SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

No stop sign so here goes.

You've learned nothing.

You're making excuses, your posts are full of them!--gee, it's a much different affair, and golly in the way-back, you "tried" to make amends and you "felt" like you were making good progress and that's just from the first page.

It doesn't sound to me that anything was actually internalized on your part.

I have no idea if number of posts means a person is sincere but you seem to wear that as a badge.

People say this for a reason:

Once a cheater, always a cheater.

Granted, I know some posters here have done the work, shown remorse, changed their lives, etc etc and never cheated again--they are few and far between...and here you are 12 years later, wanting to be expiated, it seems to me.

This is not an oopsie. You knew better, and yet you did it anyway, knowing from the first time you had an A what effect it had on your M and your spouse.

I don't care if you don't want to hear it or not. Do your husband a HUGE favor and divorce him, so he can go on for whatever time he has left on earth, not being tied to a cheater who feels soooo bad and wants to fix it or whatever.

You cheating again is heartbreaking and I'm sad beyond words for your BS.

Edited to add: I agree with Thanksgiving2016's posts!!!!!

[This message edited by Hope2B at 3:17 AM, May 8th (Wednesday)]

Now, I've done it again - 12 years later. This time, a much different affair. The last, almost exclusively physical, this time, very much emotional and physical. I actually have a hard time differentiating the 2 because in my mind, they are linked. Linked because of childhood trauma - maybe. I felt very sure the first tine around, this time I'm not as quick to assign blame or a reason. Maybe it's a personality disorder. I'm not clear.

Childhood sexual abuse and your FOO issues very much have something to do with it all, of this I am quite sure. When you seek a therapist multiple times as you have stated, how have they helped you? Did you find a true specialist in childhood sexual abuse or did you just find someone who listened to you talk about childhood sexual abuse? Different kind of therapist.

The part with the 2nd OM and him being a long time friend that you never felt you needed boundaries with but did admit at one time you had romantic feelings for him way back, yet you kept in touch and one day he was in town and was bored so you suggested pizza and a beer? You opened that window, why? What was going on in your life that you felt you "deserved" to have a secret friend again? What is it about the sneakiness of keeping a secret from your H that allows you to open that window into yourself? What are you so unhappy about with your married life and your kids (you are the one who has said they are difficult and one is a cutter) that deep down inside you feel you deserve to have a secret friend?

I don't say this to be mean, truly. Right at that point where you keep a secret, you hide something, you twist it in different ways so as to justify why "your way of thinking" is better then what anyone else might tell you or advise you to stop? Or let your BS know that you are texting and messaging another man? At what point did you start keeping it a secret? Did your BS EVER know about this long time friend that you had previous romantic feelings for a long time ago?

I asked if he wanted to meet me for pizza and beer one night. We did, talked for hours and went our separate ways. The messages picked up and we met more frequently - lunches, a workout, etc. It spiralled quickly and because an EA/PA that went on for months. BH discovered, and I went underground with it, then trickle truthed before finally NC. OM lives with a long term girlfriend and their kids.

From what you wrote above, your BS asked and you lied. Repeatedly. You wanted to keep your secret and your lover, yet keep your marriage and your BS. So every day per your above statement you kept lying and then the trickle truth, which is death by a thousand cuts to a BS because of the constant gas lighting. To distort his own truths day after day, to allow him to question his own sanity so that you could keep lying and keep taking it underground. This is what emotional abuse is all about.

I've half heartedly read some articles, went to IC for a few months. Mostly, I'd like to bury my head in the sand. I'm going to be very honest here. I struggle with control issues. I'm sure it's due to abuse as a child or whatever, but I "run the show" with everything. I am always the one to take on projects at work, be promoted, get raises. I have been to see multiple ICs starting back after the first affair. I have never had one that has been able to get to the root of my issues and breakthrough. Within minutes, I am controlling the session and steering it, subconsciously. I don't mean to at all. I go in with the very best intentions, want to heal and figure out why in God's name I use affairs to escape from life, but have never been successful with IC. It makes me not want to spend the time and money, only to bulldoze another professional.

Taking the time to find someone who is truly trained in childhood sexual trauma is important. But the part where you admit you "like to control" things or that you "bulldoze another professional" is something where you feel you are smarter than them. You go but you just feel like you know more then they do.

I've always felt like BH was angry and never really forgave the last A, although he may be right when he tells me that's something I carry around with me. He has spent years being angry, sometimes at/about the kids, sometimes just in general. It's not an excuse for an affair - geez, you'd think I would have known better the second time around, right?

Your BH probably has been angry, and why do you think or feel he never really forgave the first A? You say he has spent years being angry, in what way? I think it is important that you go down this particular line of thinking. Because you wrote it yourself and you are feeling it. So what does it mean to you?

People in general who like to "control" their world, or lets just say "over control" things around can very typically be over achievers, they take on way too many things and they do that because they are talented and because they want to... but they start to silently resent it all inside. And like a slowly boiling teapot it will finally implode.

I won't tell you to get a divorce cuz I don't know you and your BS so not my call. I do however think that 2 people can be so intertwined in a long term marriage that they many times cannot see a way to separate out a healthy normal life where each person has "healthy" outlets outside of the marriage where they can blow off some steam. Do you have girlfriends you could have hung out with? When not working or with kids or at home what do you like to do?

Why was your choice of having a friend be a male friend? How long have you been "messaging" him before it escalated? Did your BS know about the long time "messaging" of this friend?

I think you like to keep secrets. Most WS, if they truly admitted it, just do. You know as well as any others that keeping any kind of secrets is an intimacy and relationship killer. I think deep down inside you have huge resentments regarding your BS, things you hold inside and then you feel you "deserve" to have an outside friend. Cuz you knew what you were doing when you first asked this friend to go to lunch and "talked for hours". Each step of the way you knew.

So if you are peeling the onion away as we like to say, why did you allow it to go beyond that first lunch? Why did you let your boundaries down? And then not tell your BS? What was going on with you that allowed you to shut off your husband and your family? What do you really want? You are shutting off something deep inside that you are not bringing to the surface.

How long did the affair last? Many months could mean anything, you've already admitted to taking it underground for more than a year.

When did you feel your boundaries slipping? Was it from the first invitation for a beer one night when he was bored? You must have known this was not appropriate behavior, why not speak to your BH.

I'll ask again, no talk of love, respect, caring, anything but your husband's anger issues in your opening post. Since then there's been (I believe) one lukewarm mention of love for your husband. Do you have any feelings for him or are you staying out of habit after a long marriage? It's hard to gauge with your writing style.

My heart stopped when I started reading your posts. Thank you so much for posting. I know it wasn't easy and you knew that these posts would trigger some people, but posted anyway. Thank you for that.

My partner is deathly scared of me being a repeat offender. I'm more or less than two years out, so I'm still early on into the journey.

I saw your first post and showed it to my partner. We both agree that if we were in your situation it would be in the best interest for everyone involved if we went our separate ways, because another A would indicate that nothing was learned, all the "hard work" was worthless and the WS didn't actually grow or mature from the first situation. Please understand that's our thoughts on what you have written and is mostly inference.

I can't fathom what it's like for you put yourself in this situation again. We all make bad choices, but to learn nothing from them...

[This message edited by MrsSouthAfrica at 4:01 AM, May 8th (Wednesday)]

This thread is so sad and depressing, I'm so sorry for everyone involved. This includes the whole SI community. For me It feels like a big defeat for the whole WW-forum.

Probably it's just a trigger, but still. This is a huge disappointment for all of the BSs that read but maybe don't post on the WW forum. Some of us love to read there to see that real remorse is possible. And then the "star-pupils" fail... This is really not personal, because I don't know s...t, but still, what a disappointment. I will have to take a break from SI

RealityBites: Thank you for your post

I think you like to keep secrets. Most WS, if they truly admitted it, just do. You know as well as any others that keeping any kind of secrets is an intimacy and relationship killer.

I agree with this 1000%, and I think it's all about CONTROL (just as "gaslighting" is about control), which the OP has identified as a serious issue.

I've also directed/controlled IC and it can take me a few attempts to find someone with skills to see it and challenge it. I don't see it as being "smarter", but some IC are better at calling out bologna than others (I see it as different styles/skillsets vs intellectual ability). I'm not a WS, but I do need an IC who challenges me and my thinking, etc. in a way that I can hear (isn't that the point of IC? ). So I guess I don't really understand why, if one recognizes this, they don't search for an IC who "works" with their style of control? And I guess I don't understand why even bother to go to an IC if you are just bulldozing.... sounds like paying for a membership and taking the time to drive to the gym, only to watch others workout, all in order to tell yourself you exercised....

As to trauma, obviously an IC with expertise here, and I recommend the book the body keeps the score by Bassel Van Der Kolk. There are several modes for treatment, but suspect all of them could also be "gamed" if one is so inclined.

Finally, do you notice that your responses seem evasive?

[This message edited by gmc94 at 5:27 AM, May 8th, 2019 (Wednesday)]

I'm not going to have time to answer each individual posts, I'm sorry. Like I said, I'm not sure why I posted. I'm really sorry I've triggered so many.

As for romanticizing the A, I was asked multiple times how I allowed it to happen, I answered and told the story. Honestly, they were correct when I was accused of dodging the question.

As for thinking I'm smarter than everyone, that is not the case right now. At all. I'm not doing a good job trying to put everything together. I've been reading and trying to understand why I've seen ICs and it doesn't seem to work well for me. Introspection has led me to believe I subconsciously steer the conversation and don't allow the process to work - but that's a new thought and it's not something I go in purposefully to do. I don't think I've done a good job choosing the correct one with the right background, as suggested above.

As for the rest, I do agree with you. I'm not happy with the things I've done or the people I've destroyed. I'm honestly trying right now to make some amends. I'm not trying to excuse anything. What I've done is horrible.

ETA: the lukewarm claim to love my husband was met with lots of posts disagreeing with me, which I expected. I know I have not treated him as if I love him. I do love him - we actually are very compatible. I think we've both had a lot of trauma in the past that make it difficult to show love, and I think we're both terribly codependent. I think we've had very little time in our 20+ year marriage where it's been an easy love ( and that's from him - not me).

[This message edited by ManyRegrets at 5:33 AM, May 8th (Wednesday)]

As a WW myself, I am saddened by this post. I just don't understand how you coud witness the devastation of an A, then wait a decade and do it all over again (and make it worse by not stopping the A on dday2). This reinforces the idea that the work never ends and a WS must continue to examine their mindset. As Mad-Eye Moody once said, "Constant vigilance!" I can't imagine having to tell my BH that I have chosen to destroy him again. I remember when I confessed my A to my sister who is a BS in R. She told me that I would have to work harder for R than I had ever worked on anything before and to make sure that it was what I really wanted. After your first A, did you really want to R? Did your work mean anything to you or did you manipulate your way through R, saying and doing the right things until you didn't feel like doing them anymore?

I'm not asking to be harsh, though it may seem that way. I am a year out, and I can't fathom putting my BH through this again. I, too, am someone who thinks analytically and thinks my writing is austere, but I have trouble picturing trying to manipulate the outcome of IC (and I hold an advanced degree in Psychology). I know therapy works if you allow it to, so why be manipulative there? Were you aware at the time that you were faking your IC?

I think in your case, the BSs are right to be appalled and triggered. And perhaps to suggest you allow your BS the opportunity to live a life free from manipulation. I do hope that you can figure out why you have done this to yourself again, and truly attempt to fix what is broken within. Perhaps this time, you will allow yourself the chance to become a person you don't feel needs to hide.

I agree with the others that I don't think you can save your marriage. But you can still save yourself. Be the best mom you can and a better person.

I think that there is something wrong. The way you could cheat again and again for months and continue with contact for 1 year. I'm a MH so I get it but I couldn't live with the guilt, I had physical pain and I felt crazy until I confessed.

You should try to find a better counselor and don't gave up. I know people with the same control issues that you have and they are not happy people. Try to volunteer maybe you could gain more inside that we can't control everything. I would also suggest meditation for the control thing.

Please be gentle to your husband, let him find his happy again.

I think your post has revealed several paths that you can explore as a part of your healing and growth:

Lack of normal emotions/empathy: I think what most people here are reacting to is your seeming lack of empathy and normal emotions regarding relationships, particularly your spouse. This is going to trip you up in all your relationships if it is not addressed. Someone with a normal amount of empathy is going to think of other people's feelings before embarking on a path that will cause pain to a loved one. You've missed those steps repeatedly. This is something to explore in therapy.

Control: While control can be a good thing, when it is used to hide things or to manipulate people, it is a bad thing. You've used manipulative techniques--particularly lying--to control and manipulate outcomes, particularly with your spouse. Sometimes we need to let go the outcome, particularly in relationships. Again, something to explore in therapy.

Avoidance: You avoid the bad parts of yourself, both in real life and in a therapy situation. You try mightily to not see your faults and your failures. You use manipulation to avoid being vulnerable in therapy. This is why therapy hasn't worked for you. I wonder if secretly you feel superior to the therapist and just check out.

All of these describe my ex-husband. His relationships are doomed to eventual failure because he cannot be authentic and vulnerable in ANY relationship.

Food for thought.

Cat

Once again to the BS's on this thread. If you can't post respectfully, step away. The Wayward forum is the place for Waywards to work out their feelings.

Many Regrets,

Like a drug addict who thought they were clean you are back using again. Like an alcoholic who had sobered up, you are drunk again.

What are you going to do today to improve yourself?

You story is saddening and humbling. I have hoped I affair-proofed myself after my A now that I know how insatiable my ego is. Now I know about "Ego-Kibbles, cake-eating, entitlement, limerance, broken-attracts-broken, The Fog, Compartmentalization, the Bathsheba Complex" all that.

Just watching train wrecks happening real-time like the worlds richest person wrecking his marriage and family to some cheerleader, makes me remember how powerful things like ego-kibbles can be.

Some people feel so entitled. I know I did. Of course, I thought, two was better than one. But it's not. I'm watching this case of Lori Loughlin play out in the college admissions cheating scandal.....her level of entitlement is massive. Of course she gets to play by different rules, she thinks. But she doesn't.

I wish you well to heal yourself. There's much digging left.

You know there have been a number of BSs returning to SI telling a similar story on JFO recently. Finding out their WS has been cheating again after a decade or more. You are the first wayward to have posted however and I do commend you for that.

I think you need to find a therapist who is strong enough not to let you deflect and redirect the conversation when you begin to get uncomfortable. That's part of the battle. Good luck.

I think your post has revealed several paths that you can explore as a part of your healing and growth:

Lack of normal emotions/empathy: I think what most people here are reacting to is your seeming lack of empathy and normal emotions regarding relationships, particularly your spouse. This is going to trip you up in all your relationships if it is not addressed. Someone with a normal amount of empathy is going to think of other people's feelings before embarking on a path that will cause pain to a loved one. You've missed those steps repeatedly. This is something to explore in therapy.

Control: While control can be a good thing, when it is used to hide things or to manipulate people, it is a bad thing. You've used manipulative techniquesparticularly lyingto control and manipulate outcomes, particularly with your spouse. Sometimes we need to let go the outcome, particularly in relationships. Again, something to explore in therapy.

Avoidance: You avoid the bad parts of yourself, both in real life and in a therapy situation. You try mightily to not see your faults and your failures. You use manipulation to avoid being vulnerable in therapy. This is why therapy hasn't worked for you. I wonder if secretly you feel superior to the therapist and just check out.

^^^ All of this.

When I think of a little girl whose bones were broken, who was sexually abused by two trusted figures, and who was expected to be a peer to her mother, I am very moved. I can see how faulty coping mechanisms would be adopted to survive. I am so sorry that those things that you didn't deserve happened to you. Now you only feel safe if you are controlling the situation, even therapy where you must let go in order to process and heal.

You mentioned that perhaps you are a sociopath. None of us are qualified to say . . . you need a real professional's assessment. But sociopaths are still human beings and you can still grow and change. Knowledge is power, so you must seek it out.

What was lacking from your posts was you doing what I have done here . . . imagining stepping inside your shoes and what that would do a human heart. There is a noticeable lack of you stepping inside your husband's or children's shoes and imagining how hard this stuff is for them. Until you really deal with your childhood trauma, you may not have room for empathy in your heart. The first step is to be aware of that and to stop believing your narrative that you were fully remorseful, that you are a fully present parent, etc. Even mentioning that spending time with your kids has never been a burden is odd to most of us because whether or not it feels burdensome is irrelevant to our duty and our love. Love is not a burden, it's a gift.

I'm curious about how often you mention "making amends." Is this tied into your beliefs about love being transactional?

You can't think your way out of this mess. Thinking won't reset a bone broken long ago or heal a festering wound. You will have to let go of your need to control and just feel, even if the feelings are scary. You will not be a safe and healthy spouse and parent until you break the urge to control your world and depend instead of deep stores of resilience and self-love. And you cannot develop these until you heal that little girl. You cannot pour from an empty vessel.

I'm not sure about the advice to initiate the divorce yourself immediately. I think it would be better to change your m.o. and let your husband be in control.

We all want assurance that we won't be hurt again. You want to control the world around you so are never that little girl again. The BS who read your story and panic want to know that if their WS does the right things, then they are safe from further trauma. But the truth is that we can never affair-proof or accident-proof our lives enough to avoid hurt. Letting other people in means that we can and will be hurt. This is OK because we are strong, resilient people who will always find love in our lives, even if it comes from a different source than we hoped. We are valued and valuable, and other people's absence or betrayal can never change that.

Therapy, therapy, therapy. You need someone to guide you through these explorations. Neurons that fire together, wire together. You've learned to cope by escaping and controlling and it's as natural as breathing to you now. Let a professional help you unpack all of this and start from scratch.

[This message edited by swmnbc at 8:31 AM, May 8th, 2019 (Wednesday)]

I agree with Carissma. You sound detached. You talk about how you should feel and what you know without really feeling it. You lack empathy IMO. You faked it the whole time. Maybe the only time you feel is when you have control. Why after and affair would you meet another man for pizza? That is just common sense a shitty thing to do after cheating. I would investigate your need to be admired which you can get by being in control and the first to do things. Obviously you have problems if not resentment that your husband doesn't admire you anymore because you cheated and you can't get over that he will always have a different perspective of you. You feed off of being desired. You threw everything away because you still need that ego kibble and never did the real the change to be enough for yourself. So, you white knuckled it all this time till you were too empty to resist a chance to get a feeding again. All the IC in the world can't help you till you get disgusted enough in yourself to really want to change be enough for yourself independent of everyone else.

Just pointing out your need for control and to be the first could have become your new addiction after your first affair.

BS, don't despair. There are easy ways to tell if your WS has really changed. Look for signs of new addictions. Those new addictions can be almost anything including playing a KISA role in attempts to be selfless with everyone. If they are doing that, ask what they get out of it? Are they vulnerable? Do they talk about themselves and their fears? Do they seek attention and validation in all areas of their lives? Have they detached from their family or are they investing in it. Are they selfish or selfless. Do they display empathy? People do and can change. Those that repeat probably had a ton of signs that they never did. Looking back you could probably see them as acting the part but never being vulnerable and actually talking/being intimate with you.

I don't know if you have value at this time to help others, but I see a person who still needs support and help. Perhaps consider posting here but keep a stop sign up for a while. You obviously understand why this is so triggering. In fact, I really had to take a deep breath and wait to post because you make ME afraid of what the future looks like. I have gained confidence that I have learned and would not reinjure my H. And, then you come on and probably thought the same thing at one point in time.

I feel like if you can be here and be honest, that I can still learn from you how that vigilance dies. It's not a bad thing to realize that people think they have this licked and then they don't - if you are the WS.

I would stay UNLESS it hinders your husband from getting help. I think you have to realize it's time to put him and his needs above yours. I can't imagine if he wants to stay that he won't read what you say and it won't keep things fresh for him. However, I worry if you are stable, at risk for suicide? I think everyone deserves support, and I want you to get better and be around for your kids.

I don't know if you have value at this time to help others, but I see a person who still needs support and help.

Agree and disagree. I do see value in your posting. There are other BS out there that have WS like you. We get most that do want to save and change and eventually have empathy and remorse. If they don't they eventually leave. Like it or not, there are WS like you. You need to decide if you want to fight what you know you are or not. Maybe you can't. Maybe you were already a narcissist or who knows what with a shitty childhood on top. Maybe you are a sociopath or psychopath? Whatever is the root, you need some intensive therapy and you need to let go of control if you really want to live and experience some sense of joy in your life before you die. What you have been for X amount of years is not living. Find an therapist that will not allow you to manipulate and control the sessions if you can be brave enough to do so. Your children deserve so much better and so do you. Don't let this be your legacy to them. Stop the cycle of dysfunction.

INAPPROPRIATE RESPONSE

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:28 PM, May 8th (Wednesday)]

I can remember making a topic about this a while ago. A WS who cheats again seeing the pain and hurt that it causes to their spouse and M but they choose to do it again. That the damage the first time was not a huge wake up call for them. The pain and heartbreak in their spouse eyes was not enough not too cheat again. I simply don’t understand this and one story that someone cheated again it seems to me it threws all the successful stories out of the window. Like one bad apple in the group and now they are all bad.

We get comments like this.

“This is exactly it's never worth the risk of taking a POS cheater back for reconciliation. Once a POS cheater, always a POS cheater.”

One bad story and now we are all POS cheaters!!! It frustrates me that’s everyone sees this as one sizes fits all. All cheater are the same type of person. They are only sorry becase they got caught ect.....Not every story is the same and has the exact same outcome. I wish we could just take one person and stick to their story and not make it about every WS on here or in general. Stick to the post, their story, and commen about their situation instead of it going into left field and completely off track