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Agh, totally with you Fenderguy. You know I look at WW sometimes and thingk I could do a lot worse but then......WHY? And the lying. To me, to her one. I cannot deal with that. But there is still this 'bond'. I can't explain it. Like you, I feel a tinge of guilt for doing what I am doing. But I feel like I am going that way.

By the way, consider an SG if you are coming from a strat / tele. If you are a 'physical' player they do end to bend at the neck joint. LP is awesome anyways. Funnily, I have many expensive guitars and my fave for gigs is a Kay LP copy. Bought from eBay for nothing. But it sounds like a beast and is so comfortable. Bit lighter than a proper LP. I have a Gold Top and a white custom 3 pickup but I prefer the Kay!

self-protection.

What is the definition of self-protection? Maannnyyyy a wayward justified their deception as what they needed to do in a crisis.

Possibly the difference between putting the welfare of your children first or just going and fucking someone because you felt a bit sad?

Many of those fuckers will have children as well. Fuckers.

I am playing devils advocate. It has been said to me over and over, here and in therapy: your deception is not putting your children first. That is a lie you are telling yourself, just like a wayward lies. You are putting yourself first. YOU are uncomfortable with divorce. Children want truly happy parents, not phonies.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:57 PM, July 22nd (Sunday)]

FenderGuy - for what it's worth

OwningIt may have a point, but I see things a bit differently.

Your WW blew up your life, and now expects it to all be normal. Since you have no interest in reconciling in a fake relationship, tactical tolerance is what you've chosen, so that you don't lose access to your children 50% of the time (at least), and have them become pawns to her working different angles to get you to toe the line as an alienated parent (if she rug-sweeps her actions in an affair, I can almost guarantee you parental alienation tactics are in her repertoire. )

I do not see anything bad about making this choice. But I would add a few truth darts at opportune times to perhaps lay the ground work for four years from now.

I am telling you what, I don't know what the fuck I want! Today, we had the best day as a family. All of us. The kind of day that makes you wonder why you would ever want anything else. FUUUUUUUCK this is hard! I absolutely do not know the fuck to do!

We are a good, happy family unit. She and I just don't connect as a couple anymore. You take the kids out of the equation, there's not much there. If we stay together for another 15 years, our kids will have moved out of the house, and we'll be one of those couples that doesn't know what to do with ourselves.

I am going to talk to her tonight, and lay it all out. You people are right, I cannot live another day like this. My emotions are getting the best of me right now, and are coming to a head. Tonight is the night that she and I get on the same fucking page, one way or another.

I think it is pretty obvious where the rugsweeping is

She just talked about the EA and how she was manipulated and humiliated by the AP in the end.

. Not one mention about what she did to her husband. Just about how the AP got the better of her and that her husband was there for her. Not one word about how she has owned her shit or changed. She is the victim. Since when is it the real victims job to make a WS change?

Once someone has treated you this way you owe them nothing.

She has the power to post here. Many would tell her the victim of an AP mindset is BS dig deeper. She knows she is rugsweeping and it is her job not the BS to get her shit together. He put everything on the table. She refused to meet it and rugswept. He got tired of the BS and hounding her. Honestly, an adult shouldn't need hounding. So, he is done. Her problem not his. She thinks everything is okay because he stopped being her father. Her problem. She is content to get out of her regret and never went to remorse. Her problem. IMO you aren't deceiving her. You just stopped being her IC, father, and police. If she had a pinch of remorse, she would know things weren't okay. She doesn't because she chose to stay self centered. That is her problem. You tried. She failed again.

Though,

I am going to talk to her tonight, and lay it all out. You people are right, I cannot live another day like this. My emotions are getting the best of me right now, and are coming to a head. Tonight is the night that she and I get on the same fucking page, one way or another.

Good to hear it. Two years is a long time to be roommates. It would be easy to give into the complacency that existed before the affairs, just to find her having another one because she really never got it or owned it to the point of remorse. In order to change she needs to face herself, though that still isn't your responsibility as some here seem to suggest. She knows she is shirking. Trust me. I did the same shit for months. You sir are in that lethal plain of flatness and it is normal.

I think you’re doing the right thing for both of you by talking to her tonight. Good luck.

You deserve to have the life you want. I hope your wife steps up! Keep us posted.

We had one of those days last week and it was great. It's hard to imagine any other life when you can see yourself being happy.

Good luck!!!

While hardest, my best days are my very honest days. Good luck, FenderGuy. I hope it goes well tonight. You are right--so very hard.

One reason I stayed together was for our adult child and now grandchild. It is fun being grandparents together and having our granddaughter see us as a pair. Attending family events and sharing life moments is harder when the parents are divorced esp. in close knit families. Ive watched this with my divorced brother's adult kids.

Our daughter knows about her father's cheating but she has always said she looked to me for how to handle it. If I'm in it for the long haul then so is she. She loves her father but what he did to us has changed her. He is no longer on a pedastal nor looked up to like before which makes us both sad.

But noone should stay with a really toxic person unless it is being done for BS and childrens' welfare financial or otherwise IMHO. This uncertainty or later divorce is a consequence that WS have to potentially face. I wouldn't feel guilty if you are leading them on some even because you are reacting to their broken vows.

[This message edited by whattheh at 7:12 PM, July 22nd (Sunday)]

I just don't get how he can be called wayward for protecting himself and having a long-term plan in place.

And I disagree that - assuming they aren't witnessing fights and animosity - "staying for the kids" is something harmful for them. I think quite the opposite. I'd rather have grown up with 2 civil parents who were pleasant to each other and enjoyed raising me than in a broken home, even if they weren't Romeo and Juliet every waking moment.

How did the talk go?

OwningItNow, I don't know how your situation relates to this one, so I can't say if that advice was right for you or not. You say it's working, so I'm guessing it was. But your situation isn't everyone's, right?

Telling the truth is usually best, but there are exceptions to every rule. Strategic plans designed to get out of marriage without being hurt is not selfish and it is not bad for your children.

I guess I am the female version of LawyerMan and FenderGuy. I know he's cheating, I know he's planning on leaving me, but I am still here and waiting it out. No kids involved, but to be honest, a lot of it is financial. Am I taking advantage of him? I guess so. But I'm not ready to give up the lifestyle we have. And if that's cold and calculating, oh well. He deserves it.

And if that's cold and calculating, oh well.

I don't know about that.

But I have been told too many times to count that it is some combination of codependent, in denial, martyrdom, minimizing, and selfish. And none of those are healthy.

When you live honestly, you are on the right path. Whatever reasons people give for living dishonestly with those they are closest to are merely justifications. This payback stuff? A justification. For a lot of WS, the A came about due to justifications and a sense of entitled payback. (Poor babies.)

People should do what they want, but those hurt by infidelity find a lot of ways to justify some crappy behavior post-dday. Pot meet kettle.

Let me be clear, my husband is not making it easy on me to D. I am struggling to be strong enough to do the right thing instead of the easy thing. So I understand all the justification that goes on. I do it, too.

And I disagree that - assuming they aren't witnessing fights and animosity - "staying for the kids" is something harmful for them. I think quite the opposite. I'd rather have grown up with 2 civil parents who were pleasant to each other and enjoyed raising me than in a broken home, even if they weren't Romeo and Juliet every waking moment.

See this is the thing we all have different opinions and situations.I felt much as SilverLinings55. My mom had A's and my parents fought like cats and dogs went to therapy blah blah blah, BUT I still wanted my parents to be together. They did eventually find their way back. Not the happiest M but I still wanted my parents to be together.

My WH and I no longer argue. We get along and we co-parent really well. We actually hold hands or hug when we go out together and do things together. Our M is no where close to what was pre-A's but it is a work in progress. There was a time when we couldn't be in the same room together without arguing.

I absolutely believe the False R was a dealbreaker. It lead to our later separation and we have since gotten back together. Kids seem to be the glue in a M. They helped me pause where I normally would just leave.

I really can identify with Lawyerman, OIN, and Fenderguy. I am another who stayed because of the kids. We are working at it and I can always change my mind and D. There are always options.

This is denial....SHe either refuses or cant self reflect....Is she NPD?

My Wh, always pushed down the truth...lied to everyone, mostly himself...because he couldn't have flaws...he couldn't deal with having issues...so they magically disappeared...

THe rest of us lived in reality...no magic for us...and we were left shaking our heads, wondering how could this be? Who thinks like this?

I’m glad to see that you are focusing on your endgame plan. I don’t think I would’ve been able to NOT email the friend the dirty details, I was pissed reading what your WW wrote. It sometimes does seem like a lot of WSs can sleep peacefully and look with hope towards the future like they just didn’t blow up their marriage/family😑. Stay focused on your plan to get your ducks in a row and surprise her with the D that makes her head spin