SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Nekonamida, the anti-r/pro-r list is such an easy thing to do I wish I’d done it a long time ago. Just started a note on my phone doing it!

He thinks this site is toxic and that it's making me depressed and preventing me from moving on.

I think a lot of WS’s say this — my WW has said this — it’s totally horse shit. The amount of intellectual debate and deep sharing and dissent on this site is excellent. there’s no single viewpoint and if anything the site leans toward R. It’s just that expectations for R are high Here, and not of the rugsweeping variety.

People who advocate for R want a spiritual f’ing experience where two people come together and heal. I think it should be that or GTFO

That said there’s nothing wrong with taking a break once in awhile -but If your WH thinks these issues are going away bc you stop reading and posting on SI, then he’s smoking crack.

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:17 PM, July 18th (Saturday)]

You're fixing the wrong things.

Going through the same thing with my WW. What is so hard about doing the things we tell you will help? We're giving you the answers to the test and you are still failing miserably.

Regardless of whether you stay or go, the pain will remain with you always.

And here are two common patterns that lead to people staying married that I've seen here over the years:

2. (More common) WS has A. BS discovers. Regardless of what happens next, WS and BS stay together. The required work doesn't really get done. WS doesn't do their part and/or BS doesn't do their part. There are major issues, could be any number of things, from full-blown A behaviors to more mundane ongoing lying or simple lack of effort. There is no real R, but they remain "married." No one is really happy. This can go on indefinitely.

Rug sweeping the A. WS blame shifting. BS doing all the work and compromise to keep the family together for the children’s sake and WS refusing to D. WS continues with selfish behaviour. Lying and cheating continues and controlling the marriage. Divorce is inevitable when BS Eventually needs to break free, move on and start healing.

Thumos,

I think a lot of WS’s say this — my WW has said this — it’s totally horse shit. The amount of intellectual debate and deep sharing and dissent on this site is excellent. there’s no single viewpoint and if anything the site leans toward R.

Agreed. I think he's scared off a little by the subreddit of the same name. It's decidedly less R-leaning, and I think he thinks this site is a lot like that.

People who advocate for R want a spiritual f’ing experience where two people come together and heal.

This is exactly what I want. You're exactly right.

That said there’s nothing wrong with taking a break once in awhile -but If your WH thinks these issues are going away bc you stop reading and posting on SI, then he’s smoking crack.

Preach. And yeah, I probably do need to take a break. I'm in the obsessive thoughts cycle, and I am at the point where I'm pretty much refreshing this forum every five minutes. It's pathetic, but I feel like I'm frantically scrambling for answers.

We talked about it a little last night, and I suggested again that he talk to people in the wayward forum here. He said he didn't want to infringe on my outlet, but I told him I wasn't worried about that. We'll see if he does. He seemed more open to it this time.

He also for the first time told me he's looking for books on his own about all of this crap. Everything he's read so far has been read at my insistence. It's a little thing, but it feels like a semi-breakthrough.

tinlizzie,

Haha, ugh, you're right. Although, I haven't known what to tell him to do apart from IC and reading books. I like The1stWife's method of letting WSs figure this shit out for themselves.

They can go online and do research, read books, and figure this shit out just as well as we can. If they really want to R, they need to start taking initiative and show us.

nightmare01,

I hear that. It does seem like a lot of people who choose D are able to heal faster, but then again, I've never been there, so that might just all be in my head. I think part of the reason why I don't want to D is that I realize that it will be painful still, but without having someone there to comfort me and to distract me from the need to constantly look for answers.

I feel like if it's going to be painful either way, I may as well stay with someone I love and that I have a history with. Especially since the chances of being betrayed again by a new partner feels pretty high.

I shake my head sometimes. The cheater finds a million ways to carry on the affair all by themselves. But yet the cheater can not figure out how to repair the damage to the marriage.

I seriously believe the cheater hopes the betrayed spouse will just sweep this under the rug and the cheater faces no consequences.

IMO if you are smart enough to hide the affair you are smart enough to figure out how to make amends and repair the damage.

I guess cheaters don’t know his to google “how to repair a marriage after an affair”. That is beyond their capabilities

[This message edited by The1stWife at 10:55 AM, July 19th (Sunday)]

I'm a redditor and I completely agree that the vibe there is wayyyyy way different. He really should check out this site. I feel like the vibe on reddit is much more anonymous and you don't get the level of interaction and investment there like you do here, with posters who have been here for years and want to help new members. Reddit is for memes and adult content, not relationship repair

IMO if you are smart enough to hide the affair you are smart enough to figure out how to make amends and repair the damage.

Right! Got plenty of energy to sneak around and lie but none for reading a damn book???

A not one healing - D vs R

The memory of the pain may stay with you always. The pain itself you can process out of your body.

The process is the same whether you D or R. If you R with a WS who isn't fully committed, or if you stay with a WS who is unremorseful, IMO more pain is dumped on you every moment.

One does more in R. One heals and rebuilds a relationship. In D, one ends the relationship and frees oneself but is without a partner. (But you may be better off alone, if your WS is unremorseful or if you realize you don't want to spend the rest of your life with your WS, even if your WS is remorseful.)

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:05 PM, July 19th (Sunday)]

I think he's scared off a little by the subreddit of the same name. It's decidedly less R-leaning, and I think he thinks this site is a lot like that.

Even though you told him it is not? That's the frustration of trying to drag a partner through reconciliation--they are so totally 'lost' that they don't know what to do.....although solutions are all around them. You mentioned he seemed a little more open about it the other day. I would give him this piece of advice:

"WH, in spite of your doubts about SI, I feel strongly about it being a positive influence. THAT ALONE should make you want to investigate....if you are the least bit serious about my pain, and trying to salvage our relationship. I will warn you now to avoid going onto their Wayward Forum if you aren't strongly committed to our relationship. They will pull no punches, and tell you what is the TRUTH....not just what you want to hear."

And then go off and do something entirely different. Put the ball squarely in his court. Consider it one of the last efforts of YOU driving the reconciliation. Watch, and see if he has it in him to get real with himself.

He thinks this site is toxic and that it's making me depressed and preventing me from moving on.

I think he's scared off a little by the subreddit of the same name. It's decidedly less R-leaning, and I think he thinks this site is a lot like that.

I suggested again that he talk to people in the wayward forum here. He said he didn't want to infringe on my outlet

He's got a lot of convenient excuses. I'd start packing for a stay elsewhere to show him who is making the decisions in this marriage. Waywards don't hear words. But they sure as shit feel consequences.

I think EllieKMAS is dead on.

I think that rather than going in with the attitude of saving the marriage, that it's important to go into things looking at what is best for you as an individual. Take time and evaluate- what are your wants and needs, independent of your WS? If he was no longer there or not an option to stay married, what would you do with your life or want for yourself? What are your goals and dreams as an individual, and is staying in this relationship helping or hindering your personal growth?

We only get one life, and choosing how to spend our time is really important. You deserve happiness. You deserve to have your needs met and at least some of your wants. It's important to know who you are and what you want as an individual and not just part of a couple.

If you could go back in time, before this relationship, would you still get into it, knowing what will happen?

For reference, I didn't want to divorce my WS, but I didn't get the choice- he walked out on us. Five plus years later, I am glad that he did. No amount of financial security would be equal to the personal growth I've been able to achieve in my new marriage, where I have a husband who loves me, who puts my best interests at heart and genuinely wants me to be happy and succeed. I know that I could literally come downstairs tomorrow and say ANYTHING. I could tell him I want to learn to skydive. I could tell him that I want to train for a new career. Whatever it is, he would listen to me and find a way to be supportive- and if it was something that really wasn't a good idea for objective purposes, he'd find a way to suggest something else. He tells me to dream the dreams and he will build them for us- because he knows that I love him and want him to have what he wants, too. That's true love. And you deserve it, too.

As for percentages... they aren't really all that relevant anyway. What happens to your marriage is going to be the sum of what you and your WS genuinely invest in it, and how compatible you both are after all the changes that are taking place in each of you. There really is no way to predict that, because you don't know who either of you will be when it's all said and done. You've been damaged and it will change you, and if he doesn't invest in his personal growth, you're going to wind up back here again like so many others. So how can you predict whether a relationship involving two people you haven't really met yet is going to work? Like anything else, you have to let go out of the outcome and just do the best you can. If he isn't prepared to do that, then the percentage is going to be zero.

[This message edited by PSTI at 5:56 PM, July 19th (Sunday)]

I think part of the reason why I don't want to D is that I realize that it will be painful still, but without having someone there to comfort me and to distract me from the need to constantly look for answers.

I feel like if it's going to be painful either way, I may as well stay with someone I love and that I have a history with. Especially since the chances of being betrayed again by a new partner feels pretty high.

Don't you want to be able to stand on your own two feet? To be able to be there for yourself? You're a strong woman even if you don't feel that way right now. You can take care of yourself. No matter what path you take, you WILL be happy again in the future because you will make it so. That doesn't mean I'm saying leave- you can stand on your own feet being with someone- but being self-reliant is really going to help you weather storms.

Getting comfort from the person who caused your pain feels like pretty weak comfort.

[This message edited by PSTI at 7:35 PM, July 19th (Sunday)]

Slight t/j here:

I have a husband who loves me, who puts my best interests at heart and genuinely wants me to be happy and succeed. I know that I could literally come downstairs tomorrow and say ANYTHING. I could tell him I want to learn to skydive. I could tell him that I want to train for a new career. Whatever it is, he would listen to me and find a way to be supportive

some of us always had that kind of support from our WS. I sure did/do.

My point is that kind of support does not necessarily equal safety or trust or fidelity. It sure as hell didn’t in my sitch. And if I had ever been given a choice, I would gladly give it all back - the ability to be a SAHM for a few years, the graduate degree I got later in life, the awesome (but low paying) job I’ve had for the last several years, etc. I’d give it all back to have had a husband that had been honest and kept his pants zipped. Because I’m not sure any of it was really about supporting ME, as much as it made him feel good about himself to be a KISA.

Just another perspective on “true love”

The1stWife,

I seriously believe the cheater hopes the betrayed spouse will just sweep this under the rug and the cheater faces no consequences.

I think this is pretty much spot-on. But, at first, I thought it was up to me to "get over it" too. I'm finally starting to get it through my thick skull that it's not up to me to get over it. It's up to him to be a safe partner.

I guess cheaters don’t know his to google “how to repair a marriage after an affair”. That is beyond their capabilities

LOL. Pretty much.

JanaGreen,

Reddit is for memes and adult content, not relationship repair

Haha! Totally agree.

sisoon,

So what I'm hearing from your response is that the pain will be the same regardless (unless my spouse is unremorseful, which I don't think he is), but that R is more work. I guess I'm just worried about putting in all of the work only to D anyway. But I guess there are no guarantees in life, and that doesn't mean it's not worth shooting for.

jb3199,

That's great advice. I've said my piece, not quite so eloquently, and I didn't give him the stark warning of hearing hard truths. I imagine he knows that, and it's probably partially why he's still not posting here. But, I've said my piece, and now it's up to him.

I'm sick of dragging him through this and always telling him what to read. He's a guy who researches EVERYTHING. Why isn't he using every resource available to him when it comes to fixing our relationship?

OwningItNow,

He's got a lot of convenient excuses. I'd start packing for a stay elsewhere to show him who is making the decisions in this marriage. Waywards don't hear words. But they sure as shit feel consequences.

He really really does. You're spot on, but I'm not ready to start packing to stay somewhere else. I have some faith that he'll start putting in more of an effort. He needs to start showing me that he really wants this soon though. I won't wait around forever, and he knows this. I'm not 100% sure he fully believes it (because I did the stupid pick-me dance for months), but he's in for a rude awakening if he doesn't. I think I'm finally at the place where I'm not willing to do the work by myself, and he's finally at the place where he understands that I'm not just going to "get over it."

PSTI,

We only get one life, and choosing how to spend our time is really important. You deserve happiness. You deserve to have your needs met and at least some of your wants. It's important to know who you are and what you want as an individual and not just part of a couple.

I get what you're saying, and I agree. But, what if what I want is to go through life with someone I love and genuinely enjoy spending time with? I do have my own separate hopes, dreams, and aspirations, and those are things I can pursue with or without him.

In my opinion, life won't always be what I want regardless of who I'm with or what I'm doing. There are ups and downs. Why would I not want to face the ups and downs of life with someone I love?

If you could go back in time, before this relationship, would you still get into it, knowing what will happen?

That's kind of a tough question. We've been together for 15 years and had a friendship even before that. That's almost half of my life and all of my adulthood. Even though the last eight months have been the most painful of my life, I don't think it undoes the last 15 years. I don't regret being with him, and I believe we can survive this. So I guess, yes, I would still choose this knowing what would happen.

Don't you want to be able to stand on your own two feet? To be able to be there for yourself? You're a strong woman even if you don't feel that way right now. You can take care of yourself. No matter what path you take, you WILL be happy again in the future because you will make it so. That doesn't mean I'm saying leave- you can stand on your own feet being with someone- but being self-reliant is really going to help you weather storms.

I'm not with him because I need him. I'm with him because I love him and want to be with him despite everything. I also don't think wanting a shoulder to cry on makes me unable to stand on my own two feet. But, thank you for reminding me that I am strong and capable and that I will be happy again.

I have a husband who loves me, who puts my best interests at heart and genuinely wants me to be happy and succeed. I know that I could literally come downstairs tomorrow and say ANYTHING. I could tell him I want to learn to skydive. I could tell him that I want to train for a new career. Whatever it is, he would listen to me and find a way to be supportive- and if it was something that really wasn't a good idea for objective purposes, he'd find a way to suggest something else. He tells me to dream the dreams and he will build them for us- because he knows that I love him and want him to have what he wants, too. That's true love. And you deserve it, too.

This is who my husband was as well, and I believe, who he can be in the future.

Like anything else, you have to let go out of the outcome and just do the best you can. If he isn't prepared to do that, then the percentage is going to be zero.

That's sound advice.

gmc94,

Totally agree.

[This message edited by Joanna1013 at 9:35 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

I'm sick of dragging him through this and always telling him what to read. He's a guy who researches EVERYTHING. Why isn't he using every resource available to him when it comes to fixing our relationship?

This is what hurts so much. We put effort into what we want to do. Into what is important to us. Believe his actions (or lack thereof). Trust that they are showing you something that you need to see.

My guess is that he's letting you guide him through what he absolutely has to do to avoid divorce. He isn't invested in fixing this like you are. He's hoping you fix it for him.

Gently, Joanna, have you discussed your objections to D in IC?

It really helped me to figure out what my life would be like if I D'ed before I chose between D & R. I was certainly scared of D, and I certainly preferred to stay M, but D had it's attractions.

I liked having 2 good choices. You seem to be saying that you want R because you don't want D. That doesn't compute for me.

DevastatedDee,

I really hope you're wrong, but it does feel like that, yes. I think part of that attitude though is because I encouraged it.

In the beginning, I made every mistake in the book because I was afraid to lose him. I tried to take control over the situation when I should have let him figure it out and show me that he wanted me.

Even after he broke NC a month ago, I was the one who made him start IC and made him read Not Just Friends.

But he told me a couple of days ago that he's been looking for books on how to help us heal, and that he's reading How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair, which makes me think that he is reading here even if he's not posting.

He hasn't done much in the past to show me that he wants this, except for what I made him do. I think/hope that's starting to change. I'm not ready to give up yet, but I won't hang on forever.

sisoon,

I quit IC at the start of quarantine, and we never discussed D. I don't want to D, you're right, but that's only part of the reason why I want to R. I genuinely want to be with him, or at least with who I thought he was. I think he's still that person.

[This message edited by Joanna1013 at 10:10 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

H and I are not far enough out to say which of these statistics that we will fall under in the end. I can tell you my thoughts as the WS on the matter. And at this point my H and I do consider ourselves mostly R'd. I think OKOKOK has it right in that R is a lifetime commitment (as any marriage is) and that the work is always going to be there.

For us, the decision to stay together and to work our marriage has brought to us many gifts. We both feel very much like we wish we could have gotten to the benefits without the pain. We have had a lot of good years together prior to the A, and we have many more years (hopefully) to enjoy our life together. We get to stay a family, my husband gets a dramatically improved, healthy wife, we have dreams of our next chapter together. But it's required a lot of communication, humility, work, and time reconnecting, reinforcing our bond together, and an unbelievable amount of love.

I tend to think the most common reason that people do not successfully R is because one or both do not heal or can not heal while staying the the marriage. The whys of that vary:

--The WS doesn't do the work to heal for various reasons and never gets it. They are often their own worst enemy.

-The BS can't heal and remain married due to their own cognitive dissonance about staying married after such a devastating act of betrayal/disrespect/disregard/etc. Doesn't matter what the WS does.

-The WS does enough healing to find the BS is unhealthy and they refuse to do anything about it.

-The WS has some sort of SA or other mental condition that is too unsurmountable.

And, I mean I could go on. It's true a lot can go wrong in reconciliation. I do think what others are saying about each focusing on their own healing and what needs to happen on their own individual side of the fence is a big predictor of success, versus one leading the other.

But, you also have to remember that forums such as this one and subreddit draw a lot of people who are having a lot of problems at the time they are members. Noone comes to these forums for fun, so you have to think many are drawn here because they are in the midst of the worst of emotional turmoil and they simply aren't going to often have a positive outlook because of where they are in their own journey. Many of the rest stay to relay their experience and we have many who are R'd, many who are divorced, and many who are still in the marriage but not happy. In the third group the most common denominator you can find about their marriage is inneffective communication.

But, here is the problem with your husband. Your husband does not have the luxury to be worried about what the results will be. He is the one who already ducked out. His only choice is to stand up and fight for what it is he wants or he will lose it. But, he has to also redefine what that means. Maybe he thinks "but I want this marriage". I mean, that's good, and that's okay. But what he REALLY has to say is "I want to be a better man. I want to look deeply at myself and make the improvements that will make that happen. And, in the midst of that, I will be a better husband, father, and over all person". True change is always selfish, and it's always precipitated by one's own personal pain.

Also, if that's the plan, it's one he has full control over. I realized probably early in the second year to focus on that the most when things looked hopeless. That was a mission I was able to win no matter what. I had to look at the marriage as something I wanted badly, but also something that if it went away I could manage to go on. This created a shift that was very important in our progress as a couple. It made me get super honest and open and transparent. It also allowed me to even stand up for myself when the situation called for it. As long as the marriage is the only focus, then the WS will only be able to manipulate rather than coming from a place of improvement.

I don't know if that helps, but I can tell you that R doesn't always have to mean a lackluster marriage for the rest of your life. It can actually begin a marriage that is better than you ever knew it could be. Your husband needs to shift his focus to what he can control, and that begins with the digging and the self awareness, the transparency of that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:58 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

After dday1, when my 'darling' husband confessed to having 'fallen in love' with his 18 yo slutcake, and confessed that he had decided that he wanted to be poly-amorous (you know cus the wise whore told him he was ) , I was blown to pieces. It was AWFUL. He tearfully promised that he wanted to do 'whatever it took' to get 'us' better (bullshit). He swore he loved me (cowshit). He vowed to work on things (steaming heap of manure).

After all this, as I struggled to get up and go to work and eat and drink and function as a human adult, you know what he did? He sat his dumb ass down every. single. day. to read kindle books about polyamory. He argued with me about how it was really such a much better lifestyle and that I was being hopelessly old-fashioned. Fucker flat out told me that 'he needed to date and sleep with other women so I had better get on board'. Oh yeah - THAT went down well. What did he not do? ANY work or research into how to help me heal. Support my healing in any way, delve into what his malfunctions were.

And I, reeling from all this, was doing some pretty spectacular mental gymnastics about how 'reading books about the affair causes him a lot of shame' (poor muffin), and 'all the work he needs to do to fix this is overwhelming' and and AND ad nauseum. But... let's logic this shall we? He had NO issues with downloading 18 EIGHTEEN books on ployamory and reading those. He had no issues with going to 'work' and dry-humping his little slut for three more weeks til she got fired. He had no issues with doing any of those things, ONLY oddly with anything constructive to help his WIFE.

Point I am making here, I tied myself in knots excusing all of his lack of interest in working on things. Because I 'loved' him. Because I didn't want to get divorced (I mean... who does?). But the truth of it now that I have some distance and clarity is that I loved the IDEA of him and US. I loved what I thought was there. I did NOT love what it actually was. He was saying all the words someone should say, but his ACTIONS were the truth - he had zero interest in fixing a damn thing. He did not care about my pain. And for the false R, I paid the price of dday2 and lost 9 more months of my life to him. After all is said and done? Wasn't worth the price I paid and I shoulda kicked him the fuck out on dday1. Oh, and given the fact that he had her over for a slumber party 5 months after NC was established... Yeah - he lied and lied. And lied some more. I doubt he even knows what truth is anymore.

Joanna, I understand what a mind-fuck it is. i really do. But please take some time to really think about YOU. Cus as far as I can see, you are still concerning yourself with him - what he's read, who he's talking to, what he's doing. I get it, and I LIVED IT. But that is still a version of the pick-me tango. It still feeds into his pathetic ego. Worry about YOU and your needs and wants, and then really take off those rosy glasses and look at what he is actually DOING. Which to now is pretty much nothing.

Sending hugs and strength.