteem, so you may want to address that as a priority.

OK… So once I wrote this I guess it’s a mini-rant. So rant away…

The WW confesses to the affair on her own account. Despite her therapist suggesting she didn’t. She offers to move out because she doesn’t expect DM to want her after telling him about the affair.

The WW seeks IC and offers to do what is required to work on the marriage. Yes – I agree she’s reluctant on some parts but eventually she does what’s asked of her. She DID talk to HR and that’s been validated. She DID risk her job and the consequences of that are not in yet.

There seems to be good communications between WW and DM. There seems to be a willingness for transparency and openness.

WW willingly (in fact – initiates) MC.

The girls-trip? Well… DS did not demand she skip it and IMHO the time apart was good for them.

We tell DS that he has to make a list of demands. When it turns out WW already made that list then it’s a negative?

Multiple affairs? Don’t see them actually… I do know of one physical affair and of a couple of incidents that one could theoretically quantify as affairs. Just like you could legally define driving 66 on a 65 road as speeding. Yes – kissing other men is wrong, and should have been a great big red flag and I am not denying the pain and hurt such incidents cause. Yes – they are infidelity but I would stop short of calling these events full-blown affairs.

WW drinking behavior has been identified as an issue. DS hasn’t been clear on what they have done about it (or more accurately what WW has done about it) but it’s been identified.

Heck… even if we call each and every incident an affair… So what? We have respected members here on SI – both wayward and betrayed spouses – that have dealt with multiple affairs and reconciled. Heck… even our founders - our hosts here on SI – are a couple reconciled from multiple affairs. IMHO the quantity might make the mountain that bit harder, but still climbable IF BOTH PARTIES WANT TO MAKE THAT JOURNEY AND CAN DO SO TOGETHER.

I guess this rant is due to the way many posters simply assume that each and every wayward spouse is a lost cause and the ONLY correct action is to get revenge, cause pain and then run out of the marriage as fast as you can – preferably with all the assets, kids and all that. This site is called Surviving Infidelity; it’s not called divorce ASAP if cheated on nor Save your marriage at all cost nor Learn how to live with infidelity. The beauty of this site is that is allows all solutions as long as you survive infidelity. Those solutions include BOTH reconciliation and separation.

Oh… and final part of rant…

Desert – Your last sentence:

I really think we are starting to get somewhere if I decide to R.

So… you haven ‘t decided if you want to reconcile? WHY THE F@CK MAKE YOUR WIFE TALK TO HR? WHY THE F@CK SUBJECT YOURSELF TO THIS CONSTANT PAIN?

You are PERFECTLY entitled to decide to divorce. It’s TOTALLY your call. Just like you are entitled to decide to try reconciliation. What you should NEVER do IMHO is decide to do nothing. All along I thought you wanted to reconcile and therefore were doing the work required to reconcile. That isn’t the same as being reconciled.

It’s sort of like having a car stuck in some mud. You can want to get it out of the mud, you can decide to get it out of the mud. You can get out and put A LOT of effort in getting it out of the mud. Maybe you can – maybe you can’t. But it won’t be clear until you put in the effort. Your last comment… it makes it sound like you went through the trouble of getting a tow-rope and found a shovel but couldn’t be bothered trying to use either.

I suggest you DECIDE to reconcile or you DECIDE to divorce. Just like you would DECIDE to dig that car out. Now – If after reasonable effort you decide your efforts aren’t getting the car out of the mud… THEN the sensible thing to do is to find another ride. But PLEASE don’t stand there beside the car doing nothing and just wishing or hoping it will get out by itself.

Rant over…

I agree that you both have to be clear on what’s at stake. I can understand your fear of being alone, but that has to be heavily outweighed by your fear of being a cuckold.

Sorry, we spoke about her drinking as well and talked about that since she seems to be incapable of controlling herself while drunk, she can't get drunk anymore. She agreed.

I think I am doing the correct things for R atm. I meant that if I stop seeing her doing what I think she needs to, maybe it ends in D. I also don't trust her at all at the moment and my thoughts have been mostly about how she showed complete disregard for me and our marriage. I would like to R, but if I cant get over these thoughts idk if I can. I just dont know.

I agree with Bigger here...

I am usually the first one in advising quick, decisive and forceful action from the BS, including obtaining legal advice and filing for divorce WHEN THE WS SHOWS NO REMORSE.

I think DM is doing quite well, proceeding with HIS plan on HIS timeline with what appears to be a remorseful WW.

Cautious optimism, DM. Keep your eyes open and keep control. It is very tempting to get back to "normal" too quickly in these situations. Make sure she KEEPS doing the REAL work.

I'm pulling for you here.

i think you and your wife are making progress.

I also agree with Bigger on a few of his points. One point in particular, I think you need to make a decision for yourself as to which direction you are trying to go. Sadly, if a BS is going to reconcile, they need to do some work themselves. Since the relationship has now changed because of adultery, the BS has to deal with the fact that their spouse cheated. So if they want to save their marriage, I think the BS needs to eventually realize that the marriage has changed. There can be no magical thinking of "I want the innocent marriage I had before." So some introspection is definitely required. And that's work. It's work to get over the pain and humiliation. You can't get over it passively. A lot of people need IC.

In any event, if you want to reconcile, you have to make the decision that reconciliation is what you want. And then work for it. Reconciliation may not ultimately happen. Your WW may not really do the work she needs to do. She may fall back into bad habits. She may want to go out drinking with her work friends, men included, etc. And, you may eventually realize that you can't get over the betrayal. At which point you divorce. But if you *want* to reconcile, you need to make the conscious decision to *try* to reconcile.

Good luck friend. Whatever happens, you'll be ok.

[This message edited by mike7 at 7:44 AM, November 29th (Tuesday)]

I guess this rant is due to the way many posters simply assume that each and every wayward spouse is a lost cause and the ONLY correct action is to get revenge, cause pain and then run out of the marriage as fast as you can – preferably with all the assets, kids and all that. This site is called Surviving Infidelity; it’s not called divorce ASAP if cheated on nor Save your marriage at all cost nor Learn how to live with infidelity. The beauty of this site is that is allows all solutions as long as you survive infidelity. Those solutions include BOTH reconciliation and separation.

This may need to be tagged at the top of every forum in SI. More than a few seem to pull for their favored choice in every scenario be it D or R. And in this thread, we should only be getting Desertmirage out of infidelity and into a place where he can make the best decision for him, instead of projecting their own choices on him.

In that sense, DM - I think you need a bunch of days with ACTION from your WS in a row and not merely words. Her list is nice, now you need to see and feel the work she is willing to do to make you feel safe. The boundary issue is huge - she appears to need validation beyond what you offer. Find out why and what she needs to do in IC to not need attention from other dudes to 'feel' better in the moment.

Ultimately, if she starts showing some genuine remorse along with showing you her changes everyday, you have someone to work with, whatever you decide.

I don’t believe in in-betweens or middle-ground. I know the popular and common advice of not doing anything decisive for six months’ post d-day but I don’t think that should be an open ticket to inaction. Instead I think we should focus on maybe not doing anything that burns bridges behind us and limits our options. Your WW affair gave you two less-than-crappy options: Divorce or reconcile. By doing neither you are choosing the third option – the ultimate crappy option: Remaining in infidelity.

Now – Your wife might be hightailing it into infidelity or out of infidelity, but by you not deciding what you want and then trying to aim for that destination… You are remaining in infidelity.

To stick to the car analogy:

Just like deciding to get that car unstuck won’t get it unstuck then deciding to reconcile won’t make you reconcile.

It takes WORK. Not only work, but work at the RIGHT PLACES.

Basically when you decide to reconcile you are deciding to TRY to reconcile. And just like that stuck car then ONLY relevant and appropriate tools and work will help you.

Standing there and wondering if it is stuck in the mud or not won’t help. Looking at the car, waiting for it to move, wishing it wasn’t stuck… none of those would get it out of the mud. Putting a lot of effort into waxing the car, changing the oil or trying to fit as much junk into the won’t get the car unstuck. Having the best rope and a great-big shovel but applying neither won’t get the car unstuck…

You need to get behind that car and push. You need to use the rope to pull. You need to dig with that shovel. And maybe you get the car out of there.

Or maybe it will remain stuck in the mud…

The tricky parts IMHO are:

Knowing when you are applying tools and methods that work and when you are doing something that doesn’t work. Focusing on what works and not dwelling on what doesn’t.

Realizing how much time you can spend getting unstuck before you need to get to your destination.

Realizing when even your best efforts aren’t getting that car out of the mud and being totally unafraid to leave it rather than miss your goal. THIS is the key factor and the one redbaron points out: You need to have YOUR cut-off point where you accept the car/marriage is stuck beyond rescue and YOU move on.

[This message edited by Bigger at 8:40 AM, November 29th (Tuesday)]

I think there is a need to strengthen you..There may be plenty of days of limbo ahead..Where you aren't sure what the hell to do..

Work on being able to support yourself without a marriage, financially, emotionally..Working on this, may take years...Counseling, a circle of trusted friends, classes to further your career or jumpstart it, strengthening family ties..

All of the above is easier said than done..

I am still at the strengthening myself step, and expect to be for the foreseeable future...

However, I do think you need to make immediate decisions to make your day to day living arrangements bearable...Do this whether or not you have achieved your goal of being into R or are physically separated from her..

Focus on yourself and your wellbeing in order to get to that point when you can feel strong enough to unravel the mess you are in..

Feeling strong has the better chance of motivating you to make the hard decisions you need to make to improve your life...Know that each little (or BIG) decision you make doesn't have to be written in stone..In the end, you have to do what works for you...

Thanks guys! Yeah, I told her I expect to see her working on stuff and we can do the exercises in our books and whatnot. I think I am super codependent so am reading a lot about that and trying to get away from that.

Redbaron's comment about doing my own things is probably correct to a certain extent. I need to branch out a bit on my own. We NEVER fought and I think a lot of it was from my "nice guy" and "codependency" issues. This could easily make for a boring relationship that is not healthy. Me just saying "yes ma'am" all the time isn't fun for anyone.

I am trying to do R. I want to make that clear. I am not completely sold on it at this point but we are doing the steps towards it and I am committed to trying. I listened to a podcast that was talking about at least trying R and if it doesn't work, at least you know. If you just D, you may always wonder and it could impact other relationships down the road. I agree and she seems to be doing what she's supposed to.

It does seem that she is understanding more of what she's done. She was inconsolable last night (prob partially jetlag) and kept beating herself up for being so dumb and selfish.

The getting stronger stuff, I completely agree with. I think by tackling "nice guy" and "codependency" that will really help me in the long run (with or without her). I think we are on the right track towards R, but we both have a bunch of work to do.

It does seem that she is understanding more of what she's done. She was inconsolable last night (prob partially jetlag) and kept beating herself up for being so dumb and selfish.

Or, the fog is lifting.

My wife has gone through this and is still going through this. She has moments where she talks about how she is a complete "piece of shit".

When in this position, I asked for advice on how to handle it... and the answer that I was given is this: let her feel her feelings. It's important that she feel awful. Do not comfort her.

Yeah I just kinda sat and listened to her last night. I told her she wasn't an inherently bad person but that she did a really terrible shitty thing and is still capable of repeating. She got it. It probably is the fog like you say. Getting AP fired makes it real that it's really over.

On a side note, no one has said anything to her yet and it doesn't seem like anyone is surprised by his firing. Speaks volumes...

It does seem that she is understanding more of what she's done. She was inconsolable last night (prob partially jetlag) and kept beating herself up for being so dumb and selfish.

Just remember: watch what she DOES, don't listen to what she SAYS.

Definitely. I'm glad she made a list but I told her I expected her to start doing the things on it quickly. They made sense to me though, so that's good.

[This message edited by desertmirage at 1:28 PM, November 29th (Tuesday)]