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Back to the original post, the thing I've wondered is whether there are WS's who, after the "dust settles" and they are back in a functional marriage, ever look back and have a twinge of wistful longing, or perhaps a butterfly of happy thrill, remembering a particularly sensual encounter in a hot tub, for example, or a funny instance of getting caught doing it in public. Something that, without context, would normally be a happy memory.

I'd be curious to know if there are any WS's who are (a) honest enough with themselves to acknowledge when they have these memories, and (b) is there any example of a WS sharing this with a BS? After all, if the rule is "100% naked transparency", then this would be something to be shared.

In all honesty, no I don't ever look back wistfully or with any fondness at my A. I can look back and see the thrill it brought me, and the dopamine rush our online encounters elicited, but none of the same thrill or rush or good feelings remain today. Nothing but shame now. Regret - yes, absolutely, and remorse now that I can see the impact it had on my H.

Right after dday? No. WH's head was so far up his ass he blameshifted, continued to lie and tried to carry on both relationships until he could figure out how to dump the AP. He is not one for confrontation of any kind.

After the fog lifted (it took about 3 weeks) and his head fell out of his ass, oh yeah. BIG TIME remorse and regret along with shame, embarrassment, disgust, you name it. He then started to see what his AP and the A really was: A big pile of bullshit and an escape from reality. I think he knew (he has told me this anyway) the A had a "shelf life" and had "run its course"

And like Hikingout and Zug have stated here, it was never about the AP. It was always about THEM and their selfishness. My WH told me the other night that he was just as selfish to her as he was to me, and she never got "the good man" part of him the entire time. How could she? The good man part didn't exist during the A. She accepted table scraps from broken train wreck.

GoldenR You missed my point. Doing something wrong to someone is doing something wrong to someone no matter who it is and what they did. People experience remorse for many things. Are WS some evil creatures for the rest of their lives that can't possibly reach remorse? No. I get that what we chose to do is at the top of the list in causing pain to someone else. Why are they any different than the teenager that got drunk and crashed their parents car into a tree or worse killed someone? If they can have remorse. So can WS for our choices. Otherwise, you are just saying in general no one can possibly achieve remorse for choosing to be selfish and hurting someone in all walks of life.

In hindsight, I do. It would have been a hell of a lot better than the years of lying that followed.

xhz700, I guess I was presuming a remorseful WS that was working honestly in R with their BS, because that was the OP’s situation. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum. In your case, unfortunately, no, your wife didn’t truly regret her A.

How can a BS know that your motivations to reconcile are any different than the motivations to cheat, or to cover up for the cheating?

If the WS does nothing except just cry or say the right things then you wouldn’t. And it’s all meaningless. I can only speak about my experience and what my BH has said, and that is the only way the BS can know is based on the WS’s actions. What are they doing? How are they living? Are there changes in their behavior? Are they working on fixing themselves? Are they supporting their BS? Without all of that, then I agree with you.

would it still be going on today without the fortuitous timing of your BH's brother? Did you grow, or did you just get caught? Was this new "reconciliation mask" your only way to keep your life intact?

It wouldn’t have gone on for much longer, but not because I suddenly found a conscious or rediscovered my morals or integrity. I did just get caught, but like I said before, I think what matters more than why the A stopped is what the WS does afterwards (I totally understand that it sounds very self serving, but it doesn’t make it less true).

About keeping my life intact, I just want to say that’s it’s been more than 3 years since DDay. That’s hundreds of hours of IC, exercises, and work. Massive changes in my family life, and tens of thousands of dollars spent. If it was just a mask, then it’s just not worth the energy and time.

Sorry to be personal, and I have mentioned this to you before where you wrote off what I said as a cynical way to look at the life.

Don’t worry about being personal. This whole thing is personal.

And you’re right, I did say that. I was being particularly defensive and brushed you off. I’m sorry. That was rude of me, and untrue.

Zug -

I did miss your point. Not anymore. Thanks for clarifying. And point made. :-)

It wouldn’t have gone on for much longer, but not because I suddenly found a conscious or rediscovered my morals or integrity. I did just get caught, but like I said before, I think what matters more than why the A stopped is what the WS does afterwards (I totally understand that it sounds very self serving, but it doesn’t make it less true).

Mrs. W this is true for almost anything a person does for selfish reasons. Just like a kid stealing from the candy jar or a teen spray painting property a WS can learn from making their selfish bad choices. I think because of the magnitude of the pain caused coupled with the fact we choose these choices as adults, people have a hard time realizing that we can still feel remorse and still change who we were.

I think what matters more than why the A stopped is what the WS does afterwards (I totally understand that it sounds very self serving, but it doesn’t make it less true)

For probably the largest majority and percentage of children, teens, adults out there- they rarely stop something because of an epiphany of moral conscience first. It is simply because it isn't working, Consequences outweigh the reward, and the risk becomes too great. It is an addiction and addicts can change and can feel remorse for the damage they did to others. Not just regret for consequences.

How can a BS know that your motivations to reconcile are any different than the motivations to cheat, or to cover up for the cheating?

xhz, I'm not sure I understand what distinction you're making.

My motivations for not cheating include my belief that my life will be easier and more joyful if I don't cheat. Morality plays a part in my belief - one of the messages in our milieu is that monogamy is morally right. But my decision is based on what I think is best for me, not on morality. It's almost pure selfishness.

My W got into a sitch in which she thought it would be easier to get sexual with her client. Later she thought it would easier and more satisfying to be sexual with the client. Still later, she feared the consequences of stopping. At the end, she feared the consequences of not stopping. If the client had not driven my W to her physical limit (W wasn't sleeping or eating), the A would have continued past 12/22/10. It's almost pure selfishness.

Again, I don't understand what you're trying to get at. Can you clarify?

Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but I recently began reading here at SI again and this discussion struck a nerve.

My late WW had an extended EA/PA that ended a decade ago (not by her choice). I only found out last year. In retrospect, I truly believe that in the years between the end of her A and dday she became remorseful. She did most (perhaps all) of the “work” on her own during that time and became a fantastic mate. I said before, I just can’t imagine our relationship being much better during the 6 or 7 years prior to dday.

That being said, I can’t believe that she did not have intermittent, fond/tingly recollections of her time with AP. In fact, that is one of the reasons I could not convince myself to try give R a chance. I can only speak about our situation specifically, but the massive preponderance of evidence from the time of the A makes it clear she was very happily enjoying herself with the “love of her life.” No matter how deeply she recommitted herself to our relationship, those feelings would never go away. I would have always been competing (in my mind at least) with those memories.

So I guess my short answer is yes, a WS can feel remorse (after variable amounts of time and massive amounts of work). But the positive feelings and memories from the A will always be there. I couldn’t deal with that knowledge but that may simply reflect my own weaknesses.

Thanks for an interesting and thought provoking discussion.

This is a really hard one for me, but I know my share of cheating men (no women, other than my WW) and I can tell you, from the way they talk about it to me/friends, they aren't even a little bit regretful about the A/sex. They look back on it fondly, "Yeah, I'm D'ed now, but man, she was a hot little piece of ...". Pretty normal thing for a guy to say, in my experience. Those that have stayed with their wives, it's some mix of "miss the sex with AP" and "love my wife/kids". But what I'd consider "remorse"? I've never seen it other than my W and the posters on here. Now, maybe this is just male bravado in a group of other guys and they do deeply regret what they did. But I think, more than anything, they regret the consequences more than the A itself, if that makes sense.

Of course, because these guys have no reason to lie to me and my wife has every reason to lie, I attach what they say to her. Thinking how she's reminiscing to the hot sex with her AP like the guys seem to. And, just a quick note, this is NOT all guys. There are a lot of male WS's here who I think regret even meeting the AP; but, I think it's more rare than perhaps we'd like to admit.

I also think it's a bit gender segregated, if you're out for sex and you get sex from the A, what's to regret? You wanted something, you got it, you pay the price for what you got, whatever that is. If your out for something else from the A, very often, you'll wind up paying the price (D, or a long/hard road to R) and not get what you paid for (the love/respect/caring of the AP). That has to be difficult, because the price for an A is really high. You better be darn sure that the sex is worth it to you because that's the only thing you're usually going to get. If it's not, yes, I think regret/remorse is easier to come by. I look at my W's A and I shake my head, all this pain for what? She got nothing from the A, nothing at all of any value. Sure, she got a ton of nice words, all of which evaporated on d-day when the AP started making moves to fix things with his wife. He, however, was out for sex and he got that, those memories, those experiences, he'll always have them. So he paid a high price too, but, at least he got something valuable to him out of it.

AmbivalentOne, welcome back. How are you doing? How are your children. I think about your family often, even though I don't know you, and my heart wishes all of you well.

The circumstances of your story were rather unique, but then all A's are unique in their own way. We often talk here on SI, especially on the "General" forum, in generalties, but when one drills down to the specifics of an individual story, generalities fall by the wayside.

We think of the concept of remorse as having its roots in empathy -- a wayward spouse truly understanding and empathizing with the pain and trauma experienced by the betrayed spouse. In your case, though, you did not know of the A. You didn't have trauma. You only knew that your marriage seemed difficult for at time, then it got a better. Therefore, from a certain perspective, it is perhaps not apt to say that your wife had remorse. It's not clear what to call it. Perhaps an epiphany?

Thank you for your thoughts Butforthegrace. You may be right. Perhaps an epiphany followed by proto-remorse? After dday she seemed empathetic/remorseful and followed the post dday playbook closely, but I am not sure I gave her the opportunity to convince me one way or another.

I dont think my ex regrets his actions as it led to marriage and child for him. It sucks and hurts for me because Im sitting her thinking about it still almost everyday. While he sailed off into the sunset. Im sure he regretted HURTING me, and looking like a huge asshole to everyone that knew what he did (buying a house with me and 3 weeks later having a new gf and essentially abandoning me with the financial weight). But, ultimately, I have to accept that he probably doesnt give a shit.

Hope you and your girls are doing good AO. I think of you often. I think your assessment is probably spot on.

I do think my WS regrets what he did and he is beginning to express remorse but he is still very caught up in how this affects him. He has trouble talking about it because he says he is still “processing” that HE did this to me and to the OBs who was one of his good friends and he admits it is hard to think about because it goes against everything he believes in about himself and about other people. The good news is that he is willing to go there with himself and he is willing to go to Ic which I’ll admit I never in a million years thought he would do and it appears that he is willing to go for himself and not just because I suggested that he needs to do it as I’ve expressed in no uncertain terms that I do not know if I am willing/able to stick around even if he does everything I think he should do.

I have a more holistic view of this whole situation than I used to. He can’t just do it for me as one of my terms of staying or whatever as unless he wants to do it for HIM than it will likely only have a limited amount of success. I think he’s tired of living this way, in dishonesty and emotional compartmentalizing land and he’s willing to accept that he has some mental issues that need dealing with. He’s very adverse to medications (as am I) and as he cannot take them and continue to work his current job getting treatment is a bit of a tricky situation. The fact that he is willing to work on getting around those limitations tells me that right now at least he is committed.

I don’t subscribe to the theory that one cannot change as I know I myself am an example of drastic personal and emotional change. Idk what will happen with us but I hope this is the beginning of a positive journey for him. I have a lot of my own issues about what has happened and I too need Ic but these things have to be independent for now. My point is that I think blanket statements about people who cheat and lie are not productive. It’s all about who can manage to claw themselves out of denial, face the consequences of their actions, and move forward and those who can’t.

Do WS’s actually regret what they have done? This has always been an interesting question. But it is also too broad. Do they regret the betrayal? Never. But they know they have to show regret as it is standard policy to do so. Primarily the regret comes in 2 forms- regret for being caught/found out/confessing and regret for causing pain. And therein lies what I think is the issue.

There’s a fine line between the non-regret for being caught and the regret for seeing the pain they have caused. Here is the analogy I have used for years…

Let us say there are 2 best friends [married couple]. As close of friends as can be. One works at home and the other across town and also owns a sweet rag top car. The one who works at home drives their BF to work every day in the hot car while that person sleeps. They have an iron clad rule that the driver will obey every rule of the road so the friend will sleep safely [trust/faith]. And this works well for some time.

So at some point along the way the driver starts speeding a bit [flirting…]. It’s fun. Soon after, bit by bit the driver starts driving faster and faster [betrayal approaches or is starting]. Soon after, seeing her friend is asleep and unaware, they start running stop signs, passing on the wrong side of the road, putting the top down…. All while their best friend sleeps along side them.

Then, the driver crashes the car [betrayal found out]. The good news is that the driver has only a few scrapes. Small, temporary wounds that will soon be gone. But their best friend lost a leg in the accident. A permanent, physical and emotional injury they shall never recover from. Is the driver sorry? Yes- for crashing. Can’t be sorry for the driving as it caused such joy such that they will always remember and cherish the feelings of it. Do they maybe even wish they could take the place of their injured friend? Yes, every so often- maybe.

But do they really and truly know what it’s like to lose a leg. A full amputation? No, never. Until one loses a leg they can never comprehend even 5% what it must be like to live with minute by minute, day by day.

After a short spell, the driver recovers from their guilt and remorse as both are nothing more than temporary emotions. It’s time to move on. They feel fine now. They want to skip, run, jump, dance… because they can. But the passenger has lost a leg. Such things like skipping, running, jumping and dancing are lost to them. Probably forever. To be sure, there are prosthetic devices the passenger can use with varying degrees of success. But they are never made whole again as legs simply don’t grow back.

The driver, seeing this (if they care to) sense a little regret- but still such temporary emotions last for a short time. They simply want to move on with their lives and not be burdened by their one-legged friend’s issues. It’s all behind them, but all in front of their friend.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 10:34 AM, October 12th (Friday)]

I did not originally have remorse for the affair but I did regret it from dday. The AP openly expressed his frustration since going underground would be hard for him. This was regret of being caught. I was despicable in my choices to want to remain in that situation. I was in-turn regretting being caught and in complete denial of what was really happening. I’ve regretted that our colleagues may label me. This was a very shallow and selfish concern.

I now truly regret my affair and grieve over the aftermath it caused. I grieve over realizing that I am a person capable of these horrible actions. I chose to take a downward path instead of investing that energy into something positive and constructive for mine and my childrens’ lives. The energy I put into the affair and the grieving process that followed has stolen time that I will never get back with them.

I am starting to make a list of all things I will have to accept if I go back with my wife.

One of the things I will have to accept is that my wife had an exciting and fulfilling sex life with another man for two years. I will also have to accept she has occasional romantic feelings for him and some kind of intimate friendship with him for two years after 30plus years of marriage.

These things are very difficult to accept.

I also don't believe HikingOut's experience applies to my wife's. HikingOut says she looks back and sees nothing positive about her affair. She looks back with disgust. The difference was her affair was short term with very limited sexual contact.

I doubt my wife will ever look back at a two year affair and see nothing positive about the sex or intimate friendship that lasted two years. This will be very hard to accept.

AO, I read your entire post and was brokenhearted for you. I hope you are doing better and that your girls are healing.

On to the subject. A friend of mine was sitting with a group of family members and for some reason the subject of marriage came up. This was unusual because there were men and women. One man who is nearly 50 and had married at 40 said he spent time with some buddies of his who had married in their 20s. He said they talked in such derogatory terms about their wives that he was appalled. He said they had cheated on their wives and could not wait to get out of that marriages once they did not have to pay child support. My friend said she knew these man. They were college educated professional people who were behaving like spoiled children. The man telling this said he never regretted a single minute of marriage to his wife and was so thankful he found her when he did. They have a couple of kids that he adores. He said it was so sad listening to his friends talk about their wives. My friend said it was so eye opening because you never hear this kind of conversation from men and especially in a room where there were women as well.

Anyway I have a job that gives me access to a lot of tragedy that goes on in the lives of young children and one of the major issues they deal with is this betrayal of their family. If I had my way adultery would be a felony and divorce would be so hard to get that it would be nearly impossible. I live in the US and we are all from birth very familiar with our rights under the Constitution. The right to pursue happiness somehow get translated into the right of happiness and nobody better get in our way of getting it. We don’t seem to understand that life has its ups and downs. The person we marry is a human being with feelings just like us but it is so much easier to go out and have an affair rather than just deal with life.

For whatever reason we in the Western world have become so infantilized in our behaviors and our expectations that it’s a wonder anyone gets married and stays married. I am just so disappointed at how far away from any morality our society seems to have come to.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 1:42 PM, October 30th (Tuesday)]

He said they had cheated on their wives and could not wait to get out of that marriages once they did not have to pay child support. My friend said she knew these man. They were college educated professional people who were behaving like spoiled children.

This is so common in my professional circles I've stopped taking notice. Men who cheat on their wives and then talk about it, either blasting their wife, the AP, or very often, both women. It's sad and juvinile, but, what you heard was "men talking", that's just par for the course in my experience. Often the conversation veers into "dead bedroom had to get mine on the side", which is almost always (in fact, I think it's always the reason I've heard, but there has to be an exception somewhere) the reason given for finding another woman.

Anyway, I'm sorry you had to hear that, but it's not at all unusual. I've heard a million times, "If I'd known then what I know now" from men, always saying the same thing, don't get married and don't have kids. It's sad, disheartening and says something about how we both (sexes) treat one another. And that something isn't good.

I believe my wife is 100 percent regretful and 100 percent remorseful. I feel it in her and see it by her actions.

I still worry that she loved sex with him more than me and experienced some kind intense intimacy with him that she did not experience with me.

She says she looks back at the affair with disgust especially the sex but I have a hard time understanding that perspective. It makes me feel inferior and afraid.