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Claiming she did it to get her ego stroked by her OM. How

does that make it ok for the WW to pack the weight back

on after Day an refuse to get back to the gym for her BH?

Should not the WW be providing the same visual motivation

that she gave to the OM to her BH?

After all does the WW not want to have her BH stoke

her ego?

Or does the WW expect her BH accept less than she gave to

her OM, shut his mouth up and accept the BH being her

plan B?

If your WW is still running on kibbles, THAT's a problem. Recovered WS's no longer suffer from that particular malfunction. So if she is, she's not recovered and you should dump her. Same thing if you think you're her "plan B". That's not necessarily on her, but if it's your perception and you can't be budged from it, the marriage is not recoverable.

Typically, women who are comfortable in their relationship, ACT like they're comfortable. They might not put on make-up every day and they might say 'yes' to sharing your dessert. So, what are we saying? We want R, but the WW should NEVER act like she's contented with her lot in life? She should act like you're a stranger she wants to impress or who she needs to put a face on for?

You know, women don't generally wear make up to impress men. They do it to feel more confident. Same as clothes, shoes, and accessories. It's about confidence, and really more about being confident in the company of other women than about being confident with men. So, what you're essentially complaining about is that your WW isn't so insecure with you as she is when she's around other people.

The argument is that a WW should be making "effort", but it's not really about effort. It's about insecurity and uncertainty. This can add to the excitement of an affair, same as any conquest does, but it shouldn't really be a goal for true, deep love. Why go through all the hassle of R for a person you're not truly, deeply, in love with and who you don't WANT to be secure and certain in your company? Being "secure and certain" with someone isn't "plan B". It's the comfort of being with someone you trust to see the inner you and having confidence that you are enough just as you are. People who don't want that should simply go find a more shallow relationship where everyone is putting their best foot forward and the kibbles are flying.

Because the fat acceptance movement is a lie, nobody is “healthy at any weight”, and fat people have shorter, more sedentary and unhappy lives.

The last time I looked, which was a while ago, the statistics were not conclusive.

Unhappy? I can buy that. I'm 40 lbs overweight according to the charts, after losing 60, and I'm unhappy about my excess weight.

But I think that's because of social construction. The media is filled with messages implying excess weight is wrong/bad/ugly/unhealthy and it's easy for people to lose weight. That's crap that overweight - and some not so overweight - people have to live with all their lives.

The fact that is part of life doesn't make it right.

*****

99lawdof99, If you D'ed, the raw demographics are in your favor. A single man over 60 is in the minority. There are lots of single women that age who would be happy to connect, and that's aside from the sigle younger women who would be happy to connect with a 60 year old law dog.

I don't know your sitch, and I support any legal decision you make, but I urge you to ask yourself if you're holding yourself back. Why be unhappy for another 25 years?

*****

She did an assessment on you, how much she values you, what it takes to keep you around, and what she is willing to do...and that’s what you are getting.

I read what WSes say a lot differently. They all say to me, though not often in so many words, that they get unhappy with their lives and cheat as a way of assuaging their pain. Their BSes don't really play much of a part in decisions to cheat.

The A is almost always about the WS, not the BS.

*****

...it's not really about effort. It's about insecurity and uncertainty.

That can be read as being about aps' insecurity, but after d-day, I expect it's also applies to BSes.

One of my requirements was for my W to work harder to court me than she did to please ow. That very much came from a belief that working to please me was a sign that she wanted to be with me. It came directly from my insecurity in our relationship.

I agree that effort is absolutely crucial.

Remember, though, that the A is a fantasy. It's easy to be at what one thinks is one's best for a few hours at a time. It's very difficult to be at one's best all day every day.

Generally, the BS sees a lot more of the WS than the ap does. The BS sees more warts.

But I'm all for BSes defining what they want from their WSes and demanding it. If the WS steps up, then R has a chance. If the WS doesn't step up, R probably is impossible.

If one thinks about what is healthy in relationships and what makes relationships worthwhile and lasting, weight of the partners is pretty far down the list.

*****

Resentment is a constant cloud over everything.

It doesn't have to be.

I agree resentment is a major obstacle to R. Resentment is a type of anger. It can be expressed and resolved in many ways, and it needs to be, no matter what the source of the resentment may be.

In the first few months of our M, I resented my successful grad student W for sleeping later than I did. She resented me for waking her when I got up to go to work. There are myriads of sources of resentment ... no one needs to look very far for one.

But it's a very heavy burden to carry around. Giving up resentment is a skill we all need to learn, the sooner the better.

*****

My guess is the focus on weight is not the real problem. It's not the objective weight. It's not the objective shape. The real problem is what weight means to the observer.

I'm not sure how to talk about it. I'm not sure how to solve any problem one person has with another person's weight, but I'm pretty sure that weight per se is not the problem.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:54 AM, February 22nd (Monday)]

More importantly what is her response when you state what you have said here? That the AP was worth the effort and you are not

Are you crazy? LOL

I'd rather take a bullet to the head than bring such stuff up to her. After years of trying and having it always spun around to blame me I quit. Want an example, say I bring up something about what she did with him and why, her response becomes super angry and the next words out of her mouth would be , well what about that time in 1994 that we were in a restaurant and you looked at another woman. Now given I have no idea what she is talking about but thats how she responds to anything. never answers and turns it on me and points out something totally irrelevant like the time I yelled at her for something 20 years ago which I cannot remember.

[This message edited by 99lawdog99 at 10:53 AM, February 22nd (Monday)]

it is what to what degree of effort she would not go for him as a sign of appreciation for his gift of R.

This reads like a very materialistic view of reconciliation. Give X, Get Y. Payment. Why would you want to repeat the patterns of infidelity with your partner?

I know I called reconciliation a "gift" as well a few times here. But it's a metaphorical concept. Which is not to diminish my appreciation of the gift itself.

In the end, reconciliation is a process taken by both partners equally (each within their respective role in the process). Or not at all.

Reality: Many waywards present their best and most sexually attractive selves to the AP(s).

Not sure why I want to weigh in on a contentious issue that is treading into ideological discussions, but I feel like I understand OPs question and issue. My WW was in the best shape she'd been in for over a decade while having her affairs. Was it for her primary EA partner or for the sexual partners, for herself, for the kibbles trades, for the affirmation? All of the above or just an unconscious things? I don't know. But nobody is objectifying anyone for pointing out that waywards often work very hard to be attractive for people other than their spouse: clothing, makeup, new jewelry, underwear, grooming, hair, nails, fitness, etc. The waywards OFTEN go out of their way to be their most sexually attractive to APs. I see many betrayed struggling that the same effort is not being made for their benefit for R. Natural conclusion: R and H/W are not as important a priority as whatever selfish drives were in place for the the wayward/affair partners.

Is it asking the wayward to crawl through glass to make the same efforts at being sexually attractive to the betrayed as they did for their affair partner(s)?

Is it really an ideological mens/woman's issue? It seems to me both men and women waywards conduct themselves in similar fashions, so its not a matter of objectification either way. The betrayed feel unloved, undesired, disrespected, and often unable to measure up to the fantasy of the AP. The waywards (male or female) can make this worse by showing the betrayed by their unwillingness to make the same effort for the betrayed as they did the AP(s). Where do I have this wrong?

[This message edited by Apparition at 3:14 PM, February 22nd (Monday)]

Why go through all the hassle of R for a person you're not truly, deeply, in love with and who you don't WANT to be secure and certain in your company?

I think many decide to try R because they are invested in years together, the family complications, finances, and a want for love. But the A can do a lot of damage to the concept of R for reasons of being "deeply in love". Hard to start R in a "deeply in love" state with fWS when the fWS has shown what love meant to them and how unsafe that view of love can be. I needed to see a lot of effort from my fWW. Every BS's effort need is not likely the same, but it is probably mostly for the same reason.

I think there are two distinct topics meandering in this thread. One on looks, body shaming, etc., and the other on the BS need to see effort in the way that a BS needs to see it. Sometimes that effort is related to the WS presenting themselves to their BS with the same desire to impress that they used in presenting themselves to their AP.

It seems to be not an unreasonable need, particularly if the WS really wants to impress their BS in a positive and trust building way.

Ya thanks but i DO comprehend what you guys are saying.

You fail to understand that its an unachievable goal because MORE will never be ENOUGH.

How many MORE gourmet dinners? How many MORE blowjobs?

Dragnheart, it is exactly that more. But not the way you think

more is. It is not WW gave 10 BJ's so I have to give BH 11

BJ's.

It is WW never gave BH BJ's but gave them willing to the OM.

It is that WW never swallowed for BH but willingly swallowed for the OM.

It is that WW showed great enthusiasm and effort when doing

BJ's for OM but never made effort to be extra special for her

BH.

Dragnheart, do not not see the inequality?

Do you need see the BH feeling his WW treated her OM

better than himself?

Do you not see the BH's need to have his WW treat him better

than she treated her OM?

I don't know how relevant this is exactly, but one of the biggest reasons that I've relished being single in the past year is that due to COVID, I work from home and don't go and do anything and I get to sit around not giving the first fuck what I look like. My clothes can be comfortable, my hair can be a mess, and there's no make-up on my face. It has been incredibly freeing. Pre-COVID, I worried about what to wear, getting my eye make-up right, spent time doing my hair, decisions about what shoes to wear that day, jewelry, do I look professional enough for these meetings today or can I dress down a bit, etc. There has been no professional work standard to live up to as a woman or male gaze to worry about pleasing at home.

I've actually lost weight in the past year, likely due to not eating at restaurants. My skin is clear from not wearing make-up. My hair is healthier from not being processed as often. I probably actually look better. I've been more comfortable with myself. I'm a lot happier not obsessing about hair, make-up, clothes, etc.

I don't value my work colleagues more than I value my daughter and my dogs, but I'm not dressing up to impress my daughter and my dogs and I did dress up to create an impression/fit into a mold at my job. I looked a certain way to continue making money and fit into an office environment.

The point isn't that every woman should divorce and stay home, lol. The point is that if your wife is being real with you and not doing all the fake stuff to look different, it's not necessarily that you mean less than an AP did. I didn't realize how utterly exhausting it can be to be female in public until I stopped doing it for a year.

As far as weight goes, hell, that can matter, but if 20 or 40 lbs is your dealbreaker, all the other physical changes of age are going to be a real bitch to deal with. I see being more concerned with a random hookup that's all about sex, but when we get to what it supposed to be a life-long committment, you kind of have to let some expectations go. Maybe if you're just a couple of beautiful people with fantastic metabolisms and money for all the extra stuff like botox and tummy tucks after pregnancies, you can have expectations. But for regular people with regular salaries and regular lifestyles, we're going to age real. I think I'm pretty darned good for someone who's 47, but I am under no illusions that I still look like my 27-year-old self. She already lived and I can't compete with her anymore. Were I still married to the man I was with at 27, he'd have had to accept a few extra pounds, c-section scars, and the usual bodily imperfections that come with 20 more years of life. I could starve myself back down to what I was then (and I do not kid about the starve part), but I noticed after DDay that it wouldn't exactly be comparable to what it used to be.

Is the problem really that a woman changes with age or is the problem that you are no longer comfortable with her being comfortable with you? Home is supposed to be a place of realness. If her realness isn't acceptable, then it's not going to work.

My issue with THIS topic is that it is generally placing all of a woman's value on her weight and that I do not condone or agree with. There's really not an equivalent thing for men, so it's hard to draw an analogy that would illustrate that point properly. And the way the information is presented in this particular thread (to me) reads that a woman OWES her husband her body (either weight or sex), and just no. No to that. I will rarely if ever defend a cheating spouse, but a woman never ever EVER owes a man her body in any way.

Too much focus on the weight than on that the WW refuses to

do for her BH what she did for her BH.

As to owing her body, both spouses have a claim on each

other bodies. If not than it would not be wrong for the wife

or the husband to withhold sex with their partner.

Marriage made them one.

This reads like a very materialistic view of reconciliation. Give X, Get Y. Payment. Why would you want to repeat the patterns of infidelity with your partner?

In my intent and use, it was the antithesis of materialistic. It was what is almost always meant when used in this forum, the gift of an opportunity to build on what was a shaky foundation. The gift did not require payback, my willingness to trust her again did require effort in ways that were important to me.

It was as you noted it should be:

...a process taken by both partners equally (each within their respective role in the process).

We each had our roles.

I understand that just fine and totally agree with the fact that a BS is owed the effort from their ws.

But going back to one of my earlier posts on this thread - if the underlying issue is about EFFORT, then make the post BE about the effort part. This thread is not being about the effort part. This thread is about how a ww must weigh x, go to the gym, do x sex thing, be made up, wear a sexy dress or she is not putting in 'effort' and thus is not 'justly compensating' her BH.

The 'effort' part is very hard to quantify and it is different for everyone, but I think is a very important topic to explore.

The idea that the only way a ww can show 'effort' is by allowing her BH to dictate how and what she does with her body is not one I will get on board with.

The effort part is not hard to measure. WW dropped 20 lbs

for the OM.

The WW ate salads for lunch everyday. Gave up all junk

food and in between meal snacks.

The WW went to the GYM 5 days a week for 1 hour.

The WW groomed and dressed better.

The BH is not asking the WW to do anything she has not

done before, the BH is not asking for anything more than

what the WW has done before. The BH is asking the WW to

give himself what the WW freely did for and gave to her OM.

Do you need see the BH feeling his WW treated her OM

better than himself?

Do you not see the BH's need to have his WW treat him better

than she treated her OM?

I see the inequity. Of course. Nothing is fair for us BS's when it comes to affairs but....

There is no comparison to your marriage and her affair. You cannot get more from her because hopefully she's no longer in that selfish mindset of doing anything and everything just to keep him interested so he would feed whatever she felt she needed (ego kibbles etc.).

Your value doesn't come from the actions of other people. You determine that and no amount of payment made by the ws is going to satisfy it.

It is WW never gave BH BJ's but gave them willing to the OM.

It is that WW never swallowed for BH but willingly swallowed for the OM.

It is that WW showed great enthusiasm and effort when doing

BJ's for OM but never made effort to be extra special for her

BH.

In this instance (and here i thought we were talking about weight...) the only option is D.

Yet again i stress that her lack of doing those things before her affair is a reflection of herself and not the BH even though you feel it does.

I will NEVER give anal to my wh ever again. Given the opportunity to explore he got rough, almost violent. A result of to much fucking porn and whatever his APs gave him. Nope. Never again. BJs. Nope again. He knew i hated it, did it for him anyways because i loved him and yet he fucked and got bjs from multiple other woman. Hes lucky if he even gets laid at all these days and rightly so. Im not a blow up doll. He either shows me the respect and affection i deserve as his wife and a human being or he can jerk himself off till the cows come home. Frankly i don't give a shit.

Oops, a bit of built up anger coming out there. Sorry lol

I think many decide to try R because they are invested in years together, the family complications, finances, and a want for love. But the A can do a lot of damage to the concept of R for reasons of being "deeply in love". Hard to start R in a "deeply in love" state with fWS when the fWS has shown what love meant to them and how unsafe that view of love can be. I needed to see a lot of effort from my fWW.

I needed a lot of effort from my fWH too. But the efforts required were about his character, his values, and in particular his ability to be HONEST. I'm not so shallow that I'd sit around judging him for how much hair he's lost, what his belt size is, or how grizzled his face has become. If I didn't "truly deeply love", I wouldn't have gone to all the bother of R. I see people who stayed for the "complications" (read "the wrong reasons") and all they do is pick their WS apart and bitch about it, like they aren't 100% responsible for their decision to STAY with someone they no longer love.

The BH is not asking the WW to do anything she has not

done before, the BH is not asking for anything more than

what the WW has done before. The BH is asking the WW to

give himself what the WW freely did for and gave to her OM.

So when is it enough? If the A only went on for 3 weeks, does the Wayward partner have to jump thru hoops for 3 weeks? 6 weeks? The rest of their life?

If every time the WW saw her AP she went down on him, does that mean that she needs to go down on you every time she sees you? How do you find this balance?

What is the scale? Is it necessary to keep a checklist or do you just remind the wayward partner that they are constantly not doing enough? Not jumping high enough, not responding quickly enough? What a difficult way to live day to day.

[This message edited by SadieMae at 11:51 AM, February 22nd, 2021 (Monday)]

If you're unhappy with "what you're getting" you have the option of the door?

Easy to generalize.

Because as an example the WW will not lose weight for her

BH the way WW did for the OM. Your solution is for the BH

to divorce.

BH is to cut off his nose to spite his face.

Better to sell the house and not afford another one. Become a

part time dad. Live on half the income because of spousal

support, child support. Wreck his retirement income. All

because his WW is to lazy to do the same work for her BH as

she willing did for her OM.

freely did for and gave

Well, there’s the rub, isn’t it?

As to owing her body, both spouses have a claim on each

other bodies. If not than it would not be wrong for the wife

or the husband to withhold sex with their partner.

Marriage made them one.

This is total bullshit. Maybe in eons past a woman was chattel to her husband, to be beaten or raped without offending the law. But not today.

As to owing her body, both spouses have a claim on each

other bodies. If not than it would not be wrong for the wife

or the husband to withhold sex with their partner.

Marriage made them one.

Nope nopetty noooooope.

Look, sometimes I just wasn't feelin it. Sometimes I had cramps or was bloaty. Sometimes I just wasn't in the headspace where sexytime was something I wanted to do just then. Sometimes when my xwh would wake me up out of a dead sleep at 2am wanting to get frisky when I had to be up to go to work in 3 hours I wasn't feelin it.

'Marriage making one' absolutely does NOT mean that I would have to put aside my own self and feelings so he could get some action. I can withhold sex at any time for ANY reason. I do not 'owe' my spouse or anyone else free access to my body unless I want to do do that. Period.

When I read threads like this, it really just hammers home my anti-R bias. Everything is tainted post-affair. Everything is fraught. Resentment is a constant cloud over everything.

This is where I'm at too. Whether it's the WW or WH they do more to impress the AP because it's like the beginning of ANY relationship. The courting period and it doesn't last forever anyways. If they left to be with the AP eventually they would stop the impressing as it seems to happen in any long term relationship/M. I'm not sure why it is seen as a competition.

I believe effort to make the relationship stronger and more connected is important after an A. But as another poster mentioned being able to screw another way, another hole, losing weight, yadda yadda... I'd be done with it. Just sounds like too much work and never being able to come back from the wrong doing.

Better to sell the house and not afford another one. Become a

part time dad. Live on half the income because of spousal

support, child support. Wreck his retirement income. All

because his WW is to lazy to do the same work for her BH as

she willing did for her OM.

That's a CHOICE. And the person who makes that choice is 100% responsible for it. If you make a decision to keep your stuff... be happy with your stuff. It's unreasonable to expect that someone you no longer have deep and abiding feelings for is going to make you happy.