SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

GoldenR....

Wow. So the least competition gets you to leave the field? You compete(d) for new women, who had no one knows who many partners, but you won't for your WW, whose number you know?

There is no competition if you didn't know you were playing in the first place. I not only would not, but could not compete with the women half my age my XWH cheated on me with. Why would I want to? It is beneath my dignity.

DevestatedDee

Nice comment. Sisoon's suggestion that a betrayed spouse compete for a wayward was out of line on multiple levels.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 3:19 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

And, I agree with RIO. It was going to be impossible for me to ever have a sex life worth mentioning again after DDay no matter what else happened. I have no idea whether or not the sex was "better", but I know it was with very young women who do not possess the c-section scars and such. I had the pleasure of finding their profiles online as well. I don't care how good I look for my age, I have nothing on a 21-year-old. It is what it is. Just knowing that's what he wanted and was getting while he was sharing a bed with me at twice that age was enough to dry me up like the Sahara.

Wow, this went on for a while, I had to work. LOL. I only have a few minutes so I quickly skimmed. I would like to respond to this:

Remorse makes the wayward see someone they once thought they loved as repulsive.

I don't know if it's remorse that does that part. I do see him as repulsive, but I think that the reason I find him repulsive is because I understand the reality of the affair now. I understand that I willfully had an affair with a man who was a serial cheater. I knew he was. I can think of some of the things he said to me to manipulate me and my feelings.

Remorse to me is about what I did to my husband. Feeling what you did to someone else. Regret or guilt is about how you feel about what you did to yourself. I think that seeing him as repulsive has to do with my own regret of allowing him to use me. I can say remorse would include seeing him as someone who also hurt my husband, but I don't see this as a full product of remorse only.

Remorse makes the wayward see sex with their AP that they once thought as good as repulsive.

I agree with this. I do see it as repulsive. The thing that can not be erased is I know at the time I was a disgusting person getting high. So, of course I liked getting high at the time I was doing it. Saying I did not like it while I, myself, was in a wayward mentality (using that as shorthand for all it entails) is RE-WRITING history. I was a filthy pig wallowing in mud, but filthy pigs love mud ;-)

Remorse destroys the fantasy of the affair including emotional and sexual fantasy of the affair.

Yes, it does, along with guilt and regret. I will say that behavior doesn't totally change for someone else. Most people have to believe they also hurt themselves with your own actions in order for you to really embrace change. Having selfish motivation for changes can be a very effective motivator. Remorse is more a great precipitator for rebuilding your relationship with your partner.

I don't think my mind will change on that 5 years down the road because by saying I didn't enjoy it at the time would be saying I wasn't a "filthy pig" at the time. And, that revisionist history isn't constructive to not continuing the behavior.

Remorse to me is about what I did to my husband.

Same here. I would still have done what I did to my husband had the sex been awful, or had the AP been someone unknown to me previously, or married, or whatever. The facts about the A/AP being different than what they were wouldn’t have changed the effect on my husband.

And, that revisionist history isn't constructive to not continuing the behavior.

Amen.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 3:29 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

My main point is this: remorse will completely change the wayward's perspective of the sex with their AP after they become remorseful because it will be seen in the light of truth. This truth combined with years of remorse and making amends for their terrible behavior can make for an awesome marriage.

Spot on, CreateAccount197. You have said what I have been trying to convey to some very stubborn BH's over many years that this is the truth of the matter. Thank you for putting it so succinctly and clearly.

I didn't read all the responses, in fact, just one. It was hikingout's on the bottom of page 1 and some words popped out at me like "shock" and "RIO", so I read the quote and I have got to say I am so impressed with RIO's, what I would consider, progress in better understanding his WW. Awesome.

Incoming, more truth bombs.

I also want to add that married sex after an affair can also be damn good. It can include an element of spiritual love that did not exist prior to the affair because true reconciliation is a spiritual affair at the deepest level because forgiveness is the deepest kind of love that exists and the combination of remorse and forgiveness can create amazing sex.

And this is simply beautiful, Create. Who says you can't write? You express your thoughts and feelings very well with the written word.

Dear CreateAccount197:

With all due respect I would like to ask you the following:

What sexual things did your rebel wife do with AP and what did she not do with you?

Or do you do everything you did with your AP?

greetings and grateful for your publication

vatoloco

My wife cut back on giving me oral, cum in mouth, swallowing, pretty much cuming anywhere except her vagina and stopped giving me anal as our marriage progressed. We were down to bare bones intercourse before Dday. She gave all of these to her AP.

Besides my wife's affair we were not happily married the last few years. She was an alcoholic who was in the process of going out of control.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 4:13 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

Nice comment. Sisoon's suggestion that a betrayed spouse compete for a wayward was out of line on multiple levels.

Aw come on. It’s common knowledge that the BH should play the “pick me sex dance” for the WW. (Sarcasm)

BTW if I have to compete in the sexual marketplace, it will be for a younger, better looking person. Who hasn’t cheated on me. Believe it or not there are people out there who are sexually giving and.....wait for it.....monogamous.

[This message edited by ramius at 4:06 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

SisterMilkshake

Thank you. I think you found my two best quotes out of all my babble.

HikingOut

My guess is you will eventually come to believe every thought and feeling you had concerning your affair and your affair partner while you were in the affair was all lies including your assessment that the sex was good while you were in the affair.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 4:07 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

Just curious. How did the affair sex you or your partner had bleed into you sex life after the affair.

My EX wife’s affair had sexual acts that were not part of our normal sex life. While it varied, what she liked best, or so I thought, was when we could take our time and she could set the scene with candles and her dressing up.

With her AP, as they were time pressed it was more of the slam bam variety. It also included much of what you see in the hard core section of a porn site.

What she did bled over. She offered up the acts they did, which I really wanted no part of. If she did anything out of the norm, all I could think of was it was a trick she learned from him, or part of them experimenting. To make matters worse, oral which I loved as she responded to it so well, and was a huge turn on for me, was off the table after I found out I had performed it on her some days when she was with him.

Our sex life turned into more of what she had with him tim with just having sex, and not really making love. It was never satisfying for me, and I’m sure wasn’t for her either

I just wonder if any BS feel the same like that new touch, or squeeze or outfit was done for their AP first. Or if any WS brought new sexual knowledge from the affair back to the marriage. Now that I have had multiple partners since the divorce, I have leaned some new tricks.

Just wondering

Darkness falls I agree doesnt matter how good or bad or who ap is it's the same affect on bs. BUT how you feel about BS and A post dday can probably change how you think feel or recall the affair. I guess that's the point I was making with you. I'd imagine if you loved your husband and wanted to make it work with him youd probably be more upset with what you did and recall it less positively even if at the time it was good.

I think in my ws case it was sex. It got him there most of he time. It was a means to an end hes an intense person and a typical love bomber with his energetic nature. He spent very little time with AP and even less grooming the relationship it started entirely casual with months between events I think it was seen and used as a high and break from the norm. Ego boost. It wasnt a high dependency thing which if sex was amazing it would have been. I'm absolutely sure the risk was the rush. And build up was the rush. He said the event was always wham bam thank you mam not without awkwardness but it got him off mostly and made him feel good but not good enough to shrug the guilt after. Which kept him away for months until he had managed to bury and compartmentalise the guilt and convince himself the event might be better and live up to the build up and risk again. I think he did it because he could and never thought he would get caught and felt he could do it with zero negative impact. He was wrong it impacted him mainly. Then eventually us and he confessed. By which time ap was leaning more heavily and more emotional involvement he felt the need to escape more with our marriage falling down and me clueless as to why. And he started confiding in her as he shut down to me. He would spend longer there. Maybe 2 hrs at most but still weeks between visits it became a crutch and was less about the sex or ego and more about spiraling with trying to keep two people happy. Then burying his head. He felt responsible for their situation. And felt the weight of what she wanted and expected. It was easy to give her so he did. Meanwhile we were a much more complicated mess by this point.

So do I think the sex was amazing. Nope. I think the thrill was and ego boost was. Do i think they nurtured it to an intensity we have. Nope. He listed and explained ways it didnt work well for them in the early days. As the emotional bond developed more and frequency had increased it became better. Less or no awkwardness. And funnily enough this coincided with his confession. The thrill and novelty was wearing thin...and it wasnt subsidised with what the physical event was. Without the thrill the risk was no longer worth what the pay out was. So no I dont think they managed to get to that level. But it was not from lack of trying. So in my mind if it was mind blowing or fairly cheap and crap it's the same effect on me. It wasnt for lack of trying or pursuing and hoping it would be amazing.

It was easier for me to regain my own confidence and self assurance physically when I realised and believed the only elevation A had over me was its secrecy and risk. Once that wore off there was no competition. So I can understand why others fear it. It will be different in every situation and I can only really project what I know myself.

waitedwaytoolong

I did not have sex with my wife for 18 months after Dday and did not move back into the same bedroom or normalize our sex life until 3 years after Dday.

At first sex was very painful due to all the mind movies, intrusive thoughts, triggers and variable affair related ED. During this time sex was more like gentle making love and trying not to trigger and freak out during sex.

Eventually sex went back to like when we were first dating and newly weds but it took years and years for that to actually become consistent.

It took me years to get all the sex acts my wife did with her AP out of my brain. She did everything under the sun with him and he ejaculated all over her ( vagina, vulva, stomach, breasts, ass, face ) which is a nightmare for a husband as you know. It took years and years of talking and crying about this with her and a therapist to get move past it all.

She was incredibly remorseful and did everything she could think of to help me heal sexually and have a good time. For example it is a lot easier to get off with a combination blowjob/handjob if the man cant keep a full erection than have intercourse.

Now we have a great sex life that is emotionally better than it has ever been. Physically we are older now so our bodies are not the same as they used to be.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 4:38 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

How did the affair sex you or your partner had bleed into you sex life after the affair.

This is a good one. Anytime my STBX did something new post D-Day I felt like I was going to jump out of my skin. Similar to the triggers I suffer from my childhood sexual abuse (my WS took these personally too). I absolutely could NOT stand being touched in a new way that wasn't my WS's usual touch. It made me feel like I was re-enacting the A for my WS. I felt like I was being molested again It made me sick and anxious.

Tentwinkletoes,

There could be something to what you say. Although, at the time of D-day, the divorce was my BH’s choice, not mine. I was devastated by the effect my cheating had had on him, and not just because he was divorcing me—because I had never anticipated any reaction other than anger—but he was truly hurt on a visceral level. That surprised me—I thought he would (“just”) be furious on a male pride level.

Anyways, I don’t dispute the possibility that our current situation could color my opinion of the past, but I find it unlikely. Because my opinion of the past was the same even when things were very different (better) between H and I.

T/J -

Sisoon's suggestion that a betrayed spouse compete for a wayward was out of line on multiple levels.

I think you need to reread my post, in which I said,

It's not a competition unless you make it one.

My points were that some approaches to getting out of infidelity stem from a competitive framework, but that the BS needs instead to act from his/her own core to seek the best outcome for him/herself.

That's the opposite of competing for the WS.

*****

I, personally, do not see a duality between the WS in and out of the A. It may work for you, but I'm not sure that it would work for everybody.

In particular, I think my W's honesty about liking some of the sex shows remorse. Her refusal to revile her ap is, IMO, healthy - it's part of taking responsibility.

I'm not saying that reviling the ap is unremorseful. I'm saying it's not a required characteristic of remorse.

*****

I also don't see remorse as being for me. IMO, a WS has to change from cheater to good partner for him/herself.

If my W worked to win me back, she's too likely to blame me when doing her work gets tough. If she's doing her work because she wants to change into a good partner, then it's much more likely she'll keep working when life gets tough. And in fact, one of the things that won me back was my W's commitment to heal herself whether I stayed or kicked her out.

Becoming a good partner is definitely a requirement for R, but it's one of several. It's not sufficient for R, IMO.

I did want my W to focus on me in the early days. It didn't work well - the focus she gave wasn't the focus I wanted. What DID help was the changes she made within herself ... even a little less co-d behavior gave me hope for even less as time goes on.

The focus on the BS implies, IMO, that there's some way to give back what the A took away. IMO, that can't be done - what was lost to the A is permanently lost. No number of sex acts or acts of service or whatever can make up for what the BS - or WS - lost, IMO.

I think you misunderstand me, create account. I DO realize what you are saying. But it doesn’t changege that at the time of the A I felt that way. Feelings are not facts, they are actually just things based in thoughts.

Let’s put it this way- I thought I loved him but that love wasn’t based on anything real. It doesn’t change the fact at the time the feelings were still there. Feelings are not facts. There are lots of times we base our feelings on non factual information. Fear based feelings are a good example of this. I think I understand your point of view quite well. But knowing my mindset was unhealthy and untruthful at the time doesn’t change how I acted or what I felt in that state.

I feel disgusted by all of it. But the highs of the affair were there. To say they weren’t minimizes my involvement in it. I never want to be that person again with that same kind of perspective so I can’t excuse myself from being a gleeful sinner at the time. I have to face reality if that’s what I was. Doesn’t make me less remorseful of the behavior, in fact I would say it means I own my actions. It was part of the sin.