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^^^ So sorry. Not trying to spread any false info. Sorry, Dan.

A note on OHIO in the name ... but it's unnecessray, so I have edited this post.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:43 AM, October 6th (Sunday)]

Beachwalker,

I have the same struggle. My WS says it was just sex, missionary style sex and that the AP never orgasmed.... He went back for more when we were having what I thought was really good sex. I am the adventurous one and always seeking new ways. He is basically a missionary style, in and out quickly guy yet he will try to hold on to give me time to orgasm....

Anyway, I felt that sex was spiritual and special because it was only us. It isn’t special any longer. It is just sex and a way to pro-create and I feel no reason to have it with him any longer. I can’t have it without picturing them so why torture myself. There is no intimacy or spiritual connection because I will never believe he has been honest and shared everything. He is still a coward.

I wonder if I were in another relationship with someone who valued what I value if the feelings I had about sex before his stupid A would come back and I couod enjoy it again.

I hate all of this! It just makes me so sad and so much more angry at him for what he did to me!

Remorse does not change the facts.

If I am on a diet but I am tempted by a chocolate cake and then I eat the cake and enjoy eating every last bite and think it is the best chocolate cake I have eaten, I can still feel remorse when I realize I have totally screwed up my diet and I will have to work extra hard to get back into ketosis. It doesn’t change my memory that that cake was amazing. I probably wouldn’t sacrifice again for it but I know that I enjoyed it at that time.

It doesn’t change my memory that that cake was amazing.

Exactly. And to extend you analogy, you could also break your diet to eat 15 year old Tastycakes you find the back of your closet. And while they'd probably taste good, looking at them without the "forbidden fruit" lens, you probably wouldn't think twice about them. While they tasted good at the time, they were, in fact, just pre-packaged crap that, if you'd been eating sugar, you probably would have passed up for just about anything else. It wasn't that Tastycakes are so great, it was the "forbidden" of the Tastycake that made something quite average taste good at that particular moment.

I think most female affairs fall into the "Tastycake" category. Good at the time, but can be recognized as "nothing special" with a little reflection. Male affairs.. I really don't know as well, a lot of the guys I know are having sex that their wife wouldn't have with them in affairs. Acting out fantasy, doing things they've never done before (sexually). They certainly describe the sex as the "best cake ever" even after the affair ends. So.. I don't know.

However, gender aside, this is the fundamental question. Was is "the best cake ever" or was it a Tastycake? I'm not sure any of us will ever know. Law of large numbers tells us that, without question, both groups exist. There certainly exists some fraction of cheaters who had the best sex of their lives in an A, and another fraction of cheaters who had the worst sex of their lives in an A. I'd bet my life that both those statements are true. But, thing is, how to know? And, before anyone says it, yes, it does matter, at least to me, if my W is thinking to herself after we sleep together, "Not bad, but man, he's got a long way to go to top the AP". That simply will/would not work for me as a basis for R. I don't care how much you might regret it now, as you said, you know that was the "best cake you've ever had" and while you might now know it wasn't worth the price paid, I don't want to spend the time and effort to make "cakes" all the time to just have to simile, act like you like it, and think "man, if only this was that one cake".

If I am on a diet but I am tempted by a chocolate cake and then I eat the cake and enjoy eating every last bite and think it is the best chocolate cake I have eaten

Not true. Unless the affair sex is the only sex and there has been no more and no consequence? Then you might remember.

Two months after you eat the cake, you find out someone spit in it that day back when. Since you've had lots of other chocolate cake since then, you are grossed out. You literally forget about that piece of cake, because yuck! Nasty!

I think it is obvious when a BS posts what they "know" because it shows how much they don't. You cannot say on Monday, "I'll never understand a WS because I'm not a nasty cheater!" and then on Tuesday, "I know because I know!" Nope. You don't know. You are entitled to a belief, but you'll never know--it's just your opinion or guess. You have to have been a nasty ass vile human like me to know the truth on this.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:05 PM, October 6th (Sunday)]

Two months after you eat the cake, you find out someone spit in it that day back when. Since you've had lots of other chocolate cake since then, you are grossed out. You literally forget about that piece of cake, because yuck! Nasty!

Which would make sense, except for the fact that the majority of cheaters know, going into it, they are heading into the "All spit in cakes, all the time" store. Every cake in there is spit in (married APs). So, finding out after the fact "wow, someone spit in the cake that was so good" well.. You can (not you personally) claim blind innocence, but it's right on the sign heading into the store (or part and parcel of the vast majority of affairs). The only person unaware they are eating spit in cake (2nd hand) is the BS. The WS and the AP are well aware that they are eating cake that's been adulterated (see what I did there).

One of the real "eye openers" (again, HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW THIS) for my W was that the AP (claimed "sexless marriage") was lying. I know, everyone here is beyond shocked, but, yes, he was having plenty of sex, often in the morning before work (per his BW). The look on her face during that call (my WW) was priceless. Yes, you always gave him a BJ, think about what that means. HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW?? Think about me/us! We do that too, we have sex after I get ready for work and then I put on my suit and walk out the door. Why would you think they are any different? Oh, yeah, because he "told you" otherwise. Closing back the analogy, you're in the "spit in cake store" moron, EVERY CAKE in here has spit in it. Just because the cashier says "I don't like spit" in no way alters the mechanics of an affair. This is what it is, you're signing up for "sex on the side" which indicates there's also a "sex main dish".

Boggles the mind how people can so blind themselves to the reality of what they are doing. If you don't care, that's one thing, but if you claim this was because "he/she loved me".. Well, I'm sorry to say this, but this is one of those "need you head examined" moments. It's like an adult going to the North Pole (in NY) and expecting to really meet "Santa", a fat guy who delivers packages to every family in the world in one evening without anyone noticing. Sure, I suspect some adults do still believe that, but, they are living in a fantasy world.

RIO, not every WS has sex with a married AP.

RIO, not every WS has sex with a married AP.

That's true, and if you're a WS having sex with a single guy/girl, then, yes, you MAY not have an expectation of "spit cake". Your partner, however, should have that expectation. And they aren't even in the cake store, they are just having sex with a girlfriend/boyfriend, they're not eating the "forbidden fruit", only married AP's are doing that.

yes the ww after d day looking back can now say

I was wrong that cake was nothing special.

the thrill of getting extra free cake made me

falsely get over excited allowing me to proclaim

how good that tasty cake was.

Believable.

the thrill of getting extra cake from the om did not

cloud my judgment it was the best cake I ever had.

After D day I regret eating the best cake I ever

had because the price paid will never make any cake

worth paying that price. Notice her regret that

she says the cake was not worth eating, does not

diminish the fact that the sex was with the om

was the best ever.

not believable when the ww tries sell us that the

great sex was now bad because she regrets the

damage her banging the om did.

problem is how does a ww get us to believe that

the sex was bad, or that the ww did not do

things for the om that she has refused to do for

her bh?

because as the ww cries she tells us she is not

lying now?

[This message edited by oldtruck at 6:56 PM, October 6th (Sunday)]

Notice her regret that she says the cake was not worth eating, does not diminish the fact that the sex was with the om was the best ever.

Which is really the crux of the problem. The lens of regret or remorse can certainly get you to the point where you think "NOT worth it", but, at least in my experience, that can be the case simultaneously with "was the best ever". I've done a lot of "not worth it" (in hindsight) things that were incredible at the time, sexual, personal, taking risks, sports. Lots of things, however, I doubt my W is jealous of my skydiving, one of the things I'd put into the "not worth it" category (and, if she wanted to do it together, I'd do it, because while for me it was not worth it, maybe it would be for her).

not believable when the ww tries sell us that the great sex was now bad because she regrets the damage her banging the om did.

problem is how does a ww get us to believe that

the sex was bad, or that the ww did not do things for the om that she has refused to do for her bh?

No, I don't think that's believable either. At least for me, my memories don't work that way. I have a memory of the good experience and a memory of the consequences. They are independent memories, I've done things that felt wonderful at the time but had awful consequences. NOT worth it. But I still remember how amazing they felt and the experience was, I just won't repeat it because the consequences were so severe.

To your last stanza (sorry, I always read your posts as poetry because of formatting); that's a whole different ball of wax. I do think, in some significant amount of cases, sex with the OM wasn't "best ever". There are a lot of things that a man can do wrong in bed, premature ejaculation being high on that list for affairs, but a whole litany of things/requirements and individual knowledge that an OM would need to have to possibly get into "best ever" category. Now, when you bring in the "did it with AP but not BS" well, in some ways, that's "putting your finger on the scale". Doing more with the AP gives him/her an unfair advantage to make sex better. And perhaps that's why we see that behavior sometimes, yes, the AP is small and has ED, but, if I let him go down on me (and not my H) well, then I can still have "best ever" sex..

And, even with that, the danger of the A, the time apart, the illicit nature of the relationship, the sex in public (commonly), the endless buildup and pining, I do think that there are a significant fraction of female AP's who really don't have "great" (or best ever) sex in their affairs. I have trouble believing the same for men, or, myself personally, all the elements of an A, coupled with the typical acts performed in an A, there's so much "finger on the scale" for me that the woman simply needs to show up and not fall asleep for it to hit "great sex" on my scale. And I think that's part of the male/female divide here, imagining myself in that situation, it's hard to see how the sex couldn't be amazing (and lots of men have reported exactly that to me, amazing sex in an A), but, I really don't think it's nearly as universally true for women. But how do you (as a BS) believe it? Even if only some small percentage of APs have this great sex, there is SOME portion who do. But because it's such a non-starter for R, nearly all will lie about it to the BS. So you really have no idea what you're dealing with, was it amazing but a horrible mistake, or was it awful and also a horrible mistake? I do think it matters, if something is "amazing" but has significant negative consequences you are more likely to be drawn to that thing/do it again. If something sucks and has terrible consequences, well.. For me, it seems that it would be much, much easier to not do that thing again.

I dont know why it has to be such a polar opposite from crap to best ever? I'm certain most lie on the spectrum in between.

Sometimes the thrill is at the time it seems like the best idea.

How many things have you done you thought would be great and hindsight after didnt live up to their hype? You spent loads of time planning it and build up and in the moment probably threw yourself into it in order to salvage the time spent trying to achieve it. And this is a normal every day experience not one shrouded in broken issues you're trying to fix yourself with. Was it the best thing in the world? No. But you spent so much god time energy risk and time building up to it you made it the best it could be. If someone asked you after your prob say hell yeah was great. Or nah didnt live up to my expectation so next time I might try x y or z. If it wasnt the best thing in the world then it wasnt from lack of trying to make it and thats the crux. Your husband or wife had amazing sex or had shitty sex it really doesnt matter they fed it enough it could have been and they probably wanted it to be.

Personally I think amazing sex for both parties would change the game. I think for different thrills and reasons different elements might be amazing or fun but I think its rarely the best ever overall because of so many influencing factors.

I think women in particular will romanticize it afterwards to make it easier to digest so recall it more positively and men recollection is more positive so they can use it as turn on material.

I think post dday that's what changes, not the event itself but how their perceive it.

But like I said what the fuck does it matter if it wasnt the best ever it wasnt from lack of trying or hoping it would be. And if it was the best ever it was on a bed of lies so if that's what gets them off then they are far beyond broken.

Now jeez where is this cake everyone is talking about pregnant lady here needs some! No spit cake thanks

Boggles the mind how people can so blind themselves to the reality of what they are doing. If you don't care, that's one thing, but if you claim this was because "he/she loved me".

I think it's because it's both at once. To have an affair, you have become callous in some way. I didn't care about much when my A started. I was completely numb. The AP flirted, and it felt good, I had felt so lousy for so long that I wanted more of that. It's easy to think something is special if you have been emotionally barren and something sparks a feeling in you. It's misinterpreted totally. It's not the person, it's the rebellion of it, the illicitness of it, the high of it. I now look back and have no idea what I was thinking when I now can objectively "see" the AP. But, in reality at the time, who or what the AP was played no importance to me whatsoever. It was the affair feelings that gave him any importance. And the affair feelings wouldn't have been there in the first place had I not mismanaged my life to the point I was in an emotional exhaustion that caused me to be numb.

You always keep putting this logical hat on, you can't be logical while being an escapist. Those two things don't coexist. I can understand why you would be angry that your wife didn't show any logic in her affair and it caused you great pain that she didn't. A shred of rational thinking would have stopped it in it's tracks. But, you examine it with a logic she didn't use - she had a crisis in which she had no coping skills to deal with and things were distorted for her. I know I have told you this a million times, but I thought I would try a million and one.

You don't know. You are entitled to a belief, but you'll never know--it's just your opinion or guess.

Thank you for that. It's something that needs to be remembered by all of us. Sometimes we do know, but too often people argue as if their opinions are facts, even though they have no reliable proof.

It is not that people have opinions that don't line up with mine that bothers me, it's that a BS jumping in to explain a WS--contradicting what actual WS are saying in the very same thread-feels completely condescending and insulting, not to mention false.

Why exactly would a BS consider themselves more knowledgeable than a responding WS? And why insist on contradicting?

I feel as if I speak my exact thinking, hoping to help a BS somewhere understand, just to be told by another BS, "It wasn't like that." Excuse me???? You may not contradict MY truth with your outright lies and manipulations, RIO.

You may not contradict MY truth with your outright lies and manipulations, RIO.

Care to elaborate on that?

Why exactly would a BS consider themselves more knowledgeable than a responding WS? And why insist on contradicting?

Because we have no incentive to lie. My married "bro crew" has no particular reason to lie to me either. My wife has a tremendous reason to lie, in fact, I'd say it's near impossible to tell the truth in many situations where the WS wants to stay married (which includes this, "Was the sex better" as well as other important questions "If they left their spouse, would you have left me to be with them", "Did/do you love him/her more than me", etc, etc). And I'd say, even here, a WS coming here and saying "best sex ever, but I really want to save my marriage" would have a real rough time of it too. Our "social norm" here is what it is, and this kind of thing would just be very outside that norm and present a WS a lot of trouble trying to get help who made that statement.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 11:29 AM, October 7th (Monday)]

You always keep putting this logical hat on, you can't be logical while being an escapist.

I agree with this. There is nothing logical about indulging in fantasy. Logical thinking is like kryptonite to compartmentalization. The fog only exists when you are looking through blinders.

I've said this a number of times, but affairs require a willful suspension of disbelief to receive value. You not going to watch a movie like Star Wars and enjoy it by viewing it through the lens of an astrophysicist.

There is nothing "big picture" about two people having an affair. It lives moment to moment. It is two people chasing this fleeting feeling that doesn't actually exist. So there is nothing but the present and whatever it takes to keep the curtain drawn lest the illusion of the Great and Powerful Oz be revealed as just a munchkin pulling levers and strings behind a curtain.

I find a lot of room for interpretation in the unvalidated perception from BSs that A sex was amazing. Easy to see why that would be the case because as always, we’re dealing with liars. So even if there’s a great degree of honesty I can see how the statement that “sex with AP paled in comparison” can appear incredible. I can especially believe it in understanding the emotions in the emasculation thread ongoing.

What’s important to remember about the liars we’re dealing with is this: We’re so good at lying we deceive ourselves at levels beyond conscious. So asking about why risk consequences for low payoff implies an awareness of consequences that I think can, fairly consistently, be acknowledged as not there.

Those familiar with CBT may recognize the cognitive distortion of “personalization” at work here. It’s a tough task to recognize because, for the sane faithful partner, it’s difficult to imagine a level of self-absorption that can allow a cheater to miss the fact that cheating could hurt their partner. But that’s where cheaters live- At some point cracks begin to appear, and that’s where the rationalizations come into play. As such the sad reality is this isn’t something done to the BS. And that SUCKS that we as humans couldn’t see that. But that’s where this argument should be viewed in context of marginal to the question of where a cheater’s heart/loyalties belong after the fact- In the moment, subject to unrivaled degrees of self-deception.

***posting as a member***

My married "bro crew" has no particular reason to lie to me either.

Yes they do. Men boasting and bragging about sexual conquests real and imagined is as old as the dirt we all get buried in.

I don't believe anyone should base their conclusions about A sex from a handful of self-proclaimed champions of infidelity.

I spent six years in the USMC, 20-years a football coach, all my prior service friends of 40-years who are cops and fireman, I'm the eldest of three brothers and raised two sons -- I feel like I have a pretty good handle on locker talk.

Ninety percent male bragging locker room/water cooler talk is male fantasy bullshit.

It's the competitive factor where each guy has to be getting more or better than the dude next to him.

If your buds claim they all had 'great' sex while in an A, well, of fucking course they did.

Let's just go with as much about sex as we actually know.

Some of it is great, some of it pretty good and some moments of sex are absurd and some of it can be not so great.

I'm certain my wife experienced that entire spectrum during her A.

All that and five bucks gets me a cup of coffee.

To suggest it was all great and is something we poor bastard betrayed should envy is both not true and more important, isn't very productive to dwell on for years (whether you R or D).

There is nothing "big picture" about two people having an affair. It lives moment to moment. It is two people chasing this fleeting feeling that doesn't actually exist. So there is nothing but the present and whatever it takes to keep the curtain drawn lest the illusion of the Great and Powerful Oz be revealed as just a munchkin pulling levers and strings behind a curtain.

Yes, this very much is reflective of how I see the truth of my affair. So much so, you flinch at some of the shit you said, did, believed and try and explain today.

It's not hard for me to understand why a BS would try to find a way to explain it. I don't ever look at RIO as him taking away my truth, but that he doesn't have a lens or experience of someone who had an affair. More, he just simply adds logic to where there was none used. And, he has a lens of "what should one believe" - which is normal. I think it would be helpful if he didn't have some of the men he works with skewing the whole thing. They are lying to themselves and so he buys their lies because of projection of what he thinks he would be doing or feeling in an affair. Yet, he isn't the type of person to have one himself so he's just left with this knowledge/understanding gap.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:08 PM, October 7th (Monday)]