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How do you know if demands/boundaries is controlling behavior, or not? How do you know your demand is "normal" and when it's not? And what do you do if the other party refuses to accept your demands?

Thanks for your help. Been googling this subject to death and I still can't work it out.

Boundaries are about laying out what behaviors you will and will not accept. Control is about manipulating a person into doing what you want them to do. With boundaries, the other person has a choice to respect or to break them. With control, the illusion of "power" is in the hands of the controlling party.

Not sure if you have kids, but there are numerous examples that I can come up with in that arena to show the difference.

A boundary for my teenagers is the curfew they have. They are expected to be home by a certain time. If they are not home by that time, there are natural consequences that follow (such as not being able to go out for X number of days or weeks).

If I were attempting to manipulate and control their behaviors, it becomes more of a reward/punishment system. "You can go out if you hand scrub the floors." "As soon as you mow the yard, rake the grass, and turn over the compost pile, I'll let you go out (assuming this isn't part of their normal "chores")."

One is a natural consequence of breaking trust (out past curfew), the other is something "extra" being used in an attempt to manipulate behavior.

The question about the other party refusing to accept your boundaries (I'm assuming the boundaries are the demands) is a simple one that is answered with another question that actually points to whether they are boundaries or manipulation. Are you prepared to actually enforce the boundaries? If not, then they probably aren't boundaries, they are an act of manipulation.

Boundaries are those things that say "I will not allow you to treat me this way." Control and manipulation say "I'm going to make you do X because I want you to do X."

So, simply put, if there is a choice involved followed by a consequence, it is a boundary. If there is no choice involved but only punishment until your demand is met, it is control and manipulation.

[This message edited by CaptainRogers at 7:29 AM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

Boundaries are about YOU. They're about protecting your core values and setting limits on the treatment you'll tolerate from others. It's easier to see the difference when you make them into boundary statements. You're not setting rules for another grown ass adult to follow. You're talking about YOU and your intentional way of life.

A "rule" handed down from on high sounds arbitrary and controlling. A diktat like "you won't lock your phone" is about the other person. But when you convert it to a boundary statement, it's about what kind of person you're willing to live with, ie. "I will not tolerate a secretive spouse who isn't completely open with me". This tracks back to the way you value honesty and openness in the primary relationship and should reflect your own willingness to be transparent and open. It's about how you intend to live your daily life.

It's entirely subjective. Of course boundaries are a form of control. You are incentivizing the outcome you desire by saying "if you behave in this way, you don't get to be with me". As children, we learn how to manipulate people to get what we want. Some of these tactics are seen as benign, and encouraged, and others are seen as manipulative, and chastised. Where the line is depends entirely on the individual's upbringing, value system, life experience, etc. You yourself determine what are "healthy, reasonable boundaries" and "unreasonable, controlling behaviors", typically based on The Golden Rule: would I be okay with myself if I subjected someone to these same expectations?

I have been struggling this lately as well, so I am glad you posted.

One of my boundaries was/is no hiding of conversations with women behind my back, and nothing inappropriate such as flirting, sexual, etc. Historically he has tried to delete any evidence of talking to women from me, and several times what started as innocent turned sexual.

Anyway, it is NOT about never talking to women or that he has to run every conversation by me, I know that's not realistic, nor do I care to know about every interaction he has. For me it is about transparency, and the old "people who have nothing to hide don't hide". Deleting messages with the intent of me not seeing them automatically looks guilty to me.

His therapist feels very strongly that is a rule, one that I am not allowed to make. That I am not allowed to say what is inappropriate or not. So then I start questioning if I am being unreasonable.

I do think we need to ultimately get to trusting the W to make good decisions, and need to trust ourselves to act when they don't. However, I feel that sometimes the rule vs. boundary thing is so fuzzy, and everybody seems to have a difference of opinion on what is one vs. the other.

Anyway, I know that doesn't help, just struck a chord because I struggle with the same thing!

I can speak from my experience. My husband has an active ego. Which got slightly deflated when I accepted him back into my life, living separated for three months after D-day.

He promised to me and to his family to work on being humble.

But when he perceives something as demands (aka boundaries) his ego takes over and he shuts down. I get it. It is not me, nor are my "demands" excessive, it is his ego that gets in the way. Like "you can't tell me what I can or cannot do."

Sorry dude, but that is exactly what I am telling you. I am no longer the passive wife who accepts your ego and I stand by the consequences I have laid out. Infidelity does that, it changes the original marriage boundaries to post infidelity marriage boundaries..

For us, it is the consequences that hold my husband accountable for his behavious. My husband has the freedom to behave in what ever manner he wishes to behave, post infidelity, and I have the freedom to act on the consequences post infidelity. Whether he perceives this as controlling is not an issue. If he refuses to accept the boundaries, well, we both know what consequences I will act on.

Each couple has different do's and don'ts. Work out what is best for you to feel safe, for the marriage to feel safe. That becomes the "normal" for you. Identify your non-negotiable do's and don'ts and negotiable do's and don'ts, with consequences clearly explained. Be prepared to act on those consequences.

For me it took a lot of courage to talk. But that is me. We are still learning what works best for me , for him, and for our marriage.

Boundaries are "I cannot allow myself to be treated this way, that way, this way" and the natural follow up is that you distance (detach, spend a lot less time with, no longer turn to, etc.) or otherwise end a relationship where someone crossed one of those boundaries (hurt you, offended you, etc.). It's not controlling to be hurt by other people's behavior and move away from valuing, trusting, and prioritizing them accordingly. It's healthy (but don't count on the offending party to see it this way, they never do).

You have to understand your core value, that respecting you is extremely important to you, that you matter and know what respectful treatment looks and feels like--before you can naturally enforce your boundaries. If you value the other person or their love or keeping the relationship more than you value the respect you receive, then you will easily and immediately shift into making requests of them, insisting they do certain things, begging them ... all while doing nothing to detach or move away from these people who clearly do not deserve your efforts. If you overly value others, it's usually because (typically due to FOO) you had someone who taught you that gaining their love and approval was most important. And your compass broke because of it. When your compass is broken and is 'other' focused, you are trying to control their behavior to keep the R. Because you really want to keep the R. Nope, boundaries are self-focused, focused on what is required to make you feel respected; you don't mind losing relationships if necessary. Control is other focused, focused on keeping relationships intact; you obviously don't mind the ongoing or occasional disrespect to make sure this happens.

When your self-respect compass is working, you naturally and instinctually detach from people who disrespect you, whether you have discussed the meaning of respect with them or not. Disrespectful people are not owed 10,000 sit-downs and an instruction manual before you take steps to spend less time with them (siblings, parents, in laws) or end relationships (romantic, friendships). You have every human right to move away from those who hurt you. It is, in my experience, that dastardly harmful FOO that not only allows poor boundaries in the first place but allows manipulation and double speak as you try to stand up for yourself. People with poor boundaries were raised in situations where boundaries were not respected or encouraged, and manipulative people take full advantage of that deficit in you while you suffer from their poor treatment. "You are ending things with me? Because I hurt your damned feelings? Wow. So selfish. You just want to control every minute of my behavior." We only fall for crap like this due to our own FOO. People with strong boundaries tune these nonsensical attacks out as they protect their need to detach while moving on to healthier relationships with respectful people.

My youngest son's grades took a tumble during remote learning, so I took his gaming keyboard away. He was not happy and said, "You can't just do this to control my grades!" I very calmly said, "I have no desire to control you, but I cannot be the kind of parent that listens to her son gaming while knowing he has Ds in his classes. I can't be that mom. It makes me feel horrible about myself. I'm sorry." He had nowhere to go with his argument and shut up. His grades did not jump up to As, but I feel like natural consequences are reminding him daily that we don't do whatever we want while our obligations go untended. I feel much better than I would feel if he were playing while ignoring his work. It's just about me and what I feel comfortable with. It's not about making another human being rise to my imposed standards. If his poor grades continue, I think paying for his phone will also bother me. And so it goes. I don't yell, scream, beg, threaten, or lecture. I don't withhold hugs and kisses (he's almost 17 and doesn't want them. Lol). But I have to live with my choices and effort as a parent--and I have boundaries about what I tolerate from a child ignoring his responsibilities! It's not control. It's my queasy stomach when I do nothing while he disrespects himself and me, what I offer him in this home and what I pay for. Where is the gratitude and accountability? Nope. You cannot just do whatever you want while I suck up all the hurt and worry.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:24 AM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

As others have said, boundaries are about YOU. They are about what you are willing and not willing to tolerate in a relationship.

They are not threats or efforts to control another. When you enact boundaries, you are not telling someone else what to do--you are giving them consequences for their choices.

When you choose the action, you choose the consequence. A natural consequence of continuing to cheat or breaking NC is that the relationship could end.

With regards to boundaries, one has to follow through with them. If a consequence for breaking NC is a separation or filing for divorce, be prepared to go through with that.

Cat

If his poor grades continue, I think paying for his phone will also bother me.

^^^^^ I love this! ^^^^^

Boundaries are like a fence around my yard. I am delineating what is mine and saying that in this area - I get to make the rules, I get to specify who gets to be in here and when, and I get to tell them to leave my yard if they are not gonna respect my rules. If they refuse to leave the yard, then I will go in the house and lock the door.

Control is me laying down my fence but also telling my neighbors what they are allowed to do in their yard.

As far as boundaries go - that's really a personal thing. You can lay down whatever boundaries you want, but they need to be for YOU, not about controlling someone else's behavior.

Example: "I will not engage with you when you are drinking." On it's face, it looks like this is trying to control the other person's behavior, but really I am saying that I will remove myself from the situation if these conditions exist. Notice I am not telling the other person they can't drink, just that I will not hang around with them if they do.

Don't mean to threadjack, but landclark:

His therapist feels very strongly that is a rule, one that I am not allowed to make. That I am not allowed to say what is inappropriate or not. So then I start questioning if I am being unreasonable.

That struck me as odd because of course it's your marriage too and you can say what you are willing to accept. I particularly like the way Captain Rogers explained it. But I want to share something from my experience as a WS in therapy.

WS have bad boundaries and part of our work is creating them. Not just with outside people but with our spouses as well. Often WS seemingly are these go with the flow in the marriage type people, and we don't put parameters on our own happiness and what we are willing to accept in the marriage either. It also doesn't help if we think we are just following rules rather than having our own internal guidance on that topic. We will only follow rules while it's convenient for us. If we strengthen our own resolve on how we handle these matters for ourselves, then we will be in a much better place for being a safer spouse.

I think what the IC may be doing is trying to get your husband to figure out where his boundaries are. As his IC that would be their responsibility to do that. However, that exact topic, maybe better covered in your MC where both of you are trying to navigate each other. I don't know if you are in MC right now or not. You also have no idea what your husband is telling him to make him give that answer.

It would be my recommendations that you both think about this issue and write it out in the kind of language CR suggested. It's not unreasonable that your husband can't have secret conversations with other women even if he didn't have a tendency to cheat. But it's important this is a parameter he puts on himself for the reasons of this is not who he wants to be. This is not in his best interest to do these things that destroy what I believe most people deep down want - and that is security and stability and meaningful relationships.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:02 AM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

There are a lot of good analogies here but I find that it's difficult for many BSes to be able to apply boundaries to their situations based on analogies so I'll lay it out with an example. Couple of things - boundaries are about what YOU will be doing when your WS does something. They are not about what you will now demand from your WS. The latter is control and control is not necessarily a bad thing. It simply doesn't always produce great results when your WS is a habitual boundary pusher and breaker.

Example: The WS will not give up AP. Either they refuse or they say they will but keep breaking NC.

A BS who sets boundaries will say, "WS, you are free to keep seeing AP but not as my spouse," and then see a lawyer and start moving towards S/D. If the WS drops AP, they can change course back to R but if they find more broken NC or the WS refuses to prove NC, they will move to D. Boundary -> Consequence

A BS who controls rather than sets boundaries will do one or more of the following:

- Convince WS to drop AP

- Try to outlast AP / Pick Me Dance

- Set out demands without consequence (such as give WS a list but when WS does not do said list, the BS does not move 180, S, or D)

- Play marriage police indefinitely and use anger/reason to try and make the WS stop contact

Basically anything to control the OUTCOME of the marriage and to control what the WS does. Boundaries focus on the actions of the BS. Control focuses on the actions of the WS.

I'm writing to expand on catwoman's post, with some examples.

My boundaries are about me. Yours are about you. Boundaries respect other people's autonomy without controlling them.

A healthy boundary is in the form

If you do A, I'll do B - or -

If you don't do A, I'll do B.

IOW, my boundary is about what I will do when faced with certain sitches.

For example,

'If you get home too late to eat dinner with the family, you're on your own for dinner.'

'No screens until you do your homework.'

'If the car store doesn't meet my price, I'm not buying the car.'

'If you violate an SI guideline, you may suffer a consequence you don't like.'

'If my WS doesn't meet my requirements for R, I'll initiate D proceedings.'

The child gets to choose when to do homework. The child or H or W gets to choose their arrival time. The management at the car store is free to meet your price or not. The mods will talk with you about your guideline violation, if they catch it. Your WS is free to meet your requirement or not.

In all these cases, you get to choose your response - which you've already set up in your boundary. Late arrivals have to get their own dinner. No screens until homework is done. Meet your price, or you walk. Post within guidelines or not. Accept your requirements, or you walk.

The person who has to deal with consequences of violating your boundary may believe you're controlling, but that's the violator's problem.

I think one crosses into an attempt to control if one doesn't impose the consequences and instead does some sort of pleading with the violator to honor the boundary.

Oh, you poor thing! I'll make up a dinner plate for you.

I know you love your video games, and I can't bear to see you unhappy, so you can play Madden even though you haven't even started your homework.

I know it's $1,000 more than we agreed to spend, but I'll buy the car anyway.

I'm so triggered that I have to post this, even though it might violate a guideline!

I don't want to D. My WS has to change!

*****

A boundary is often called an ultimatum by people who don't like other people's boundaries.

I'm OK with that. Both boundaries and ultimatums have the same form:

If you do/don't do A, I'll do B.

It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.

After infidelity actually happens, most boundaries we set are steps we take to try to feel safe again — or at least safe enough to heal.

Infidelity shows impulse control issues at the very minimum, so asking someone who already violated the relationship to check in, or update you on their schedule, location, etc. is more a matter of consideration than control.

Reasonable is a matter of interpretation, but I think anyone who is betrayed is allowed some amount of un-reason to feel better about the person they are with.

We can’t ever control anyone or what they do. Ever.

We can ask people to keep us in the loop, and they will or they won’t.

So when someone suggests they are being ‘controlled’ I usually have them replace the word with consideration.

It’s not control to ask someone to check in. It’s not control to ask someone who has literally betrayed us to keep us updated on interactions with co-workers or neighbors in the same sphere.

We’re asking the person who hurt us horribly to take some more time to make us feel safe about being in the relationship. We’re asking them to be considerate about our feelings is all a boundary is to me.

Ok, thanks for all the replies. If anybody wants to add, please do!

True. Everybody knows how to treat somebody well. My ex husband certainly knew how to treat the OW very well. Next dude, if anything makes me go "mmmh", I will dump him. No need for explanation, explaining why it makes me uncomfortable bla bla bla. That's simply gives them ammo to bend my boundaries, and accept shit behavior.

It's exactly what I did with my ex husband and his mom. Tried to understand it from their side (they are so nice, they don't realise (my arse), they are like that. Funny, my ex husband was making a big deal in front of his mom that he was not "around my little finger" (ie stopping the car because I wanted to check if we had a flat tyre. He just pretended to not hear me and came with a nasty snarky comment when he realised that we did have a flat one). No probs being a doggo waiting for the OW outside her lab, to take her back to her car. When I was putting boundaries I was "wrong", "controlling", "unfair", didn't get a joke even if it was insulting. Mother in law taking my kid when I was sleeping (after a 10 hrs flight) to buy him a car seat and having an accident? It was the roundabout fault (traffic circle) and it was for my son's safety anyway.

They saw me as a soft touch and cleaned their feet on my back. Of course, when I retaliated and told m.i.l to not contact my kids, I was the controlling dickhead.

It should never have been my job to get my ex husband to be decent. My job should have been to be out of this toxic relationship because the people I was dealing with were not decent in the first place.

Bingo!

I set a boundary when we started dating that Lying and Cheating were relationship dealbreakers for me. (2 previous boyfriends cheated, and I dumped them)

WH says he felt it was me being controlling, and not reasonable

Waittttt? It IS controlling and reasonable! I said it to protect ME!

My dad was a control freak so even a hint that I was like him made me go the other way. Things regarding my kids and kids safety - I never had a problem sticking to my boundaries. That was a no-go. But it was more when things were put as "accident" and "oops" that got me confused. I mean, now, I can see there was never "oops/i didn't realise". My ex husband and his family knew what buttons to push to make me shut it, and I also knew that I had no support from my then husabnd regarding his family behavior. My ex husband also knew what to do so the OW would trust him and that he was lying only to me, but not to her. Toxic, toxic for me.

EmbraceTheChange:

You've gotten really good descriptions of boundaries vs. controlling on this thread. Thought I might add my recent experience with smacking down a big boundary that has led to the end of a 7 year relationship.

I asked and expressed my need (especially at a difficult time) for some basic relationship stuff that had been lacking (kindness, support, like that). After dancing around, he told me that I needed to live with my own life choices. Which I interpreted as "Suck it up - I've got nothing for you."

I have him one more phone conversation to try and explain that to me and he just doubled down.

So I smacked down a boundary that said something like: "Well, let's quit beating our heads against the wall trying to take care of each other right now. Let's both go live with our own life choices then. If you want something different, let me know."

And I haven't heard anything from him since. (I haven't contacted him either btw). I knew that was a very possible outcome when I put down that boundary. It stinks of course. But if I didn't stand up for myself I wouldn't have known where I stood.

Just an example because you've already received good input on definition. When we were in our first year of marriage, my husband (then, now ex) stayed out all night, didn't answer his phone, and came strolling in around 11 in the afternoon happy as you please. I set a boundary. If he ever stayed out all night again or didn't answer his phone for more than an hour, I would leave. He, of course, like the asswhole he was (wish I'd seen it so clearly then), got upset and told me I was trying to control him. I explained that, no, I was trying to control me. He was free to do whatever he wanted, to include disrespecting me and our marriage. I, however, was free to not accept such disrespect. He never did that shit again. Albeit, he still cheated, but i didn't know he was cheating at the time.

Many of the examples above are where the WS has self-implemented mental gymnastics to alienate their BS, either to justify their decision to cheat and/or to justify their reasons for having cheated. It’s all gaslighting bullshit, and you shouldn’t be second guessing yourselves that your behaviour was controlling. If you were controlling, the right response would have been for them to communicate with you that you have crossed their boundaries, and that you are being disrespectful. Unfortunately, their immaturity typically would have prevented this adult approach.

I faced the same issue. One of the reasons my ex was attracted to me is because I’m decisive. Like many, if not most women, she likes men who can lead and make a decision. In the aftermath of her affair, my decisiveness was flipped to being controlling. I was no different, she just mentally flipped one of my positive qualities to being a negative one. Point being, you can’t win. A WS will alienate the BS to justify their bullshit!

What infidelity taught me more than anything is that having very firm boundaries is imperative. My boundaries are way more concrete now than they ever have been. Only you know what is acceptable to you. And if anyone has a problem with that then that’s more their problem than yours. That’s how you have to view it.

[This message edited by Phantasmagoria at 1:16 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]