SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

From the start of our relationship, we were healthier and better individuals together than we were on our own. We brought out the best in each other.

Both of us thought our M was 'good to very good' when W's A started. Healthy? It was a mix of healthy and unhealthy. Part of the attraction between us was compatabilities between our respective nueroses, so it was a mix between 'healthy' and 'unhealthy'. On the whole, though, I think I'd call our M healthy.

But for me, by definition an A is a symptom of the WS's individual lack of emotional health, and it's possible, by my definition, for a relationship to be healthier than the individuals in it.

If your definition doesn't allow that, I can see why you say an M can't be healthy if one partner cheats.

it's possible, by my definition, for a relationship to be healthier than the individuals in it.

I disagree with this. Unhealthy people can't make healthy relationships. Maybe, relatively speaking, the M was healthier than something else. I still wouldn't say it was healthy if one partner did, or is, cheat(ing).

As to the original question, yes, I think a M can be better after infidelity. I mean, anything is possible, right? I don't think it's likely. The CS would have to put in a ton of psychological and emotional work and continue to work on himself for the rest of his life. I don't think most people, in general, are capable of that. Certainly, most CPs aren't. They cheat because they are so averse to that kind of introspection and change.

Can marriage actually be "better" after infidelity?

IMO it's impossible for a marriage to NOT be better after an affair.

Because unless the BS is crazy or just a flat-out idiot, the marriages that do NOT end up better after an affair END. It may take a few years, but end they do.

And the marriages that DO end up better after an affair? Well, how can anyone say that the affair wasn't at least part of the reason?

I'm sure there are many that would scream "No, no, no, no, no! It's NOT the affair that made the marriage better, it's the work the couple does afterwards that makes the marriage better."

But this makes no sense. The work would not have happened without the affair, so how can the affair NOT be credited?

You see it over and over on SI - "My marriage is WAY better after my spouses affair..."

So, how can anyone dispute the following statements?

Affairs can save good marriages and actually make them better

Affairs usually end bad marriages that otherwise would have wasted years of precious time that could have been spent finding a better spouse

[This message edited by cheatstroke at 2:57 PM, July 3rd (Friday)]

I've heard it said that infidelity kills the old marriage. In some cases the two people involved can build a new marriage but the old one is dead.

[This message edited by fooled13years at 10:42 AM, July 2nd (Thursday)]

The work would not have happened without the affair, so how can the affair NOT be credited?

Spouses work on M's that don't include infidelity. It is because there is a brokenness in one or both spouses that causes these symptoms. There are MANY issues that people have besides affairs that are devastating to the M.

I will NEVER say the A made my M better...because the A killed my M. I was DONE. My H set out on dday to fix himself...and I waited and watched. He found his WHYS...worked on becoming a better person...and I believe he is now a man I deserve .

I had put up with a lot from my H...but DISRESPECT was where I drew the line. If my H would have slapped me in the face for example...I would have had the same reaction I had on dday...and that was to tell him the M was over.

I had put up with a lot from my H...but DISRESPECT was where I drew the line. If my H would have slapped me in the face for example...I would have had the same reaction I had on dday...and that was to tell him the M was over.

I'm curious - would you have still have "waited and watched" until he fixed himself had he slapped you in the face?

I mentioned this to my husband once -- that it was the worst thing he could've done aside from physically harming me and his response was that he felt he had. I can see that my husband is trying and is remorseful, but I can't get the affair out of my mind. It bugs the shit out of me that I still love him and am trying to make it work given what he did. I think sometimes about how this likely isn't different than getting slapped in the face and I would've walked away immediately with no discussion.

I think that when an infidelity happens, it can either break a marriage, or you can be bonded after you work to fix it, like two people who have been in a traumatic accident but survived it together. I personally don't ever forget the trauma of it, so I don't see the marriage as "better than ever" BUT, I think we are stronger for having survived it because we realized we wanted to. So in that way, it's "better" than it was. That's not fairy tale romance, but I am pretty proud of the beauty for ashes that came from it. It was hard won.

I'm curious - would you have still have "waited and watched" until he fixed himself had he slapped you in the face?

Great point yowbw2019.

Infidelity is abuse.

At one point I told my wife if she wanted to hurt me, next time use a gun and shoot me rather than cheat. I absolutely would have preferred the physical pain to the emotional devastation.

That’s not an approval of domestic violence, just a reminder of how much pain is caused by betrayal.

Again, you’re fairly early in the healing process. It takes 2-5 years on average, regardless of the path you take next.

The next part for you is deciding whether rebuilding the relationship is worth your time and effort. Only you can find that answer.

When we consider your original question, part of the answer for getting to ‘better’ is BOTH partners going all in to make it happen.

I think you’re still trying to decide, which is totally normal.

Take your time.

Infidelity is always a dealbreaker, you don’t owe anyone another shot. If you can’t see a better relationship on the other side of this, or a better new deal, be done with it.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 11:53 AM, July 3rd (Friday)]

In my case it was after she stopped cheating, our relationship had gotten better. My relationship from the beginning wasn't healthy and I either ignored all the signs or fallen deeply into lust. There was infidelity before, the night before, and after we got married. It's been almost three years since she has stopped. It took a separation, some counseling, and a lot of self-reflection to get where we were. Would it have been easier if I walked away? Probably, but to answer the question. Yes, our marriage is better after infidelity.

The work would not have happened without the affair

This is simply not true. There is no way for anyone to know that. Was the A in many cases the impetus of the work? Yes. Did the M need an A for that work to happen? No.

Affairs can save good marriages and actually make them better

Affairs usually end bad marriages that otherwise would have wasted years of precious time that could have been spent finding a better spouse

I believe this and in my case it was the A's ended a bad M and opened my eyes to who my STBX really was. I myself have had to deal with looking at why I chose to allow abuse and this goes back to my childhood. What my STBX's A's did for me was help me locate and now try to heal a wound that allowed me to stay in this M so long.

Affairs can save good marriages and actually make them better

Good Ms don't need saving. Our M was fine. My W was the problem.

Affairs usually end bad marriages that otherwise would have wasted years of precious time that could have been spent finding a better spouse

Proof? There are too many presuppositions in the proposition to write about.

Affairs are about WSes' failures. Affairs impact BSes, and the impact Ms, but they are not caused by Ms.

Our M was fine. My W was the problem.

That's a bit of an oxymoron. Unless you can envision a marriage existing with only one person involved?

Affairs are about WSes' failures. Affairs impact BSes, and the impact Ms, but they are not caused by Ms.

But can a marriage be healthy between a broken person and a healthy person?

Marriages don't cause affairs - always thought that was a weird position to even consider. An affair is a decision by a person, led through a path of many other decisions and damage. But two people make a relationship. And I suspect, if you can, look carefully throughout the marriage before the affairs and during the affairs, there would be signs - ie. issues from both partners.

If recovery can be had. And once recovery comes far enough. The nature of the relationship changes (has to change) because both people are healthier and working together in the marriage (in theory). If the relatioship does not change; or the relationship changes for the worse - then there was no recovery of either person.

In the end, affair or not, a marriage is a marriage. It is constant conscious work to make and keep it healthy. I say "work" but when both partners are together it is - sublime.

Did the M need an A for that work to happen? No.

I agree. My point was, it was that work that needed the A for that work to happen.

The M did not need the A. The M did need the work. The work did need the A for the work to happen.

[This message edited by cheatstroke at 12:54 PM, July 4th (Saturday)]

But can a marriage be healthy between a broken person and a healthy person?

This.

I don't think so.

Ugh. This whole line of reasoning about As breaking "good" or "bad" marriages. Makes my head spin.

I thought I had a good or average M. I think most BSs would say the same prior to dday. When I apply this R for "good" M and D for otherwise and try to apply it to my M, all I can do is SMH. So, was my M "bad" during those first years, when WH was "only' having an EA (tho I'm still not sure I believe that was the case). Was It "bad" when trying to conceive (the time period during which his POSOW says they were having a PA) ? IOW, when one person chooses to lie during the course of an entire M, it cuts pretty hard to say it was always a "bad" M bc of those lies. Now, today, I look back on all of it as nothing more than a mirage. My WH still has his fond memories of all kinds of moments/periods when he felt happy (despite his secret sexual life). So, does that mean those periods were "bad" bc I now view them through the lens of his lies? Or "good" bc he views them through the lens of those moments in which his expert compartmentalization skills kept the M and the As separate?

Again, I'd say my M was "average". We certainly had some really tough spots - one of which began immediately after his EA turned PA (at least according to his timeline). I got some IC, made some accommodations, etc. I made those compromises for my M, my family, and bc I loved the person he projected to me. And I was generally happy in the M. Had he not been fucking someone else at that time - or at any time - I would have been absolutely content with the compromises I made more than a decade ago.... or any of the compromises for that matter.

The thing is, EVERY M has problems. Because it is comprised of two imperfect human beings.

Can a M be "good" if one person is a liar? Of course it can! It's based on a foundation that is shaky AF, but it can still feel good - to both parties. I presume this is why more As are about eating cake than exiting the M.

If there cannot be a such thing as a "good" M when one person is broken, it seems to me the number of "good Ms" is a VERY small %. Because most of us humans are broken in some form or another. I know a ton of folks with excellent Ms. And each and every one of them has some broken parts to them. They work on managing that broken, processing that broken, working together to accommodate that broken, etc.

Now, I DO believe that the kind of broken a human must be to have an A is serious. And I also believe that there are varying degrees... IOW, for someone to have an LTA is far more seriously broken than a ONS (I've experienced both). I, too, have broken parts that existed and played out looooonnnnnggg before dday... as did my WH (tho I had no idea the extent). We made it work.

So, I guess I disagree with the entire premise here. Maybe if I was dealing with a shorter A, I would feel differently.

And, there is something about the entire premise that does seem to hint at M blaming.....

So, does that mean those periods were "bad" bc I now view them through the lens of his lies?

I think we can have fond memories of things that happened during those times of the marriage, while it still being 'unhealthy'. Perhaps that word is better than 'bad'.

Now, I DO believe that the kind of broken a human must be to have an A is serious.

Exactly! It's a kind of brokenness that manifests itself through infidelity. Yes, I was very broken, too, but realized that and had been in IC for a long time. I didn't go out and cheat, and at times, I treated my H like shit, but it in no way excuses his A. The older he got with his brokenness and he didn't do anything to address it, the more dysfunctional he became until it led to cheating. We have to accept that cheaters choose to have an affair because they're broken and don't know what else to do. Other broken people choose other ways to cope with their brokenness. And yes, there are a lot of very broken people who do not choose to have affairs, but their brokenness manifests itself in other unhealthy ways.

And, there is something about the entire premise that does seem to hint at M blaming.....

I absolutely do NOT subscribe to blaming the marriage. The brokenness and unhealthiness of the cheating spouse was there before the cheating. Their shit caused the marriage to be unhealthy before any As. I believe anyone who cheats has been broken all their lives, to a serious extent. It just takes until they're an adult of whatever age to manifest it in cheating. I believe it manifests itself in other unhealthy ways until those no longer work, and cheating seems like a good way out of their pain. Now, some cheaters have no interest in self-reflection after they've devastated their spouses and families, and they will continue to act out, either by more cheating, or other ways. A good analogy is the dry drunk. They stop drinking, but live a miserable life because they haven't addressed the reason why they were drinking in the first place.

but it can still feel good - to both parties.

A lot of things feel good. The question whether it's a fantasy or a reality. Many times we prefer to live in a fantasy.

it seems to me the number of "good Ms" is a VERY small %. Because most of us humans are broken in some form or another.

According to the CDC around 37% of all marriages in the USA end in divorce. In fact, one of the contributing reasons for that number to have dropped is the fact that people stay single longer and tend not to get married as much.

In my opinion we're looking at it from the wrong perspective. I don't think marriages break because both people are broken/imperfect. I think (again, my opinion), there should be better marriage education in the culture. And far more emphasis on the meaning of marriage in terms of input and tools. And the availability and normalization of marriage and individual care.

That said, long-term affairs are different from one-night-stand and short-term affairs.

The M did not need the A. The M did need the work. The work did need the A for the work to happen.

It's a terrible price to pay for this work to happen. And it's not true for all affairs. Some people are just assholes.

My deepest regret about my affair isn't the affair itself. It's not going to IC 15 years before the affair. So I could actually be the person that I wanted to be in my whole marriage (and tried and failed and sometimes - rarely - succeeded). It's that I forced my wife and my family to pay this price for my own failings.

Can marriage actually be "better" after infidelity?

No. Because "better" and "worse" are meaningless terms here. A marriage is what the people who participate in it make it. It is not a thing on its own. The people can be better. And they can be better together or better separately. Up to them.

In my opinion we're looking at it from the wrong perspective. I don't think marriages break because both people are broken/imperfect. I think (again, my opinion), there should be better marriage education in the culture. And far more emphasis on the meaning of marriage in terms of input and tools. And the availability and normalization of marriage and individual care.

Oh man, the "broken person" stuff. We're all broken people. If I had an A today, I could give you a list of things 10 pages long that "broke me" and led me to have an A; FOO issues, my wife's behavior, stress at work, my dog was barking last Tuesday. We ALL have these reasons and are "broken" in some way or another. If you can't have a relationship with a "broken" person, we should all just hang it up and go home. My wife wasn't "broken" she was selfish, entitled, seduced by someone who was out for a new sexual adventure and unable to see through the bulls**t that is the "emotional part" of an A. She wasn't "broken", anymore than I was "broken" by discovery of her affair (a FAR worse offense than her, "I didn't think you loved me" bulls**t rationale for the affair) and suddenly had this great reason to go out and start seducing new women.

According to the CDC around 37% of all marriages in the USA end in divorce. In fact, one of the contributing reasons for that number to have dropped is the fact that people stay single longer and tend not to get married as much.

Yes, people are marrying less and later. Also, marriage is becoming rarer in socioeconomic groups that tend to have a lot of D, which also seems to be impacting the numbers.

To the original question, sure, a M can be better after an A than it was before. But I think that the real operative question is can a marriage be better after the A than it COULD have been without the A, to which I clearly say "No f**king way". The A can be a driver for change in a marriage, and those chance could make the marriage better for one or both people. But those changes do not REQUIRE the A to happen, they could have happened without an A, which would clearly be a better outcome.

I kind of think that my marriage, at least from my perspective, is "better" after the A. I lost a lot of things, a lot of trust and connection with my wife, but I gained things too, some of them very important to me. That's NOT to say I'm glad it happened or "it needed to happen" or any version of that at all, I was happy in my M before the A too, it's just that the A caused me to drop a hammer on some things that really bothered me in our relationship and "fix" them. It spurred me to action.

Was the A in many cases the impetus of the work? Yes. Did the M need an A for that work to happen? No.

Exactly, I agree entirely.

Can a M be "good" if one person is a liar? Of course it can! It's based on a foundation that is shaky AF, but it can still feel good - to both parties. I presume this is why more As are about eating cake than exiting the M.

Exactly. It all depends on what makes it good for you. If you value unvarnished truth and fidelity above all others, it's obviously not going to be "good" for you. If you value fun, good feelings and other things, it might be just fine. I know a lot of guys wives "look the other way" about affairs, I'm sure they would be MUCH happier if it didn't happen, but their marriages are "good" enough that almost none of them have divorced. There are apparently enough other "good" things in their marriage to make it worth sticking around for. IDK, wouldn't work for me, but seems to work for many of them.

The work did need the A for the work to happen.

I'm not following this. I think it's just another way of saying that the M needed an A to improve. The work that needed to be done did not need an A to get it done. What was needed was a person who asked for help, a person choosing to be vulnerable and honest.

I knew my M wasn't great. I was going to IC. I took my H with me as much as possible. I also asked friends and colleagues to talk to him. I thought his issues might have something to do with his numerous deployments and experiences in war zones and firefights.

My H refused to open up and be honest. He refused to examine himself. He had all the tools laid at his feet. He rejected them. He chose to deal with his problems by having an A. He had many other choices. His choice killed our M even though he's been doing work since. He killed my love for him. After 5 years, I don't think it will ever come back. He might be better, but our M isn't. It's different, not better.