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I think Clint did plenty of work

Such as?

You seem to be mistaking me for Clint if you want the specific details of his experience.

I didn't exactly catalog all of his activities and the steps he took to put himself back together when he and I were new at this back in 2007, but we spoke often enough that I could see the progress in his healing.

What magic words are you looking for that will qualify as your definition of work, exactly? Because my definition is doing whatever the fuck it is you have to do to get functional, then stable, then successful in whatever goals you set for your life (which may or may not include improving the quality or dynamics of the marriage).

While I agree that IC can help people with those steps or help when you get stuck -- and if you find a good IC, help you get there faster than you might on your own -- I also find IC to be a bit of a panacea. IC is useful if you need help deciding what to do and how to come to terms with it once the decision is made. It isn't a guarantee that you'll make the "right" choice (whatever *that* is).

But that could also be because I worked in mental health and knew way too many licensed therapists and counselors whose private lives were complete fucking disasters. Which is not to say that they weren't necessarily good counselors, just that their ability to apply their professional acumen to their own experience was often lacking. I think you can get just as far finding people who seem to have their shit together, or who have been through what you're going through and have come out the other side with an outcome that seems attractive to you, and talking to them. But I also liked talking to people whose outcomes were complete batshit, because that gave me some pretty clear indicators of what *not* to do to get my shit together.

Maybe that doesn't count because none of those people had pieces of paper from a regionally accredited educational institution certifying their two years of study? But I'm one of those people who reads things and thinks about them. I get that not everyone wants to do that work when they can talk to someone else who has already done the reading.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 4:27 PM, February 2nd (Saturday)]

I don't know if I have ever read of a remorseful WS doing the work and going to IC reconciling with a BS who is working on themselves and going to IC where it does not work out. And if it exists, it is the rare exception...

Then you haven't spent much time reading in the divorce or new beginnings forum.

Many BSs in those forums came to realize that - regardless of their WS's remorse and transformation, betrayal was simply a deal breaker, an divorce was the best option.

Read the many posts labeled things like "divorcing a remorseful spouse"...

IC is not magic. It can't always put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Nor should it. For many people, divorce is simply the better option.

If you think the remedy is divorce, you are a fool who is going to potentially lose a lot looking for a magic fix to the pain of trauma.

This is offensive. There is no need to call anyone a fool. The original poster may decide that divorce is the best option for him. It does NOT make him a fool.

No one ever said divorce was a magic fix or way to erase trauma. But in some cases, it is the best way to move towards healing and build a better life.

I know gobs and gobs of bitter, angry divorcees. Divorce doesn't magically fix your heart or mind.

But we know that this marriage is not working for the original poster. So maybe it is time to consider other options.

Clint, I feel awful for you, but your story makes me feel like I dodged a bullet. I stuck it out for 5 years with a remorseful spouse, but ultimately the same stain you saw was one I couldn’t get out of my head

It is also disturbing that a spouse who decides they can’t live with the fact that their partner cheated is told if they get divorced it’s because they didn’t work hard enough to get over it. How about the idea that they are getting divorced because their spouse fu*ked someone else.

I get that staying with your spouse is a goal for some. It actually was for me too. But to be vilified because I couldn’t live with what she did is insulting.

I divorced her, and even she will admit she deserved it.

Clint, I completely understand what you are saying. I stayed for many of the reasons that you stated, but my WH was NOT remorseful.

You made your decision THEN for many valid reasons. Many of those reasons are changing, or perhaps, you may be finding those reasons are not fully worth the outcome of how you are feeling and what you feel the person you are becoming.

You, yourself, are thinking of going to to IC. I think this would be a good choice to help you navigate what you are feeling right now. Talking to an objective person can help, and for me, just talking aloud about some of my feelings helped put thing in perspective for me.

I feel you need to work on helping yourself feel better. NOW. Not when you feel you will be free down the road sometime. It's like when a lot of people say, "I'll be happy when....a) I finish school b) get a better job c) get a house d)get married e) have kids f) have more money, etc etc etc" The time to be happy is NOW.

I don't think your post is so much about whether or not you want to D. I think you have already made that decision, but it may be a question of WHEN.

I also want to thank you for starting this post. Many of the responses here are outstanding and to know that I'm not the only one who stuck it out for so long for the kids and a lot of other reasons helped me a lot today. Sometimes I wonder if I felt like I sacrificed myself for so long that there would be some kind of award or some kind of relief down the long dark tunnel? Instead, I just feel like a scarred person starting to blink at the light at the end and almost afraid to come out.

IC is not magic.

I know one thing. It definitely can't work if you don't ever try it.

Thank you for sharing this. It reaffirms my decision to leave was right. I hope you find peace when you are able to do so.

Hey Clint,

Don’t let anybody make you feel bad, or lesser than, for your decision. Or how you have conducted yourself. You stayed in there. Provided for your kids. Got them thru the formative years. You didn’t physically or mentally abuse your wife. You didn’t kill anybody.

And most importantly, you didn’t ask for any of this. She brought this shitshow into your life. By choice. Not accident.

At the end of the day you must make yourself your own mental point of origin. You decide what is best for you. We can play should’ve, would’ve, could’ve all day. But all that mental masturbation does not change where you are now.

I hope you can find some happiness.

Clint,

You’re heading in the direction you must go for healing. It seems you have identified that the betrayal was a dealbreaker, even if it took you some time to evaluate what your head, heart & logistical situation ultimately concluded. I suggest joining a local divorce support group, one where people care about each other (hint on google key words there). I joined a group after my separation in lieu of IC, and it really put the D and grief process in perspective. I much preferred it to MC/IC actually, and I met several great people and found a new church in the process.

Do what’s best for you. I initially wanted to wait to D until DS graduated HS, then subsequent DDays reduced that time to entering Middle School, then entering Elementary, to leaving ASAP. DS is a completely different kid than he was a few months ago. He’s a ball of energy, par for the course, but he’s adjusted quite well and less likely to act out now. The strain between his dad & I was impacting him more than I realized.

Formulate your plan and start taking appropriate actions. Meanwhile, take care of your self! Join a club, or a meetup with like minded individuals. Step out of that shadow betrayal has cast over your life. Go have fun!

There are two types of men: men for whom affairs are deal-breakers and leave, and men for whom affairs aren't deal-breakers, so they stay. Neither is superior or inferior, they are just different.

Financial considerations, young kids, a truly remorseful wife, being guilted into the standard "IC/MC all inclusive package", etc. may delay the decision but for BH's in the first category, it will just unnecessarily prolong the pain.

For some men, affairs are deal-breakers. There are no second chances. It is as simple as that. There is no need to go through the IC/MC charade - best to forgive, leave and recover. Incorporating a healthy lifestyle, eating healthy, exercising and simple meditation and mindfulness practices will do wonders in bringing about fast healing without eating a shit sandwich for decades like OP has done so far.

This is my first post outside my own sad thread so forgive me if out of line but as someone new to this nightmare, I am really saddened by a lot of these comments...as though some are blaming the OP for his unhappiness and criticizing him for that. It hurts from my perspective. I sit here completely destroyed and see this and now think the burden is all on the BS to heal? Did we ask for this pile of crap? Why can't we just walk away, or gut it out based on economics, or kids and what we think is best for them without being criticized? I think he's a goddamned saint for gutting it out for his kid's sake. Would I do it? I don't know but I sure as heck wouldn't tell him he was wrong for doing that. Or wrong for wanting to divorce, or flaunt my success at reconciliation in his face, basically emphasizing he's not strong enough or trying hard enough to reconcile. That was hurtful and seemed really smug and judgey to read. I doubt I'll share much now about what I feel about where I am in the process for fear of being judged so harshly.

Take it for what it's worth from a freshly wounded BS.

Clint I am sorry you are unhappy. I hope that you can find peace and joy soon.

Speedbump...

Please don't let some of these responses run you off.

The best advice here is "take what you need and leave the rest".

This is my first post outside my own sad thread so forgive me if out of line but as someone new to this nightmare, I am really saddened by a lot of these comments...as though some are blaming the OP for his unhappiness and criticizing him for that. It hurts from my perspective. I sit here completely destroyed and see this and now think the burden is all on the BS to heal? Did we ask for this pile of crap? Why can't we just walk away, or gut it out based on economics, or kids and what we think is best for them without being criticized? I think he's a goddamned saint for gutting it out for his kid's sake. Would I do it? I don't know but I sure as heck wouldn't tell him he was wrong for doing that. Or wrong for wanting to divorce, or flaunt my success at reconciliation in his face, basically emphasizing he's not strong enough or trying hard enough to reconcile. That was hurtful and seemed really smug and judgey to read. I doubt I'll share much now about what I feel about where I am in the process for fear of being judged so harshly.

So very well put...

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 10:16 AM, February 3rd (Sunday)]

@ speedbump,

For me, Clint’s advice to the ‘freshly wounded’ BSs in JFO to run as fast as they can needs balanced by other perspectives because...

What I didnt bank on is how it would sour my disposition and outlook on life in general. My personality changed. I've aged dramatically when you look at pre affair pics of me. I almost became a social recluse, and have never really regained my old footing in that manner. I feel like my marriage still has the outline of a shit stain on it..faded over the years..but I can still see it. It changed me into something I dont like very much.

... it seems to give the message that a BS doesn’t have any agency, in how they respond to their situation and indeed how their disposition can continue to be within their control. It doesn’t clarify whether it is the affair or the decision to stay married, and the subsequent disappointment with that marriage, that has soured his disposition and turned him into someone he doesn’t like. Sounds like Clint thinks his disposition would have soured even if he had divorced then. Lose - lose seems to be his message.

Either way, I contend that one’s disposition and outlook is a choice, a choice that one makes daily and over the long term so therefore I do feel that such a pessimistic message can usefully be countered for, and to empower, new BSs reading here.

It would seem to me that as your current external circumstances are changing (ie, kids almost grown) then so too is your clarity for your next best direction/decision.

I love this and it seems to be the case with myself. Since I have decided to stay with an unremorseful spouse my perspective is constantly changing as I grow and get stronger in IC.

I've been in IC since 2012 and there are still times that I am suffering. It could be that I'm staying with an unremorseful spouse who knows. I'm afraid of what D looks like for me right now. That could always change.

I think any one of us here could decide years later that it's a dealbreaker.

Some of you wont want to hear this, but after 13 years since the affair, I wish I had started divorce proceedings the day I found out.

Clint, my only nit to pick with you, is seeing it all as a waste. For some set of reasons, you wanted to try 13 years ago to see what you could make of this, and you did try. If you hadn't tried when you wanted to, you wouldn't have been true to yourself.

Most marriages in your situation don't survive an A. Some men bail immediately, some try but learn it is not for them, some succeed. I give you major points for fighting the fight, throwing in, and seeing where the chips landed. It is too easy to quit.

Tons of marriages fail for reasons other than divorce. People just learn they don't like each other that much, once the bloom has come off of the rose. It is what it is.

Best of luck going forward, Clint.

Sending Strength!

I just would like to point out to any new BSs that may be reading here...or even those that may be further along but still struggling with either making a decision or with the decisions they have made....

This is all a process...and there is not ONE decision to be made. And in that, there is also not one RIGHT decision. Life itself requires change. It’s inevitable. You’re not the same person you were 10 years ago, 20 years ago, for a multitude of reasons. We want to label them good or bad - just as we want to label decisions we made along the way as right or wrong - but you just can’t do that. And trying to do that will cause pain and regret...a feeling that if you had just done something different then you would have had a different result. And you probably would have - but you just can’t do that. It’s the only “issue” I have taken with Clint’s original post (which I understand is coming from a place of current pain). I’ll say it again - you can’t compare the outcome of a past choice with the perceived outcome of a different choice.

You absolutely will be changed by this experience. There is no way to mitigate that...not at the onset, not in hindsight. Why would you even want to??? What would be the point in even living?? How would happiness even exist without the experience of also sadness? Have you ever known a person that seemed to have everything yet still found reasons to be unhappy? Yeah. That’s in our nature...it’s necessary for the contrast. We will create it if we have to.

When you can accept this, stop resisting the change, and give up the notion of any one right choice - whether you are seemingly facing making it or are regretting the outcome of one already made - you will find peace in all of this process. You can become one with Life rather than feeling like you are always having to work against it. THIS is what we are all ultimately wanting. Many of us have assigned the path to this oneness as being through our marital/primary relationships. It’s not. There’s no gold at the end of that rainbow - unicorn or not. This is what this experience is showing us.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 11:46 AM, February 3rd (Sunday)]