SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Speaking as a caregiver of many years to a parent that is dying of stage four cancer RIGHT now, like in a couple weeks or so, we are finally at the end...the ONLY thing I want to do is sleep. And have this huge crushing stone of worry, sympathy, and despair OFF my chest.

Who the ever loving hell has the energy, emotional resources and time to have an affair during this??? Bloody Hell.

Curious why you would commit to anything of the kind with a serial cheater who lacks remorse or empathy for you?

I'm only committing to doing those programs, not to R. I investigated the affairrecovery programs to make sure that the betrayed spouse isn't made to set a low bar or make all the sacrifices. Our current therapist is more interested in "save the marriage" at all costs. Those costs being born by ME. But, if you look at the affairrecovery program it involves the unfaithful spouse doing all the things everyone in here says my WW should be doing. We'll see and I'll report back as to if I think it does as advertised. They have videos on Youtube which gives a good idea of their attitude. If my WW had followed their list of things she should do, I'd be in a completely different place. As it is, I'm thinking more each day of D. She'd certainly be further along in accepting responsibility if she was following their advice - advice I showed her almost in the first few days. Am I pinning some hopes in the program? Yes. Do I think ultimately it's my WW's responsibility to actually do as they suggest? Yes. Is my love enough? No.

Who the ever loving hell has the energy, emotional resources and time to have an affair during this??? Bloody Hell.

What I'd read was that caregivers are especially susceptible to affairs for a variety of reasons, the pressure on them can make a person break in the areas they are weakest: prone to alcoholism, prone to anxiety disorder, prone to infidelity/sex addiction, boom. Now it doesn't mean people do crack and it's not an excuse - as my WW used it when I brought it up. It's just some psychology that I thought was interesting and could have been a piece of the puzzle.

At the end of the day, she did years of stressful caregiving (I did help a lot as well). Then she left for long stretches of time and siblings stepped up as anticipated. In my ignorance, I thought I was supporting my wife in getting much needed help and getting a breather. Little did I know upon leaving, she immediately started on AM and a long term emotional affair. She did use her need for a break from caregiving as cover to prolong her assignment out of town so she could conduct her adulatory at low risk of being caught.

My heart goes out to you NorthernMSB, I believe angels walk among us when it comes to family caregivers. It's one of the greatest sacrifices a person can make, time, energy, and soul is given. Big hug.

Apparition:

You seem like a good man and faithful BH who deserves better. You have your head on straight and have set a course. At this point your WW is not forthcoming or demonstrating remorse or empathy sufficient to rebuild your M. That’s just IMO. But I will not advise to stop course. You know your own mind. But as you await going through these programs or counseling do not subject yourself to the blameshifting or gaslighting. It is subjecting yourself to needless pain. She is not remorseful. Read and implement the 180. Detach from her so you can heal. Take care of you. You can stop your plan at any point if you just get fed up and file for D. You have support here. Good luck.

Well said apparation

As a clarification, WW had an affair in her 1st marriage. But he was unaware, the marriage ended for other reasons. I was only recently made aware when she admitted infidelity in every long term relationship.

No hope for any R with this women. She is a SC, I would just emotionally detach yourself from her. Do the 180.

Separate bedrooms.

Bury yourself in your work.

The house is already burning down it is just time for you to get out and save yourself from the fire and smoke.

Wow, sorry for your situation. You indicated previously that she could have been with dozens of men while married to you. I think your desire to place much of the blame on her caregiving activities is unrealistic. You really do love this woman even after what she has done. I certainly have no right to try and talk you out of your course of action. But, if you stay with her, it is extremely likely she will continue to cheat. Being a BS, I can't imagine putting myself in that position. But I am not you and at the point in my marriage when my ex-wife had her exit affair, I felt nothing but contempt for her. Good luck to you. I hope your bet pays off.

I idealized my situation too. It's hard to see that dream go. The heart hangs on way thing to return to the happy times. I moved out and while I still talk with my WS, we do not discuss the future or infidelity. He is not going to disclose anything I don't have proof of. I am making my own life apart. It's a good life. I feel a peace. I don't want to be worried or spy on my partner. He can choose his path freely. No need to lie or hide.

I encourage you to go toward stress reduction and health. See what she's willing to do. Don't worry about love. You can love and leave a bad situation. I love my WS.

You need time and quiet to find your way. No need to argue. Stop listening to nonsense and manipulations. That's over forever.

You're a good person and will remain so.

Apparition, I'm not going to give you advice as to your WW. Others here have more patience than me.

What I would ask is have you had a full range of STD tests performed? Remember that not all STD tests are comprehensive. Make sure that on top of the usual bugs you also get tested for HPV. You may need to go a couple months and then take the tests again. I was going every month for my screenings and now I'm down to every three months.

My STBXWW is a bicycle just like yours is, and I am simply astonished that she never picked up some nasty crud from one of her dozen or more partners.

Apparition,

Westway wrote, you also get tested for HPV

I would like to add to what Westway wrote, that you have to monitor your mucus membranes mouth/throat/penis/anus for the rest o your life for any bump, pain or abnormality of any kind.

My sister in law whos' husband went to cathouses in the 90s and 2000s recently developed pre-cancerous cells in her throat. This is years possibly decades after he stopped going, assuming he did.

Just feeling sorry for you my friend. You don't deserve this.

The best way to recovery is to cut the cancer out of your system. Your WW is a selfish women. Now is the time to be selfish for your own (your physical & mental health), your kids.

Our current therapist is more interested in "save the marriage" at all costs.

Apparition

Your marriage councilor is doing their job. It’s in their name. They are generalist that try to improve the marriage. When infidelity is involved the most efficient way to improve the marriage is for the betrayed spouse to get over it.

You and your wife need individual counseling first.

The major problem is that someone who embraces the lifestyle to that degree obviously sees nothing wrong with it.

It’s hard to make someone feel guilty about doing something they consider fine. It’s even harder for them to give up the pleasurable habit when there is nothing wrong with it unless people find out.

Michigan

Don’t make things more complicated than they need to be. The above explains all of your wife’s responses.

I want to understand where I failed to keep myself safe, where I sacrificed and got taken advantage, where I was foolish and gullible, and what my actual position in the marriage was. I thought in measure I lead the marriage, I had her back, and I was an equal partner. And I want to correct my failings, because the more I look and understand, the more I listen to her, the more I understand I did not know her and I too often yielded my wants and needs to her. Compromise is necessary in a healthy marriage, but was it mutual compromise or did I allow her to take advantage of me? So far the answer is yes, my having her back and supporting her was USED and not appreciated or reciprocated.

Get into IC. Cancel MC. It's a waste of time and money if your MC is pushing for you to R at all costs. Pick up a copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and see if it applies to you. Research how to set boundaries.

What I've learned is its too early for me to make any decisions or know the end result. I am doing portions of 180.

If your WW was your garden variety cheater who was starting to show some remorse and accountability, I would agree with you. But intermittent "sorrys" between outbursts of emotional and physical abuse IS NOT remorse or anything even close to remorse. Regret, maybe, but abusive spouses apologize all the time and then feel free to berate and hit you again the next day.

This is a highly toxic situation for you to be in. This is damaging to your children whether they witness it or not. You will be shocked by how much they hear and see that you thought you were successfully keeping quiet about. ANY spouse hitting their partner while under the same roof as their children is an immediate threat to their wellbeing. If she hits you again, you are either separating immediately with the kids or you are calling the police. Please confirm that you have read this and understand the severity of the situation and know that it DOES NOT matter if she actually hurts you or not. Even if your children simply hear a physical altercation, they are scared and traumatized. If she can't stop herself from hitting you, she isn't allowed to be near you until she can control herself.

We have committed to affairrecovery EMS and then bootcamp. And I'm not letting a counselor manipulate me into ceding to my WW's needs and wants. I will not rub sweep. I'm setting expectations, but giving myself time to do so.

We have committed to affairrecovery EMS and then bootcamp. And I'm not letting a counselor manipulate me into ceding to my WW's needs and wants.

Why are you paying your MC then? You might as well be throwing that money into a fire for all the good it's doing you. Stop MC IMMEDIATELY and better yet, tell them it's in part because your WW has resorted to getting physical with you. Show them that they are currently aiding and enabling physical abuse by siding with your WW and making her believe she is entitled to those wants and needs over your physical and emotional safety. That MC needs a wake up call to the damage they are doing to you and the marriage.

I'm setting expectations, but giving myself time to do so.

Then why are you rugsweeping her hitting you? Why isn't her keeping her hands to herself when angry not an expectation? And if it is, why are you failing to withdraw yourself from situation in which she turns violent?

[This message edited by nekonamida at 2:41 PM, November 18th (Wednesday)]

Why are you paying your MC then?

The money isn't really enough to be significant, small copay. But the real question for me is it helping me? And right now I'd say not really. Some small benefits, but overall the MC's manipulation of me to serve to goal of "save the major" is not welcome. It was mentioned that of course marriage counselors focus on the marriage and not the betrayed spouse, so its to be expected. It's why I like the affairrecovery program as it focuses on the unfaithful spouses action, accountability, and change. As to if that is enough or if there is a possibility for R, I just cannot say. The reason I'm doing it is because my marriage has many good memories, I do love my WW even still, and my wife is making promises to improve the way she is acting now. I can't say she'll succeed and I can't say that if she succeeds and is the perfect affair recovery partner that I'll make a choice to R. I'm just leaving that door open.

Then why are you rugsweeping her hitting you? Why isn't her keeping her hands to herself when angry not an expectation? And if it is, why are you failing to withdraw yourself from situation in which she turns violent?

True, I have rugswept her hitting me. My excuse is she is unable to hurt me, her hitting me results in her hurting her own hands and wrists. I need do nothing but stand and she is the one physically hurt. There is an emotional impact on me, like, what gives her the right to that sort of anger? It clearly shows not just a lack of remorse, but also resentment and blaming of me. Should I withdrawal myself? The greatest danger is she assaults me, but blames me for any accidental harm that comes to her. I'm acutely aware of this and don't have an answer. I think the real question, is given the type of betrayal, the length of time, the premeditation, and the very low level of empathy and compassion toward me now that her actions are exposed, why do I not say enough is enough? All I can say is I was happy with her and my marriage, not just happy, but I did believe I was among the luckiest men alive and I was fully satisfied sexually and emotionally. How much is that reality? I also don't know yet. But I am asking the questions.

Also, I'm reading "Not Just Friends" and other books that orient around me and not my WW. Another way of incorporating 180 into my thinking. But it feels like a massive ship to turn, to take all my love, all my beliefs about my life, and suddenly see something else. I have to take small bites.

I do appreciate everyone here SO MUCH. Even if it doesn't seem like "I get it", I hope everyone knows I'm reading, sometimes reading three or four times. And sometimes it takes days before I see the wisdom. I feel as if I'm attention seeking here, and maybe I am. That feels like a bad thing, like I'm doing something wrong. I have never sought attention for my problems.

Not all MCs focus on the M. Our MC, who was and remained my W's IC and whom we saw on d-day, started with how and what I was thinking and feeling and wanting. Among other things, she insisted on honesty from my W from the very beginning. And until I committed to R, she helped me figure out what I wanted.

IOW, there are good MCs. There's no need to force yourself to stick with an MC who is trying to force you into a mold that doesn't fit. An incompetent MC is likely to be worse than no MC.

After all, your M didn't fail - your W did.

*****

You mention your W's anger towards you. This is just a comment to remind you that your W may be angry at you, or she may be angry at her image of you inside her head.

For example, my W, who is generally considered to be very perceptive, was only 5%-10% right in perceiving when I was angry at her. A lot of her behavior towards me (not the A), was based on her fear that I was angry at her when I wasn't. She built up resentment towards her image, and directed her resentment towards me. That's pretty common human behavior.

*****

I call possible bullshit on your learning to be a better man/H. Your W cheated because of her own issues, not because of an issue with your or your M. You're not perfect, but being perfect might have made her cheat more.

There's very, very little, if anything, that you could have done to prevent the A. It wasn't you. It was/is her.

I might be misreading your comments. If so, just chalk this up to a post that isn't relevant to your actual sitch.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:54 AM, November 19th (Thursday)]

Should I withdrawal myself?

YES. Because:

The greatest danger is she assaults me, but blames me for any accidental harm that comes to her.

What's to stop her from calling the police and saying you assaulted her and her sprained wrist/bruised hands are proof? If she's angry and resentful enough to try and physically hurt you, no one really knows just how far she will go especially when getting physical is not working for her. But even if she doesn't tell the police, what's to stop her from running to friends and family the next day and showing them any damage as proof of your abuse? I've seen multiple WWs in my time here do this. My stepmother attempted to do this to my father after he grabbed her wrists to stop her from wailing on him repeatedly. She tried to get my grandmother to believe he was hitting her and luckily she didn't buy into it. Point is - there's no telling how far she may go with this given I doubt you believed her to be the type to do any of this - the cheating, the bitter arguments, and the attacks. Whoever you have in front of you today is not the woman you married.

There's nothing stopping you from going to her right now and telling her that her hitting you is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Ask her to promise that she will never raise a hand to you again and inform her that you will be separating and staying elsewhere if it happens. Ideally, you should also inform family and friends of the separation and why so that she experiences some accountability and a consequence for her abusive behavior. Standing up for yourself in this way is something you can easily commit to without any thought of R or D. Obviously, if she does it again, it makes the path forward more clear but it does give her an opportunity to get it together and get on board with R if she's capable of it.

I do want to say - it's good that you're asking yourself these questions even if you don't have the answers. They need to be asked. It's very rare that a spouse with abusive tendencies just wakes up and decides to misbehave one day. There's likely all sorts of little red flags over the years that you brushed off as "not that bad". Maybe she was selfish on occasion. Maybe she called you a bad name, was overly unreasonable, or was unsupportive during a crucial time for you and yet you made excuses for her because normally she is a good wife. Usually when we're honest with ourselves, when we take the WS off of their pedestal, we can look back and see times when they weren't the perfect spouse.

The more you tell us of your situation the less and less ideal your marriage looks and the worse and worse it looks.

It looks as if you are a really good man who has been subjecting himself to a lot of abuse and mistreatment and tolerating a serial cheater in the name of an ideal you are holding on to. Just my observation.

Even now you’re telling us about fond memories about what a great marriage you had, yet both you and we now know during that time your WW was acting as a single woman and there was and is a gaping intimacy wound at the heart of your marriage.

Books and online courseware aren’t going to fix that. This isn’t a “not just friends” situation. It’s a Proverbs 30:20 situation with a narcissistic self regarding promiscuous woman who has already done this to at least one other man before you.

It’s her WHOLE ADULT LIFE.

I’m not saying this to be deliberately cruel just to be real.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:13 AM, November 20th (Friday)]

Give serious thought to

Power

Control

Manipulation

Abuse

Also, I'm reading "Not Just Friends" and other books that orient around me

You might want to What Makes Love Last?: How to Build Trust and Avoid Betrayal by John Gottman Ph.D. and Nan Silver to your list. The book has a useful list of counseling approaches to avoid when dealing with infidelity including: "The real goal is to save the marriage at all costs."

If you think there is any chance to save your marriage, stop with the counselor you have and find one trained by the Gottman Institute.

While most of us look at what your WW had done and think Run..very fast...very far... I can also understand the complete 360 your mind is going through. One moment thinking you have the best of marriages and the next finding out the amount of betrayal. It's a hard switch to flip.

Anyway, I understand how it may take some time to realize you are never going to get the version of the marriage you thought you had back...

One of my concerns is that I still don't think you are getting the whole truth. For example she said something like... she cheated during her last marriage but that wasn't why they divorced. You do know that every Wayward spouse says this. It's gaslighting - it's blameshifting... It's a way of saying -- yea I cheated but... He was the problem...

She cheated because of the extreem stress of being a caregiver? I"m not saying it wasn't difficult but I'm wondering if there were other "stresses" that happened during the marriage. It seems like hooking up with strangers was her way of copeing. I'd want a poly to find out if this was true.

If you found out that she was cheating throughout the marriage would it make a difference to you?

If you found out that she was cheating throughout the marriage would it make a difference to you?

Yes.

An extremely bad night last night, but its lead me to a much better place - despite my sleepless night. I am still waiting on the new D-Day. I provided D-Day examples and all sorts of D-Day plans constructed by professionals, it was a lot of material. But last night I did provide a more stream lined list straight off internet as my 1st list was me in a completely "mental state” during acid drip revelations. WW has had a “Its complicated and you asked too many questions.”. this has grown thin as I wait in agony each day. I’d deduced the burner phone was kept much longer and in-town vs just left at her consulting office out of town. This opened up all new worlds of hurt and confusion. New types of betrayal and exploitation of me. She says it was going to come out in new disclosure. Maybe. Her track record isn’t good.

I eventually flooded. She was not compassionate. After about a half hour of my relentless demands for honesty and inconsistencies in the last week, her answer was “it’ll come out in d-day. Again perhaps, regardless, my tough questioning of her had her throw up her hands and she began to pack and told me she understood this meant divorce. I went ape, broke a few picture frames against the wall. I broke things. I never approached threatening. I reclaimed my calm. Got the room put back together, got her bags packed again as she had them. During this she went to bed. I let her know it was all back together and she could leave as she intended if that was her choice - no more hysteria from me.

Sleepless night, but I realized (help from 180) that all I needed to do was tell her I would not initiate any more affair discussions. She could initiate when she was ready. An amazing calm has come over me. I’ve been working and doing enjoyable things for me. The peace is I get to JUST watch. Its on her. She can choose to help me heal with compassion, save our marriage by good trustworthy behavior & transparency, lead us in recovery plan, overcome her shame, provide a 1st step full disclosure, etc. She will or she won’t. Then I know all I need to know. This is my 1st real bit of peace in three weeks. I carved out some sanity. This feels like a legit turning point for me. I need not convince her of anything now.

[This message edited by Apparition at 11:29 AM, November 21st (Saturday)]