SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am seeing here on SI that many WS have had more than one extra-marital relationships. So is it somewhat true that a cheater is more likely to cheat?
I think it is true because they loved how they felt during the affair so they would want it again and again. And also because they lack moral character, are disordered, etc.
I would love to hear your thoughts and experiences.

I once read that a person that has once cheated is five times more likely to cheat again than someone is to start cheating. Take that tidbit for what it’s worth. There is no statistical backing, no answer to if they were discovered or why they ended the first affair.
It does however go in line with other research that shows that someone that has once done a drug is more likely to do it again or try a new drug. Someone that has broken one law is more likely to break it again or another law. Crossing the first boundary is always the hardest.

Despite the above I find the statement "Once a cheater always a cheater" to be extremely degrading and insulting. There are plenty of great contributors on this site – including the late co-founder – who changed their ways.

So is it somewhat true that a cheater is more likely to cheat?

There is some recent brain science to suggest that once a cheater "breaks the adultery barrier" so to speak, they’ve now created some powerful grooves in their brain pathways that make it easier to cheat again. It doesn’t mean they WILL cheat again but it does suggest they are more prone to, unfortunately.

This makes sense if you think about some other factors.

Monogamy does not appear to be any more of a social construct than the instinct to nurture children (the idea of monogamy as a social construct appears to be a French Enlightenment myth — and like other French Enlightenment ideas about revolutionizing society, it seems to create great harm).

In fact, anthropology metadata suggests monogamy is the norm even in the most primitive societies, not a conspiracy cooked up by Bronze Age sky-god patriarchs out on the Steppes as a Machiavellian strategy for oppressing women.

Adultery is also a top transgression in nearly every human society, past and present, the world over. It is the most common no-no, other than the prohibition against murder. Probably because if it were the norm, trust would be an illusion, and it would make functioning nuclear families — and by extension, tribes, clans and more complex societies — nearly impossible to sustain (this should make us tremble for the future of Western society as this transgression seems to become ever more "normalized"). Even in rare societies where monogamy is not the norm, "cheating" is still forbidden.

It doesn’t take much imagination to think this suggests adultery violates something deep within us, perhaps at the DNA level.

If someone has broken through the powerful primordial prohibitions against it, it’s not hard to believe they’ve fundamentally altered their brain chemistry to allow the transgression again.

However, biology is not destiny. As thinking humans we are able to even change the nature of our brains just by thinking about it. That’s called neuroplasticity. How an organ is able to change itself through the exertion of free will is something scientists seem uncomfortable about (metaphorically speaking, there’s a lot of shifting of feet and awkward throat clearing now that this topic has become mainstream).

But the point is that humans have urges all the time, good and bad. Just because we have the urge to use the bathroom, we don’t immediately relieve ourselves in public. Instead we make choices. Cheaters can make choices, too. They can overcome whatever damage they’ve wrought on their own minds, and I believe they can achieve wholesale metanoia and never cheat again.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:05 PM, Wednesday, November 3rd]

Nope I don't agree.
If the cheater or WS actually understands the damage that they created, and then follows through with the work of fixing themselves, and rebuilding their lives, I believe those WS's are probably the least likely to cheat again.

But if a WS doesn't do any work to fix the problem, and are allowed to rugsweep the first one, and feels like they get away with it? Yes then they absolutely will try again at some point because they didn't fix their innate issues that allowed them to cheat.

So it really depends on the person and what they do with the opportunity when they are given the chance to do the hard work.

I do not believe in blanket assumptions so no, "Once a Cheater Always a Cheater" is not necessarily true.

That being said, I have never cheated on anyone and would never date someone that has. It has nothing to do with thinking I'm better than someone that cheated; my own personal boundaries will not allow someone to "practice" monogamy with me. My now partner has also never cheated on anyone. Could he cheat? Potentially. But his 43yrs on earth has proven adultery free so I anticipate that he's a good risk. The only one I KNOW for sure will NEVER cheat is me.

I have a bit of a different take on this.

I believe there are (speaking in VERY broad terms) two kinds of people who cheat.

The first is one for whom cheating is rather a "perfect storm" of emotions and opportunity. These folks normally would have the moral fiber to walk away, but something within them spurs them on. Perhaps they're dealing with the death of a parent, or the loss of a job or otherwise feeling low and the excitement of an affair provides a temporary "lift."

The second is one for whom cheating is another exercise in deception. These people tend to be chronic liars, cheat on their taxes, fudge expense reports, etc. For these folks, cheating is merely another way to deceive or "get away" with something. Sometimes these types are almost addicted to the thrill of getting away with something. They're risk takers, adrenaline junkies, living for the thrill of whatever.

As you might imagine, the first type is much more likely to be a successful reconciler than the other. The second type has years (if not decades) of deceit to unravel and new ways of interaction to learn. This is very hard work because it is aimed at the core of who they are and the layer upon layer of self-delusion they have perpetrated.

Cat

I have a bit of a different take on this.

I believe there are (speaking in VERY broad terms) two kinds of people who cheat.

The first is one for whom cheating is rather a "perfect storm" of emotions and opportunity. These folks normally would have the moral fiber to walk away, but something within them spurs them on. Perhaps they're dealing with the death of a parent, or the loss of a job or otherwise feeling low and the excitement of an affair provides a temporary "lift."

The second is one for whom cheating is another exercise in deception. These people tend to be chronic liars, cheat on their taxes, fudge expense reports, etc. For these folks, cheating is merely another way to deceive or "get away" with something. Sometimes these types are almost addicted to the thrill of getting away with something. They're risk takers, adrenaline junkies, living for the thrill of whatever.

As you might imagine, the first type is much more likely to be a successful reconciler than the other. The second type has years (if not decades) of deceit to unravel and new ways of interaction to learn. This is very hard work because it is aimed at the core of who they are and the layer upon layer of self-delusion they have perpetrated.

Cat

Well Cat then I certainly made the right choice to D my WH. He is a combination of the two. He has given the excuse more than once that it was the perfect storm, yet he also lies as a default. And he still thinks I need to prove my worth to him before he makes any effort to redeem himself (hence the D). When it comes down to it, he cheated because he wanted to and would do it again if he wants to - very simple. He claims it wasn't planned yet he put himself in situations that would encourage it. He doesn't believe that an EA is a real A (another reason to D) so I told him you kept your interactions with AP secret from me so you knew they were wrong - anything you don't want me to know is a problem. But I just got more excuses. So it seems in his case it is not worth the chance that he won't do it again - once a cheater always a cheater.

I think the cheater that feels guilty and confesses, they are more likely to stay faithful because they fell on the sword. They recognized the wrong and couldn’t hide their guilt.

The cheater that doesn’t feel remorse, feels entitled, will take it to the grave. They don’t confess because they don’t plan to ever get caught, they are much more likely to cheat again.

Unfortunately my WW falls into the latter “confess to the evidence only” cheater. She did eventually confess to more than I knew but it was like pulling teeth.

I don’t think once a cheater always a cheater, but some are more likely than others to cheat again.

May sound strange, but I'm kind of the "all of the above" in this thread!!

I DO think that someone who cheats once, and rugsweeps or otherwise fails to do the HARD work of change (regardless of whether the relationship is lost bc of the cheating) is EXTREMELY likely to cheat again.

I ALSO think it's entirely possible for any cheater to do the HARD work to learn, grow, and change into a "safe" partner.

So, where does Catwoman's "types" come into play? I guess a part of me wonders if the "type" of person who cheats/rugsweeps and then does it again (and again and again) falls into the "if once, then always" kind of category. And, it may be that such a person would LIKE to learn to be honest, but for whatever reason, just can't do it. Or they have a mental disorder that just won't be healed, or "fixed".

Those who experience the "perfect storm" of which Catwoman speaks? Well, they COULD do the work to become a safe partner.... or they could not, and then cheat again.

So, I guess I'd categorize as a situational, one and done, learned my lesson type... and then the serials who may spent a lot of energy convincing themselves they are really "only" situational, when the reality (if they are even able to take that hard look at themselves) is they are serials.

Even serials (and even SAs) can do the work to change into "safe" partners, but from what I've read, they still have a high propensity for relapse.

IMO, ANY cheater - from ONS to single LTA to serial to SA - who doesn't dig DEEP to make serious and profound change, has an extremely high likelihood of repeating, even if they lose relationships or D due to the infidelity.

It's like a chip in your windshield... if you don't address & fix it, things will crack & spread forever.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 3:41 PM, November 3rd, 2021 (Wednesday)]

The first is one for whom cheating is rather a "perfect storm" of emotions and opportunity. These folks normally would have the moral fiber to walk away, but something within them spurs them on. Perhaps they're dealing with the death of a parent, or the loss of a job or otherwise feeling low and the excitement of an affair provides a temporary "lift."

I totally sign on to this. It describes my EXWW to a T. The spur in this case was my last daughter leaving for college and her not being able to cope with an empty nest and the end of what she viewed as her job as a SAHM.

I never thought that she would ever put herself in a position to cheat again, and I don’t believe she did for the rest of our marrige. She was also a textbook case of a remorseful spouse.

The aftermath for both of us was terrible. Gone was the loving relationship we had, and in its place her walking on eggshells waiting for the other shoe to drop, and me really not caring if I was married or not. She was terrified of burning the toast, let alone texting or getting into a compromising position with another man.

I do think consequences play a role too. Had I just easily forgiven who knows. I think she had to moral fiber to not do it again, but of course itnought she had it to begin with. The fact that her actions brought down life as she knew it was insurance to prevent a relapse

I don't know. I've been reading these forums for years. There is a High number of BS, who return, because their WS has cheated again. BS who are shocked, because their WS was "remorseful, and did the work." Yet, years later, they're back because they've been cheated on again.

There is a post,in the wayward forum, that's always referred to..things every WS needs to know. Written by a former member. He was very insightful, and everyone believed he was remorseful, and had done the work. And he cheated again.

I think once they cheat,and get caught, they know how to get away with it in the future.

I do believe we have a few former WS who would rather chew their arm off, than cheat again. But I think those WS are rare.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:30 PM, Wednesday, November 3rd]

I can't speak of anyone but myself, but in my experience she did it once, did it again and then I discovered she'd done it before the supposed "previous first". So yeah. Once shit gets broken in someones head it's broken and they'll act broken.

IMHO, there will be external factors at play as well such as does someone act a way because they want to or they have to. Admittedly, in my case I allowed my own fear of abandonment to limit the consequences she'd ever have to fear facing. But it's fair to question why a spouse should require a fear of loss limit them to intimacy with only their mate. In hindsight, I know that even had she remained faithful after the first DDAY it would haven't been for her own want, only a fear of being caught.

I am left with knowing *the only thing* that keeps from a repeat is someone hating what they've done and hating the idea of repeating regardless of being discovered. That's something that comes from within them and we can't affect that.

My H had a 4 year EA 20+ years ago. He refused to admit it. It finally ended and was completely swept under the rug. Never mentioned again.

15 years later he has another affair. But this tube he develops feelings for her, has a typical mid life crisis affair and wants a D.

He had no remorse after the first affair.

So no surprise he had a second affair.

Things changed after the 2nd affair because I finally stood up to him. Lesson learned.

Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater

This always reminds me of the self control psychology test given to kids. You have a child, you have a bowl of candy and you tell the child "do not eat the candy" and then you leave the room, no adult supervision (child being unknowingly observed.) Some children don't touch the candy, others lean in as close as possible and sniff the bowl, some take a piece (and either lie about having any when asked later or tell the truth when asked or instantly feel guilty and tell the truth at the first moment when the adult returns) then there are those that eat the candy, it starts with "just one" but something is triggered and self control is lost and that "just one" ends up being more.

The wayward has already experienced the thrill of temptation and it's up to them if they have the control (strong new boundaries, for example) to look temptation in the eye again (because there is always temptation) and say "not again, not for me" or do they indulge because they've already done it, or whatever their justification is, and they do it again.

It is the million dollar question that all couples working on R no doubt ask themselves.

I'm a WW so take what I'm going to say with that grain of salt.

I subscribe to the "it depends" viewpoint that others expressed. For me, I don't say "Once a cheater, always a cheater." However, I do say "Once a cheater, always someone who cheated." And it's what you do with that thought process that IMO determines if you will cheat again. It's not easy to think of yourself as someone who did that to your BS, so for many WS we push those thoughts aside. Can't handle the cognitive dissonance (I'm a good person but I did something evil), so we bury those thoughts deep. Or, there's self-justification and rationalization. There are plenty of ways for a WS to rugsweep their infidelity, and when that happens there is no growth or understanding and therefore no change. However, if a WS does keep those thoughts in the front of their mind and uses them as a catalyst for growth, then it's a different story. My point is not to boast or say how wonderful I am here. I'm not. If I were, my BH and I would never have even found this site. But I do think of myself as someone who cheated. I did that. And there's no taking that away from me and who I am. I don't let it define me (that's not healthy), but I know it's in me and part of me and something I am pretty much always cognizant of. And because of that, it informs what I do in many situations, how I act, how I protect my BH, our M, and myself.

Can I cheat again? I'd love to say no, but had you asked me if I ever would anytime during the 25+ years my BH and I were together before I started my EA, the answer would have been a resounding Hell, no! Yet here I am. Do I believe I would again? No. Have I taken steps and worked hard to ensure that? Yes. Can I ever let my guard down? No. And the lesson isn't once a cheater, always a cheater. It's that anyone can cheat. We make choices every day. Many people make the right ones. Many do not. Learn from those of us who made the wrong ones and put measures in place within your own relationship so that you make the right ones always.

it's fair to question why a spouse should require a fear of loss limit them to intimacy with only their mate.

I don't think I've ever seen it framed this way. Thank you. You've hit an aspect that has troubled me all through these five years.

Many of us have WS’s who seen desperate to stay married, who profess their profound love, who express anxiety and grief over the prospect of divorce.

Yet we as BS’s know that, essentially, these sentiments ring hollow the moment they leave a WS’s mouth.

Because we know for a fact after DDAY that while all the things they are saying may be true, in fact probably are true, it wasn't enough for them to avoid adultery in the first place. Now they are saying that it will be enough forevermore, yet to believe this we must disregard the painful empirical evidence that says the exact opposite. Most of us have read texts, listened to conversations, seen (God forbid) videos.

So their deep sense of potential loss does NOTHING to assuage our actual loss.

We already know -- even in an intimate, good marriage -- that we weren't enough, and that the marriage wasn't enough.

I don't know why I haven't been able to articulate in this way, but this is among a myriad of reasons I think I'm "stuck."

The other day a poster tried to pin widespread BH recalcitrance on a lack of talk therapy or pride or stubbornness. Considering this person was a BW, I found this really odd.

In fact it is none of those things. It is because our heart and gut neurons have processed the truth of what I just outlined above.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:51 PM, Thursday, November 4th]

...we weren't enough....

The dilemma is, IMO, the question: 'Was I not enough, or is my W so fucked up that no one would ever be enough?'

If my W's problem was me, then D was the best solution. If my W's problem was herself, then R was possible. That's why my decision was partly based on her answers to these questions:

Do you love me?
Are you in love with me? (Maybe that's the same as: Do you want my body?)
Will you commit to monogamy from now on?

But here's the thing: whether the problem is between the BS and WS or just within the WS, the key for the BS is the BS's response.

Very gently, most people get stuck because they won't make a decision one way or another. I wonder if people who were stuck would be better off if they did some reframing. Rather than lament being stuck, I wonder what would happen if they started saying something like, 'I don't know what I want yet. As soon as I figure that out, I act.'

Or even, 'I'm afraid to act.' If fear is the problem, and if a member posted about it, I bet that member would get a lot of support and ideas for resolving that fear. (Fear certainly kept me stuck for years, though I resolved it long before my W's A.)

So their deep sense of potential loss does NOTHING to assuage our actual loss.

Oh, absolutely. I saw my W in pain. She had betrayed herself before she betrayed me. She almost totally fucked up her head, body, and life. I knew she had to face a LOT of pain in order to change from cheater to good partner. For over a year, maybe even for over 2 years, I took that to mean her pain somehow mitigated mine.

Nope. Nothing mitigated my pain. I had to heal me. She had to heal her.

The other day a poster tried to pin widespread BH recalcitrance on a lack of talk therapy or pride or stubbornness. Considering this person was a BW, I found this really odd.

I haven't seen that, but that does sound odd. I mean, I'm not a BH, but my pride did factor heavily into me not being all that into trying to R and I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. I have to high-5 my pride for that contribution, I'd guess. Yay pride. Pride was being a hero saving me from a lot of extra pain and drama.

But yeah, the fact that it wasn't about me made it much more upsetting. That's a perspective thing, obviously. Many people find that less upsetting. Aside from him sleeping with a bunch of prostitutes, we had a pretty enviable marriage that seemed to be filled with happiness and comfort. The only improvement we could have made was him not sleeping with a bunch of prostitutes, and that wasn't exactly appealing given that I'd never treasure him or the marriage like that again regardless. So best case scenario, we'd go back to status quo minus the depth of my love and respect and the cheating. Eh. I can see why you're not exactly blown away by this post DDay marriage.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:48 PM, Thursday, November 4th]

The dilemma is, IMO, the question: 'Was I not enough, or is my W so fucked up that no one would ever be enough?'

I can heartily sign onto this sentiment as well. The point I was making is essentially also the one you made. They are professing so much profound love, yet we have the real-world three dimensional evidence that this is not true.

I also like your framing of 'I don't know what I want yet. As soon as I figure that out, I act.' Because this how I feel also. That's the essence of limbo. I like you embracing the fact that this is a perfectly legitimate way to feel. Too many times, I see ambivalence and limbo cast as some sort of flaw -- you know, shit or get off the pot. In fact, we've seen some folks berating betrayed spouses over their recalcitrance and ambivalence when they are still feeling it years later.

Yes, betrayed spouses have to figure out what they want. But let's consider intently for a moment that the existential crisis we are placed in is not of our own making. We didn't run off with a trophy blonde (or a boy toy), get hairplugs (or a boob job) or buy a little red sports car.

Instead, we have been cast into a state of liminality -- very much like Sandra Bullock in the film "Gravity." Suddenly, catastrophically. In fact, Gravity is a great film for all betrayed spouses to watch -- almost, I would suggest, the perfect film for those dealing with betrayal trauama. Bullock's character undergoes significant trauma, tragedy, and chaos. Unlike betrayed spouses, however, she at least has the comfort of a wise old man (George Clooney's character) having imparted his teachings to her before his life was quickly snuffed out.

Typically, betrayed spouses have no such guide on their journey of liminality. We must instead plumb the depths of space with no real orientation of where we need to go (in Bullock's case, the destination is clear cut - she wants her feet firmly back on Earth).

I think it's worth pointing out that Bullock's character in the movie only survives the journey she is thrust into by leaving behind the wrecked vessel she once trusted in order to find a new and safer ship elsewhere. The spaceship she counted on is now an enemy to her survival.

I think we should embrace limbo/liminality here on SI as a third way. Being in limbo is difficult because when we are, we are in a state of liminality. It's not comfortable. It's like floating out in space. But I also think embracing limbo/liminality is a necessary step.

I am comforted by the fact that liminality is a rite of passage and I will get through it. Just like Dr. Ryan Stone in her spacesuit

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:00 PM, Thursday, November 4th]

We already know -- even in an intimate, good marriage -- that we weren't enough, and that the marriage wasn't enough.

It has nothing to do with "we" or "the marriage".

THEY are never enough for themselves.