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YOU didn't imply the body ownership part, no. But that implication IS here in this thread. My disagreement with these particular kinds of threads is simply that they seem to say the ONLY way for a ww to show that 'effort' to their BH is by being sexy and thin and dtf at any time, or otherwise she is not doing R. And I am saying that if a person is 'getting fit' solely to make someone else be happy with them or to fulfill someone else's expectations, then IMHO (as a person who has struggled with this for 30 fucking years) that is NOT healthy in any way whatsoever. A woman feeling like she owes a man her body for whatever reason is NOT HEALTHY. (And my perspective on this is as a person who has in the past felt like I owed it to others to look a certain way or achieve a certain weight so others would be happy with me - and that is not a healthy frame of mind and won't help me in my weight-loss goals.)

This a fat shaming.

A WW that lost weight and went to the GYM to look good

for her OM.

Now her BH wanting her to look that good for him as she did

for her OM is not fat shaming. That is a BH saying give me

as good as you gave the OM.

This BH is not asking for something that his WW could never

do. She has already done it for another man. Her OM.

her BH wants her to lose that weight

She should act like you're a stranger she wants to impress or who she needs to put a face on for?

You know, women don't generally wear make up to impress men. They do it to feel more confident. Same as clothes, shoes, and accessories. It's about confidence, and really more about being confident in the company of other women than about being confident with men. So, what you're essentially complaining about is that your WW isn't so insecure with you as she is when she's around other people.

You are stating that it ok for a woman to only impress those

she wants to.

I will not argue that.

Though according to your logic it is ok for a WW to make

herself look better for her OM than her BH.

And wrong for her BH to expect the same effort. That shows

a WW that only looks at her BH as her plan B income

provider.

This focus on "what the AP got" is just an indicator that some people aren't happy with their R decision if you ask me. For people who are still absorbing the shock and loss of discovering an affair, yeah.. I get it. But that aspect, along with so many others like focusing on calendar dates or having mind movies, eventually HEALS. If you let it. If you're proactive about it. If you're doing R for the right reasons. But when shit like that is still bugging you YEARS after signing on for R, IMHO you're stuck, not accepting and not standing by your own decision... and not in true and loving R.

I see people who stayed for the "complications" (read "the wrong reasons") and all they do is pick their WS apart and bitch about it, like they aren't 100% responsible for their decision to STAY with someone they no longer love.

Yup.

Are you crazy? LOL

I'd rather take a bullet to the head than bring such stuff up to her. After years of trying and having it always spun around to blame me I quit.

You remain in a M with an unremorseful Wayward. That she doesn't put as much effort into her appearance for you as she did the AP is just a minor symptom. She never did the work she needed to reconcile, so I can imagine the bitterness you feel. Personally to me as a BS no complication is worth living that life.

I will NEVER give anal to my wh ever again. Given the opportunity to explore he got rough, almost violent. A result of to much fucking porn and whatever his APs gave him. Nope. Never again. BJs. Nope again. He knew i hated it, did it for him anyways because i loved him and yet he fucked and got bjs from multiple other woman. Hes lucky if he even gets laid at all these days and rightly so. Im not a blow up doll. He either shows me the respect and affection i deserve as his wife and a human being or he can jerk himself off till the cows come home. Frankly i don't give a shit.

Not diminishing what you went through as BW and how it

has effected you sex life.

Though wrongly equated what a BW goes through as being

the same as a BH goes through. Not saying the BW has less

pain. Your WH never got anything from his OW than what

he got with you. He also never gave his OW anything that

he refused to do with you.

BW can never see the difference between them and a BH.

They minimize that the OM got more than the BH to make

it appear that the issue of the OM getting more then the BH

to be trivial.

Oldtruck there are a ton of threads here on SI by BW's whose WH's gave more brio to their AP than to their wives. No matter whether it's specific sex acts, or sexual preparation (such as getting in shape, sexy lingerie, and/or grooming the nethers), or fancy gifts/vacations, we often see the WS going above and beyond for the AP, but not the BS.

For a lot of us, this is difficult or impossible to overcome.

They minimize that the OM got more than the BH to make

it appear that the issue of the OM getting more then the BH

to be trivial.

Its not trivial. Just unachievable.

Its been asked before, when is more enough?

If the ww never gave these things to the bh before the affair why wasn't this brought up as a marital issue? I am not blaming you. Im asking why ýou would remain in an unhappy marriage getting less than what you want.

If there was something i wasn't happy about i wasn't going to shut up about it. How would he ever know and how would the issue ever be resolved?

Now post affair it seems that the main focus is getting everything plus more than the AP and as evident by these threads over and over its just not something that's an easy fix.

Your healing is up to you but you'll never heal if all you ever do is compare yourself to the AP.

Look, sometimes I just wasn't feelin it. Sometimes I had cramps or was bloaty. Sometimes I just wasn't in the headspace where sexytime was something I wanted to do just then. Sometimes when my xwh would wake me up out of a dead sleep at 2am wanting to get frisky when I had to be up to go to work in 3 hours I wasn't feelin it.

Comparing apples to oranges. Having an off day. Not feeling

it one day is not the same as the WW never giving her BH

what she gave her OM.

And how convenient to claim it is my body excuse so I do not

have to anything I want, calling old fashioned to claim that a

husband and wife become one. While ignoring the conflict

with either spouse withholding sex. So your position is that

it ok for a wife to withhold sex in her marriage.

So when is it enough? If the A only went on for 3 weeks, does the Wayward partner have to jump thru hoops for 3 weeks? 6 weeks? The rest of their life?

If every time the WW saw her AP she went down on him, does that mean that she needs to go down on you every time she sees you? How do you find this balance?

What is the scale? Is it necessary to keep a checklist or do you just remind the wayward partner that they are constantly not doing enough? Not jumping high enough, not responding quickly enough? What a difficult way to live day to day

You incorrectly imply that the actual number of times is what

is important.

The issue is the lack of effort, lack of equivalent effort.

So your position is that

it ok for a wife to withhold sex in her marriage.

It is okay for a WOMAN to withhold sex FOR ANY REASON and she does not have to justify, rationalize, explain, or excuse that to anyone. I don't give a flying fuck if I am married or dating or having a one night stand, I STILL don't OWE it to my partner to do whatever he wants whenever he wants.

Maybe in olden days when women HAD to be married to achieve social standing or be taken care of this shit would fly. But not today.

If a BH has the dtf condition as part of R - that is totally fine. The BH gets to set whatever conditions are important to him. But a woman still doesn't owe her body to anyone for any reason. If the BH doesn't get what he wants or needs for R, then he should file and be done with it.

It is okay for a WOMAN to withhold sex FOR ANY REASON and she does not have to justify, rationalize, explain, or excuse that to anyone. I don't give a flying fuck if I am married or dating or having a one night stand, I STILL don't OWE it to my partner to do whatever he wants whenever he wants.

Yep 100%

It is okay for a WOMAN to withhold sex FOR ANY REASON and she does not have to justify, rationalize, explain, or excuse that to anyone. I don't give a flying fuck if I am married or dating or having a one night stand, I STILL don't OWE it to my partner to do whatever he wants whenever he wants.

Ditto.

I STILL don't OWE it to my partner to do whatever he wants whenever he wants.

True, and to the point of R, I don't think a WS doing things grudgingly out of a sense of obligation works (in general). R works if the WS wants to do these things. In the end, it boils down to desire, or, more specifically, the BS's perception of the WS's level of desire for the AP vis-a-vis the BS.

The specific acts, and the brio with which they are performed, those are merely a barometer of desire.

When these types of threads pop up, it's interesting now having been on the other side of the fence that I have a lot more feelings about it.

The WS work entails becoming less selfish, more empathetic, healthier, safer, a better overall spouse. I felt like it was my job to understand what my husband needs to feel loved and then consistently and actively love him. There isn't a relationship book out there that I have read that hasn't underlined how sex plays a part in that. I have always had a hard time understanding why these conversations go awry.

I understand that the WS heals WS, the BS heals BS, and together they heal the relationship. I also know from very painful experiences that I as the WS could not heal my husband. BUT I can also say that all the things I did to heal the relationship were with intentions of things being different more permanently.

I do think that when it comes to body autonomy, I am 100 percent behind that. But, I will also say that on the wish lists of most BH here is that their wife pursues them. I also think that's on the list of most BW's here as well. If we asked BH's and BW's what pursuing them means you would get very different responses. We have very different experiences in our genders and even though we would like to compare them they are not really the same. Gender differences are real.

Pursuit of another man entailed that I take great care of my looks. It was part of the effort of that pursuit. Most relationships really start that way. Not really out of servitude but out of wanting to be the best you can be for that other person is it's own inspiration. You want them to be attracted to you. Men do certain things in courtship that women want. If women did those things that men do to pursue they would fall flat because they aren't the things men want or translate into caring or romantic gestures. We are wired differently, and we are trained basically by society of what those things are.

As we have been married for decades, that didn't mean as the WS I wore make up all the time or had to lose weight for my husband. I didn't lose my comfort of being ugly on a Sunday and binge watching a show alone or together. But, it did mean that I needed to pursue him on some consistent basis. That meant that I needed to get ready for our dates - both from planning but also by putting on clothes I knew he would like, make up, fixing my hair, etc. It also meant that I needed to initiate sex more often and be less passive in that way. NOT because that's what he is demanding but because he needed me to pursue him.

As a remorseful WS, you are basically dating your husband again and hoping he will choose you. AND you put yourself in that position. You are in that position probably for life - but in my estimation you probably should have been in that position to begin with. What I mean by that is I let the relationship slip, and then I shit all over it by cheating and blaming that relationship that I helped create. However, I think that you really should pursue your spouse your entire marriage. So, I don't really understand what people mean by "for how long". I think the answer is forever, but that doesn't mean being perfect every day, and it doesn't mean you can't go without makeup or eat all your birthday cake if you want to. It's more about the consistency of working on you and your relationship.

Now as a BS, I resent some of these the notions quite a lot. I am pretty shut down sexually. Pursuing him in the ways he needs at this point is not on my to do list. I tried to keep it up, but there is nothing really driving me right now that is sincere or organic. T He made me not know if I wanted him. Maybe not literally, I am here trying but that's all I have bandwidth for right now.

I think what I am trying to say is that as the WS I was motivated to pursue him and the efforts on my looks or sexually were not burdens to me. As a BS, this does become a burden because I have a man who has made himself unattractive to me. Maybe in all this madness, we will both make it a priority to pursue and attract the other, and I can't wait to see what kind of relationship that could possibly be. I don't think it's sustainable if we require perfection, but not ever losing full site of that is the goal.

I have decided that if we divorce, that's probably it for me. I can't keep translating the way I feel into a way the other person understands. I think at some point my give a shit is just busted on this. These are gender differences that I accept, but it doesn't mean I have to participate.

All this to say - as a WS I didn't feel put upon to try to improve our sexual relationship or to try and help him gain more attraction for me again. As the BS I do feel like this is a burden because it didn't work the first time, did it?.

I resent the sexual energy he gave her, and to porn, and the importance of sex in general. Him putting more emphasis on that now is highly triggering to me.

As for is it okay for a woman (or man) to withhold sex? I read once you can't really withhold something another person is not entitled to. As a BH, I think he was more entitled to ask for all the things he wanted. I always had autonomy to say no (and sometimes did), but was more willing to stretch in pursuit of him.

Now that he is also a WS, he is still entitled to have needs, I am just less motivated or consistent right now due to his actions. I think not having sex with your spouse is fine, but only on a temporary basis. Long term if it's the goal of both people to have a healthy, strong relationship, physical intimacy is a very important part of that. They don't call it "glue" for nothing.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:05 PM, February 22nd (Monday)]

I don't screw who I don't want to.PERIOD. FULL STOP. END OF DISCUSSION. SAME for BH. If he can't stomach touching her for whatever reason then he doesn't have to. If he is feeling emasculated..then he doesn't owe his wife sex to make her feel better.

True, and to the point of R, I don't think a WS doing things grudgingly out of a sense of obligation works (in general). R works if the WS wants to do these things. In the end, it boils down to desire, or, more specifically, the BS's perception of the WS's level of desire for the AP vis-a-vis the BS.

The specific acts, and the brio with which they are performed, those are merely a barometer of desire.

Very well said BFTG. And I do agree with this for sure!

I would also add that a BS bears some responsibility for managing their perceptions too. I know that was true for me. It was a part of my own healing that I had to come to grips with - was what he was willing to do going to be 'enough' for me? In my case, that was a no. And unfair as it is, that part wasn't on him, it was my choice and my call that I was not going to be able to stay in a relationship where that effort wasn't made to my satisfaction. It was a hard gut-wrenching decision to come to, but it was the right one for me.

So your position is that

it ok for a wife to withhold sex in her marriage.

Oh, this is where we're at now?

It's not just wayward wives with no sexual agency, but all wives?

Aight.

and fat people have shorter, more sedentary and unhappy lives.

again, how is fat = worse? you just put a value on something and other people may not have YOUR value system. Why do you get to do that?

My wife and I met as seniors in high school. It was truly love at first sight for me.

At that time, I was a superstar athlete, wrestling and football, with a rock hard hardbody. I had many sexual partners by that point in time, including several "adult" women who pursued me. Pretty much all of them were extremely attractive physically, as I literally had my pick, but there was none I really fell for.

My wife at that time was stunningly gorgeous with a beautiful body. But what attracted me physically was her sparkling eyes and her beautiful smile. What actually really attracted me was her personality and our common background. We had both had horrible parents who were physically abusive and just awful childhoods.

What I did not know at the time was that she had struggled with weight problems off on and on throughout her childhood and teens. To that point, I had never ever had any weight issues, probably due to my metabolism and extreme levels of physical activity.

Anyway, my parents had kicked me out long before I graduated high school. As soon as we graduated, we moved in together. We were married less than a year later when we were both 18. We both still looked great.

I did not know at the time but my wife (then girlfriend) had two affairs while we were living together but before we married.

Over the next five or so years, I stayed in great shape. I added about 15 pounds but it was all muscle and mostly the transformation of my body from a teenager to an adult male.

My wife, on the other hand, gained a good bit of weight after we married. It was mostly from having babies and becoming a little more sedentary. I did not care at all. I still adored her because her body shape was not who she was or what I loved about her anyway.

At about the seven year mark in our marriage, I entered a doctoral study program at a major university in a state far from where we lived. I went ahead to find us a place and get us set up. She followed about two and a half months later. During that time, she worked hard to surprise me with a large weight loss and reconditioning. When she arrived, she looked almost like she did way back in high school when we met.

Several months later, she had her third affair. (I still did not know about the first two.) I caught her. We "worked it out" by sweeping it under the rug. Bad mistake. At that time, she did not tell me everything, lied about some of the details, and still did not reveal the old affairs even though I specifically asked and she claimed she "told me everything."

Then she gained a bunch of weight back. I told her that I was pissed because she lost wait for her AP but made no effort for me. She reminded me that she had lost the weight for me and that the affair came later. She was right. I realized that I was pissed, but not for what I thought was pissing me off. It was really about the betrayal and the building resentment that had no outlet since I was "not allowed" to mention the affair.

At about the twenty year mark of our marriage, her guilt had gotten the best of her and she decided to tell me everything, including the first two affairs and some pretty terrible details about the third affair. I was again told to never bring it up again. She also started treating me like crap and kept it up for another couple of decades.

By that time, I had gained about 55 additional pounds, and not in any good way. I now knew what it was like to have weight issues, but because of all the bad feelings and resentment I really did not care. I was mostly staying for my kids and out of fear of the unknown.

In the last five years, I have lost a huge amount of weight due to some health scares involving diabetes, cholesterol, and blood pressure. I now am just one size bigger than my high school days. I no longer have the teenage star athlete build, but I think I look really good, as do many others.

My wife never really lost her weight.

I thought that bothered me. I thought it was part of my bad feelings towards her.

But about maybe two years ago she had an epiphany because I finally sought therapy, finally stood up for myself, and was just about out the door. She then became sincerely remorseful and empathetic. It is sincere as it has been consistent over a long period of time now.

I have since truly forgiven her. My resentment is gone. I love her again, although it is not exactly the same as before. I have realized that I was not really upset about the weight as I now greatly enjoy her again, physically as well as emotionally. I had simply repressed my deepest feelings and focused on something on the surface.

I now exercise every day due to my health concerns and also the fact that I enjoy exercising. She sometimes asks to join me, which I love because not only is it good for her but I love when we do things together. But I never push it nor do I ever say anything about her weight. That is partly because that seems insensitive but mostly because I honestly and truly do not care about it. I love her for who she is and not her physical appearance. After all, I have lost hair and she has not and I have a lot more wrinkles.

I don't relate at all to some of these views on marriage.

- Nobody should be coerced into sex.

-There should be no outside imposed obligation for sex.

It is a fact, as everyone on SI is painfully aware, that humans are sexual animals. Sexuality is innate to our being. Yes, some people are asexual, just as some people are atypical in other ways. The typical person is a sexual being.

A monogamous marriage is a commitment to be exclusive. Among other exclusivities, you have CHOSEN one person to be sexually exclusive and they have CHOSEN you in the same way. Nobody forced sexual exclusivity on you. You chose this exclusivity and you have likely asked the same from your husband/wife. Now that you are sexually exclusive, that means you now have one stop for human sexual interaction, just as they have one stop. You're exclusive: there are no sexual choices anymore.

Does that chosen sexual exclusivity create any sort of commitments to care about your partners sexual satisfaction and needs? I'd say it does create this commitment - a mutual bargain/agreement. Now, you can break this agreement. Either by failing to be exclusive or by withholding sex from your partners only sexual choice (or doing both of these actions). Both of these choices are willfully harming your partner and betraying the agreement to exclusivity. By saying you would be exclusive, you also said you'd try to be a sexual partner for them. If you can't, or won't, then your choice to betray the commitment needs to be up front and honest. Not a sneaky ideological play about women's self ownership - a strawman argument.

Nobody is saying you don't own your body. But to say that a willfully chosen commitment is some sort of on-going state of servitude and sexual slavery is nonsense. Don't give a sh*t about your partner's sexual needs, that is a choice you can make. But to then claim that betrayal of the marriage is some sort of celebration of women's emancipation is utter baloney.