SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

oldtruck

I think you are missing the fact that a spouse in an affair is a deeply immoral, selfish and self-centered person who is disconnected from truth and love.

After a wayward becomes remorseful truth changes the way they see their entire affair including the AP and sex with their AP.

For example during the affair the wayward may see her AP as her soulmate. After remorse the wayward may see her AP as a liar who would say anything to get a blow job who was also cheating on his wife and destroying his family while hurting her husband and her family. It is unlikely that a woman would continue to see sex with such a man after remorse in the same way as before remorse.

My wife did admit that sex was "exciting" and "thrilling" with her AP when I asked her immediately after Dday. Now that she is remorseful she looks back at sex with her AP as the lowest point of her life. It was rock bottom for her alcoholism. It was rock bottom for her morality. It was rock bottom for her life. She was living the life of a filthy, liar, cheater with no morals and allowing another man to use her body for her holes. Women don't like knowing that a man is using their body for their holes that is why they dress up their affairs with fantasies ( soul mates, ect ). After remorse sets in the lies crumble down and they see their affairs differently including the sex.

I have little/no doubt that affair sex would be mind bending for me personally, and, for a long time, I struggled to see how it could be anything but for my WW.

Really?

You wouldn't feel bad about using someone or destroying your marriage? Those are a couple reasons 'affair' sex has zero appeal to me.

I think these are also the reasons that can get in the way for anyone with a conscience to truly enjoy it beyond the short term. I think the best performances would be tainted by an aspect of guilt -- which is why people try to keep these encounters a secret.

Ultimately, I get it. The fantasy of 'no strings attached' is a good one.

But then again, I think true NSA sex is very rare and likely very average compared to when two people have a real connection.

I agree with OldWounds. Affair sex has no appeal to me because I would have to sell-out my own integrity and fuck a woman willing to have sex with a married man or lie to a woman and cover up the fact that I am married. Sex with lies and no integrity has no appeal to me.

Women don't like knowing that a man is using their body for their holes that is why they dress up their affairs with fantasies ( soul mates, ect ). After remorse sets in the lies crumble down and they see their affairs differently including the sex.

I strongly suspect this is the case too. Depending on the circumstances, the "real deal" of an A often becomes clear after d-day. And, while not all affairs, very often I suspect one AP comes to realize that they were just an unpaid prostitute/gigolo for the other. That's why I've often said, if you get into an A looking for anything more than "new sex", you're looking in the wrong place. That romance story? It's a fiction. A poorly written fiction at that.

You better place a very, very high value on "new sex" if you plan to get your "money's worth" out of an affair. I suspect that's a big part of the reason the cheating men I know do it, a very high value on new sex, with relatively manageable fallout. The cost/benefit analysis, sick as it might be/is, pans out for them, so they do it on a serial basis.

The guy/girl who's out for the holes/poles.. Well, there's no fiction to come "crashing down". They know what they were doing and why they were doing it. It's the other group, which I suspect almost all the WS's here fall, that feels that fallout and then comes to re-write the sexual experience. Even at that, I have trouble believing some of it; I've had sex that resulted in horrible consequences, but.. In some cases, it was still great sex. I guess I compartmentalize more than some..

I strongly suspect this is the case too. Depending on the circumstances, the "real deal" of an A often becomes clear after d-day. And, while not all affairs, very often I suspect one AP comes to realize that they were just an unpaid prostitute/gigolo for the other. That's why I've often said, if you get into an A looking for anything more than new sex", you're looking in the wrong place. That romance story? It's a fiction. A poorly written fiction at that.

I actually said this to WH the other day, that he may as well have been with a prostitute. So of course he quips "yeah, like I left $5 on the nightstand". I told him he paid alright - with his integrity, with his morals, with his character, with his marriage and family, with his self-respect and self-esteem. He certainly did pay for it.

I've fought against replying on this subject. Mostly because I'm still so raw and I don't know what my outcome will be. BUT I'm here so let's contribute as an older woman who has been married for many years. I get that life, marriage, sex can become like a pair of comfy slippers. I do struggle enormously that the illicit sex would be exciting for many reasons mentioned and I agree it is more likely the truth that it is. What I don't get is why someone who is happy and content crosses that line. They cross it and then deal with the why's, once the nuclear explosion has happened. It hurts everyone. There is no doubts about that. Does anyone really remember the sex the next day, month or year? Do we remember the sex we had at the beginning of the relationship with our spouse? We certainly remember pain when someone we love hurts us. If the sex and the AP are so special why don't they go start a life together? Because It is FANTASY. Real life, marriage and relationships take effort and work the sex surely is the bonus of that.

Wintergarden

Cheaters start affairs because they are selfish, self-centered people with no integrity who think they can get away with it and it makes them feel high for a while.

You don't understand this type of thinking because you are not a selfish, self-centered person with no integrity who needs to get high for a while.

Also, cheaters are enticed by affair because they feel miserable without the affair. They need the affair to feel good because they are broken people. You dont understand this type of thinking because you are not a broken person.

Non-alcoholics don't understand alcoholics because non-alcoholics can tolerate sobriety. Alcoholics cannot tolerate sobriety so they drink.

Alcoholism or drug addiction and affairs have a lot in common: broken people trying to escape reality which they cannot tolerate.

I said to wh it must've been great at the time. He recalls lying while ow was down there satisfying him and he recalls seeing out the window and wondering what the hell? It was detailed and he can recall things in the room and the view from the window. It shows his mind was not enjoying that wonderful experience....he said there was always something at the back of your mind. Will her bf return home. Did anyone see you. Need to leave at different times. Then theres the midn bending the compsrtmentalising started taking place before the act was even finished in some cases. Then when you've got away with it and everything is fine you recall it with tinted glasses. You forget those nagging thoughts or stomach churning moments you remember the thrill before pursuing it and after of getting away with it. You forget the other stuff because it doesnt feel good and doesnt fit with the idea of what you're doing and the more you do it the easier it can be to ignore or quickly dismiss these issues and negatives. It's easier to justify the more times you tell yourself the same nonsense. But the knowing what you are doing is wrong is there. It doesnt go away the elephant in the room is impacting. And when you recall it positively it's easy to forget. Once you have consequence and remorse it's hard to remember anything but the elephant.

If the A and A sex was so amazing they wouldve left for it. It's simply not the fantasy they hope it to be

My main point is this: remorse will completely change the wayward's perspective of the sex with their AP after they become remorseful because it will be seen in the light of truth. This truth combined with years of remorse and making amends for their terrible behavior can make for an awesome marriage.

I had personal experience with something similar to this. Way back in high school I had a GF for a couple of years. We had a lot of sex. I was her first sexual partner. She was highly sexual. She initiated a lot, experimented in every way she could imagine (or trying stuff she learned from older sisters). Told me repeatedly how much she loved the sex. Wrote me cards extolling on how much she enjoyed the last sexual encounter, or anticipating the next.

We went off to college and went our separate ways. Several years later I happened to bump into her. She had become extremely religious, and she was very upset with me because most of the men she knew who shared her hardcore religious views would not marry her because she was not a virgin. She told me that what I "made" her do was awful, she regretted it immensely, and wished we had never met. She made it clear that I was not to speak with her again.

You wouldn't feel bad about using someone or destroying your marriage? Those are a couple reasons 'affair' sex has zero appeal to me.

Of course I would. It's a big part of the reason I never wanted the lifestyle my friends have, when I got married, it meant what I think most people see "married" as, no more sex with other people. So, yes, I'd feel bad about using someone and destroying my marriage, no doubt about it.

But, and this is probably the compartmentalization in me, that doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy the sex. And I speak from some level of experience, I've had sex that had all kinds of negative consequences. Wish I hadn't done a lot of it. But, for me to say it wasn't enjoyable? That would be a bold faced lie. What would be a MUCH more accurate statement was "It wasn't worth it". All the game playing, hurting other people, lying.. It really wasn't worth the few minutes of sex. But the sex itself? As I said before, some of it good, some very good, some spectacular. But even the "spectacular", if I look at it through the lens of "would the fallout be worth it" the answer is clearly "no, it would not be". The cost/benefit analysis isn't there, NOT because I don't think the "benefit" would be good, I'm sure it would be very, very good. But the cost is far too high, and, of course, I made a promise that regardless the cost, I wouldn't do it.

If the A and A sex was so amazing they wouldve left for it. It's simply not the fantasy they hope it to be

I wish it was that simple. I don't think it is. The "cost/benefit" analysis for a romantic affair is far more complicated. Sex could be amazing, but your H/W makes tons of money and the lifestyle change wouldn't make up for the sex. Or you have kids who's life you would rip apart (a common theme here). I'm 100% sure the sex can be very good/amazing and the WS not leave. It's a story I've heard too many times to not believe. However, that said, would the sex still be that good if the WS did leave? Or if they started having sex regularly? No, I don't think it would be, and, in a lot of ways, this explains serial cheaters to me. They are chasing the next "new sex experience" that, no matter how skilled the current partner, can only be delivered by someone else.

Boiling down most of the affairs I know of personally, "Sex was amazing", but, if you follow it with the question, "Good for you, when are you leaving your wife" those guys would laugh in your face. So, I don't feel like one, honestly, even impacts the other significantly. You (or I anyway) can have amazing sex with someone you can hardly stand, doesn't mean I want to live with them or marry them, or frankly, even want to talk to them again if it's not to schedule sex. But it also doesn't mean that the sex wasn't great.

I told him he paid alright - with his integrity, with his morals, with his character, with his marriage and family, with his self-respect and self-esteem. He certainly did pay for it.

He paid the AP with his words. She didn't want his morals, character, integrity or anything else. She wanted his words. All of those things you mention, yes, were lost as a part of the A, but that wasn't payment, it was collateral damage.

I have a neighbourhood cat that turns up when it suits him. He cries for food and affection which I supply then put him back out of the door as he's not mine. If i wanted another cat I'd go out and get one for myself. Sounds similar to AP expectations .....

Thank you wintergarden

It feels good to hear your words.

I’ll take comfy sex over fantasy any day....never mind the nuclear bomb of cheating.

Hopefully this is not too off topic.

I did a bucket load of dating last year (as a single person in my 50’s). I’ve been blown away at how many men want sex ASAP. To me, it’s empty sex. You don’t even know each other but hell let’s screw each other.

I started to rule out guys for causal sex ....met men not so interested in that. They told me woman were bombarding them for causal sex. Sex on first and second dates.

I’m realizing our society has placed so much emphasis on this exciting sex. Easy sex. That there’s nothing to lose to have sex with that person.

There’s little value given to actually spiritual connecting with someone who know you well. Can connect in a way that’s so much more then an instant chemistry.

Add in cheating ..... and it’s an empty world with lying and cheating. Just can’t wrap my brain around in how WS would be interested.

For many woman, the best sex she will ever have is with someone who knows her body well. Who has had a lot of practice with her.

This is something that I struggle with in my relationship with my WW. Her A with AP1 went on for many years, on-and-off. They had the time to get to know each other, how to please each other, just like a married couple – just like with me.

If the sex and the AP are so special why don't they go start a life together?

My WW admitted to me that she did love AP1. When I asked why she didn’t get a D from me and marry him, she said that maybe she should have. She didn’t at the time because he was engaged and she only had 3 months to work with. She didn’t think she could “pull it off” in that short amount of time. From this I hear, “I wish I would have left you, I wish I could have married AP1, but since I couldn’t have him, I’ll settle for you for stability, but continue to pursue other men, because you are not enough for me.”

My BS mind keeps thinking that if sex with me was better than with others, why did she keep finding new suitors and going back to AP1? I believe there must be some truth in, “Sex with anybody else is better than sex with you.” I don’t think this is in reference to the physical act, but to the psychological and emotional aspects.

Ridwitout you're a little flawed in taking what a lying cheat says at face value without thinking of his motive..."Its amazing" now theres two things going on here I'd take a punt one is hes showing off this is likely part of his need...to be validated with these other guys...his ego needs the boost and its furthered by its bragging. He would feel less achievement to say oh I banged a bird it was a bit iffy. Nope doesn't fit their desired outcome and what they are pursuing try again. Oh I had average enjoyable but not mind blowing sex. Hmm lukewarm. Hes bragging to you and or other friends this is not going to hit the mark is it? He needs to justify his risks and behaviour by selling the desired out come...on9dy brags and sums it up with it was alright....so I had amazing sex with a stunning girl....BINGO...it reinforces the behaviour in his mind and it ticks the ego box with you or wheoever his target audience was. In addition like I said its retrospectively in hindsight when he can discard anything negative. Humans in nature tend to recall the good and forget the inane or bad. So at that moment when he has to positively reinforce what he thinks or actually wants hes recalling the good in all its glory pumped up and anything that doesnt suit that is totally downplayed or forgotten.

I'm not sure why it's not occurred to you cheaters tend to be liars in most aspects of their lives not just to have an affair or cheat but to live with those actions too. The woman tells herself he loves her despite knowing deep down he doesnt she still tells and retells this lie. Why wouldn't the man do similar depending on his motives? The man tells himself it's worth it and as he feels in someway it validates him...that's easier to believe when you big up the event. Hot sex makes you feel more desired than something awkward or disjointed. Hes alpha make almost. If the sex isnt that great then isnt that partly his fault? Someone in that mindset wouldn't allow their perception of it to be average. They will ignore what doesnt suit and grasp what does...I'm sure the excitement chase and thrill makes you desired so focus on that. I'm sure on a cellular level sticking your penis in and out enough hits those notes. Concentrate on that. But the fact it was disappointing and over rated....well that would take too much introspection and its takes alot of grooming yourself to be capable of such self deceit it's unlikely you will willingly arrive at that conclusion on a whim....

As for if it was that amazing...yes it is as simple as that. Ultimately the A and the A sex is never worth it. Why? All the reasons you list is not good enough reason to stop them cheating so why is it good enough reason to stay? Because the payback is not even as real as the recollection in their minds. Humans have a distorted perception and recall. No matter how great it seems when they have to look at it in the light of day it rarely stands up to scrutiny. Hence why remorse is often found and the whole recollection is changed. And although the cost e.g marriage family is downplayed to allow the A and usually when looked at under scrutiny holds more value than they allowed themselves to believe during A that's even with the "fog" or whatever rewriting of history which has occured. If the A was real and it all was amazing as they want to believe then the cost would remain heavy and undervalued while the A would remain elevated and the cost would be worth the payback. It rarely stays in that balance.

Beachwalker,

For many woman, the best sex she will ever have is with someone who knows her body well. Who has had a lot of practice with her.

This is something that I struggle with in my relationship with my WW. Her A with AP1 went on for many years, on-and-off. They had the time to get to know each other, how to please each other, just like a married couple – just like with me

I am so sorry. And, when I wrote it I thought of LTA's - I will say even those sometimes have more quick meet-ups than the longer sessions that allow for the types of practicing I am talking about.

But, Again, this was in context of saying, for some it might be really good, and for others not so much. Affair sex can be any range of enjoyable just like any other sex you have in your life. There are many who believe it HAS to be the best. But, I think that there is much higher of a range than that.

Anyway, I am sorry, I wasn't trying to be dismissive or insensitive of anyone else's situation.

Ride it out:

I've had sex that had all kinds of negative consequences. Wish I hadn't done a lot of it. But, for me to say it wasn't enjoyable? That would be a bold faced lie.

I can see this in two perspectives. The first one I had was "but negative consequences is different than the types of consequences that would happen in losing a long term marriage with someone that you realize that you don't want to lose."

I had a divorce once, I don't regret it, there were a lot of things there that would have changed the course of my life for the worse. I got out before it had the chance to do that. But, the fact that I thought I wanted a divorce this time really astounds me today. The entire trajectory of our marriage has given me the exact life I wanted. It helped me grow, there are things I do career-wise that I would not have achieved, I wouldn't have the children I do now, and while no relationship is perfect - my husband is truly perfect for me in every way. I am appalled that I forgot that for any length of time and that I didn't have the moral fortitude to honor my vows. Instead, I stooped very low to try and prop myself up - I gave up my integrity, I brought such pain to a man who has been nothing but good to me. My husband has had to pay the price for all that and stayed. This is the type of man that I betrayed. When you say you had negative conquences for your sexual exploits before you were married - there is no level in which you compare can those to in having an affair. It's not even in the same ball field.

The second perspective I see it in is you can't erase pleasure either. I am certain that you enjoyed those exploits at the time. I will never say I didn't enjoy the sex at the time or the affair wasn't exciting. I would say I enjoyed more the attention of the sex rather than the act and I know that is different for you. But, it's so sickening to me now that I don't look back on it with any enjoyment which is also different than your statement. But, I think the difference was the offense and consequences were worse, more far reaching. I mean, after all you were a single guy, and they were single women, so they might regret they slept with you now or you regret you slept with them...that's not remorse. That's regret. The emotions behind those two things are so very different.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:54 PM, September 30th (Monday)]

Of course this is impossible to know because she could be lying or minimizing even if she was remorseful and sober

I think this is pretty much always the case. A WS, if the have any hope of reconciliation would never in their right mind admit the sex was better. You get different, new, exciting, even for men that he was bigger. But better? Almost never

My EX had porno sex with a guy much younger and in better shape. I got all the details. I never got her to admit she liked it better. I’m sure at the beginning she loved the newness, but after a while I now get she tired of it. For me, it really didn’t matter if it were better. It happened and that was the issue. I remember even telling her that I hoped it was great so at least she broke up a 25 year marriage for something.

I do 100% believe she now looks at the sex with disgust. When we finally got to the point where I could discuss it in a rational way, when the topic of the sex came up she got physically ill. I think for many that is key for reconciliation, although in my case too much damage had been done

I think you have a healthy outlook on this. Her alcoholism, though never an excuse, give you a branch to hold onto as a reason. The best I got was a MLC.

She is lucky to have you and my guess the prognosis for you guys is pretty good

The second perspective I see it in is you can't erase pleasure either. I am certain that you enjoyed those exploits at the time.

That would be a fair statement.

I will never say I didn't enjoy the sex at the time or the affair wasn't exciting. I would say I enjoyed more the attention of the sex rather than the act and I know that is different for you.

Hey, you don't get to speak for me! I'm my own man, have my own thoughts, and.. Yeah, OK, you're right.

But, it's so sickening to me now that I don't look back on it with any enjoyment which is also different than your statement. But, I think the difference was the offense and consequences were worse, more far reaching. I mean, after all you were a single guy, and they were single women, so they might regret they slept with you now or you regret you slept with them...that's not remorse. That's regret. The emotions behind those two things are so very different.

And perhaps that's it. It's the consequences that change the subjective experience. And, to be fair, most of the serials I know have pretty limited consequences, so, that could color the conversation as well. It's "not as bad" for them, so they don't lose the "new sex shine" and look back on it as a happy memory.

I will say though, I've suffered some pretty awful consequences as a result of sex (or sexual desire, more correctly). I was a hairs breath from death once as a result of sexual desire (it's a long story, and not at all kinky, just doing stupid stuff to try to get laid). Do I regret doing the thing that almost killed me?? OMG, do I ever. But do I look back on the sex I had with that person negatively? No, I don't. I look back on it fondly, and think to myself "man, you were an idiot for pushing it that far". But, to be fair, nobody but me was hurt in that particular example, I suspect the situation would be different if I'd hurt someone I loved in my efforts to have sex that day, so that's a fair point. It was only me who was hurt, and I felt like I bore the consequences for my actions alone.

createaccount197, I did not miss the difference.

I believe that you did not get my point.

apple pie.

you saw it wanted so bad.

it was not your pie to take but you did any way.

it was the best pie you ever had.

you got caught eating it, and the cost of that

pie you paid in the form of consequences was so

expensive, that even though you never had a pie as

good as that one it was not worth the price.

However it was still the best pie/sex you ever had

you got caught eating it, and the cost of that pie you paid in the form of consequences was so expensive, that even though you never had a pie as good as that one it was not worth the price.

Neatly stated, and, personally, one of my own biggest fears.

Ride it out-Yes, I don’t think you can have remorse for hurting yourself. Remorse to me by definition is that it’s a deep

Understanding of what you did to someone else. Regret or guilt is how we feel about something we have done - it’s about us.

Even in butforthegraces example - that’s not remorse either. That’s rewriting history to fit a narrative of who you are now. She got religion on so she rewrote history to where she was blameless. Most people who are religious still would own the sin and ask God for forgiveness. But she was pushing a selfish viewpoint and blaming him. That’s really not remorse either

To me - I am not rewriting history on the sex. I planned it, I participated willingly. And at the time it’s what I wanted to do. But I loathe that decision. I own every cut that I made on my husband for my own selfish behaviors. I understand what it did to him. And you can’t look at that and still see any good in it. I also feel regret for not upholding my integrity, promises, and vows. I regret not analyzing myself or getting help sooner. I regret willfully deciding to do what I did. If regret was all I had it probably still might shade the sex as regrettable and still color it differently. Remorse makes it like he was in the room. Very hard to describe but when you can see it through the lens of the person that you love them you see it in the same level of disgust as they do. Honestly, I don’t know if someone can get to the place of remorse without confessing or being caught. I can’t say the with certainty but I do not understand how they can see it through that lens without having to admit every detail out loud. It filters it and changes it so much. I believe they can feel shame, but until it gets filtered through the spouses viewpoint I just don’t know if it’s the same. That may be why you don’t see this out of some of your work cohorts.

Anyway, those are some of the thoughts I have about remorse.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:05 PM, September 30th (Monday)]