SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

the couple that neither decided to divorce nor to reconcile simply develop to continue living together. Every now and then the affair is addressed in an argument: I should have left you when you cheated, and I should have left you for AP sort of solution.

Just for the reference... this is the kind of marriage I have and have had for 14 years now. Think long and hard before you commit to a marriage or relationship like this.

I wish you the best.

Those arguments sound pretty awful, but you wanted some answers. Sorry you didn't get them.

I think the only conversation you need to have with your WW at this point is:

"I'm divorcing you".

Let her spin that into "it's just like watching porn".

Apparition -

I've admittedly stayed off your thread after I read your OP. The reason is bc i could tell that:

1 - She was a serial cheater

2 - I could tell you were set on R

3 - I have zero empathy for serial cheaters so I didn't want my bias to appear in what was surely an "R" thread

I just read everything after post #1, and I felt the need to chime in.

Brother, your wife has taken you for a ride and now she's pissed that that ride has come to an end. What you're seeing now from her: the blameshifting, the deflecting, the minimizing, the continual lieing, the gaslighting and the defiance and frustration... THAT IS THE REAL HER. She did an excellent job of hiding it from you all those years, but rest assured, it has always been the real her. If you have any doubts of that fact, just remember that she did the same thing in her first marriage.

It's time to protect yourself. Separate bank accounts. Do the 180. And file ASAFP.

PROTECT YOURSELF.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 10:32 PM, November 15th (Sunday)]

Just wondering, what will it take for her to do for you to file?

Protect yourself

Apparition

What is it you want?

Three years from now – where do you want to be?

(1) Do you want to be in the same situation as now, but possibly your wife not actively cheating (for the moment)?

(2) Do you want to be in a possibly wholesome marriage with this woman?

(3) Do you want this woman out of your life?

The advice offered will vary according to what you want AND what you can get. We can paint scenarios that can aid you in reaching for what you want. Just keep in mind that the ONLY process you control is divorce, the other two are dependent on you or your WW making serious changes.

Right now, arguing with your wife… well… it’s about as effective as shouting at a wall.

I find her comment about it only being sex and not an affair especially disturbing. It indicates a lack of understanding of the pain and damage caused. I personally have never really grasped how some people can discern between “just sex” affairs and other affairs. IMHO affairs are nearly always about validation and seldom about emotions towards the other person nor the quality of the sex. In fact – by the time the sex can be rated it’s too late.

But arguing with your wife… to me it’s like arguing with an employee you have already given a dozen warnings about being late, sleeping on the job and not meeting deadlines. He might argue that he was tired and that it’s healthy to get 8 hours sleep and that stress is harmful – all theoretically correct – but totally irrelevant to you and your business. At some point you need to see changes in his actions OR terminate him.

I think you are way past that point regarding your wife and you should decide what the future should look like – which one of the three options I started with fit your future.

I usually don’t comment but you had a lie of a marriage and now you’re twisting yourself into a pretzel to save it. So you will be “right” that it was “the best.” Please: it wasn’t. You’re at risk of being a sucker for life. In the words of the song “Let It Go.”

WW: We can’t get anywhere when you’re angry, its okay if you’re hurt, but I need time to heal and being angry over definitions takes a way my right to an opinion.

Okay, I'm not getting what your wife who has cheated on you with multiple partners has to heal for, but this is the perfect segue into my general observations here. Your wife is acting like a victim.. like this is somehow your fault and you deserve to be retaliated against for some reason. I see you are trying to get some idea of her thought process and her mental "calculus" of the affair. Am I right in assuming she thinks YOU watching porn is somehow the catalyst for her behavior? That's a pretty weak line of reasoning if she is also engaged in the same activity. There's definitely a vibe that she's exasperated, or fed up with your line of questions, like "What? You're still talking about this?" Am I reading that right?

When we discuss "repentance" in discussion of reconciliation after an affair, we are not making a religious statement. We are discussing the wayward partner's mental state and dedication to doing what must be done to make their partner (e.g., YOU) feel safe and secure going forward. Talk is cheap. If she actually hasn't done.. anything.. but complain and defend herself in arguments, than how secure are YOU that she's going to be a safe partner for the long haul? This is the rest of your life, man. Is this really what you want? I know, that's rhetorical, obviously. You WANT to trust. You WANT to heal. You WANT to stay married. How convinced are you that you can do those things?

The first step for your wife SHOULD be owning up everything. That means discussing any point you want to bring up. Even if you ask it repeatedly and make her uncomfortable. If she doesn't have the sense she is the one that must make amends here, if she is still trying to hang something on you instead of taking ownership of repeated adultery with different men, then I would respectfully say-- this woman isn't committed to saving your marriage one bit. It's just lip service because she fears change right now. Sadly, that is most authentic emotion I can pick out of this-- she's ashamed and doesn't want to see her world crumble. That's not the same thing as genuine remorse and admitting how badly she hurt you on purpose.

It's all about empathy, Apparition. Is your wife showing even a little bit of empathy right now?

Yes, I’d say my wife shows intermittent compassion and empathy. Her 1st go to is deflection or defensive responses. If I get angry about an inconsistency or about a hurt, like the early “put husband to bed calls” before she left to go on a date and sex with another man, rather than responding to what’s being discussed like, “I see how that would hurt you and it does show premeditation and I’m. sorry.”. She’ll say, “Am I always going to be attacked?”. Later, she may come and say she’s sorry. And to be clear, I am a muscular man and I do understand my ability to be violent with some training, but my anger toward her is condescending and bitter, not throwing anything, not approaching, no physical presence. She cannot be that afraid considering she has struck me repeatedly during this.

The porn was never an issue. When she was out of town we both had long since been open about masturbation with porn, she took her favorite sex toy to self pleasure. It never interfered with a robust and active sex life and was never mentioned as a problem. A red herring as far as I can tell, but I’m open to any relevance.

Its worth noting that despite not needing to work, she had a consulting gig that could take her out of town as frequently or infrequently as she liked. It was always a quality, I always preferred women and people who are capable. So I supported her, everything we have is paid off by my business. No financial worries. In 2018 she was under enormous stress from being a primary caregiver to a difficult and aging parent. Her siblings were fine letting her fall apart under the stress. so she devised this plan to take a gig that took her away alot so her siblings would step up. They did, it worked. I was pleased to make this sacrifice, though lonely and missing her. Little did I know she immediately upon leaving town got the burner phone, joined AM, started an emotional affair, and engaged in a double life. She took advantage of a real world crises and my generosity to betray me. That hurts my soul like a thousand devils torturing me without relief. To be clear, she carried more than her weight with the caregiving and I understand caregivers are highly susceptible to affairs. Not that every stressed caregiver goes full tilt on a quest to screw every man in a state.

My God man. On top of everything she has hit you?

What can anyone say that you already have not thought of. I am so sorry you are going through this.

Apparation,

The best you can do is to get a polygraph, track down all the OM / OW, then expose them all to their SO / BH / BW / society at large.

Then you will have a good story to tell your next GF or W as a warning that you will act if cheated on.

This is unbelievably toxic. You need to get out. You will be able to think coherently once you are free of the mess you are in.

So your wife had 2 years of picking up and screwing many different guys? And she went and got a job that let her escape her responsibilities as a caregiver and wife yet you don’t seem to get the connection.

She apparently wanted an escape so she got away from you and her family. Went and got a burner phone and decided to go screw other dudes. She no longer wanted to be your wife and wanted an exciting life without you. But since you are her meal ticket....

The heading on your post said you had a perfect marriage. I guess it was a perfect marriage for her:

- She didn’t have to work but could work to leave for other men

- Sleep with many men no consequences.

- She evidently physically assaults you

I can understand why she wants to stay with you. But I don’t understand why you want to be with her. It sounds like you were in an abusive marriage.

You may want to dive in deeper and figure out why she took a job to get away from you and bang other guys. Also that may explain why she wants to be with you since you are her meal ticket.

Pretty clear she left your marriage to sleep with others. Sorry you are going through this.

I think your last post was maybe meant to defend her?

It didn't work. Its even worse now from the outside looking in.

Sorry for your pain brother.

Let it sink in, that she is an entitled, psychopathic, narcissist.

It’s all about her and her wants. Her attitude about you is: “how dare you question, my attitudes and behaviour.”

I’m afraid you are flogging a dead horse.

She is an unsafe partner. Get the entire panel of STD’s done, and get a repeat test in 6 months.

Sadly, some people are bad seed/rotten to the core.

Take care and eat, drink and exercise regularly.

Cheers

Ron

A wife who loves to manipulate the situation. Sorry if that offends.

But brother how are you doing? I mean really doing? Talk and vent. But I feel she isn’t that loving wife you married. She needs to stop this bull shit and start helping you heal. Again remorse but for manipulation.

One day at a time.

Me: How did you justify to yourself what you did, fo you think the extreme porn you watched was involved?

WW: You watched porn.

Blame shifting.

Me: You did a lot of pre-meditated actions, like getting a burner phone, what were you thinking as you went about this preparation?

WW: Why am I always the one thats the bad person, do I have to live accused forever?

Blame shifting, rug sweeping

Me: The days before you met the “friend” long term affair to condensate your affair, you seemed like you were on drugs and didn’t care if you got caught, unlike the AM sex encounters that you covered perfectly. What was different about that affair?

WW: It wasn’t an affair, it was just sex, like porn watching which we both did.

Minimizing, gaslighting

Me: (angry) We’re weeks in and you don’t get that an affair is secrets and lies? (my anger is not red faced throwing things, never personally insulting, and never threatening- it is stern and often condescending). I say if everything is defined as a car, nothing is a car.

WW: We can’t get anywhere when you’re angry, its okay if you’re hurt, but I need time to heal and being angry over definitions takes a way my right to an opinion.

This one is all kind of bad behavior wrapped into one.

“Can’t you see? Just because I have sex with someone else, which is not an affair, doesn’t give you the right to ignore my opinion! I feel hurt too! Don’t you know how difficult it is for me to have an A (which is not an A)?

I need to be heard! Me me me me!!!”

If you attempt to R with a WS that minimizes, gas light, rug sweep, and is basically un empathic, you will stay in Infidelity, and keep on hurting.

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 5:33 AM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

Lot of suggestions on what you should do.

Haven't heard clearly what you WANT.

Yes, I’d say my wife shows intermittent compassion and empathy.

I would be shocked if there wasn't a glimmer of this behavior from time to time. Nobody is perfectly bad or good, we're all very human and flawed creatures. I guess what I mean by empathy is a sense of the bigger picture and at least a sense of the extreme hurt she caused and the damage done to your marriage. What you had (as I and others have said) is gone. It's not every going to be the same any more. We're all different people but if I had a hand in destroying my marriage.. if I KNEW there was no coming out of this the way it used to be, I'd feel pretty awful about that.

Her 1st go to is deflection or defensive responses. If I get angry about an inconsistency or about a hurt, like the early “put husband to bed calls” before she left to go on a date and sex with another man,

Okay, so maybe I missed that and need to reread your threads.. she texted someone about Putting you to bed so she could exit the dwelling, drive off and sleep with them? Like she was complaining about it being a chore? Wow. Yeah, man, I'm definitely feeling empathy towards your point of view. It would be like suddenly discovering you're married to an alien in human form.

rather than responding to what’s being discussed like, “I see how that would hurt you and it does show premeditation and I’m. sorry.”.

That's the part that is the most understandable in your response. Nobody who cheats wants to own up that it was their idea, their agency, that destroyed everything. There has to be another reason so they don't look like the bad person. "My partner didn't pay attention to me" "my life was boring" "I wanted attention and didn't get it" "he was so controlling!" that kind of thing. One of the classic excuses is always "It just happened" or "It was all a big mistake".. you want her to say "YES.. I did this thing, I planned this thing, because I wanted to do it and it felt good-- I didn't care about your feelings at the time".. but she isn't at the point where she can say that to you. She says it's shame, and it might be.. but let's face it, she wasn't that ashamed to do these things, just short while ago. It looks more like irritation to me.

She’ll say, “Am I always going to be attacked?”.

Respectfully, wanting to know everything that has happened in the last two years isn't attacking anyone, it's being informed so that you can make decisions about your future with as much knowledge as possible. If she wants to be part of that future, she might want to get on board with realizing this won't be healed overnight.

She cannot be that afraid considering she has struck me repeatedly during this.

Seriously, this is where you draw the line. I am all in favor with discussing things rationally and you have every right to be angry and upset about her adultery (yes, it wasn't just sex, it was adultery). She has no right to physically assault you or even threaten such. DO be concerned. Let her know that if she lays a finger on you again, you will consider it assault. Start recording these conversations. A spouse that will physically attack you is perfectly capable of cooking up a false domestic violence charge. Please protect yourself. This is serious.

I have told you, earlier, that I wouldn't presume to advise what you need to do next vis Divorce or Reconciliation. I WILL say there is a lot to do to reconcile-- I'm not seeing a lot to work with here based on your responses. I also know what I would do in similar circumstances, but that's irrelevant. What do you want, here? What's the end result? Are you optimistic you will get there?

Going to focus on responding to KingofNothing since his response encapsulates some of the other questions and hits home with his understanding the state of my chaos.

..she texted someone about Putting you to bed so she could exit the dwelling, drive off and sleep with them?

What was happening here is when my WW was out of town there was a time difference making it later for me at home. On nights se was committing adulatory, I failed to notice she was calling earlier and talking to me for a little extended time in order to "put husband to bed" so I wouldn't call during her night out. It was successful, she even said before I discovered this that, "I didn't even care to even call and interrupt her during her "encounters"." It has such a planned manipulation and is so premeditated in it's execution that I feel particularly foolish for not having noticed.

"If she wants to be part of that future, she might want to get on board with realizing this won't be healed overnight."

We had a particularly harsh fight last night. I opened up that I didn't feel safe talking to her, because when I did expose something that hurt me she would then make it about herself. WW response to this, "I don't feel safe". She did the exact thing I was having an issue, which shows me she isn't listening, she is simply rebutting whatever I say. How can someone hear the problem and respond by exactly duplicating the behavior?

What do you want, here? What's the end result? Are you optimistic you will get there?

I'll lead with I am not optimistic. I want to understand what she's done: completely. I want to understand where I failed to keep myself safe, where I sacrificed and got taken advantage, where I was foolish and gullible, and what my actual position in the marriage was. I thought in measure I lead the marriage, I had her back, and I was an equal partner. And I want to correct my failings, because the more I look and understand, the more I listen to her, the more I understand I did not know her and I too often yielded my wants and needs to her. Compromise is necessary in a healthy marriage, but was it mutual compromise or did I allow her to take advantage of me? So far the answer is yes, my having her back and supporting her was USED and not appreciated or reciprocated.

What I've learned is its too early for me to make any decisions or know the end result. I am doing portions of 180. We have committed to affairrecovery EMS and then bootcamp. And I'm not letting a counselor manipulate me into ceding to my WW's needs and wants. I will not rub sweep. I'm setting expectations, but giving myself time to do so.

Otherwise, I am taking much of the advise hear to protect myself.

[This message edited by Apparition at 1:57 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

It has such a planned manipulation and is so premeditated in it's execution that I feel particularly foolish for not having noticed.

This is exactly why you should be so cautious. She’s a master manipulator and is manipulating you even now.

As for her “I don’t feel safe” this is gaslighting DARVO at its finest. Start recognizing DARVO.

DARVO is a really bad sign of someone who lacks remorse.

We have committed to affairrecovery EMS and then bootcamp.

Curious why you would commit to anything of the kind with a serial cheater who lacks remorse or empathy for you?

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:50 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]