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Wife and I are currently in MC. Our therapists has stated my wife suffers from low emotional intelligence and that she may never be the person I need her to be emotionally. Therapist also stated that my wife’s low EQ played some role in her affair.

Anybody on here ever dealt this or even heard of it? I’m researching of course, but thought some of you could provide some experience as related to real life situations also.

I'm sorry but I just have to say that I have an issue this MC and their defeatist attitude. "she may never be the person you need"? Based on her EQ? I strongly believe that there is not a permanent "score" to one's EQ and that it can be raised and even lowered. *barring any personality disorders*

I looked into this early in my "why" journey. The way I understand EQ is that it your ability to manage emotions, understand them, etc. These things can be learned and applied at any time with the interest to do so. My EQ was at its lowest before, during, and just after my affair. It wasn't always that low but I think this is where compartmentalizing came into play, to kinda snuff my emotions and rationale. As I unpacked those compartments my EQ naturally went up again.

But too, and I'm no expert on this subject, I think it can be affected by extreme situational experiences. Like, in a matter of minutes plummet. I like to think on a good day I've mastered my emotions, on a bad day, I know I struggle with certain emotions. Like anger. My teenage son tests that on a weekly basis. I have to really slow my roll and even when I try it's still not always enough.

So, not based on research but, instead, based on personal experience and perspective:

Virtually all waywarda would score low on EQ.

High EQ requires empathy-- real empathy. The kind of empathy that is so much a part of you that it's just "built in" to your perspective and the way you see the world and the way you deal with others.

EQ is about how we navigate social situations, and the savviest way to navigate is to understand others.
Understanding others even helps us draw healthy boundaries for ourselves.

EQ also requires people to see the BIG picture in social situations: Here's me and my motives, attitudes, and behaviors.
Here's you and your motives and attitudes and behaviors.
Here are the other people with the same.
How does this all play out as we mix in the big picture?

In contrast, betrayal requires a great deal of self-centeredness.
Betrayal usually requires people to compartmentalize and ignore the big picture about the destructive impacts of their choices and actions on others, in order to continue making self-centered and destructive choices.

Cheaters turn off, turn down, or ignore empathy.

They compartmentalize their choices and actions so that they can ignore big-picture impacts.

Narcissists don't have to turn off or turn down empathy because they lack that filter anyway.

IMO, low EQ is common among cheaters.

This gives me great pause as I watch my fWH's progress through personal growth. Can he develop empathy that becomes a huge part of how he filters situations and choices?
Can he be aware when his brain wants him to compartmentalize and, instead, keep looking at big-picture impacts that involve others?

Believe me; I have asked myself whether or not my husband--while he seems to be trying--is capable of this growth.

I'm rooting for him (not just because it would benefit us, but because it would also benefit HIM a great deal). Yet, I'm also trying to ensure that I see what IS, and not just what I hope there is in him.

As part of the manager functions for a position, I had to read Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Dr. Bradberry & Greaves. There's a before & after exam where you can see where you fit & some things you can do to improve where you're low. It was over 5 years ago when I did the reading/training session, so some of it's a little fuzzy. The book breaks the EQ into 4 different areas, and you get a score for each one.

It is about having good boundaries, empathy, communication and ethics.

As I was reading it (pre-A), some if the topics discussed were no-brainer to me. The book covers some scenarios and ask how you would react/respond, and then your answers lead to your score. The book also discusses what a person with high EQ would do versus what a person with mid- or low EQ would do.

Emotional intelligence is something that comes naturally to some people but it absolutely can be taught.

My boyfriend struggled with EQ issues when we started dating and realized that was just the way he had been raised. But once we discussed the issue in the open, he realized it was something that not only he could change, but that he wanted to change.

He still is working on some things (he has difficulty especially with mirroring emotions) but the amount of improvement I've seen in him over the past 3 years has been amazing.

He has never cheated but I don't think our relationship would have survived without the self work he did. I found it too difficult to get through to him about emotional issues around the end of our first year together. Now? I'm really proud of him, and I've told him so. He didn't change because I gave him an ultimatum or anything like that. He told me he decided to do the work because he agreed it would be a positive change for himself long term whether we stayed together or not.

But the idea of just saying well someone has low EQ so they can't be who you need them to be is just a copout. They choose not to do the work to become a more emotionally intelligent person because they don't care enough and change is hard.

So basically the MC is saying your wife doesn’t give a crap.

Duh!! Describes almost all cheaters IMO.

Can you get her to care? Doubtful. But maybe you need to start addressing if this is the type of person you want to stay married to.

I believe my H has low EQ as a result of being somewhere on the (higher functioning) autism spectrum, think Asberger's syndrome before they removed that designation. He is trying. True empathy just does not come naturally, I don't think he is capable of really getting it.

He felt lots of sympathy for his various OW. He saw me as the evil bitch as a way to justify what he was doing.

He is doing absolutely everything he can to be a safe partner. But it's true that he will never be, and has never been that person I thought he was. I'm resigned to that and terribly sad when I allow myself to think of it.
He isn't a bad person. He does get it that he damaged me and that damage won't just disappear. He is regretful that his actions ruined what could have been an amazing partnership.

He has learned to behave in empathetic ways. That is all I see that he's capable of. He feels extreme guilt and shame, but cannot allow that to overwhelm him or he could slide back into old behavior.

Pretty sure both my XWs were very lacking in empathy and compassion. Both had moms who were extremely cold, narcissistic. One MIL once described how she felt Nicole Brown Simpson got what she deserved for failing to detect OJ Simpson's real personality ( can't make this stuff up). My then wife was in agreement.

Cheaters strike me as being very selfish people with low morals. Is that low EQ?

The therapist didn’t mean it as an insult to my wife or as an excuse. I’m not accepting this an excuse either. But I’m also not willing to dismiss it either. While we’re discussing some issues in the marriage, we came upon certain scenarios that my WS was just totally baffled and really couldn’t articulate what she was thinking or even wanting to say. Almost like a state of confusion and she couldn’t process the questions being asked. I feel I’m "normal" and these types of questions came natural to me like some of you have stayed as well.

There had been times before we even started counseling that I could tell something was just off with her. She is a very intelligent person, as she scored higher than me on our college entrance exam. Sometimes she had trouble processing information as related to certain situations that would involve some level of deep thinking. I’m a deep person and this would cause an argument between us because I just couldn’t believe someone would not "just know" the common answers or reasoning that I perceived a "normal person" should know.

Our therapist stated my wife may not be able to be the person I’m wanting on an emotionally level because of my high demand and relentless pursuit of understanding the affair in black and white terms.
I’m just trying to turn over every stone to be better equipped in handling the MC.

Ok, so you've identified a real problem that she needs to work on. And a troubling quandary for the future of your marriage from your perspective. Where do you go from here? Clearly THIS therapist isn't going to be of much help if they have already given up and imply you're to blame for having standards. Emotional processing is teachable. Empathy is teachable to an extent. Sure, she may never deeply feel empathy but she can at least learn how to comfort someone and sound empathetic. She could reach a place of safety as a spouse if she's willing to put in that hard work. So could you live with that? And at what point of her not "getting it" will be the sign that you need to throw in the towel and move on for your own sanity?

Has your MC identified any reasons why she may have low EQ like other mental health issues, upbringing, or a personality disorder? Because that too greatly impacts how likely she will be to learn how to be a good spouse for you.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 10:06 PM, Thursday, February 10th]

I had a similar conversation with a therapist shortly after D-day. I said that to stay in the marriage, I needed my husband to be curious about his emotions and want to understand them and himself more deeply.

One example I gave was that my husband would drive aggressively and get short-tempered and frustrated at small inconveniences at times. Otherwise he would drive normally. When he did it, I would mention that he's clearly upset about something else. He would say he's not and that other people were driving like idiots. Then he'd be snapping at me and our children over minor irritations next. It was at the point where I didn't want to live with that after D-day.

The therapist told me that I was looking for was introspection and self-awareness. These are part of EQ. She said she felt certain people could develop it, but others could not and that time would tell which one he was. He had years of therapy with multiple therapists. Part of it was just identifying and naming emotions and feelings and what part of the body they existed in. Part was catching the feeling when they first came up. With FOO issues, you often learn the coping skills of stuffing uncomfortable feelings. Understand and identifying those feelings in yourself is part of empathy. I think that's a similar concept as others saying that a wayward needs to learn to love themselves first.

Anyway, yes these things can be taught I believe. I remember re-reading the Emotional Intelligence books after I had children. The original experiments were done on children, and there were suggestions on how EQ is learned.

My IC once asked me if I was willing to compromise if my WH was unable to face his shame and answer my questions/talk about the A. My answer was a flat NO! Isn't that what therapy is for? To look at those parts of you that you don't want to look at and try to become a better person?

Empathy can be learned! Almost anything can be learned if you really want it bad enough! I was absolutely unwilling to go back to the pre-A M where he would minimize my feelings, was selfish, flat out told me he was not going to meet my needs (since they had 0 to do with having sex), and DARVO'd me until I backed down and shut up! Nope, he steps up to the plate or we're done.

Honestly, the IC didn't like my answer, tried to get me to come around, but I shut that down quick. While in MC, I did the same thing whenever the MC would try and soften something for him. Sorry, but you were man enough to f***k some slut, you can be man enough to work on yourself, even if you don't like what you see. In fact, all the more reason to change it!

Of course, I don't know your WW, her background, her personality, etc. Only you know her more than we do, and more than the MC does I would imagine. Only you know if this is valid, but it seems that most here agree, EQ levels can be elevated. There just has to be the motivation to do so. And if she tries and fails, well, at least she tried. But to give her an excuse to not even bother, that really sounds like a red flag to me.

Neko-
Yes the therapist is diving into her childhood and the way her mother was. I knew some of things about her mother and the way she parented but had no idea what the home life was in detail. I had a low opinion of my MIL prior to therapy and it’s even lower now. And the personality issues is something we are exploring also. Our MC I asked that very question- what am I able to live with? The MC isn’t giving a death sentence to the marriage. I understood her comment as I was expecting a certain degree from my wife and that while she may work on getting better she may never reach or exceed a level that would be considered "normal" for me.

Humantrampoline-
Thanks for sharing your personal experience. I see a lot of similarities. Some scary shit really. Therapist has my wife keeping a journal about trying to identify emotions throughout the day and how they made her feel. Things that seem so basic to us.

Linus-
My MIL is a real piece of shit that no one would be proud to call Mom. She left my wife and FIL when my wife was 9 yrs old to go to another state to meet a man. She got pregnant and called my FIL to come get her and he has that child as his own for over 30 years now. And then shortly after my wife and I married, she took off again and left my FIL taking care of my wife’s 2 sisters while she went out and frolicked with god knows what. To this day, my wife and MIL have a very distant relationship. The basically only see each other on holidays and I expect that shit to come to an end after what I’ve learned about her through this therapy.

Thanks to all who have shared and all who have commented. I appreciate the feedback as we only go to MC every 2 weeks so this helps in so many ways.

Is your WW on the spectrum? Am asking this, as people with Asperger's tend to have lower EQ.

Looking back at some of your Pain Shopping thread, it also looks like your WW seems to be able to disconnect herself from 'reality (e.g. going back to see her AP to see if she could rekindle feelings, but could not give you an answer why).

The behaviour that she seems to be exhibiting (garnered from what you have posted), she may benefit from getting a diagnosis if she has condition. This might help you plan your future.

we came upon certain scenarios that my WS was just totally baffled and really couldn’t articulate what she was thinking or even wanting to say. Almost like a state of confusion and she couldn’t process the questions being asked.

Good Lord! Are you SURE you weren’t talking with my WH? I think i got it before dday, but didn’t see it as a red flag (he’s tired, he’s stressed, there’s so much going on in our day-to-day, etc). After dday, took a pretty different view about how lacking he was in EQ. After the suicide attempt it was kind of scary to see the blankness in his eyes.

Rather than embrace the things he could learn, he would shame spiral/ self denigrate about it all… a constant theme was "I’m sixty-x years old and I have to use a damn feelings chart". So, his energy went into how effed up he was rather than how much room there was for growth (or, that his glass was 1/2 empty…)

Like others describe, my WH had a pretty overbearing mom and a good amount of FOO early trauma (dad died when WH was very young, MIL not well educated and worked 7 days/week to put food on table for 3 kids, so was barely able to address/provide for their physical/educational needs, let alone emotional ones). He was basically alone/on his own until we M (I was the first woman he’d lived with - and he was in mid/late 30s at the time). I think he learned to live solely in his own mind, to bury most positive emotion and ALL negative emotion, and to lie about anything and everything, VERY early on.

Assuming there’s no personality disorder or some specific neurological issues (eg the autism spectrum) I really do believe that people can learn and change and grow, even WRT EQ, IF THEY WANT TO. But maybe I’m just pie in the sky on that front. I’ve read that empathy def can … and def can NOT be learned, nurtured, grown, but that’s why I qualified with the ‘no personality disorder’, as I dunno if, say, a sociopath is capable of that (and would argue I believe there’s something in that ‘wiring’ that’s amiss, but I don’t even play a therapist on TV, so…🤷‍♀️)

I do know that my WH has DEEP discomfort about feelings. If he has to share a feeling (and it is a RARITY in the 4 years since dday- even including the period after the suicide when he was doing intensive outpatient - I can prob count my own fingers & toes how many times he’s shared feelings) it’s like this huge dramatic thing. I mean stop the presses, roll out the carpet, harken the fanfare trumpeters, cuz WH has something to say! His whole demeanor is solemn & serious as a heart attack. Then he’ll get tongue twisted, requiring a very level of patience through VERY long pauses. If I ask anything - even what seems to me to be a pretty benign clarification - he clams up and goes into shame or just shuts down. It is simultaneously heartbreaking and frustrating as all get out. Don’t get me wrong, I was NOT perfect and had my own walls built around emotion, yet I did express and share, often with a level of fanfare on par with whether we needed eggs on my next Costco run.

For me, this lack of EQ (or whatever you want to call it) means he’s just not a safe partner (and the lack of empathy is truly astounding). Maybe he’s completely incapable and my ideas about the plasticity of our neurons & thoughts & emotions is way off base. Maybe he just doesn’t really want it. Either way, dday and my own journey have made it pretty clear that it’s a threshold issue for me to commit to R and is not something about which I am willing/able to compromise.

Therapist has my wife keeping a journal about trying to identify emotions throughout the day and how they made her feel. Things that seem so basic to us.

My WH has gotten this assignment as well. In year one he probably wrote 2-3x a month, but sometimes with large gaps. Then after his suicide attempt, he was in an induced coma & we didn’t think he’d make it, I read the damn thing (when he recovered I had to tell him what I’d done and set some boundaries about that, which ain’t easy with a suicidal WS). It was almost entirely a recitation of facts (eg: GMC keeps asking me questions and I can’t answer” or “GMC and I went to dinner, and I said X and she cried on the way home”) and virtually devoid of introspection and emotion (i.e., NOTHING like “I feel angry after dinner with GMC bc X”, or “I am afraid to answer questions”).

After he started with a CSAT, the journaling feelings was more specific and exactly what you describe for your WS. I see him write it maybe once or twice a year (and I think he’s been with the CSAT for 2 yrs), which creates its own quagmire: do we create an accountability system to ensure they don’t blow it off? Or do we keep in our own lane and let them suffer the consequences? I’m in the latter camp, as I’m not his mom and he’s responsible for his choices to listen to his CSAT and do the homework or not. But if I were trying to R, I may feel inclined to expect that he check in with his therapist about it. I dunno - just speculating, I guess.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 5:02 AM, Saturday, February 12th]

GMC- you just said everything I’ve been trying to convey in this post!!

I’m not excusing her affair by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry if this comes off as policy is ally incorrect or if it offends anybody but sometimes I feel like a bully beating up on a handicapped kid. I expect normal, if not rationale, conversation with her and like you said- she has a blankness on her face and then is searching for words. Our MC also said my wife doesn’t have the vocabulary to express her emotions.

I don’t think the MC is rug sweeping. I’ve been surprised and actually happy the way she has taken my wife to task on the affair. Low EQ or not, my wife made the choice to cheat. I’m not sure how much of a role the EQ played in that choice but I’m more interested in knowing the type of person I’m trying to R with and what that future may look like.

I’ve reread your reply like 5x now and it’s shocking how similar our WS’s are and the situation in general. Thanks so much for your reply.

I like where you seem to be netting out, that the eq factors have a role in how R proceeds that is important. It does seem like all WS "present as" low eq during an affair in one way or another, even if they actually have high eq to begin with.

The trouble with eq research is people tend to throw everything in a large bucket and call it eq. Some core skills people associate with eq are very learnable: listening, communicating empathy. Some things are more diffcult to learn and require a lot of one on one support to do it: understanding your own emotion, communicating your emotions to others and understanding how you impact others emotionally. It sounds like your wife struggles with these issues. I do think the needle can be moved with consistent effort, counseling, openness and receiving quality feedback. But it doesn't move easily for the majority of people.

I always referred to it as lack of empathy. Hadn't heard of emotional intelligence or EQ prior to MC. Regardless one of the key indicators for low-self-esteem / narcissism.

Our MC said the same as yours. She also said that she could counsel stbxWW for decades and it wouldn't make a difference in her habit of thinking of herself first in all matters. Apparently the result of the trauma of her family breaking apart when she was young.

MC said that stbxWW could learn to compensate. In other words, recognize what she was doing and at least put on a show for the sake of others. She told me this is what all people do in various aspects of life - compensate with actions to overcome one's natural tendencies.

Though we are splitting, I must say that she at least has put on a good show (don't know if sincere) of putting others first in matters where she previously wouldn't have given a damn. But my gut always tells me there is a "me, me, me" angle to everything - and for me that is too much after so much time and so looking at D.

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 3:10 PM, Friday, February 11th]

Rocket- I was thinking the same thing with the disconnect from reality. It’s been a shit show for sure. I will definitely ask the MC about being on the spectrum. Thanks for mentioning it.

Ttrd- I honestly don’t know what to expect at this point. I’m trying my best to separate the affair from the EQ. Not trying to give any credence to it as an excuse but now I feel I’m working on 2 different problems. Like some stated earlier, it’s on my WS to do the work but if I want R to work I have to separate the 2 so I can be supportive on her efforts to gain some EQ. But then also, I’m supposed be doing the 180 and right now I don’t know whether to shit or wind my watch.

One of the things that I see over and over, on the topic of infidelity- The assumption that waywards will somehow wake up and "get it" if they are told magic words by IC or in a book.

I don't really think that's true (in most cases), for a number of reasons.

To start with, a sizeable % of the population is simply unintelligent. When you look at attempts to quantify intelligence, like IQ, there is direct correlation to IQ and behavior. As the IQ goes up, people begin to demonstrate certain characteristics like the ability to comprehend nuance, to apply critical thinking skills to problems, to understand long term goals and consequences, to appreciate delayed gratification, long term planning, to see the world as a big place with other people being impacted by events, and so on. The opposite is also true...with the lower end of the IQ scale, you see people who live only in the moment. They exist in a seemingly primal level of "I'm hungry, horny, angry, sleepy". They lack reasoning skills, so they simply turn that ability off. They fail to maintain their home, life, finances...because long term just isn't their thing.

Add in personality types, personality disorders, mental health...

All in all, it seems that mate selection should be fine tuned a bit if you want a good partner. It needs to include intelligence, mental health, ability to comprehend the above and self analyze, and so on.

The thing about IQ, that is both tragic and real- You can't really fix it. It is largely genetic. You can bump it a few points by going to better schools, improving nutrition...but not much. It makes me think that a lot of waywards are simply not fixable. They are who they are, genetically...and that's who they will always revert to.

When I look at waywards speaking and their BSs describing their actions...I see a lot of inability to see long term damage, long term consequences, long term planning that was destroyed and the fallout of loss of $$$ like retirement, healthcare, housing, schools, children damaged by divorce...and so on. While this doesn't apply to all waywards...it seems like many of them are simply on the lower end of the IQ spectrum with the correlation of negative behavior traits including low EQ.

Note, this doesn't mean they haven't attended college or been officially "educated"...

You can't fix that in IC. You are reading poetry to pigs...they can't understand it.

A lemon is a lemon. If you end up with a lemon of a car...best bet is usually to just dump it. Most waywards seem like lemons.