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I think it’s nearly impossible to talk about this subject without it running off into the weeds. All you have to do is get on Instagram and there are women with photo shopped faces telling us how to wear make up. There’s no way a 40 year old woman has skin so clear that there’s not a wrinkle on it. We are so convinced that we have free agency that we do not realize how influenced we are by what we see. There are men who love padded women, skinny women, buff women and everything in between. Until Angelina Jolie showed up with her very puffy mouth we did not have that as a facial feature we wanted. Now women pay to have their lips puffed up. Men want their wives shaved everywhere and I consider that not only an insult but scary because only children have no pubic hair. This is a hot button topic.

^^ absolutely on the shaving part. It’s blurring the line between a prepubescent girl and a woman. I saw a Venus razor commercial the other day that was literally specified for women’s pubic hair, all I could do was SMH at how this is now being pushed.

And it’s now one other thing women are going to feel bad or less than a woman about having.

ETA: the wayward spouse didn’t do it “for the AP” but rather what she felt she got from the AP when she did it. It’s about her and her kibbles as EllieKMAS mentioned. The only way a human being is going to do something and have it stick is if they do it for themselves. Doing it for someone else bc of what they get out if it can only last for so long before it stops.

[This message edited by maise at 6:05 PM, February 21st (Sunday)]

When will "more for the BH" be "less then for the AP"?

This is the problem. Not effort but the expectation of MORE that cannot be quantified.

It will never be enough. That is what i get from these threads.

In REAL life, none of us get out of here alive. We get wrinkles, scars, flab, age spots, and weird growths. Maybe somebody gets into a traffic accident and gets their face bashed in, or gets cancer and has a breast removed. The bottom line is that if a person isn't loved for what's on the INSIDE, they're not loved at all, because what's on the outside is NOT going to survive the test of TIME.

And the whole idea that women who get into reconciliation should be held to a different standard than others is ridiculous. I fucking hate coming in here and defending cheating women, but WHY in the name of God and all that's Holy, would a man take his cheating wife back and not love the INSIDE of her? I'd think it would be too much goddam trouble to go through all that work and pain for the pathetically shallow love of the physical. That physical aspect is NOT going to survive anyway. Time takes everything. Too fat, too skinny, drooping boobs, drooping balls, it's all in flux as time ERODES us. Doesn't it make more sense to love the ones you love for however amount of time you can? And if a BH can't love his fWW the same way he'd love any other woman, why waste that time? Get out. Move on. Life isn't a competition about who got what. You're either in love or you're not.

OT, you’ve kicked the hornet’s nest. There’s no logic to it from my perspective but some will never understand the basic decency of a WW giving more - whatever that is - to the BH than to the AP.

And yes, a WH should absolutely give more, whatever that is, to his BW, than to his AP.

But again, some will never comprehend that.

January and February seem to be the months when weight is talked about the most. The weight loss industry is booming at this time of year and man after covid theres a new angle. I expected it to rear its ugly head here and like others have said the cycle will come back around to stir the pot.

Every affair is different and mine plays into this in a strange way. Both BH and I were probably in the best shape of our lives when I started the affair. I also gained a substantial amount of weight over the entirety of it. The weight loss for my marriage was toxic. Both BH and I have admitted to being verbally abusive during our skinny days, it was scary bad. My weight had nothing to do with my attractiveness to my husband or my Ap for that matter. My contempt, poor boundaries and self deception made me ugly to my husband. My AP on the other hand didn't give a damn in any real way so it was great for him! Let the ego kibbles and the compliments overflow! I had the best ass and boobs I'd had since my wedding day but NONE of it mattered because my heart and soul were still ugly. Being skinny made me ugly, the kind of ugly that I care about anyway.

I stayed in shape as best I could but the weight came back on, as it usually does when you don't adress the psychological aspect of why I over ate and did some closet eating as well. I was broken and in a really unhealthy mental place. Making choices that would destroy my husband and my family all while justifying it in a twisted mental labyrinth of bullshit. I put in the effort to lose the weight for my H, for my AP for anyone who would really notice or give me the kibbles. Anyone but myself.

My long winded point I think is that sometimes being thin, in shape or putting in the "effort" for our BS is just as toxic as some of the behaviors that got us in or kept us in affairs. You can absolutely want that effort and I wish it were fair and easy to just give it but thats not always reality. Sometimes its like telling an alcoholic they should just be able to quit drinking without going through the steps to get there. You can want it and deserve and almost be entitled to it from the one who hurt you, but it just can't happen on someone else's time frame. Weight issues relate directly to body image, self esteem, depression, the list could go on and on. Its not as simple as turning a switch on just because your BS wants it so badly.

Physical appearance is important to talk about in marriages just like sex drive, household responsibilities, parenting and any other hot button issues you can think of. It plays into rebuilding HEALTHY relationships emotionally too. Would you really want your WS male or female to get back in shape if that could put them back in dangerous spot?

On a side note BH and I are currently taking on weight loss together again because we both felt like we were ready. We've both focused on how crappy it went before and what we could do different and its going great so far. We have both hit our goals and it feels like we are a team instead of enemies. Rebuilding is hard, but when its done with respect and transparency there seems to be a higher chance of actually getting what you're looking for. I want to be a mentally strong, confident, and self controlled skinny person. I can't be or become that if my BH made it about the number or the effort.

OT, you’ve kicked the hornet’s nest. There’s no logic to it from my perspective but some will never understand the basic decency of a WW giving more - whatever that is - to the BH than to the AP.

And yes, a WH should absolutely give more, whatever that is, to his BW, than to his AP.

But again, some will never comprehend that.

Ya thanks but i DO comprehend what you guys are saying.

You fail to understand that its an unachievable goal because MORE will never be ENOUGH.

How many MORE gourmet dinners? How many MORE blowjobs?

In the thread that sparked this one the WW was considering surgery for Christ sake. SURGERY! To drop weight and still her BH is complaining about how she looks. What the fuck do you guys bloody well want more in effort than going under the knife???

In MY opinion i want none of the effort or things my wh gave his AP's.

None of it.

It wasn't real.

It wasn't genuine.

It wasn't authentic.

It was a pathetic attempt to feed her ego kibbles to get into her pants. I have more self worth and value than being so easily fooled into thinking i mean something to someone simply by the shit they do just to get into my pants.

There many assumptions, projections, and totally understandable trigger reactions here.

I have read plenty of threads over the years from men and women BS's who expect at least some "equivalent" effort from their WS as a show of the totally understandably "whatever it will take" concept during the R process, as some sort of response to what they showed to themselves and their A. The terms whatever it takes is a concept that only the specific BS can identify. It may not be possible, it may seem unreasonable to others, it may be clutching at straws, nonetheless, the whatever it takes to show that you are even worth the time and effort after all the WS inflicted trauma, is the purview of the BS.

As has been very well articulated here, the ownership and decision making power falls on the WS. There is nothing a WS has to do. They are free to say, hell no. They are more likely going to say something like, sure whatever it takes, and then maybe not quite fully or without some prodding, do the whatever part of what it takes. This level of effort by the WS is what is seen here far more often that the all in, whatever it takes effort most BS's are pleading for.

A BS has the right to say whatever they need, based on the level of effort that they perceive that will show. The WS has every right to say, take a flying leap, or explain why this is not a thing that they can do or wish to do or feel is fair or explain how it is not related to the "whatever it takes" concept. It is the right of every WS to agree or not agree, do or not do. To many BS's, this option that the WS has is part of the trigger that reminds them of all of the options that they did not have while the WS was manipulating the BS's life. It is both complex and fundamentally very simple.

I am in no way condoning or nor do I support the nonsense of marketing and pressures from social media in regards to how women or men "should" look.

I'm sorry I completely understand this original post. when my wife was having her fling, she worked out like a fool, would never eat anything, dressed to the hill and never was without make up. He got all the effort. Now, she has gained a lot of weight, never dresses up, cannot remember the last time I saw her with makeup or her hair done and what is her response, she tells her friends," we're happy and in love so what does it matter" yes, he got the well taken care of version and I get the rest. So the way I see it, he was worth the effort, I'm not. it's that simple.

we're happy and in love so what does it matter

Lawdog, do you agree with her statement? If not what are those conversations like between the two of you on this subject?

DIFM

Nope, but that' appears to be what she believes. I learned to basically just shut my mouth as it is not worth it anymore.

How does being fit = better?

I'm curious as to why this topic had to be started as gender-based. If we go by general statistics(sorry sisoon), there is more data claiming that men cheat at a higher rate than women. Those cheating men didn't give 'more-than' to their affair partner?

Why did it have to be just the WWs? Because the OP is male? Is this thread just for BHs, or for all betrayed?

Why kick up a hornet's nest, when it never had to be kicked? If a topic turns south along the way, then so be it. Don't set the tone as adversarial from the beginning. My $0.02.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 8:17 AM, February 22nd (Monday)]

In REAL life, none of us get out of here alive. We get wrinkles, scars, flab, age spots, and weird growths. Maybe somebody gets into a traffic accident and gets their face bashed in, or gets cancer and has a breast removed. The bottom line is that if a person isn't loved for what's on the INSIDE, they're not loved at all, because what's on the outside is NOT going to survive the test of TIME.

And the whole idea that women who get into reconciliation should be held to a different standard than others is ridiculous. I fucking hate coming in here and defending cheating women, but WHY in the name of God and all that's Holy, would a man take his cheating wife back and not love the INSIDE of her? I'd think it would be too much goddam trouble to go through all that work and pain for the pathetically shallow love of the physical. That physical aspect is NOT going to survive anyway. Time takes everything. Too fat, too skinny, drooping boobs, drooping balls, it's all in flux as time ERODES us. Doesn't it make more sense to love the ones you love for however amount of time you can? And if a BH can't love his fWW the same way he'd love any other woman, why waste that time? Get out. Move on. Life isn't a competition about who got what. You're either in love or you're not.

Chamomiletea, husbands accept that their wives age, they

are aware of times effect on themselves. Yet 40 years later

I still feel as I see my wife of 19 years old. Her outside is

what I saw first. Who she is attracted me more and sealed

the deal.

A BH after D day when recovering with their WW still wants

that person that they married. That person is now back with

him.

Just because a WW is NC, stopped having sex with her OM,

is that to be enough to fully make amends for her affair?

Will that provide just compensation for her actions?

WW hit the gym hard got abs, toned all over, groomed and

dressed to always look good during her PA.

Claiming she did it to get her ego stroked by her OM. How

does that make it ok for the WW to pack the weight back

on after Day an refuse to get back to the gym for her BH?

Should not the WW be providing the same visual motivation

that she gave to the OM to her BH?

After all does the WW not want to have her BH stoke

her ego?

Or does the WW expect her BH accept less than she gave to

her OM, shut his mouth up and accept the BH being her

plan B?

I do think what CT wrote is true - that being held to a different standard long term and being felt pressure to be a certain way to be loved is not really the healthiest. Many WS have spent years and years hustling for love, learning now they must also work to be this ideal size is a recipe for disaster.

But - The truth is the WS is held under different standards for some period of time no matter what. It's just natural consequences of your actions. Maybe not specifically geared towards weight, but if you want to earn someone's trust back and restore connection, then you really do have to bring your A game...for years. There is no way to not hold them to a higher standard until they can prove themselves worthy of your trust and vulnerability. They do NEED to reach a higher standard, that's sort of the point of becoming safe.

The truth is this post started from another post in which I felt pretty sorry for the man who wrote it. Mostly because I think we are so prone to be triggered by weight issues that we can't even talk about it without taking it personally.

It's probably common that attraction is the last thing to return after infidelity. The man was trying to understand the lack of attraction was looking at the most obvious reasons it might be. That's sometimes easier, right? It's easier to say "Well if she lost weight maybe I would be more attracted to her". That is something that seems fixable/controllable (even if it's not for some people).

What's not fixable or controllable is what likely dimmed that candle to begin with. The BS who may have been more accepting of the WS prior to the marriage has now had everything called into question. We look at a question like that as shallowly as it was asked.

Being attracted to someone is a delicate state to be in, and it most certainly isn't all exterior that contributes to that. Attraction and connection in marriage are often hand and hand.

As a WS, there are many things I could do to make myself more attractive or less attractive. When I was wallowing, I was less attractive. When I was more empathetic and in tune with him I was probably more attractive. The truth is a WS could get to an ideal weight, spend all the effort and time they could on their looks, and it wouldn't necessarily restore the attraction. In fact, without any interior stuff changing it may even be a huge turn off. It's easier to point at exterior stuff because it's more obvious. Men especially are visual creatures so when attraction goes away I think that their natural instinct is to look at the externals as the problem.

It's a consequence of the cheating party's actions that their spouse does not feel connected or attracted to them. Reconciliation is a process and it's messy. R happens when both people are healed and the relationship is healed. There is far more generosity to be shown to each other as a result. We shouldn't be shaming anyone for being in the beginning or middle state and not having that generosity.

I also think that it can come down to effort. In the affair I was about 20 pounds overweight. After the affair, when I started working on self-care as part of my healing those pounds fell off without that even being the goal. The more I took care of and respected myself the more stable I was. All of these things played into reliability and consistency and honestly I think those two things are the biggest key rather than the scale.

I think we missed an opportunity to help someone uncover what was really bothering them when he really wasn't trying to be disrespectful, he was trying to solve his problem.

I think like OIN said, lots of marriages go through a period in which attraction can be lost for a period of time. Add in infidelity, and it's really no mystery how that could get very, very lost. When flashes of it return, it's scary, fight or flight comes in. You almost can be fighting against your own attraction as a protection mechanism.

I just wish when someone brings this up we could really look at some of the underlying stuff instead of shaming them. The process of R is one of self discovery for both the WS and the BS and for that each thing requires a deeper look rather than being told why it's wrong. Just my two cents.

I think we missed an opportunity to help someone uncover what was really bothering them when he really wasn't trying to be disrespectful, he was trying to solve his problem.

As someone who was very offended by that thread, my offense was not so much with the OP posting. I think changing attraction is a very valid topic.

My offense was with the members jumping in, judging his wife and her weight loss efforts, offering suggestions to the OP on how to "fix" his wife's issues, offering ideas on how to "trick" the wife into healthy eating or living.

If the thread was truly about helping the OP and his feelings, then there wouldn't have been pages of tips, tricks, and ideas on how to change his wife. That is what I found offensive.

Why is it OK to manipulate and or gaslight someone if it's to help them "get healthy"? Where do you draw the line?

I just wish when someone brings this up we could really look at some of the underlying stuff instead of shaming them.

Quite a few have tried to do this. And yet, the point keeps getting made and the doubled down on that if a ww gains weight in R then she's not 'justly compensating' the BH.

I think that the underlying issue is the effort, and that is a relevant and wholly different conversation.

My issue with THIS topic is that it is generally placing all of a woman's value on her weight and that I do not condone or agree with. There's really not an equivalent thing for men, so it's hard to draw an analogy that would illustrate that point properly. And the way the information is presented in this particular thread (to me) reads that a woman OWES her husband her body (either weight or sex), and just no. No to that. I will rarely if ever defend a cheating spouse, but a woman never ever EVER owes a man her body in any way.

Claiming she did it to get her ego stroked by her OM. How

does that make it ok for the WW to pack the weight back

on after Day an refuse to get back to the gym for her BH?

Losing weight is more of a mental and emotional game for a LOT of people. This right here illustrates that starkly. This ww lost the weight for someone else. She lost it to make someone else happy. She didn't work on any of the mental or emotional stuff that the weight represents. Until a person chooses to lose weight for themselves, then any loss will be temporary.

As the BH in this scenario, of course you can make it a condition for R that your ww hit the gym and all. BS's can set any conditions they want for R. But the ww in that scenario would be perfectly justified in saying no imho. NO person owes another person their body EVER.

I think everyone is failing to understand that it really has nothing to do with what a person looks like or turns into . it has to do with who or whom they make the effort for. I could care less what my wife looks like , however, I am pissed that for him, she made sure she was at her best but with me, it's like she couldn't care less. that's the point. It's that they do not put in the same effort with their spouses that they did for strangers.

Ya thanks but i DO comprehend what you guys are saying.

You fail to understand that its an unachievable goal because MORE will never be ENOUGH.

How many MORE gourmet dinners? How many MORE blowjobs?

In the thread that sparked this one the WW was considering surgery for Christ sake. SURGERY! To drop weight and still her BH is complaining about how she looks. What the fuck do you guys bloody well want more in effort than going under the knife???

In MY opinion i want none of the effort or things my wh gave his AP's.

None of it.

It wasn't real.

It wasn't genuine.

It wasn't authentic.

It was a pathetic attempt to feed her ego kibbles to get into her pants. I have more self worth and value than being so easily fooled into thinking i mean something to someone simply by the shit they do just to get into my pants.

I completely disagree with this. It was absolutely real...and having had my share of BJs, I can say that there is no such thing as a fake one. If the WS took action and put in the work (in whatever area) for the AP...that work was absolutely real...real sex, real effort, real work at showing the AP that they were desired and valued.

The entire point is that a WS should put is 200% of the effort they gave the AP...not less.

If the WS can’t do that, amicable divorce is better. In most cases, it appears the WS can, as they proved, but won’t...because they don’t have to and the BS will accept less without leaving them.

I think everyone is failing to understand that it really has nothing to do with what a person looks like or turns into . it has to do with who or whom they make the effort for. I could care less what my wife looks like , however, I am pissed that for him, she made sure she was at her best but with me, it's like she couldn't care less. that's the point. It's that they do not put in the same effort with their spouses that they did for strangers.

If the drive to losing weight was mostly for external affirmations it brings that's not a healthy mindset for any wayward. Craving those affirmations is part of what lead them down the road to the A. To get healthy they have to flip that motivation to doing this for themselves. Would you rather have a slim and thin WW but still weak mentally or one more secure with themselves and therefore a safer partner?